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On March 08 2011 10:08 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 09:36 letian wrote:
I wish JD went 4 pool this time, but he still wants to prove something challenging Flash macro and game sense. Why do never learn JD? why? Because he wants to try to beat flash straight up instead of only with all-in cheese? how is that bad?? JD is one of the best ZvT players ever, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to just cheese his games against flash.
Jaedong is one of those players you'll watch and facepam time and time again. Then he wins, and it's exciting.
Numerous times in ZvT, jaedong has lost to sea, flash, and light by being too stubborn. He doesn't seem to want to win as much as he does to prove that he can use what ever HE wants to win.
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On March 08 2011 11:14 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 10:08 moopie wrote:On March 08 2011 09:36 letian wrote:
I wish JD went 4 pool this time, but he still wants to prove something challenging Flash macro and game sense. Why do never learn JD? why? Because he wants to try to beat flash straight up instead of only with all-in cheese? how is that bad?? JD is one of the best ZvT players ever, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to just cheese his games against flash. Jaedong is one of those players you'll watch and facepam time and time again. Then he wins, and it's exciting. Numerous times in ZvT, jaedong has lost to sea, flash, and light by being too stubborn. He doesn't seem to want to win as much as he does to prove that he can use what ever HE wants to win.
No. Jaedong chooses the strategy he thinks will win. Jaedong's general strategy of lurkers was fine, his play just wasn't good enough. Stop looking into things too much.
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On March 08 2011 11:13 Fishmalk wrote:
Jaedong continues to show us he shouldn't bother trying when his opponent is a half-decent terran. what are you talking about :/
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I think the lesson here is that a good player makes himself look good when he plays, but a great player makes his opponent look bad. Flash is an absolute beast and saying that JD sucks or Z is UP is a total insult to the level of skill that Flash has.
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Ugh, my head hurts from all the shitty posts in this thread.
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On March 08 2011 13:36 Dental Floss wrote:
I think the lesson here is that a good player makes himself look good when he plays, but a great player makes his opponent look bad. Flash is an absolute beast and saying that JD sucks or Z is UP is a total insult to the level of skill that Flash has.
I'll have to agree. Although Jaedong lost to Flash, he can still beat many other players, so he is definitely not in a slump. Common? losing to Flash is normal and is somewhat expected.
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Seriously what wrong with this team, If JD isn't playing well the other are like so good but if he is playing good the others just lose
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On March 08 2011 13:36 Dental Floss wrote:
I think the lesson here is that a good player makes himself look good when he plays, but a great player makes his opponent look bad. Flash is an absolute beast and saying that JD sucks or Z is UP is a total insult to the level of skill that Flash has.
Although Jaedong does suck against flash. Jaedong might be the best Zerg vs Terran but not the best Zerg vs Flash. He expects to lose against Flash and plays accordingly. Calm, Zero better than Jaedong vs Flash and last year Effort was better vs Flash yet Jaedong is the best zerg overall.
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On March 08 2011 12:18 crazeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 11:14 Release wrote:On March 08 2011 10:08 moopie wrote:On March 08 2011 09:36 letian wrote:
I wish JD went 4 pool this time, but he still wants to prove something challenging Flash macro and game sense. Why do never learn JD? why? Because he wants to try to beat flash straight up instead of only with all-in cheese? how is that bad?? JD is one of the best ZvT players ever, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to just cheese his games against flash. Jaedong is one of those players you'll watch and facepam time and time again. Then he wins, and it's exciting. Numerous times in ZvT, jaedong has lost to sea, flash, and light by being too stubborn. He doesn't seem to want to win as much as he does to prove that he can use what ever HE wants to win. No. Jaedong chooses the strategy he thinks will win. Jaedong's general strategy of lurkers was fine, his play just wasn't good enough. Stop looking into things too much.
Perhaps he was referring to how JD insisted on a runby of lurkers instead of a contain. I agree his early lurk strat was fine.
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On March 08 2011 12:18 crazeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 11:14 Release wrote:On March 08 2011 10:08 moopie wrote:On March 08 2011 09:36 letian wrote:
I wish JD went 4 pool this time, but he still wants to prove something challenging Flash macro and game sense. Why do never learn JD? why? Because he wants to try to beat flash straight up instead of only with all-in cheese? how is that bad?? JD is one of the best ZvT players ever, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to just cheese his games against flash. Jaedong is one of those players you'll watch and facepam time and time again. Then he wins, and it's exciting. Numerous times in ZvT, jaedong has lost to sea, flash, and light by being too stubborn. He doesn't seem to want to win as much as he does to prove that he can use what ever HE wants to win. No. Jaedong chooses the strategy he thinks will win. Jaedong's general strategy of lurkers was fine, his play just wasn't good enough. Stop looking into things too much.
yeah, sad truth about all that, is that JD still makes mistakes, being second best, his games are really remarkable, but Flash is like completely on another level, he seems to be prepared and counters perfectly, how can that be? I don't know, the only player who seemed quite resistant to Flash play style was Effi, (or was it just several lucky games?) I wish he stayed in BW.
