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[MSL] Grand Final - Page 151

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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Titusmaster6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5937 Posts
May 29 2010 22:58 GMT
#3001
Man I really applaude Flash for his winning mentality. He truly is a champion, to watch everything fall apart and getting up again to reclaim glory is something not every individual can do.

This kid has heart.
Shorts down shorts up, BOOM, just like that.
SturmAddict
Profile Joined October 2009
Malaysia176 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-29 23:08:13
May 29 2010 23:07 GMT
#3002
whats a bonjwa?


Bonjwa is a title given when you have 75% chanceyou are an incredible, hats off own everyone in your era (ie 65%+ win rate + starleague wins + tons of all-kill in proleague) for a year or two. Legend for everyone to remember. Revolutionize starcraft over and over etc etc. Introduce mechanics etc etc.







and 25% of the time you are just a mediocre gonna-slump player who only knows how to sell games for $$ .
Serpico
Profile Joined May 2010
4285 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-29 23:09:38
May 29 2010 23:09 GMT
#3003
In terms of accomplishments, flash isnt there yet, but isnt he like 17? In terms of play, he's up there with the best ever at this moment in time. If he sustains that and brings home the hardware for his trophy case then he will be the best ever. That hasnt happened yet though.
uniplex
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1 Post
May 29 2010 23:16 GMT
#3004
I think this is akin to basketball. Just like Bonjwa you don't throw around the label GOAT(greatest of all time) for any NBA players. So far only Jordan and Kareem has earned that distinction. Flash isn't there yet, but he is on pace to be considered one of the greatest in SC history.
Serpico
Profile Joined May 2010
4285 Posts
May 29 2010 23:19 GMT
#3005
On May 30 2010 08:16 uniplex wrote:
I think this is akin to basketball. Just like Bonjwa you don't throw around the label GOAT(greatest of all time) for any NBA players. So far only Jordan and Kareem has earned that distinction. Flash isn't there yet, but he is on pace to be considered one of the greatest in SC history.



Exactly, it isnt like his level of play isnt there, but you need the list of accomplishments to enter that next level of greatness.
hypercube
Profile Joined April 2010
Hungary2735 Posts
May 29 2010 23:20 GMT
#3006
On May 30 2010 02:53 Roffles wrote:
You serious? I see this a week after Effort destroyed him with pretty much just zerglings.


Duh, he's not perfect. He still delivered 3 out of 5 times this season, which is pretty good for a choker.
"Sending people in rockets to other planets is a waste of money better spent on sending rockets into people on this planet."
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-29 23:35:36
May 29 2010 23:35 GMT
#3007
On May 30 2010 08:20 hypercube wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2010 02:53 Roffles wrote:
You serious? I see this a week after Effort destroyed him with pretty much just zerglings.


Duh, he's not perfect. He still delivered 3 out of 5 times this season, which is pretty good for a choker.

Never called him a choker. Don't pull random shit outta your ass.

Was just responding to another ridiculous claim of Flash bonjwa.
God Bless
dybydx
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada1764 Posts
May 29 2010 23:36 GMT
#3008
well.. in term of title count, flash got 3 starleagues + GOM. so hes met that requirement. he is pwning everyone at the moment, JD included. so hes got dominance. his loss to effort is more like an exception than the rule. even the korean commentators are talking about the flash era. not JD era, not effort era, its flash era.
...from the land of imba
kawatan
Profile Joined January 2010
288 Posts
May 29 2010 23:39 GMT
#3009
didn't watch fearing i'd collapse due to the intensity, but man i sure did miss out on flash's finest.

14cc X 3
signature impeccable defense
signature unit: ending with goliaths
on matchpoint 7 o clock

the epicness was truly a sight to behold
10or10
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Sweden517 Posts
May 29 2010 23:48 GMT
#3010
wow that was a disappointing finals, nothing entertaining after the sunken line was breeched in the first game.

I wanted flash to win since he has been so good this year but just before it began when I went "home" again... too bad.

Congratulations to flash though he really deserved the win.
|| @10or10 || 이영호 이제동 - 화이팅 ^^ ||
hypercube
Profile Joined April 2010
Hungary2735 Posts
May 30 2010 00:02 GMT
#3011
On May 30 2010 08:35 Roffles wrote:

Never called him a choker. Don't pull random shit outta your ass.

Was just responding to another ridiculous claim of Flash bonjwa.


Never said you did. It's just how a lot of people saw Flash before his second OSL win.

