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On August 29 2010 03:59 Wings wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 02:59 SubtleArt wrote:On August 29 2010 01:38 Reggiegigas wrote:
Flash vs Jaedong is, honestly, the most boring matchup in E-Sports.
It's so predictable. The final game being the best example of this. I got this massive sense of deja-vu as I watched it. Simply because I've seen this exact game so many times. I could predict everything. Timings, expansions, movements on the map, everything. And JD played so uninspired. He did nothing special, playing completely into Flash's hands, and basically lost the moment the game started and he built his first drone. At no point was it close. His mutas never got close to Flash's mineral lines. Flash got momentum easily and kept it til he won. JD did nothing but struggle and gg.
I love JD, and it might seem like I'm just an angry, upset JD fan, but hell, I'm mostly just disappointed in him. It wasn't that Flash played well, he played standard. It was that JD played so fucking bad. Sorry but he couldn't do anything BUT play into Flash's hands. Shitty map pool forced him to prepare risky, high econ builds, which Flash was easily able to predict and punish. What else was he supposed to do? Flash is too good to lose to some mass muta BS, and playing safe or standard is pretty much guarenteed to get u killed on every map but FS, especially with the bio --> mech switch thing. Better luck in the OSL jaedong, at least dreamliner actually favors zerg. Also, fuck Odd-Eye. Why is it even in the map pool still? 71% TvZ? Remember this joke of a map? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/201_Battle_RoyalGuess what, it was also 71% before they decided to remove it because of how ridiculous it was. Why can't we remove Odd Eye and have one of the older maps or something? Heck, even matchpoint seems fine. ... what the heck?? News break for you. Odd-Eye 1 was 57% TvZ. Odd-Eye 2 was 52% TvZ. Odd-Eye 3 has had less than 10 games played on it so far. And it's the SAME. DAMN. MAP. SO EVERYONE STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT ODD-EYE, DAMMIT. I hope you all still remember that JD "BEAT" Flash on this map a while ago on that infamous Power Outage.
It was still really imbalanced back then, even worse than the numbers indicate (as many pros have admitted). On top of that, those statistics were many bio --> mech switches ago. Have you noticed how every single zerg recently has thumbed down odd eye when they have the chance? Players like Midas Sea and Light have stated many times that Odd Eye is a haven for Terran in TvZ, especially with mech, and that if both sides play evenly then terran should win.
Also lol @ everyone saying "jaedong deserved it he shoulda went pool first". So easy to say in retrospect when we know exactly what flash played. I'm sure in game its a bit more complex, like "is he gonna 14CC again?" "what if he expects me to think he's gonna 14CC" "he's already done it 3 times this series, he's probably thinking I'm expecting it" "what if he decided to rax first?" "Do i play 3 hatch --> pool? what if he cheeses". Doesn't help that pool first openings are only good against cheese and 14CC, and leave you automatically behind vs 1 rax, which terrans do over 90% of the time.....
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I don't understand why..
+ Show Spoiler + ..Flash gg'ed in the 3rd game. I thought he was ahead. It looked like he was crushing Jaedong's army also.
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On August 29 2010 04:24 K3Nyy wrote:I don't understand why.. + Show Spoiler + ..Flash gg'ed in the 3rd game. I thought he was ahead. It looked like he was crushing Jaedong's army also.
No mining, his third wasn't going to survive, Jaedong was on like 5 base.
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On August 29 2010 04:20 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 03:59 Wings wrote:On August 29 2010 02:59 SubtleArt wrote:On August 29 2010 01:38 Reggiegigas wrote:
Flash vs Jaedong is, honestly, the most boring matchup in E-Sports.
It's so predictable. The final game being the best example of this. I got this massive sense of deja-vu as I watched it. Simply because I've seen this exact game so many times. I could predict everything. Timings, expansions, movements on the map, everything. And JD played so uninspired. He did nothing special, playing completely into Flash's hands, and basically lost the moment the game started and he built his first drone. At no point was it close. His mutas never got close to Flash's mineral lines. Flash got momentum easily and kept it til he won. JD did nothing but struggle and gg.
