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On August 29 2010 03:19 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 02:59 SubtleArt wrote:On August 29 2010 01:38 Reggiegigas wrote:
Flash vs Jaedong is, honestly, the most boring matchup in E-Sports.
It's so predictable. The final game being the best example of this. I got this massive sense of deja-vu as I watched it. Simply because I've seen this exact game so many times. I could predict everything. Timings, expansions, movements on the map, everything. And JD played so uninspired. He did nothing special, playing completely into Flash's hands, and basically lost the moment the game started and he built his first drone. At no point was it close. His mutas never got close to Flash's mineral lines. Flash got momentum easily and kept it til he won. JD did nothing but struggle and gg.
I love JD, and it might seem like I'm just an angry, upset JD fan, but hell, I'm mostly just disappointed in him. It wasn't that Flash played well, he played standard. It was that JD played so fucking bad. Sorry but he couldn't do anything BUT play into Flash's hands. Shitty map pool forced him to prepare risky, high econ builds, which Flash was easily able to predict and punish. What else was he supposed to do? Flash is too good to lose to some mass muta BS, and playing safe or standard is pretty much guarenteed to get u killed on every map but FS, especially with the bio --> mech switch thing. Better luck in the OSL jaedong, at least dreamliner actually favors zerg. Also, fuck Odd-Eye. Why is it even in the map pool still? 71% TvZ? On the one hand I agree, the maps forced him to take those risks when he wants to play a macro-game, and Flash exploited that with his timing attacks like the best terran in the world should. But on the other hand, that is what I actually think was Jaedongs fault. 2x Polaris 1x Odd-Eye, at least once in these three games he should have done a 4pool or 9pool. Flashs 14cc was very predictable on these maps (although since Flash always scouts on time on Odd-Eye, at least 9pool isn't viable there, maybe 12pool to at least prevent the 14cc? I don't know enough about the timings if 12pool vs rax expand is better for the zerg than 14cc vs 12hatch. But on Polaris flash played completely blind). In my opinion Jaedong should have approached the series more agressive. He loses the first game most of the time anyway, might aswell 4pool to scare the shit out of Flash, even if it fails.
Exactly. JD played poorly and it seemed like he hadn't prepared well enough imo. He let Flash get away with too much.
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I can't understand why the MSL people wouldn't choose Fighting Spirit as the double map. Surely they should be trying to make the series as fair and balanced as possible.
Now I'm not saying that JD would have definitely won or anything like that but at least the playing field would have been somewhat more level.
Anyway I'm glad it wasn't 3-0. 
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On August 28 2010 23:35 Wings wrote:
Why complain about TvZ map imbalances when you've got Dreamliner in the OSL
3-10 TvZ. That's 23%... how the hell can TvZ be so damn imba if you can get to a damn 23% lolll
Because this isn't the OSL. And even there there is only one map so the terran can thumb it down to ensure it's not played on twice. With PR and Odd-eye 3 it was impossible to thumb down both of them.
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Every time JD losses ir rater Race Imba or Map Imba... For once can you fan boys accept he got out played???
I mean yea Odd Eye is a bad map for zerg but Flash is know for greedy builds why don't take control of the Bo5 and 6pool him or something... Maps matter but only if you don't take advantage of what your oponent is going to do on them...
JD needs to spend some tme with July XD
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On August 29 2010 01:49 Reggiegigas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 01:41 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Rofl come on, you "predicted" Flash's build order? If you can make BOs that good then why aren't you an esports coach, man?. Flash didn't play standard a single game. I can predict it because I've seen this game so many times. On this map, too. Zerg gets 2-3 expansions, Flash sits on his nat, builds a bunch of turrets, builds up and moves out and rolls over the Zerg. No surprises anywhere. JD didn't assert control. He didn't gain momentum, not once. He just played into Flash's hands.
Ahahaha man if you think your that good go play sc in korea then, you'll make a killing if these games were that 'predictable' for you
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On August 29 2010 03:31 checo wrote:
Every time JD losses ir rater Race Imba or Map Imba... For once can you fan boys accept he got out played???
