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On May 30 2010 13:18 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2010 13:06 FreshVegetables wrote:On May 30 2010 08:35 Roffles wrote:On May 30 2010 08:20 hypercube wrote:On May 30 2010 02:53 Roffles wrote:
You serious? I see this a week after Effort destroyed him with pretty much just zerglings. Duh, he's not perfect. He still delivered 3 out of 5 times this season, which is pretty good for a choker. Never called him a choker. Don't pull random shit outta your ass. Was just responding to another ridiculous claim of Flash bonjwa. Well, you're ridiculous if ur saying that flash isnt bonjwa now. I am one of the top Flash Fans. I've rarely missed a game. I despise mirror games even though TvT is usually the best out of them, but the only TvT I watch is if flash is playing. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. The qualifications are clear. Chances are there won't be a last bonjwa before SC2 takes over. His best chance will be to become the last GREAT player if he dominates the rest of the tournaments whatever is left of SC1 (imo a more entertaining game). It would be a slim chance to be bonjwa, but not impossilbe. Win PL + MSL + OSL and I wouldn't mind anyone claiming that, but he doesn't do it like the bonjwas of the past just yet. I'm glad he won. His strategy was perfect vs jaedong. Stop muta harrass and stop jaedong. Why? Because JD's late game starts much earlier if he can delay your econ / push time. I hope there is one clear winner between the two of them before this game dies out, but neither can be crowned bonjwa until they establish clear dominance over the other. Just my 2 cents, heres to hoping there are several more years of SC1 dominating SC2 
Mind explaining what those qualifications are?
Also at this time and age, where proleague take priority over individual league, Flash ABSOLUTELY dominated proleague and won (unlike Sea, and thus bringing first ever proleague win for KTF) with unprecedant 50+ wins, while achieving the never achieved 70+% on all match ups. That cannot be taken lightly. Not to mention, within the SAME season, Flash enters BOTH of the individual league's finals(also Back to Back that is) and wins another medal. That means Flash had to prepare for 3 leagues at once. No bonjwas had ever shown such dominance over short period of time.
Going against your theory, no bonjwa was ever perfect.
Like I mentioned in the previous posts, Savior had SO MANY legit contenders when compared to Flash (Jaedong being his only contender).
-Savior was never the favorite against Chojja, zvz god at the time. Chojja always had the best of Savior.
-Savior was never the favorite against Hwasin. At the time of Bo5 against Hwasin, the maps were so ridiculously Terran-Favored, savior went in game as the underdog (upto certain extent, which was proven wrong, which made Savior a legacy, a bonjwa).
-Savior always had tough match against Irish. Remember Savior vs Iris game FIVE? It is considered one of the best game ever played and alot of people's personal favorite. Why? Because it shows how close Iris was beating Savior in bo5. Just one dropship away. (Another Savior's legacy)
-Midas was never scared of Savior. Midas was always confident that he could beat Savior, he challenged Savior back to back because he firmly believed that he actually had a good shot against Savior. And many people thought so too.
Just because Flash has a great contender like Jaedong doesn't make him a less of a bonjwa.
**I used Savior as main example because the term bonjwa was first invented to describe Savior's state of dominance. But every other bonjwa can be replaced for same reasoning.
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On May 30 2010 13:18 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2010 13:06 FreshVegetables wrote:On May 30 2010 08:35 Roffles wrote:On May 30 2010 08:20 hypercube wrote:On May 30 2010 02:53 Roffles wrote:
You serious? I see this a week after Effort destroyed him with pretty much just zerglings. Duh, he's not perfect. He still delivered 3 out of 5 times this season, which is pretty good for a choker. Never called him a choker. Don't pull random shit outta your ass. Was just responding to another ridiculous claim of Flash bonjwa. Well, you're ridiculous if ur saying that flash isnt bonjwa now. I am one of the top Flash Fans. I've rarely missed a game. I despise mirror games even though TvT is usually the best out of them, but the only TvT I watch is if flash is playing. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. The qualifications are clear. Chances are there won't be a last bonjwa before SC2 takes over. His best chance will be to become the last GREAT player if he dominates the rest of the tournaments whatever is left of SC1 (imo a more entertaining game). It would be a slim chance to be bonjwa, but not impossilbe. Win PL + MSL + OSL and I wouldn't mind anyone claiming that, but he doesn't do it like the bonjwas of the past just yet. I'm glad he won. His strategy was perfect vs jaedong. Stop muta harrass and stop jaedong. Why? Because JD's late game starts much earlier if he can delay your econ / push time. I hope there is one clear winner between the two of them before this game dies out, but neither can be crowned bonjwa until they establish clear dominance over the other. Just my 2 cents, heres to hoping there are several more years of SC1 dominating SC2
This part is unnecessary to your argument.