I love JD, and it might seem like I'm just an angry, upset JD fan, but hell, I'm mostly just disappointed in him. It wasn't that Flash played well, he played standard. It was that JD played so fucking bad. Sorry but he couldn't do anything BUT play into Flash's hands. Shitty map pool forced him to prepare risky, high econ builds, which Flash was easily able to predict and punish. What else was he supposed to do? Flash is too good to lose to some mass muta BS, and playing safe or standard is pretty much guarenteed to get u killed on every map but FS, especially with the bio --> mech switch thing. Better luck in the OSL jaedong, at least dreamliner actually favors zerg. Also, fuck Odd-Eye. Why is it even in the map pool still? 71% TvZ? Remember this joke of a map? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/201_Battle_RoyalGuess what, it was also 71% before they decided to remove it because of how ridiculous it was. Why can't we remove Odd Eye and have one of the older maps or something? Heck, even matchpoint seems fine. ... what the heck?? News break for you. Odd-Eye 1 was 57% TvZ. Odd-Eye 2 was 52% TvZ. Odd-Eye 3 has had less than 10 games played on it so far. And it's the SAME. DAMN. MAP. SO EVERYONE STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT ODD-EYE, DAMMIT. I hope you all still remember that JD "BEAT" Flash on this map a while ago on that infamous Power Outage. It was still really imbalanced back then, even worse than the numbers indicate (as many pros have admitted). On top of that, those statistics were many bio --> mech switches ago. Have you noticed how every single zerg recently has thumbed down odd eye when they have the chance? Players like Midas Sea and Light have stated many times that Odd Eye is a haven for Terran in TvZ, especially with mech, and that if both sides play evenly then terran should win. Also lol @ everyone saying "jaedong deserved it he shoulda went pool first". So easy to say in retrospect when we know exactly what flash played. I'm sure in game its a bit more complex, like "is he gonna 14CC again?" "what if he expects me to think he's gonna 14CC" "he's already done it 3 times this series, he's probably thinking I'm expecting it" "what if he decided to rax first?" "Do i play 3 hatch --> pool? what if he cheeses". Doesn't help that pool first openings are only good against cheese and 14CC, and leave you automatically behind vs 1 rax, which terrans do over 90% of the time.....
well it was just so obvious, just tell me how many times flash did not go 14 cc in his last games, so I cant make an example, all I (as a fanboy))) like to say, is that Jae should have been more flexible with his builds, honestly I expected much more, and these two wins didn't impress me at all, I saw he was barely hanging, (maybe Flash was so good, that even Jae looked like Hyuk on dreamliner), maybe this is so, but it pains me to watch like my favorite player is dismantled by a clever(14cc) build -th game in a raw, no this is not what a fan likes to see, I want a fight, that is worth watching, I want Flash to get scared, but the only tough moment for Flash was delivered by Fanta so far and well Leta, but not Jae, this is what makes me so sad.
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The guys talking shit about imbalances overall (not map imbalances, that is other thing) should be warned, that what are they talking can be easly used as argument against there favorite race.
If ZvT is imba towards Terran...
...and ZvP is imba toward ZERG...
...and ZvZ is a shity lottery with only 3 units through whole the game in more than 80% mirrors (not counting drones and overlords)...
...and we know that TvP is kinda fair in many maps...
...that means that its not the Terrans who are poorly designed. That means that ZERG are poorly designed.
Edit: so many ninja edit ;(
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Clueless guy above me.
Maps really were difficult and having to play so many TvZ's sucked.
Games one and two were pretty apparent examples of it.
Practice games. Practice games.
OSL, it's on.
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On August 29 2010 04:45 SuperJongMan wrote:
Clueless guy above me.
Maps really were difficult and having to play so many TvZ's sucked.
Games one and two were pretty apparent examples of it.
Practice games. Practice games.
OSL, it's on.
Jae once was the one who didn't give a chit about map imbalance...((((
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Is JD too proud to go 4-pool against Flash or something? I do not understand the complete lack of it in all their games despite Flash going for 14 CC almost all the time. 
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So when is the next MSL(s) going to start if sponsored?
