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United States47024 Posts
On May 31 2010 14:44 ]343[ wrote:The problem with calling Flash bonjwa is the fact that he looks... "touchable" (pardon the language.) He is currently the best in the world, no doubt. But on a given day, there are (rather, may possibly seem to be  ) at least a couple players capable of hanging with him. It's that doubt that lingers. Yes, two back-to-back dual finals are unprecedented... but he probably needed to win 1 more of those to have a chance at really being declared "bonjwa." [Or at least making dual semifinals this season would probably show his consistency...]
As has been elaborated by many others, Savior, Oov, Nada, and Boxer were just as "touchable" as Flash is now, if not more so.
And why do people insist that Flash has to do something that only Nada has done before to be called bonjwa? If you need that level of consistency/dominance, then Nada is the only bonjwa (granted, I would be perfectly fine with that  ).
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On May 31 2010 11:48 Lollersauce wrote:
Those finals were so one-sided it really wasn't funny...
Bleh.
Was expecting Jaedong to put up more of a fight, at least.
Yeah, when flash put down the 14cc for the 3rd time I just wanted to punch my computer. Jaedong can't just 12 hatch like it's his job, esp after seeing the 14cc two games in a row...
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On May 31 2010 20:13 CROrens wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 04:38 EntertainMe wrote:On May 31 2010 02:56 CROrens wrote:On May 30 2010 14:11 EntertainMe wrote:On May 30 2010 13:18 NoobSkills wrote:On May 30 2010 13:06 FreshVegetables wrote:On May 30 2010 08:35 Roffles wrote:On May 30 2010 08:20 hypercube wrote:On May 30 2010 02:53 Roffles wrote:
You serious? I see this a week after Effort destroyed him with pretty much just zerglings. Duh, he's not perfect. He still delivered 3 out of 5 times this season, which is pretty good for a choker. Never called him a choker. Don't pull random shit outta your ass. Was just responding to another ridiculous claim of Flash bonjwa. Well, you're ridiculous if ur saying that flash isnt bonjwa now. I am one of the top Flash Fans. I've rarely missed a game. I despise mirror games even though TvT is usually the best out of them, but the only TvT I watch is if flash is playing. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. The qualifications are clear. Chances are there won't be a last bonjwa before SC2 takes over. His best chance will be to become the last GREAT player if he dominates the rest of the tournaments whatever is left of SC1 (imo a more entertaining game). It would be a slim chance to be bonjwa, but not impossilbe. Win PL + MSL + OSL and I wouldn't mind anyone claiming that, but he doesn't do it like the bonjwas of the past just yet. I'm glad he won. His strategy was perfect vs jaedong. Stop muta harrass and stop jaedong. Why? Because JD's late game starts much earlier if he can delay your econ / push time. I hope there is one clear winner between the two of them before this game dies out, but neither can be crowned bonjwa until they establish clear dominance over the other. Just my 2 cents, heres to hoping there are several more years of SC1 dominating SC2  Mind explaining what those qualifications are? Also at this time and age, where proleague take priority over individual league, Flash ABSOLUTELY dominated proleague and won (unlike Sea, and thus bringing first ever proleague win for KTF) with unprecedant 50+ wins, while achieving the never achieved 70+% on all match ups. That cannot be taken lightly. Not to mention, within the SAME season, Flash enters BOTH of the individual league's finals(also Back to Back that is) and wins another medal. That means Flash had to prepare for 3 leagues at once. No bonjwas had ever shown such dominance over short period of time. Going against your theory, no bonjwa was ever perfect. Like I mentioned in the previous posts, Savior had SO MANY legit contenders when compared to Flash (Jaedong being his only contender).-Savior was never the favorite against Chojja, zvz god at the time. Chojja always had the best of Savior. -Savior was never the favorite against Hwasin. At the time of Bo5 against Hwasin, the maps were so ridiculously Terran-Favored, savior went in game as the underdog (upto certain extent, which was proven wrong, which made Savior a legacy, a bonjwa). -Savior always had tough match against Irish. Remember Savior vs Iris game FIVE? It is considered one of the best game ever played and alot of people's personal favorite. Why? Because it shows how close Iris was beating Savior in bo5. Just one dropship away. (Another Savior's legacy) -Midas was never scared of Savior. Midas was always confident that he could beat Savior, he challenged Savior back to back because he firmly believed that he actually had a good shot against Savior. And many people thought so too. Just because Flash has a great contender like Jaedong doesn't make him a less of a bonjwa. **I used Savior as main example because the term bonjwa was first invented to describe Savior's state of dominance. But every other bonjwa can be replaced for same reasoning. And here is where you whole paragraph before this sentece gets raped Explain?... I thought it was obvious... in the paragraph before that sentence he says that flash deserves his bonjwa status or whatnot based on him owning everyone, having 70% winrate, "Flash ABSOLUTELY dominated proleague" etc... and then he basically said, well unlike Savior - Flash had no real competition except JD. see what i mean?
