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On May 31 2010 06:00 Emon_ wrote:
Flash was one game away from being Bonjwa. . . Had he just taken a game off of Effort, there would be no fucking discussion about who the damn Bonjwa was. . . Better luck next time boy wonder!
how does that game (or match) prevent flash from being bonjwa? flash has been #1 on power rank for the last 7 months in a row (going to be 8 once it gets updated next week). if thats not dominating for you, what is?
there is absolutely no doubt right now that Flash > Effort. Hell, every bonjwa, Boxer,Nada, oov and some zerg, have lost a finals match (or semi final for oov) during their reign. No one doubted the Emperor even after he lost to Reach in the finals. Or when Nada lost to GoRush (who the fuck is GoRush?). Or when oov got knocked out by the One Time Wonder - Anytime.
Loosing a final here or there doesnt mean crap as long as the dominance is still showing elsewhere. Had JD beat Flash in this MSL final though, it would mean something, because Flash would still have to prove himself over JD.
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On May 31 2010 06:52 dybydx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 06:00 Emon_ wrote:
Flash was one game away from being Bonjwa. . . Had he just taken a game off of Effort, there would be no fucking discussion about who the damn Bonjwa was. . . Better luck next time boy wonder! how does that game (or match) prevent flash from being bonjwa? flash has been #1 on power rank for the last 7 months in a row (going to be 8 once it gets updated next week). if thats not dominating for you, what is? there is absolutely no doubt right now that Flash > Effort. Hell, every bonjwa, Boxer,Nada, oov and some zerg, have lost a finals match (or semi final for oov) during their reign. No one doubted the Emperor even after he lost to Reach in the finals. Or when Nada lost to GoRush (who the fuck is GoRush?). Or when oov got knocked out by the One Time Wonder - Anytime. Loosing a final here or there doesnt mean crap as long as the dominance is still showing elsewhere. Had JD beat Flash in this MSL final though, it would mean something, because Flash would still have to prove himself over JD.
I completely agree with this. What was Saviors win rate at his prime? was he 70% in all MU? If he was lower that means he lost about 3-4 games every 10 games he played. So even when he was a Bonjwa he still lost here and there, it's not like he automatically became not bonjwa after he lost in a semi. The fact that flash made it to 2 finals 2x in a row means that he has a high concentration of domination + a ridiculous PL record we don't even have to get into. People say that this era is too short, well how long was OOV dominating or Savior dominating before they were declared bonjwa? They were declared bonjwa early on and held that status, eventually slumping out of glory. You cant expect Flash to have a dominance as long as they did and THEN be called a Bonjwa. You declare Bonjwa now and know that he will continue to dominate. Koreans and commentators already say Flash has an era and he is the greatest Bonjwa ever. Whatever some people on TL may say, whatever
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at least flash was able to win MSL
gratz
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The scary thing is how close Flash was to winning both finals 3-0.
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Those finals were so one-sided it really wasn't funny...
Bleh.
Was expecting Jaedong to put up more of a fight, at least.
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worst finals ever (I was hoping for + Show Spoiler +)
got all my drinks and food with my friend, and what did I get?
A slaughterfest
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WOOOOOOT GO FLASH!!! U HAZ AWESOMEZZ!! jd fan boys plz cry x]
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On May 31 2010 12:06 ccdnl wrote:
WOOOOOOT GO FLASH!!! U HAZ AWESOMEZZ!! jd fan boys plz cry x]
This is how bad JD fanboy(s) is(are) feeling at the moment. as well as how good flash fanboys are feeling.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=127053
if you cant do the math, it adds up to approx $16k USD
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On May 31 2010 11:48 Lollersauce wrote:
Those finals were so one-sided it really wasn't funny...
Bleh.
Was expecting Jaedong to put up more of a fight, at least.
I was as well.
I think flash's builds really concentrated on ending mutalisk play before it even starts.
I think JD planned on mutalisk play even in the third set until he realized they were ineffective.
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Flash winning wasn't really shocking at all, but all in all I feel REALLY bad for Rekrul  .