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On August 29 2010 04:17 timlin737 wrote:
I think Jaedong actually should've just 2 hatch mutaling all ined Flash in PR, at least in game 1. He could've thrown in some queens like he did with Light. Flash's weakest part of the game is his early game, and he is known to make stupid mistakes from time to time (e.g. WCG finals game 3 and this MSL finals game 4), and JD should've exploited that.
PR doesn't give you three free gases and an easy fourth gas.
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On August 29 2010 04:20 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 03:59 Wings wrote:On August 29 2010 02:59 SubtleArt wrote:On August 29 2010 01:38 Reggiegigas wrote:
Flash vs Jaedong is, honestly, the most boring matchup in E-Sports.
It's so predictable. The final game being the best example of this. I got this massive sense of deja-vu as I watched it. Simply because I've seen this exact game so many times. I could predict everything. Timings, expansions, movements on the map, everything. And JD played so uninspired. He did nothing special, playing completely into Flash's hands, and basically lost the moment the game started and he built his first drone. At no point was it close. His mutas never got close to Flash's mineral lines. Flash got momentum easily and kept it til he won. JD did nothing but struggle and gg.
I love JD, and it might seem like I'm just an angry, upset JD fan, but hell, I'm mostly just disappointed in him. It wasn't that Flash played well, he played standard. It was that JD played so fucking bad. Sorry but he couldn't do anything BUT play into Flash's hands. Shitty map pool forced him to prepare risky, high econ builds, which Flash was easily able to predict and punish. What else was he supposed to do? Flash is too good to lose to some mass muta BS, and playing safe or standard is pretty much guarenteed to get u killed on every map but FS, especially with the bio --> mech switch thing. Better luck in the OSL jaedong, at least dreamliner actually favors zerg. Also, fuck Odd-Eye. Why is it even in the map pool still? 71% TvZ? Remember this joke of a map? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/201_Battle_RoyalGuess what, it was also 71% before they decided to remove it because of how ridiculous it was. Why can't we remove Odd Eye and have one of the older maps or something? Heck, even matchpoint seems fine. ... what the heck?? News break for you. Odd-Eye 1 was 57% TvZ. Odd-Eye 2 was 52% TvZ. Odd-Eye 3 has had less than 10 games played on it so far. And it's the SAME. DAMN. MAP. SO EVERYONE STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT ODD-EYE, DAMMIT. I hope you all still remember that JD "BEAT" Flash on this map a while ago on that infamous Power Outage. It was still really imbalanced back then, even worse than the numbers indicate (as many pros have admitted). On top of that, those statistics were many bio --> mech switches ago. Have you noticed how every single zerg recently has thumbed down odd eye when they have the chance? Players like Midas Sea and Light have stated many times that Odd Eye is a haven for Terran in TvZ, especially with mech, and that if both sides play evenly then terran should win. Also lol @ everyone saying "jaedong deserved it he shoulda went pool first". So easy to say in retrospect when we know exactly what flash played. I'm sure in game its a bit more complex, like "is he gonna 14CC again?" "what if he expects me to think he's gonna 14CC" "he's already done it 3 times this series, he's probably thinking I'm expecting it" "what if he decided to rax first?" "Do i play 3 hatch --> pool? what if he cheeses". Doesn't help that pool first openings are only good against cheese and 14CC, and leave you automatically behind vs 1 rax, which terrans do over 90% of the time.....
People who say Jaedong deserved it are the butthurt fanboys, who are angry over Flash raping him.
Its best to just ignore it and go on with your life.
If he deserved it he would have won it
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Vatican City State431 Posts
Didn't Jaedong beat Light on Polaris Rhapsody twice? And Light is a very good vZ player!
All-Time Records on:
Polaris Rhapsody
Flash: 12-2
Jaedong: 10-3
Odd-Eye 3
Flash: 2-1
Jaedong: 3-1
Fighting Spirit
Flash: 21-9
Jaedong: 22-8
Triathlon
Flash: 7-0
Jaedong: 3-3
So on the only map that Jaedong had problems (Triathlon) he actually won..So much for the map imbalance!
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On August 29 2010 05:31 p14c wrote:
Didn't Jaedong beat Light on Polaris Rhapsody twice? And Light is a very good vZ player!