If you think Flash isn't bonjwa that's fine. But it's becouse he hasn't been around long enough or only got really, really good recently. It has (almost) nothing to do with his recent performance, which is more than worthy of the title.
"Sending people in rockets to other planets is a waste of money better spent on sending rockets into people on this planet."
FusionCutter
Profile Joined October 2004
Canada974 Posts
May 30 2010 00:21 GMT
#3012
On May 30 2010 08:35 Roffles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2010 08:20 hypercube wrote:
On May 30 2010 02:53 Roffles wrote:
You serious? I see this a week after Effort destroyed him with pretty much just zerglings.


Duh, he's not perfect. He still delivered 3 out of 5 times this season, which is pretty good for a choker.

Never called him a choker. Don't pull random shit outta your ass.

Was just responding to another ridiculous claim of Flash bonjwa.


Even commentators call him Bonjwa. I know, hard for you to accept.
darktreb
Profile Joined May 2007
United States3019 Posts
May 30 2010 00:25 GMT
#3013
On May 30 2010 08:35 Roffles wrote:
Was just responding to another ridiculous claim of Flash bonjwa.


I agree that he's not bonjwa, but I don't think claiming that he is is completely ridiculous. He got very close and now he clearly isn't again and people are late to figuring it out, but still.
NurseArial
Profile Joined March 2010
Belarus109 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-30 00:34:07
May 30 2010 00:32 GMT
#3014
On May 30 2010 06:02 Craton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2010 05:58 NurseArial wrote:
On May 30 2010 05:53 SkytoM wrote:
A bonjwa is an intellegent guy. Flash isn't. How could you lose that OSL Final?

If you think Flash isn't an intelligent player you should probably stop commenting on progaming in general. Flash has gotten to where he is because of his brilliance as a strategist and his unparalleled ability to adapt. He doesn't do the smartest thing 100% of the time, but I've yet to see a game sense and understanding on his level.

?

Flash is known for his mechanical, macro style. He's never been a great strategist. He has very good game sense, yes, but having good timing doesn't equate to having inventive strategies.


Show nested quote +
But there's not much dispute that he's the best player of all time as in "plays the game the best of anyone ever

Actually, there's a hell of a lot of dispute. I'll go ahead and cast my vote against it.


He is known for his mechanical "macro style" by people who don't understand how him and his play, I agree. He revolutionized TvP within his first year of progaming, continued to dominate top PvTers even after they dissected his revolutionary fast-armory style and has continued to innovate and reinvent each match-up he plays. He has been a trend setter since 2008. I don't know where this idea has come from that Flash has just now started to be one of the best players around. Bacchus must be remembered, that was a very very very important finals as well as the GSI finals preceding it.

Just because he isn't flashy doesn't mean he isn't smart. Everything doesn't have to be so obvious.
Sprouter
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1724 Posts
May 30 2010 00:41 GMT
#3015
jaedong can't beat 12 scv repair

grats to flash
EntertainMe
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
864 Posts
May 30 2010 00:57 GMT
#3016
On May 30 2010 05:49 Hot_Bid wrote:
if lots of people are arguing about whether someone is a bonjwa, he's not a bonjwa. its more of a psychological thing than a statistical thing. i don't think anyone disputed oov or savior's "bonjwaness." the fact that so many kids wouldn't call Flash bonjwa means he isn't one. you need consensus.


I agree with this post to certain extent.
Yes, bonjwa does not have clear cut definition. Being a bonjwa is based on the consensus. However, if you look at the big picture. IMO (dont quote me on this), but my general impression while in Korea and while I browse through Korean starcraft websites is that over 90% population is already in agreement that Flash has reached bonjwa status and some who puts Flash above bonjwa status. And as much as I respect and love TL community, looking through general perspective, Flash is already bonjwa.
Jayme
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States5866 Posts
May 30 2010 01:16 GMT
#3017
On May 30 2010 08:35 Roffles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2010 08:20 hypercube wrote:
On May 30 2010 02:53 Roffles wrote:
You serious? I see this a week after Effort destroyed him with pretty much just zerglings.


Duh, he's not perfect. He still delivered 3 out of 5 times this season, which is pretty good for a choker.

Never called him a choker. Don't pull random shit outta your ass.

Was just responding to another ridiculous claim of Flash bonjwa.


I find it hilarious that you immediately claim flash as bonjwa ridiculous because he lost an OSL FINAL 3-2 when say savior never even qualified for an OSL until the one he won. Nobody had a problem naming him bonjwa.