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I just don't think you can say he is or jaedong isn't. There is meant to be one clear winner among a period of time and his/jaedong's period of time overlaps. If/when there is the next encounter AND next title won I believe one of them should own it. They flip flop their positions. I do agree that proleague adds another challenge into the mixture. But is one team effort enough to put flash over the top? I didn't think jaedongs MSL title last year made him one either. If flash had won both would my opinion change? Probably. But who here is the clearly DOMINATES the other one? Neither yet and I do believe that was clear that during all eras that even though saviors wins were spread out nobody would beat him on a regular basis.
Now on the flip side if you do believe Flash's total accomplishments make him a Bonjwa already then perhaps jaedong is as well? Their accomplishments are not unlike.
On May 30 2010 14:30 Liquid_Turbo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2010 13:18 NoobSkills wrote:On May 30 2010 13:06 FreshVegetables wrote:On May 30 2010 08:35 Roffles wrote:On May 30 2010 08:20 hypercube wrote:On May 30 2010 02:53 Roffles wrote:
You serious? I see this a week after Effort destroyed him with pretty much just zerglings. Duh, he's not perfect. He still delivered 3 out of 5 times this season, which is pretty good for a choker. Never called him a choker. Don't pull random shit outta your ass. Was just responding to another ridiculous claim of Flash bonjwa. Well, you're ridiculous if ur saying that flash isnt bonjwa now. I am one of the top Flash Fans. I've rarely missed a game. I despise mirror games even though TvT is usually the best out of them, but the only TvT I watch is if flash is playing. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. The qualifications are clear. Chances are there won't be a last bonjwa before SC2 takes over. His best chance will be to become the last GREAT player if he dominates the rest of the tournaments whatever is left of SC1 (imo a more entertaining game). It would be a slim chance to be bonjwa, but not impossilbe. Win PL + MSL + OSL and I wouldn't mind anyone claiming that, but he doesn't do it like the bonjwas of the past just yet. I'm glad he won. His strategy was perfect vs jaedong. Stop muta harrass and stop jaedong. Why? Because JD's late game starts much earlier if he can delay your econ / push time. I hope there is one clear winner between the two of them before this game dies out, but neither can be crowned bonjwa until they establish clear dominance over the other. Just my 2 cents, heres to hoping there are several more years of SC1 dominating SC2 This part is unnecessary to your argument.
Many cry fanboy of JD or Flash.
I have had zero responses to either side yet.
Less name calling more discussion. Which is why I added it.
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This time they met solid 3-0. Last time there was power outtage controversy (which is a damn shame). Commentators in Korea acknowledge him as Bonjwa. There really is no discussion.
Koreans invented the world Bonjwa, so when they use it, they use it to their definition. Not some own definition that fanboys of other players make up.
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A I don’t think I’m hands down the best player yet. Today’s win just provided the stepping stones to help me keep up with (Z)Jaedong hyung – I believe it’s too early to say I’ve completely overcome (Z)Jaedong hyung and become the strongest player. What I said in the pre-game interviews was just pre-game interviews (laughs). I believe I haven’t beaten (Z)Jaedong hyung in all aspects yet. Now I’ve pulled ahead a bit in head to heads but in terms of careers, there are still a lot of areas in which I lack. (Z)Jaedong hyung said he would block me getting both league titles. For my part, I worked hard to prevent (Z)Jaedong hyung from getting his golden badge so I just grabbed the chance to keep up with him. I feel like we will continue to meet in the future.
Flash's words.
Isn't the main rule there must be no actual contender who could consistently beat you? Just one MSL JD did. They're even. I don't think either has clear dominance over the other. I do agree that his PL + This win of JD puts him and JD on the same level. Perhaps I'm wrong but wasn't JD pretty clutch for a bad team in PL? I mean how do rank team achievements with an individuals skill level. I think Flash will wind up beating JD again and prove he is the most dominate, but what does it mean if you win one MSL and lost the other to the same guy? I'd put it at even.