I mean yea Odd Eye is a bad map for zerg but Flash is know for greedy builds why don't take control of the Bo5 and 6pool him or something... Maps matter but only if you don't take advantage of what your oponent is going to do on them...
JD needs to spend some tme with July XD
It would be better for Jaedong to spend time with KWANRO. Who better to teach him the art of super-all in/end the game fast builds than the master himself?
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On August 29 2010 03:31 checo wrote:
Every time JD losses ir rater Race Imba or Map Imba... For once can you fan boys accept he got out played???
I mean yea Odd Eye is a bad map for zerg but Flash is know for greedy builds why don't take control of the Bo5 and 6pool him or something... Maps matter but only if you don't take advantage of what your oponent is going to do on them...
JD needs to spend some tme with July XD
It's easy to say he should have *pooled after seeing him 14CC, but think about the mind games especially after the last OSL finals when the build failed so easily, it makes the most sense to think he won't do the same again.
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What was up with Flash floating that rax in game 4?
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On August 28 2010 21:34 Wonders wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:26 SuperArc wrote:On August 28 2010 21:25 krndandaman wrote:On August 28 2010 21:18 Severedevil wrote:On August 28 2010 21:14 Pvvned wrote:On August 28 2010 21:11 deafhobbit wrote:On August 28 2010 21:02 Goragoth wrote:
If anyone has any example games of 12hat winning against 14cc (excluding aggressive zergling all-in followups like EffOrt did in the OSL final) I would be very interested to see some VODs. It really looks like it is virtually impossible because Terran ends up with such a strong early mid-game push off two bases that seems unstoppable for Zerg. Except i think efforts play in that OSL was the perfect response. I don't think committing to a kill attempt is necessary, but spamming zerglings to punish the 14cc seems like a solid response. Zerglings seem to be about the only viable response out there to end it in the early game. Anything else will just get raped in the mid/late-game (barring mishaps from the terran or absolute perfect execution from the zerg). I don't think the problem is or ever was 14CC, with or without scouting. It's the maps that allow Terran a perfect wall-in with 2 depots and a barracks. On such a map, Terran doesn't need any defense for the first five minutes of the game. I still want to see JD drone scout --> 4 hatch before pool against Flash's scout --> 14 CC, but w/e. no need for 4hatch. tech is too late and you dont need all that extra larvae. plus terran can do damage with the extremely late pool. 3hatch before pool is already a soft counter to 14cc anyways 3hatch before pool is a soft counter to rax expand... I really don't think so. Rax finishes when the pool starts, just like for 8 rax vs 12 hatch 11 pool. The difference is that the terran won't be scouting so aggressively and the rax will be in the main, but on the other hand the economic disparity isn't as great. If terran scouts it first then he can pressure with marines and more than make back the economic disadvantage. If zerg scouts 13cc first he can't do anything.
From a post that I had read from Ver some months ago, he seemed to say that 1rax cc with expand before marine is economically equivalent to 3hatch before pool. If this is so, then double cc is economically stronger than triple hatch.
I personally don't have any idea though.
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On August 29 2010 03:39 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 03:31 checo wrote:
Every time JD losses ir rater Race Imba or Map Imba... For once can you fan boys accept he got out played???
I mean yea Odd Eye is a bad map for zerg but Flash is know for greedy builds why don't take control of the Bo5 and 6pool him or something... Maps matter but only if you don't take advantage of what your oponent is going to do on them...
JD needs to spend some tme with July XD It's easy to say he should have *pooled after seeing him 14CC, but think about the mind games especially after the last OSL finals when the build failed so easily, it makes the most sense to think he won't do the same again.
He fail vs Effort and then owned JD with 14cc in their next Matches... why wouldn't he use it if he already own him once with it?
It would be better for Jaedong to spend time with KWANRO. Who better to teach him the art of super-all in/end the game fast builds than the master himself?