I don't care either way. I have considered flash a onjwa for awhile now because that's what he is..a damn favorite against anyone. The TL consensus is largely irrelevant to me because there will always be enough diehards that naysay.
Python is garbage, number 1 advocate of getting rid of it.
EntertainMe
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
864 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-30 02:09:53
May 30 2010 01:17 GMT
#3018
On May 30 2010 05:55 Roffles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2010 05:52 PanzerDragoon wrote:
On May 30 2010 05:15 Roffles wrote:
On May 30 2010 04:51 PanzerDragoon wrote:
On May 30 2010 04:48 Roffles wrote:
On May 30 2010 04:41 SolaX wrote:
On May 30 2010 04:40 iloahz wrote:
I refuse to call flash bonjwa. It's an insult to flash if his godlike play is downplayed to something as lowly as "bonjwa". Flash is dominating more than anyone ever before.



Wrong, there were clearly more dominating players in the past.

Nah, I wouldn't say they were more dominant. Players like Oov and Mr. Ma back in the days faced great competition. I just don't think that players back then were as good as they are now. There really weren't other really really good players back in the days that could challenge them on a consistent basis. Oov and Savior were pretty much the clear cut favorite in EVERY game. What makes Flash's case different is that you can't legitimately say he's the clear cut favorite in EVERY game. Half the people thought Jaedong would win, just attesting to how good Jaedong is as well.

The level of competition today is simply too great. Other players are absolutely amazing too. It's just that Flash is arguably the best of the best today. But that doesn't mean he's clear cut favorite over everyone.

So your argument is...


players today are better
Flash has an absolutely insane win percentage against these better players


therefore


Flash isn't as dominant?


Does not compute

My argument is: Flash isn't the clear cut favorite in every single game. I've stated this explicitly NUMEROUS times. I don't get why you can't grasp this concept.

Anyone with a brain knows by the numbers hes a clearcut favorite in every game.

So you're gonna discount the 14 progamers who believed that Jaedong would win the MSL Finals right? 10 voted for Flash, 14 for Jaedong. Okay, you do that. There are no requirements for being a bonjwa, the only one is that of being the favored player in every matchup. The fact that 14 out of 24 voted for Jaedong tells you that he's not at that level yet.


Sorry, but I don't agree with this post.
Savior was not always the favorite to win.
Whenever he played against Hwasin, Nada, Iris, Midas, Savior was never clear favorite. Even if he was slight favorite, was never anything marginal. Maybe 52 - 48 ish. Heck Hwasin repeatedly won vs savior in short BO3 (but never BO5 and when it actually counted, but to his credit always 2-3 loss).

Also Chojja DESTROYED Savior everytime they met, while savior prime. Has huge one sided stats favoring Chojja, but then again, Chojja destroyed ALL zerg while he played.

Compared to that, Flash is HEAVY favorite against most of the progamer today, except against Jaedong, but ONLY because he lost to effort a week before. If progamers were to predict the winner before OSL took place, Flash wouldve came out as insanely heavy favorite even above Jaedong.
Redshirt
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
434 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-30 01:44:01
May 30 2010 01:39 GMT
#3019
Savior was known as the bonjwa because he'd constantly win against the very best terrans on some of the most god awful maps as well as completely raping most protoss players, like how ever top zerg does, left and right.

Beside that, he was just an extremely good player. I think people really overblow his reputation as some god man thing that would never lose games. The reality is that he lost a decent number of games fairly regularly. The real god man thing was Oov and that was because he came out of nowhere and started raping people like crazy left and right.
roymarthyup
Profile Joined April 2010
1442 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-30 01:41:36
May 30 2010 01:40 GMT
#3020
i think if jaedong scouted with like a early 9drone or something (9scout 10scout on bigger maps) and made overlord and pumped up to 16food or something while scouting flashes base he could counter the 14cc


if your drone goes into flashes base and scouts him building a command center, you build your second hatchery at 14-16 food INSIDE THE TERRANS BASE before the terran can complete the wall off of 14cc. after you 14-16hatch inside the terrans base you make like a 15-17pool at your base then you highly saturate your main base with like 2.5 drones per mineral patch (stop mining gas if you see 14cc) while pumping zerglings from your hatchery inside the terrans base


1 hatchery can make 2 zerglings every 10 seconds and should beat the marines and come out around the time of a 14cc barracks



does anyone else think if JD did this he could beat flash's 14cc?
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