All-Time Records on:
Polaris Rhapsody
Flash: 12-2
Jaedong: 10-3
Odd-Eye 3
Flash: 2-1
Jaedong: 3-1
Fighting Spirit
Flash: 21-9
Jaedong: 22-8
Triathlon
Flash: 7-0
Jaedong: 3-3
So on the only map that Jaedong had problems (Triathlon) he actually won..So much for the map imbalance!
in the 5th game light forgot to make an ebay/made firebats and just massively failed
1st game jaedong ling busted the front
i don't think that says too much about tvz on polaris. triathlon is actually decent for zerg and fs is neutral. they should make fs ace ALWAYS.
maps were dumb but w/e, to the osl we go
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Vatican City State431 Posts
On August 29 2010 05:33 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 05:31 p14c wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Didn't Jaedong beat Light on Polaris Rhapsody twice? And Light is a very good vZ player!
All-Time Records on:
Polaris Rhapsody
Flash: 12-2
Jaedong: 10-3
Odd-Eye 3
Flash: 2-1
Jaedong: 3-1
Fighting Spirit
Flash: 21-9
Jaedong: 22-8
Triathlon
Flash: 7-0
Jaedong: 3-3
So on the only map that Jaedong had problems (Triathlon) he actually won..So much for the map imbalance!
in the 5th game light forgot to make an ebay/made firebats and just massively failed 1st game jaedong ling busted the front i don't think that says too much about tvz on polaris. triathlon is actually decent for zerg and fs is neutral. they should make fs ace ALWAYS. maps were dumb but w/e, to the osl we go
He didnt forget, his nat was almost breached by zerglings so he was forced to make firebats. Also Jaedong went 2 Hatch muta with low drone saturation (making zerglings and rushing for mutas). He should have gone for the same strategy vs Flash...
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This is why effort is still the number 1 ZvTer to me. He knows how to punish greedy terran builds, Jaedong can get 14cc'd 3 times by flash two finals in a row and not even react? pathetic showing. Jaedong's zvt game sense is slipping.
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Yeah man Effort totally schools top class TvZers like light way better than Jaedong.
Weelllllllllllp
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On August 29 2010 05:44 p14c wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 05:33 shawster wrote:On August 29 2010 05:31 p14c wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Didn't Jaedong beat Light on Polaris Rhapsody twice? And Light is a very good vZ player!
All-Time Records on:
Polaris Rhapsody
Flash: 12-2
Jaedong: 10-3
Odd-Eye 3
Flash: 2-1
Jaedong: 3-1
Fighting Spirit
Flash: 21-9
Jaedong: 22-8
Triathlon
Flash: 7-0
Jaedong: 3-3
So on the only map that Jaedong had problems (Triathlon) he actually won..So much for the map imbalance!
in the 5th game light forgot to make an ebay/made firebats and just massively failed 1st game jaedong ling busted the front i don't think that says too much about tvz on polaris. triathlon is actually decent for zerg and fs is neutral. they should make fs ace ALWAYS. maps were dumb but w/e, to the osl we go He didnt forget, his nat was almost breached by zerglings so he was forced to make firebats. Also Jaedong went 2 Hatch muta with low drone saturation (making zerglings and rushing for mutas). He should have gone for the same strategy vs Flash...
still could've made an ebay while making firebats
but it's impossible to penetrate flash so not sure how well that would've worked
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Rewatching game 5 in a calm state of mind I noticed what I missed when it was live: JD's poor mutalist control! You can see several times JD moves his mutas in to fire a volley off but turns back without actually getting the shot off. Flash had amazing control of course but JD's micro really was not good a lot of the time.
It's hard to picture JD making mistakes like that from nerves, but I can't help but wonder if he was just rattled by the fact that his build was tailored to crush mech, which Flash didn't go for. I'm not sure he could have held it even with 'normal' JD muta control.
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Lol I went to sleep at 2-0 cuz games 1 & 2 sucked. Luckily Flash still won!
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United States11393 Posts
Game 3 was the modern-day Iris vs GGplay on Python.
It even had the mandatory multiple swarms in third itself to save third.
Too bad games like this are too few and far-between as most are already over before the games even begin.
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EPT