Well one thing is to know how to all in and other is to know when to all in, JD knows how but this series shows he doesn't know when
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On August 29 2010 03:46 checo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 03:39 infinity2k9 wrote:On August 29 2010 03:31 checo wrote:
Every time JD losses ir rater Race Imba or Map Imba... For once can you fan boys accept he got out played???
I mean yea Odd Eye is a bad map for zerg but Flash is know for greedy builds why don't take control of the Bo5 and 6pool him or something... Maps matter but only if you don't take advantage of what your oponent is going to do on them...
JD needs to spend some tme with July XD It's easy to say he should have *pooled after seeing him 14CC, but think about the mind games especially after the last OSL finals when the build failed so easily, it makes the most sense to think he won't do the same again. He fail vs Effort and then owned JD with 14cc in their next Matches... why wouldn't he use it if he already own him once with it?
Well it would be predictable? I don't think Jaedong is comfortable taking a 50/50 chance in the last game of an MSL final when he could play a standard game. Flash knows that and takes the chance himself instead. If it had been the opposite and Jaedong 9pool'd while Flash 1rax CC'd or something then everyone would be saying the complete opposite 'Why why didn't he play standard?'. Flash is willing to flip the coin Jaedong isn't, its just a shame it has to come down to this every time.
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On August 29 2010 02:59 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 01:38 Reggiegigas wrote:
Flash vs Jaedong is, honestly, the most boring matchup in E-Sports.
It's so predictable. The final game being the best example of this. I got this massive sense of deja-vu as I watched it. Simply because I've seen this exact game so many times. I could predict everything. Timings, expansions, movements on the map, everything. And JD played so uninspired. He did nothing special, playing completely into Flash's hands, and basically lost the moment the game started and he built his first drone. At no point was it close. His mutas never got close to Flash's mineral lines. Flash got momentum easily and kept it til he won. JD did nothing but struggle and gg.
I love JD, and it might seem like I'm just an angry, upset JD fan, but hell, I'm mostly just disappointed in him. It wasn't that Flash played well, he played standard. It was that JD played so fucking bad. Sorry but he couldn't do anything BUT play into Flash's hands. Shitty map pool forced him to prepare risky, high econ builds, which Flash was easily able to predict and punish. What else was he supposed to do? Flash is too good to lose to some mass muta BS, and playing safe or standard is pretty much guarenteed to get u killed on every map but FS, especially with the bio --> mech switch thing. Better luck in the OSL jaedong, at least dreamliner actually favors zerg. Also, fuck Odd-Eye. Why is it even in the map pool still? 71% TvZ? Remember this joke of a map? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/201_Battle_RoyalGuess what, it was also 71% before they decided to remove it because of how ridiculous it was. Why can't we remove Odd Eye and have one of the older maps or something? Heck, even matchpoint seems fine.
... what the heck?? News break for you. Odd-Eye 1 was 57% TvZ. Odd-Eye 2 was 52% TvZ. Odd-Eye 3 has had less than 10 games played on it so far. And it's the SAME. DAMN. MAP.
SO EVERYONE STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT ODD-EYE, DAMMIT. I hope you all still remember that JD "BEAT" Flash on this map a while ago on that infamous Power Outage.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
But still, counting both finals they played 8 games and Flash went CC first 7 times! That is just insane.
It is Jaedong's fault for letting Flash get away with it 6 times, there cannot be any excuse for being so predictable. I am not blaming Jaedong for the last game, I am blaming him for the the first two games of it.
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On August 29 2010 03:59 Wings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 02:59 SubtleArt wrote:On August 29 2010 01:38 Reggiegigas wrote:
Flash vs Jaedong is, honestly, the most boring matchup in E-Sports.
It's so predictable. The final game being the best example of this. I got this massive sense of deja-vu as I watched it. Simply because I've seen this exact game so many times. I could predict everything. Timings, expansions, movements on the map, everything. And JD played so uninspired. He did nothing special, playing completely into Flash's hands, and basically lost the moment the game started and he built his first drone. At no point was it close. His mutas never got close to Flash's mineral lines. Flash got momentum easily and kept it til he won. JD did nothing but struggle and gg.