The thing is whenever JD plays FLash today, he doesn't stick to his ordinary game plan, he just makes impossible builds that just show how he really wants to win, but still fails. I think JD should stop this and play his usual self, I believe he is one of the few zerg players, who is capable of taking Flash out with pure skill. In fact I think his mechanics anf micro is better than Flash's. But I will not argue if anyone desagrees.
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On March 08 2011 23:35 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 12:18 crazeh wrote:On March 08 2011 11:14 Release wrote:On March 08 2011 10:08 moopie wrote:On March 08 2011 09:36 letian wrote:
I wish JD went 4 pool this time, but he still wants to prove something challenging Flash macro and game sense. Why do never learn JD? why? Because he wants to try to beat flash straight up instead of only with all-in cheese? how is that bad?? JD is one of the best ZvT players ever, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to just cheese his games against flash. Jaedong is one of those players you'll watch and facepam time and time again. Then he wins, and it's exciting. Numerous times in ZvT, jaedong has lost to sea, flash, and light by being too stubborn. He doesn't seem to want to win as much as he does to prove that he can use what ever HE wants to win. No. Jaedong chooses the strategy he thinks will win. Jaedong's general strategy of lurkers was fine, his play just wasn't good enough. Stop looking into things too much. yeah, sad truth about all that, is that JD still makes mistakes, being second best, his games are really remarkable, but Flash is like completely on another level, he seems to be prepared and counters perfectly, how can that be? I don't know, the only player who seemed quite resistant to Flash play style was Effi, (or was it just several lucky games?) I wish he stayed in BW. The thing is whenever JD plays FLash today, he doesn't stick to his ordinary game plan, he just makes impossible builds that just show how he really wants to win, but still fails. I think JD should stop this and play his usual self, I believe he is one of the few zerg players, who is capable of taking Flash out with pure skill. In fact I think his mechanics anf micro is better than Flash's. But I will not argue if anyone desagrees.
Effort won vs Flash because of mind games. Flash lost it because he was stubborn. The first 2 games Flash raped Effort. I think Flash learned his lessons of this OSL final.
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United States11393 Posts
On March 08 2011 23:35 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 12:18 crazeh wrote:On March 08 2011 11:14 Release wrote:On March 08 2011 10:08 moopie wrote:On March 08 2011 09:36 letian wrote:
I wish JD went 4 pool this time, but he still wants to prove something challenging Flash macro and game sense. Why do never learn JD? why? Because he wants to try to beat flash straight up instead of only with all-in cheese? how is that bad?? JD is one of the best ZvT players ever, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to just cheese his games against flash. Jaedong is one of those players you'll watch and facepam time and time again. Then he wins, and it's exciting. Numerous times in ZvT, jaedong has lost to sea, flash, and light by being too stubborn. He doesn't seem to want to win as much as he does to prove that he can use what ever HE wants to win. No. Jaedong chooses the strategy he thinks will win. Jaedong's general strategy of lurkers was fine, his play just wasn't good enough. Stop looking into things too much. yeah, sad truth about all that, is that JD still makes mistakes, being second best, his games are really remarkable, but Flash is like completely on another level, he seems to be prepared and counters perfectly, how can that be? I don't know, the only player who seemed quite resistant to Flash play style was Effi, (or was it just several lucky games?) I wish he stayed in BW. The thing is whenever JD plays FLash today, he doesn't stick to his ordinary game plan, he just makes impossible builds that just show how he really wants to win, but still fails. I think JD should stop this and play his usual self, I believe he is one of the few zerg players, who is capable of taking Flash out with pure skill. In fact I think his mechanics anf micro is better than Flash's. But I will not argue if anyone desagrees.
....That wasn't an "impossible build." Flash's micro in whittling down the lurker count and also the "lurker runby" hurt him way more than any "build that is impossible." Don't forget the failed sandwich near his third gas which got wrecked by tanks. Flash also took a pretty big risk in the fast +1 in assuming that JD was just going to keep droning and wouldn't "Dirty Zerg" him. This made his midgame that much stronger.
Maps like Benzene, Polaris, and Match Point ZvT gameflow are dictated where you take third gas. Since JD took top left as third, it meant that he had to play lair based This means that he needs units and some semblance of map control to defend all the potential places that rines can get to. If he tried to tech with that third like standard zvt seen on more typical maps, then Flash would very easily find a hole and it would be over there. (Remember that top left has two entrances, can easily spread self too thin, not enough units etc.) This is even more so true since Flash went 5rax. Going Hive off of 3base would only work if he took 7'oclock as his 3rd gas. (That doesn't make getting a 4th gas any easier though and Terran can easily expand to the minonly and just pump speedvults with mines off 3fac and use all excess gas on Vessels (see Leta vs Zero on Circuit Breaker and imagine how much more effective that it would be vs a zerg stuck to 3gas) and then expand to bott right later.