I wish I had any money to bet on this stuff!
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United States10328 Posts
On May 31 2010 07:24 AppleTart wrote:
People say that this era is too short, well how long was OOV dominating or Savior dominating before they were declared bonjwa? They were declared bonjwa early on and held that status, eventually slumping out of glory.
Savior was called bonjwa pretty late during his domination. The other 3 bonjwas were never called bonjwa until the Savior era... it was a retroactive title.
The problem with calling Flash bonjwa is the fact that he looks... "touchable" (pardon the language.) He is currently the best in the world, no doubt. But on a given day, there are (rather, may possibly seem to be  ) at least a couple players capable of hanging with him. It's that doubt that lingers.
Yes, two back-to-back dual finals are unprecedented... but he probably needed to win 1 more of those to have a chance at really being declared "bonjwa." [Or at least making dual semifinals this season would probably show his consistency...]
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On May 31 2010 13:48 Legendary- wrote:Flash winning wasn't really shocking at all, but all in all I feel REALLY bad for Rekrul . I wish I had any money to bet on this stuff!
who cares, he wipe his ass with those extra dollars anyways.
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I've been wondering- if JD had gone fast, aggressive 2-hatch all in would he have had a chance to win against this build that Flash was doing?
I mean Flash was basically building no turrets each time and would have had a lower marine count because of the 14CC. I figure it would be possible to do if you could manage to snipe the first valkyrie quickly. The problem is if you don't manage to do that you probably lose.
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You cannot "hide" a 2 hatch muta from a terran unless you block your ramp at 10. Even then your natural drone count will definitely unhide your strategy to them.
As long as terran see's that your extractor and spawning pool up around the same time (checking via HP), and your drone-to-mineral-left ratio not that high, its pretty obvious that it would be 2 hatch lurkers or mutalisks.
Terran will just opt to change BO by speeding up his e-bay for earlier turrets.
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On May 31 2010 17:12 SturmAddict wrote:
You cannot "hide" a 2 hatch muta from a terran unless you block your ramp at 10. Even then your natural drone count will definitely unhide your strategy to them.
As long as terran see's that your extractor and spawning pool up around the same time (checking via HP), and your drone-to-mineral-left ratio not that high, its pretty obvious that it would be 2 hatch lurkers or mutalisks.
Terran will just opt to change BO by speeding up his e-bay for earlier turrets.
I know, but Flash can be pretty stubborn about not building turrets even when he knows it's coming and after a 14CC everything is delayed. I still think he should have tried it in at least one of the games. It didn't seem right to let Flash get away with three 14CCs in a row.
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Most disappointing Finals ever for me as a Jaedong fan. All of this bonjwa talk is pretty silly though, it's clear that both JD and Flash were and are, respectively. It's an ephemeral, not clinical, title, and they've both shown they have the stuff.
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On May 31 2010 04:38 EntertainMe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 02:56 CROrens wrote:On May 30 2010 14:11 EntertainMe wrote:On May 30 2010 13:18 NoobSkills wrote:On May 30 2010 13:06 FreshVegetables wrote:On May 30 2010 08:35 Roffles wrote:On May 30 2010 08:20 hypercube wrote:On May 30 2010 02:53 Roffles wrote:
You serious? I see this a week after Effort destroyed him with pretty much just zerglings. Duh, he's not perfect. He still delivered 3 out of 5 times this season, which is pretty good for a choker. Never called him a choker. Don't pull random shit outta your ass. Was just responding to another ridiculous claim of Flash bonjwa. Well, you're ridiculous if ur saying that flash isnt bonjwa now. I am one of the top Flash Fans. I've rarely missed a game. I despise mirror games even though TvT is usually the best out of them, but the only TvT I watch is if flash is playing. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. The qualifications are clear. Chances are there won't be a last bonjwa before SC2 takes over. His best chance will be to become the last GREAT player if he dominates the rest of the tournaments whatever is left of SC1 (imo a more entertaining game). It would be a slim chance to be bonjwa, but not impossilbe. Win PL + MSL + OSL and I wouldn't mind anyone claiming that, but he doesn't do it like the bonjwas of the past just yet. I'm glad he won. His strategy was perfect vs jaedong. Stop muta harrass and stop jaedong. Why? Because JD's late game starts much earlier if he can delay your econ / push time. I hope there is one clear winner between the two of them before this game dies out, but neither can be crowned bonjwa until they establish clear dominance over the other. Just my 2 cents, heres to hoping there are several more years of SC1 dominating SC2  Mind explaining what those qualifications are? Also at this time and age, where proleague take priority over individual league, Flash ABSOLUTELY dominated proleague and won (unlike Sea, and thus bringing first ever proleague win for KTF) with unprecedant 50+ wins, while achieving the never achieved 70+% on all match ups. That cannot be taken lightly. Not to mention, within the SAME season, Flash enters BOTH of the individual league's finals(also Back to Back that is) and wins another medal. That means Flash had to prepare for 3 leagues at once. No bonjwas had ever shown such dominance over short period of time. Going against your theory, no bonjwa was ever perfect. Like I mentioned in the previous posts, Savior had SO MANY legit contenders when compared to Flash (Jaedong being his only contender).-Savior was never the favorite against Chojja, zvz god at the time. Chojja always had the best of Savior. -Savior was never the favorite against Hwasin. At the time of Bo5 against Hwasin, the maps were so ridiculously Terran-Favored, savior went in game as the underdog (upto certain extent, which was proven wrong, which made Savior a legacy, a bonjwa). -Savior always had tough match against Irish. Remember Savior vs Iris game FIVE? It is considered one of the best game ever played and alot of people's personal favorite. Why? Because it shows how close Iris was beating Savior in bo5. Just one dropship away. (Another Savior's legacy) -Midas was never scared of Savior. Midas was always confident that he could beat Savior, he challenged Savior back to back because he firmly believed that he actually had a good shot against Savior. And many people thought so too. Just because Flash has a great contender like Jaedong doesn't make him a less of a bonjwa. **I used Savior as main example because the term bonjwa was first invented to describe Savior's state of dominance. But every other bonjwa can be replaced for same reasoning. And here is where you whole paragraph before this sentece gets raped Explain?...
I thought it was obvious... in the paragraph before that sentence he says that flash deserves his bonjwa status or whatnot based on him owning everyone, having 70% winrate, "Flash ABSOLUTELY dominated proleague" etc... and then he basically said, well unlike Savior - Flash had no real competition except JD. see what i mean?
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On May 31 2010 18:03 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 17:12 SturmAddict wrote:
You cannot "hide" a 2 hatch muta from a terran unless you block your ramp at 10. Even then your natural drone count will definitely unhide your strategy to them.
As long as terran see's that your extractor and spawning pool up around the same time (checking via HP), and your drone-to-mineral-left ratio not that high, its pretty obvious that it would be 2 hatch lurkers or mutalisks.
Terran will just opt to change BO by speeding up his e-bay for earlier turrets. I know, but Flash can be pretty stubborn about not building turrets even when he knows it's coming and after a 14CC everything is delayed. I still think he should have tried it in at least one of the games. It didn't seem right to let Flash get away with three 14CCs in a row.
in game 1, flash did get turrets early.
in game 2, flash scouted the 3rd hatch, so he knew it can not be 2 hatch muta
in game 3, flash was already getting 2 fact gols in anticipation of fast muta only to scout the hydra right after.
so i dont think 2hatch muta would work for JD.
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On May 31 2010 20:13 CROrens wrote:
I thought it was obvious... in the paragraph before that sentence he says that flash deserves his bonjwa status or whatnot based on him owning everyone, having 70% winrate, "Flash ABSOLUTELY dominated proleague" etc... and then he basically said, well unlike Savior - Flash had no real competition except JD. see what i mean?
well, oov also had july as a great rival. july won 2 of his OSL's during oov's reign. oov actually had fewer titles and final appearances than JD but was undisputed champion of his time.
title counts mean something but missing a title or two does not mean failure to be bonjwa.
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EPT