I love JD, and it might seem like I'm just an angry, upset JD fan, but hell, I'm mostly just disappointed in him. It wasn't that Flash played well, he played standard. It was that JD played so fucking bad. Sorry but he couldn't do anything BUT play into Flash's hands. Shitty map pool forced him to prepare risky, high econ builds, which Flash was easily able to predict and punish. What else was he supposed to do? Flash is too good to lose to some mass muta BS, and playing safe or standard is pretty much guarenteed to get u killed on every map but FS, especially with the bio --> mech switch thing. Better luck in the OSL jaedong, at least dreamliner actually favors zerg. Also, fuck Odd-Eye. Why is it even in the map pool still? 71% TvZ? Remember this joke of a map? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/201_Battle_RoyalGuess what, it was also 71% before they decided to remove it because of how ridiculous it was. Why can't we remove Odd Eye and have one of the older maps or something? Heck, even matchpoint seems fine. ... what the heck?? News break for you. Odd-Eye 1 was 57% TvZ. Odd-Eye 2 was 52% TvZ. Odd-Eye 3 has had less than 10 games played on it so far. And it's the SAME. DAMN. MAP. SO EVERYONE STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT ODD-EYE, DAMMIT. I hope you all still remember that JD "BEAT" Flash on this map a while ago on that infamous Power Outage.
There's a reason every Zerg player thumbs it down every time though. When players pick Polaris Rhapsody over it for TvZ you know it's probably not balanced.
On August 29 2010 04:00 Fenrax wrote:
But still, counting both finals they played 8 games and Flash went CC first 7 times! That is just insane.
It is Jaedong's fault for letting Flash get away with it 6 times, there cannot be any excuse for being so predictable. I am not blaming Jaedong for the last game, I am blaming him for the the first two games of it.
Don't think it was blind 14CC in the other games though?
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On August 29 2010 03:42 tomatriedes wrote:
What was up with Flash floating that rax in game 4?
Just winning the MSL. Part of the master plan (:
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God damn Jaedong, why couldn't you do some 9 pool. Flash did 14CC in every damn game(cept FS). Just like last time.
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On August 29 2010 03:59 Wings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 02:59 SubtleArt wrote:On August 29 2010 01:38 Reggiegigas wrote:
Flash vs Jaedong is, honestly, the most boring matchup in E-Sports.
It's so predictable. The final game being the best example of this. I got this massive sense of deja-vu as I watched it. Simply because I've seen this exact game so many times. I could predict everything. Timings, expansions, movements on the map, everything. And JD played so uninspired. He did nothing special, playing completely into Flash's hands, and basically lost the moment the game started and he built his first drone. At no point was it close. His mutas never got close to Flash's mineral lines. Flash got momentum easily and kept it til he won. JD did nothing but struggle and gg.
I love JD, and it might seem like I'm just an angry, upset JD fan, but hell, I'm mostly just disappointed in him. It wasn't that Flash played well, he played standard. It was that JD played so fucking bad. Sorry but he couldn't do anything BUT play into Flash's hands. Shitty map pool forced him to prepare risky, high econ builds, which Flash was easily able to predict and punish. What else was he supposed to do? Flash is too good to lose to some mass muta BS, and playing safe or standard is pretty much guarenteed to get u killed on every map but FS, especially with the bio --> mech switch thing. Better luck in the OSL jaedong, at least dreamliner actually favors zerg. Also, fuck Odd-Eye. Why is it even in the map pool still? 71% TvZ? Remember this joke of a map? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/201_Battle_RoyalGuess what, it was also 71% before they decided to remove it because of how ridiculous it was. Why can't we remove Odd Eye and have one of the older maps or something? Heck, even matchpoint seems fine. ... what the heck?? News break for you. Odd-Eye 1 was 57% TvZ. Odd-Eye 2 was 52% TvZ. Odd-Eye 3 has had less than 10 games played on it so far. And it's the SAME. DAMN. MAP. SO EVERYONE STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT ODD-EYE, DAMMIT. I hope you all still remember that JD "BEAT" Flash on this map a while ago on that infamous Power Outage.