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jaedong just got unlucky and a bit greedy..
he probably thought that flash was aiming for his typical long-drawn game style so he decided to go 4 bases. but too bad for him flash chose to play really aggressively off 2 base.
gg jaedong. flash is an expert by now when it comes to bo mind games
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On March 09 2011 00:40 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 23:35 letian wrote:On March 08 2011 12:18 crazeh wrote:On March 08 2011 11:14 Release wrote:On March 08 2011 10:08 moopie wrote:On March 08 2011 09:36 letian wrote:
I wish JD went 4 pool this time, but he still wants to prove something challenging Flash macro and game sense. Why do never learn JD? why? Because he wants to try to beat flash straight up instead of only with all-in cheese? how is that bad?? JD is one of the best ZvT players ever, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to just cheese his games against flash. Jaedong is one of those players you'll watch and facepam time and time again. Then he wins, and it's exciting. Numerous times in ZvT, jaedong has lost to sea, flash, and light by being too stubborn. He doesn't seem to want to win as much as he does to prove that he can use what ever HE wants to win. No. Jaedong chooses the strategy he thinks will win. Jaedong's general strategy of lurkers was fine, his play just wasn't good enough. Stop looking into things too much. yeah, sad truth about all that, is that JD still makes mistakes, being second best, his games are really remarkable, but Flash is like completely on another level, he seems to be prepared and counters perfectly, how can that be? I don't know, the only player who seemed quite resistant to Flash play style was Effi, (or was it just several lucky games?) I wish he stayed in BW. The thing is whenever JD plays FLash today, he doesn't stick to his ordinary game plan, he just makes impossible builds that just show how he really wants to win, but still fails. I think JD should stop this and play his usual self, I believe he is one of the few zerg players, who is capable of taking Flash out with pure skill. In fact I think his mechanics anf micro is better than Flash's. But I will not argue if anyone desagrees. ....That wasn't an "impossible build." Flash's micro in whittling down the lurker count and also the "lurker runby" hurt him way more than any "build that is impossible." Don't forget the failed sandwich near his third gas which got wrecked by tanks. Flash also took a pretty big risk in the fast +1 in assuming that JD was just going to keep droning and wouldn't "Dirty Zerg" him. This made his midgame that much stronger. Maps like Benzene, Polaris, and Match Point ZvT gameflow are dictated where you take third gas. Since JD took top left as third, it meant that he had to play lair based This means that he needs units and some semblance of map control to defend all the potential places that rines can get to. If he tried to tech with that third like standard zvt seen on more typical maps, then Flash would very easily find a hole and it would be over there. (Remember that top left has two entrances, can easily spread self too thin, not enough units etc.) This is even more so true since Flash went 5rax. Going Hive off of 3base would only work if he took 7'oclock as his 3rd gas. (That doesn't make getting a 4th gas any easier though and Terran can easily expand to the minonly and just pump speedvults with mines off 3fac and use all excess gas on Vessels (see Leta vs Zero on Circuit Breaker and imagine how much more effective that it would be vs a zerg stuck to 3gas) and then expand to bott right later.
Well I guess I am very far from such deep game understanding as you, so, don't get me wrong, I'm just pulling emotions here. It just always like that, seriously. I just want him to win for a change.
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In conclusion, Flash is just an abnormality in progaming that should be removed. The bar that he has set is too high.
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On March 09 2011 06:09 dukethegold wrote:
In conclusion, Flash is just an abnormality in progaming that should be removed. The bar that he has set is too high.
that's a good conclusion
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...Perfectman? :S Unfortunate predictions. 
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On March 09 2011 06:09 dukethegold wrote:
In conclusion, Flash is just an abnormality in progaming that should be removed. The bar that he has set is too high.
Like Schumacher, he was getting death threats. Because when he drove, it was nearly impossible to beat him. And think about Formula 1 has ridiculously high market. He was killing the competition.
: sorry about 2 days bump, I just had a chance to watch the VOD.
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On March 11 2011 09:00 DAMMERUNG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 06:09 dukethegold wrote:
In conclusion, Flash is just an abnormality in progaming that should be removed. The bar that he has set is too high. Like Schumacher, he was getting death threats. Because when he drove, it was nearly impossible to beat him. And think about Formula 1 has ridiculously high market. He was killing the competition. : sorry about 2 days bump, I just had a chance to watch the VOD.
Schumacher was a god for 5 years, one of the very best for 10 years, and a top contender for about 15 years. Still a long ways to go before Flash reaches Schumacher status.
7 world championships, over 50 grand prix wins. Even Flash can't claim that.
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Yea but Schumacher drove for Ferrari, which basically won the constructor prize every year that he won a championship. Before the rules changed to ensure parity, the Ferrari car was miles ahead of the competition, giving Schumacher a substantial edge. Flash on the other hand is dominating while playing on the exact same terms as his competition.
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EPT