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On May 30 2010 14:55 NoobSkills wrote:
A I don’t think I’m hands down the best player yet. Today’s win just provided the stepping stones to help me keep up with (Z)Jaedong hyung – I believe it’s too early to say I’ve completely overcome (Z)Jaedong hyung and become the strongest player. What I said in the pre-game interviews was just pre-game interviews (laughs). I believe I haven’t beaten (Z)Jaedong hyung in all aspects yet. Now I’ve pulled ahead a bit in head to heads but in terms of careers, there are still a lot of areas in which I lack. (Z)Jaedong hyung said he would block me getting both league titles. For my part, I worked hard to prevent (Z)Jaedong hyung from getting his golden badge so I just grabbed the chance to keep up with him. I feel like we will continue to meet in the future.
Flash's words.
Isn't the main rule there must be no actual contender who could consistently beat you? Just one MSL JD did. They're even. I don't think either has clear dominance over the other. I do agree that his PL + This win of JD puts him and JD on the same level. Perhaps I'm wrong but wasn't JD pretty clutch for a bad team in PL? I mean how do rank team achievements with an individuals skill level. I think Flash will wind up beating JD again and prove he is the most dominate, but what does it mean if you win one MSL and lost the other to the same guy? I'd put it at even.
Yes, because in Korean culture, it's suitable to say "I am Bonjwa!!"
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On May 30 2010 14:54 Liquid_Turbo wrote:
This time they met solid 3-0. Last time there was power outtage controversy (which is a damn shame). Commentators in Korea acknowledge him as Bonjwa. There really is no discussion.
Koreans invented the world Bonjwa, so when they use it, they use it to their definition. Not some own definition that fanboys of other players make up.
Exactly the name calling I tried to avoid.
Koreans invented it. Koreans translated the meaning.
Says you must be dominate.
He cannot dominate JD 24/7.
He won by nullifying JD's mutas in two matches on Terran favored maps.
He lost the last MSL. He lost this OSL (to a lower ranked Z)
Sorry, he will most likely be dominate this coming season and earn his title, but if that is the description of dominance the NYG dominate football.
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On May 30 2010 15:04 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2010 14:54 Liquid_Turbo wrote:
This time they met solid 3-0. Last time there was power outtage controversy (which is a damn shame). Commentators in Korea acknowledge him as Bonjwa. There really is no discussion.
Koreans invented the world Bonjwa, so when they use it, they use it to their definition. Not some own definition that fanboys of other players make up.
Exactly the name calling I tried to avoid. Koreans invented it. Koreans translated the meaning. Says you must be dominate. He cannot dominate JD 24/7. He won by nullifying JD's mutas in two matches on Terran favored maps. He lost the last MSL. He lost this OSL (to a lower ranked Z) Sorry, he will most likely be dominate this coming season and earn his title, but if that is the description of dominance the NYG dominate football.
By 'losing' the OSL and MSL you mean he received silver. Even Mr. Ma has a few Silvers under his belt.
Korean's call him bonjwa. This is the reality of the situation. How else you decide to interpret it is your business.
I choose to stick with reality.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Heh.
Is Flash really a bonjwa...
We'll see.
Edit: SHIT I POSTED FROM THE WRONG ACCOUNT AUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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^exposed.
lol fanboys still arguing over the flash bonjwa thingy?
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On May 30 2010 14:37 NoobSkills wrote:I just don't think you can say he is or jaedong isn't. There is meant to be one clear winner among a period of time and his/jaedong's period of time overlaps. If/when there is the next encounter AND next title won I believe one of them should own it. They flip flop their positions. I do agree that proleague adds another challenge into the mixture. But is one team effort enough to put flash over the top? I didn't think jaedongs MSL title last year made him one either. If flash had won both would my opinion change? Probably. But who here is the clearly DOMINATES the other one? Neither yet and I do believe that was clear that during all eras that even though saviors wins were spread out nobody would beat him on a regular basis. Now on the flip side if you do believe Flash's total accomplishments make him a Bonjwa already then perhaps jaedong is as well? Their accomplishments are not unlike. Show nested quote +On May 30 2010 14:30 Liquid_Turbo wrote:On May 30 2010 13:18 NoobSkills wrote:On May 30 2010 13:06 FreshVegetables wrote:On May 30 2010 08:35 Roffles wrote:On May 30 2010 08:20 hypercube wrote:On May 30 2010 02:53 Roffles wrote:
You serious? I see this a week after Effort destroyed him with pretty much just zerglings. Duh, he's not perfect. He still delivered 3 out of 5 times this season, which is pretty good for a choker. Never called him a choker. Don't pull random shit outta your ass. Was just responding to another ridiculous claim of Flash bonjwa. Well, you're ridiculous if ur saying that flash isnt bonjwa now. I am one of the top Flash Fans. I've rarely missed a game. I despise mirror games even though TvT is usually the best out of them, but the only TvT I watch is if flash is playing. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. The qualifications are clear. Chances are there won't be a last bonjwa before SC2 takes over. His best chance will be to become the last GREAT player if he dominates the rest of the tournaments whatever is left of SC1 (imo a more entertaining game). It would be a slim chance to be bonjwa, but not impossilbe. Win PL + MSL + OSL and I wouldn't mind anyone claiming that, but he doesn't do it like the bonjwas of the past just yet. I'm glad he won. His strategy was perfect vs jaedong. Stop muta harrass and stop jaedong. Why? Because JD's late game starts much earlier if he can delay your econ / push time. I hope there is one clear winner between the two of them before this game dies out, but neither can be crowned bonjwa until they establish clear dominance over the other. Just my 2 cents, heres to hoping there are several more years of SC1 dominating SC2 This part is unnecessary to your argument. Many cry fanboy of JD or Flash. I have had zero responses to either side yet. Less name calling more discussion. Which is why I added it.