And Dreamliner has only had 13 games played on it and you never stop bitching and whining about that map.
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On August 29 2010 03:24 Reggiegigas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 03:19 Malinor wrote:On August 29 2010 02:59 SubtleArt wrote:On August 29 2010 01:38 Reggiegigas wrote:
Flash vs Jaedong is, honestly, the most boring matchup in E-Sports.
It's so predictable. The final game being the best example of this. I got this massive sense of deja-vu as I watched it. Simply because I've seen this exact game so many times. I could predict everything. Timings, expansions, movements on the map, everything. And JD played so uninspired. He did nothing special, playing completely into Flash's hands, and basically lost the moment the game started and he built his first drone. At no point was it close. His mutas never got close to Flash's mineral lines. Flash got momentum easily and kept it til he won. JD did nothing but struggle and gg.
I love JD, and it might seem like I'm just an angry, upset JD fan, but hell, I'm mostly just disappointed in him. It wasn't that Flash played well, he played standard. It was that JD played so fucking bad. Sorry but he couldn't do anything BUT play into Flash's hands. Shitty map pool forced him to prepare risky, high econ builds, which Flash was easily able to predict and punish. What else was he supposed to do? Flash is too good to lose to some mass muta BS, and playing safe or standard is pretty much guarenteed to get u killed on every map but FS, especially with the bio --> mech switch thing. Better luck in the OSL jaedong, at least dreamliner actually favors zerg. Also, fuck Odd-Eye. Why is it even in the map pool still? 71% TvZ? On the one hand I agree, the maps forced him to take those risks when he wants to play a macro-game, and Flash exploited that with his timing attacks like the best terran in the world should. But on the other hand, that is what I actually think was Jaedongs fault. 2x Polaris 1x Odd-Eye, at least once in these three games he should have done a 4pool or 9pool. Flashs 14cc was very predictable on these maps (although since Flash always scouts on time on Odd-Eye, at least 9pool isn't viable there, maybe 12pool to at least prevent the 14cc? I don't know enough about the timings if 12pool vs rax expand is better for the zerg than 14cc vs 12hatch. But on Polaris flash played completely blind). In my opinion Jaedong should have approached the series more agressive. He loses the first game most of the time anyway, might aswell 4pool to scare the shit out of Flash, even if it fails. Exactly. JD played poorly and it seemed like he hadn't prepared well enough imo. He let Flash get away with too much.
this is what I always felt during all these games, indeed Jae let Flash get away with 14cc unpunished, that was a stupid thing to do, and what I felt too is that he was like very tired today, his muta was unagressive, and, well, overall his decision making was lacking a lot, no I didn't expect these games to be so one-sided, but, still, congrats to Flash, he deserves it all after all.
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On August 29 2010 03:31 checo wrote:
Every time JD losses ir rater Race Imba or Map Imba... For once can you fan boys accept he got out played???
I mean yea Odd Eye is a bad map for zerg but Flash is know for greedy builds why don't take control of the Bo5 and 6pool him or something... Maps matter but only if you don't take advantage of what your oponent is going to do on them...
JD needs to spend some tme with July XD
don't be too quick to judge, Jae played like a stubborn lamb he is, if he could just 4 pool once , it would have been you now who would weep about 4 pool cheese.
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I think Jaedong actually should've just 2 hatch mutaling all ined Flash in PR, at least in game 1. He could've thrown in some queens like he did with Light. Flash's weakest part of the game is his early game, and he is known to make stupid mistakes from time to time (e.g. WCG finals game 3 and this MSL finals game 4), and JD should've exploited that.
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EPT