Here's where your reading comprehension gets raped.
I thought my view was even more obvious.
Here's my view.
There always was competition. There always is competition. And there always will be competition.
Nevertheless, Flash dominates so hard in the league that it looks as if he has no legit contender besides Jaedong, thus 70% winning %. It's not the other way around like you make it sounds to be.
You are basically twisting my words into:
Because there's no competition, Flash gets easy 70%.
That's not what I said, and you misunderstood. What I wrote only strenghthens why Flash is such a brilliant player. If we were to interpret my statement into your twisted view, then there's no such thing as bonjwa (or even good player), since the competition is so low for them to not win.
Also, your statement about what I said of Savior cant be more wrong.
I used Savior as vocal example, because he brought the term Bonjwa into proleague. Basically, he is the very example what Bonjwa should ought to be like.
You again, twisting my words, make it sound like that I believe Savior had greater competition than Flash is having. Competition is always the same. What I'm saying, and what you don't seem to grasp, is that Flash surpassed what Savior's accomplished in terms of "owning" the league.
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Basically, Savior is the very example what Bonjwa should ought to be like.
NO. just no.
NO ONE should be like savior please ._.
please take it back.right now.
Good games by flash. Jaedong played too greedy by 12 hatch before scout every single time. Guess he just cant win without BO advantage of unpunished cheese econ of 12 hatch
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OMFG... I was out on a date with this new Korean chick so I missed the MSL finals, but I just now watched Jon747's VODs (thanks for the spoilers)
I thought it went to a game 5, but Jon747 had 2 "filler" VODs. I'm so happy Flash swept Jaedong 3-0.
First of all yes... I'm biased for Terran, but I seriously had a tear in my eye no lie, because Flash deserved this win after what happened to him against Effort. It was so depressing seeing Flash lose to some "Kwanrolling" bullshit by Effort so when Flash outplayed Jaedong 3 games in a row with spectacular build orders followed by typical mech push + STELLAR defense I was so happy.
I'm not kidding I got a little teary eyed when I saw Flash stop "trying his best" when he KNEW he beat Jaedong 3-0. He really got fucked over in my opinion against Effort's "all-in" ling builds in games 3 and 5. Game 4 honestly in my opinion belonged to Effort because he countered the dropship play with excellent hydralisk defense.
So I'm so happy for Flash... I would of hoped to see it go all the way to Game 5, but I'm just glad that Flash won especially when a lot of you fuckers jumped on the bandwagon and said Flash is in a "slump" I'm always going to be a Flash fan just because I'm Terran, but seeing all these people jump on Jaedong's nuts just because Flash loss to Effort 3 games in a row is bullshit.
Fuck all the mindless Flash haters. Flash deserved this MSL win. I'm so happy for Flash... I hope he keeps this up.
*EDIT*
Yes I had voted for Jaedong in the previous poll, but that was before OSL Finals took place. When I watched Midas vs Jaedong I saw the old Jaedong I knew from the previous MSL finals when he was wrecking havoc against Flash. Honestly in my opinion I think Jaedong went with too much of a "macro" heavy build against Flash. I think some "Kwanrolling" would of worked against Flash, but instead Jaedong went with his "signature" 3 hatch evolution chamber type build orders and going a macro build against Flash in my opinion is a GAMBLE. Flash is so fucking good mid/late game so you're just asking for a challenge when you don't try to attack him early like what Effort did. Effort's early aggression WORKS against a player like Flash.
I feel really bad for Jaedong. I really didn't want to see Jaedong get beat 3-0.
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I've finally got to watch the games...and man, Flash just showed he has balls of steel in the first game. Sure, haters gonna call it cheese and that he got lucky, but it doesn't change that it was very ballsy move. Who would have expected 14cc? The build for which Flash has got most hate? The build he just used in the OSL final game which he terribly lost? Me not...and Jaedong certainly neither. That was pure mindfuck!
Game 2 made me kind of sad. I already knew the results and because the greedy openings and fact that the game last only like 8 minutes, I know it won't end pretty for Jaedong. And damn, it surely didn't. Hours of preparation, opening which sets you into late game...and then you just die to first push, that had to be terrible for JD. And his face said it all, he was broken. I was feeling really sorry for him...but hey, he already has 5 titles and it's not like this was his last shot...
I'm really happy for Flash, he deserved it like no one else. Also it was great revenge for all past BO5, namely the GOM finals, which ended also 3:0 and was similar rape. If revenge is dish best served cold, Flash just stuffed Jaedong into freezer.