You just disapproved every sinlge bonjwas to be nonbonjwas.
There are four names that are linked to Bonjwa status, Boxer, Nada, Oov, Savior.
Boxer never dominated. Players like Reach, protoss in general, killed Boxer over and over. But he's still Bonjwa.
Nada was the most consistant out of the four, yet he still had difficulties. GoRush, Oov, Savior all dominated at the same time. Just like Jaedong is dominating in Flash's era. We still call Nada bonjwa, don't we?
Oov had a very short spurt like Flash is having. Oov dominated alot in very short frame of time. And yet, oov still had difficulties, aka, July. July dominated during Oov's era. Oov is still recognized as Bonjwa and soon after disappeared from proscene thanks to shower.
Savior, explained previously.
So based on your opinion of bonjwa, not a single player in the world can be considered Bonjwa.
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Wonder who made that wiki page.. 본좌: 本座. 너네들보다 훨씬 높은 이 자리에 있는 나. I who am in a much higher seat than you. 단순히 자기높임 뿐만이 아니라 자기높임 + 상대낮춤이 복합된 용어인데... Pretty much means other players vsing player in question is considered the underdog. Question raised: when has Flash ever not been considered playing against the underdog in the last several months? Imo this one final, the MSL vs Jaedong. No matter what, a 3-0 is pretty significant, against Jaedong no less. No unnecessary fanboyism, but by the books meaning of the term, Flash next bonjwa.
sidenote: Jaedong is also considered bonjwa by korean commentators too, see commentary in some game vs midas in msl. no bias. (Lee X2 Republic of Korea supporter)
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So this is what some of SC1's final memories are going to be. Some gay ass argument about who is Bonjwa and what that word means. Ridiculous.
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^ SC1 not dead yet, son. +1 MSL
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On May 30 2010 08:16 uniplex wrote:
I think this is akin to basketball. Just like Bonjwa you don't throw around the label GOAT(greatest of all time) for any NBA players. So far only Jordan and Kareem has earned that distinction. Flash isn't there yet, but he is on pace to be considered one of the greatest in SC history.
lmao. When I first read G.O.A.T, I was like wtf does that stand for? Since I saw it in the context of sc and in regards to Flash, I thought it meant 'God of All Terran' but I guess greatest of all time works too. Rofllllllllllll
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off to drown my tears in porn. jesus i hate flash.
JD didn't play well, to my mind. i pray for zerg
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I think the funniest thing about reading bonjwa arguments is that it really exposes what a victim of his own success Flash is here. He's dominated more than anyone before him this last year, but in an ironic twist, because he's so good that's not enough. Now for some people he has to go even further. Not enough to get dual finals twice in a row and win two of them, he actually has to win all 4 of them  I guess that's what happens when you're just that good.
Doubt Flash cares though, and neither do I. This is Flash's era, and that's what matters
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2 more finals please Flash
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Flash just needs more time to achieve proportionately to his skill. Achieving like this is already impressive as there are not many 18-years with 3 SL golds, 2 SL silvers and 80%+ win rate in Proleague.
If he keeps developing like this, when he grows a little older to like 20~21 years old (Jaedong's age) he may become truly unbeatable.
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EPT