One request - does anybody here has the 14cc demotivational poster? I remember it has some commentators laughing and tagline "14CC - don't you ever learn Flash?" or something like that. I think it would be highly appropriete to post it know...irony at its finest.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
This thread has sucked my soul out :S
HYPE HYPE HYPE
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lol, actually this was almost the last thing I expected to happen. Epic result :D
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On June 01 2010 06:24 SturmAddict wrote:NO. just no. NO ONE should be like savior please ._. please take it back.right now. Good games by flash. Jaedong played too greedy by 12 hatch before scout every single time. Guess he just cant win without BO advantage of unpunished cheese econ of 12 hatch
Is that statement supposed to be some kind of ironic troll response to the people calling 14CC cheese? Or are you serious? 12 hatch is not econ cheese, it puts the zerg is no significant advantage over a Terran that is going 1 rax FE. Rather, going overpool or 12 pool puts the zerg at a disadvantage.
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Flash trolled everyone that hated his 14 CC build in the OSL by going 14 CC every single game haha
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United States10328 Posts
On June 01 2010 09:35 flamewheel wrote:
This thread has sucked my soul out :S
HYPE HYPE HYPE
you're pretty lol
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Is that statement supposed to be some kind of ironic troll response to the people calling 14CC cheese? Or are you serious? 12 hatch is not econ cheese, it puts the zerg is no significant advantage over a Terran that is going 1 rax FE. Rather, going overpool or 12 pool puts the zerg at a disadvantage.
to me 12 hatch is definitely an econ cheese. Just like how 12 nex is.
If the terran does a centre map BBS and pull SCV's, you will almost definitely die. just like how 12 nex do. Sure, awesome micro might cause you to survive. but in general on equal skill levels, you are dead.
The only reason why 12 hatch survives because it depends on terran not scouting it early enough. Which is the exact critereon of an econ cheese.
Sure.by next year, 14cc , 12 nex and 3 hatch before pool might be "standard" and "not an econ cheese". But as for now, pro players still do risky 8 rax and bbs's. and i think taking an early game BO advantage like 12hatch/cc/nex is definitely a cheese.
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Geez, JD's build was sexy in game 3 but he executed it poorly. He should've won that game. Why didn't he rush in Flash main after sniping the 1st tank ? And when Flash had the time to build 3 tanks JD should have saved his hydras and multi + lair to try to close the gap (Flash didn't mine from his nat for about 2min so it was doable).
I'm no BW pro and maybe I'll get flamed but man, JD just choked BIG TIME in my humble opinion.
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On May 31 2010 21:55 dybydx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 18:03 tomatriedes wrote:On May 31 2010 17:12 SturmAddict wrote:
You cannot "hide" a 2 hatch muta from a terran unless you block your ramp at 10. Even then your natural drone count will definitely unhide your strategy to them.
As long as terran see's that your extractor and spawning pool up around the same time (checking via HP), and your drone-to-mineral-left ratio not that high, its pretty obvious that it would be 2 hatch lurkers or mutalisks.
Terran will just opt to change BO by speeding up his e-bay for earlier turrets. I know, but Flash can be pretty stubborn about not building turrets even when he knows it's coming and after a 14CC everything is delayed. I still think he should have tried it in at least one of the games. It didn't seem right to let Flash get away with three 14CCs in a row. in game 1, flash did get turrets early. in game 2, flash scouted the 3rd hatch, so he knew it can not be 2 hatch muta in game 3, flash was already getting 2 fact gols in anticipation of fast muta only to scout the hydra right after. so i dont think 2hatch muta would work for JD.
I still think it was worth trying a fast 2-hatch mutas in at least one of the games. Is it an auto-win? Of course not, I'm not saying that. But when going 14CC often the terran player does find it hard to defend against 2-hatch mutas, even when he knows it's coming. It seemed to me that Flash's plan was going to be to rely on valkyries mostly and not build a lot of turrets.
Does anyone have a better idea (apart from 4/5pool) about what JD could have done in these games?
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On June 01 2010 17:02 SturmAddict wrote:Show nested quote +Is that statement supposed to be some kind of ironic troll response to the people calling 14CC cheese? Or are you serious? 12 hatch is not econ cheese, it puts the zerg is no significant advantage over a Terran that is going 1 rax FE. Rather, going overpool or 12 pool puts the zerg at a disadvantage. to me 12 hatch is definitely an econ cheese. Just like how 12 nex is. If the terran does a centre map BBS and pull SCV's, you will almost definitely die. just like how 12 nex do. Sure, awesome micro might cause you to survive. but in general on equal skill levels, you are dead. The only reason why 12 hatch survives because it depends on terran not scouting it early enough. Which is the exact critereon of an econ cheese. Sure.by next year, 14cc , 12 nex and 3 hatch before pool might be "standard" and "not an econ cheese". But as for now, pro players still do risky 8 rax and bbs's. and i think taking an early game BO advantage like 12hatch/cc/nex is definitely a cheese.
3 hatch before pool is econ cheese. 12-hatch is standard.
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On June 01 2010 17:02 SturmAddict wrote:Show nested quote +Is that statement supposed to be some kind of ironic troll response to the people calling 14CC cheese? Or are you serious? 12 hatch is not econ cheese, it puts the zerg is no significant advantage over a Terran that is going 1 rax FE. Rather, going overpool or 12 pool puts the zerg at a disadvantage. to me 12 hatch is definitely an econ cheese. Just like how 12 nex is. If the terran does a centre map BBS and pull SCV's, you will almost definitely die. just like how 12 nex do. Sure, awesome micro might cause you to survive. but in general on equal skill levels, you are dead. The only reason why 12 hatch survives because it depends on terran not scouting it early enough. Which is the exact critereon of an econ cheese. Sure.by next year, 14cc , 12 nex and 3 hatch before pool might be "standard" and "not an econ cheese". But as for now, pro players still do risky 8 rax and bbs's. and i think taking an early game BO advantage like 12hatch/cc/nex is definitely a cheese.
Oh wow people consider 12 hatch econ cheese?
12 hatch isn't econ cheese, it's completely standard. 3 hatcheries before pool is econ cheese....
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On June 01 2010 19:02 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 21:55 dybydx wrote:On May 31 2010 18:03 tomatriedes wrote:On May 31 2010 17:12 SturmAddict wrote:
You cannot "hide" a 2 hatch muta from a terran unless you block your ramp at 10. Even then your natural drone count will definitely unhide your strategy to them.
As long as terran see's that your extractor and spawning pool up around the same time (checking via HP), and your drone-to-mineral-left ratio not that high, its pretty obvious that it would be 2 hatch lurkers or mutalisks.
Terran will just opt to change BO by speeding up his e-bay for earlier turrets. I know, but Flash can be pretty stubborn about not building turrets even when he knows it's coming and after a 14CC everything is delayed. I still think he should have tried it in at least one of the games. It didn't seem right to let Flash get away with three 14CCs in a row. in game 1, flash did get turrets early. in game 2, flash scouted the 3rd hatch, so he knew it can not be 2 hatch muta in game 3, flash was already getting 2 fact gols in anticipation of fast muta only to scout the hydra right after. so i dont think 2hatch muta would work for JD. I still think it was worth trying a fast 2-hatch mutas in at least one of the games. Is it an auto-win? Of course not, I'm not saying that. But when going 14CC often the terran player does find it hard to defend against 2-hatch mutas, even when he knows it's coming. It seemed to me that Flash's plan was going to be to rely on valkyries mostly and not build a lot of turrets. Does anyone have a better idea (apart from 4/5pool) about what JD could have done in these games?
Overpool. The safest and most reliable zerg build, of all times. Safe against any kind of cheese like BBS/8 Rax, and still punishes 14 cc quite hard (you will have 1st marine like half-way done when lings arrive). Against 1 rax FE terran is forced to delay his cc and then build it inside his base etc. etc., I really feel it's underused nowadays ;].
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United States47024 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:45 ProoM wrote:
Overpool. The safest and most reliable zerg build, of all times. Safe against any kind of cheese like BBS/8 Rax, and still punishes 14 cc quite hard (you will have 1st marine like half-way done when lings arrive). Against 1 rax FE terran is forced to delay his cc and then build it inside his base etc. etc., I really feel it's underused nowadays ;].
Overpool is risky on a 3 or 4 player map, because your early aggressive power isn't going to be useful if you don't scout him fast (especially given that Triathlon has a ling-tight wall), and if he went something safe, you're slightly behind. On the 2 player maps, being able to punish 14cc doesn't help because Flash scouted the 12hatch first, and would have likely gone rax/depot before CC if he didn't spot the 2nd hatchery.
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Sigh... Flash should have won game 3 of OSL finals, then he would be undisputed GOD. The results now is not nearly as epic as it could have been if he just won game 3.
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why is it the North American region of the world are the only ones that have this thing in stuck their head of being blind fanboys and naming bonjwas, hopping on the whoever wins most train. Sc sees like more of an baseball game to them. Half the time they don't even realize what you have to go through to be on Jd or FlaSh's level of play/skill. As long as one is touchable, they will never be bonjwa, JD isnt, nor is flash(specially after being beat by nal_ra 1st game on old boy lulz).
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EPT
