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On May 30 2010 05:58 NurseArial wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2010 05:53 SkytoM wrote:
A bonjwa is an intellegent guy. Flash isn't. How could you lose that OSL Final? If you think Flash isn't an intelligent player you should probably stop commenting on progaming in general. Flash has gotten to where he is because of his brilliance as a strategist and his unparalleled ability to adapt. He doesn't do the smartest thing 100% of the time, but I've yet to see a game sense and understanding on his level.
?
Flash is known for his mechanical, macro style. He's never been a great strategist. He has very good game sense, yes, but having good timing doesn't equate to having inventive strategies.
But there's not much dispute that he's the best player of all time as in "plays the game the best of anyone ever
Actually, there's a hell of a lot of dispute. I'll go ahead and cast my vote against it.
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Blind 14CC and blind 3hatch before pool are risky openings, but not cheese.
3hatch before pool with scout first and 14CC with scout first isn't risky, its adaption after scouting.
I'm glad we sorted that out.
You may say Jaedong played like "utter shit" in this series, but you don't know how close it was that Jaedong won game 1 and game 3. He was cutting as many corners as he could to keep up with Flash's 14cc and when you do that you can look silly if you lose and godlike if you win.
The line is very thin, but Jaedong certainly didn't play shitty this series.
On May 30 2010 06:02 Craton wrote:
Flash is known for his mechanical, macro style. He's never been a great strategist. He has very good game sense, yes, but having good timing doesn't equate to having inventive strategies.
Not every strategy Flash pulls of is as "shiny" or as pleasent to the eye as Fantasy's strategies.
But you cannot deny the things he do.
From a strategical point of view, almost everything Flash does is genius.
His strategies are of the sort that gets him into an advantageus position lategame and to the untrained eye sometimes it's hard to see every little move that gets him there.
He is known for his macro/mechanics but he's one of the best strategists to ever play the game and his understanding of the gameflow is flawless.
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On May 30 2010 06:02 Craton wrote:
Flash is known for his mechanical, macro style. He's never been a great strategist. He has very good game sense, yes, but having good timing doesn't equate to having inventive strategies.
This was perhaps true a year ago.
Fall 2009-Spring 2010 was a long display of Flash destroying everyone with every possible combination of tricks in the terran arsenal. Really, the way Flash has mixed and refined strategies over the last few months is the main reason why he has been so successful.
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On May 30 2010 06:02 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2010 05:58 NurseArial wrote:On May 30 2010 05:53 SkytoM wrote:
A bonjwa is an intellegent guy. Flash isn't. How could you lose that OSL Final? If you think Flash isn't an intelligent player you should probably stop commenting on progaming in general. Flash has gotten to where he is because of his brilliance as a strategist and his unparalleled ability to adapt. He doesn't do the smartest thing 100% of the time, but I've yet to see a game sense and understanding on his level. ? Flash is known for his mechanical, macro style. He's never been a great strategist. He has very good game sense, yes, but having good timing doesn't equate to having inventive strategies. Show nested quote +But there's not much dispute that he's the best player of all time as in "plays the game the best of anyone ever Actually, there's a hell of a lot of dispute. I'll go ahead and cast my vote against it.
Flash's "inventiveness" is very subtle. He didn't invent something like the forge fast expo or something, but he did invent the double armory build and many subtle management changes. In addition his good game sense shows that he has a deep understanding and a very quick mind. This is also shown through his crisis management. Even if Flash isn't creative (which I dispute) creativity=/= smart. You can still be a smart player and be uncreative per se. Flash's smarts comes from that fact that he really does know how to react to each situation and his sheer understanding of starcraft.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
SkyToM is ridiculously wrong. It's not even funny. Flash displays some of the sickest starsense EVER. His timing, gamesense is off the charts at times. If that's not smart, then what is?
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On May 30 2010 05:53 SkytoM wrote:
A bonjwa is an intellegent guy. Flash isn't. How could you lose that OSL Final?
how can Oov slip during shower??
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On May 30 2010 06:38 anch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2010 05:53 SkytoM wrote:
A bonjwa is an intellegent guy. Flash isn't. How could you lose that OSL Final? how can Oov slip during shower??
Because he drops a banana peel in there?
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On May 30 2010 06:02 Craton wrote:Flash is known for his mechanical, macro style. He's never been a great strategist. He has very good game sense, yes, but having good timing doesn't equate to having inventive strategies.
What about Flash's build called the "Flash build" TvP to counter carriers or his biomech build TvZ?
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ah such a disappointing series. Will we ever get another epic 5 game final like iris vs ggplay or july vs goodfrield?
this series reminds me of 2 different times flash and jaedong played: 1st when jaedong 3-0d flash in GOM season 1. It was a lot more 1-sided than anyone thought possible and a lot less epic than it should of been since they both got their asses kicked by ForGG 2 weeks beforehand. I think the outcome of the OSL/MSL was so much least epic than it could of been. If flash won both then that'd be awesome becuase no one ever won 2 finals at the same time before. If JD won the MSL then that would be so cool for JD tying nada for most starleague titles and defeating flash once again.
Im also reminded of the game where JD 9pooled flash's 14CC in an ace match game back in like 2008 and I thought to myself "JD will always have the mental edge over flash."
game 1 JD did some cool shit with that double defiler mound into super fast plague/consume, but I feel like he could of won if he just got lurkers instead of trying to go straight to ultras :\
game 2 I was fucking slamming my head against a wall when JD never backstabbed flash after he moved out. NO TURRETS. I guess JD didn't know that though and flash took a big gamble and it paid off really well.
game 3 I was so pissed at JD lol. After he sniped 2 tanks and flash had to pull all his SCVs from his nat to repair bunker, JD should of just sat there with hydras and double expanded instead of trying to go for the kill 2 more times before expanding :\ god I felt so awful after game 3.
Oh well. im sure in the next KT vs Oz match flash and JD will play and JD will win becuase that's just how it is with these 2. always trading games.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On May 30 2010 07:04 Veetz wrote:
whats a bonjwa?
That's an excellent question!
+ Show Spoiler +
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On May 30 2010 07:04 Veetz wrote:
whats a bonjwa?
It's a conspiracy to make more anti-Flash fans.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 30 2010 05:59 Emon_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2010 05:49 Hot_Bid wrote:
if lots of people are arguing about whether someone is a bonjwa, he's not a bonjwa. its more of a psychological thing than a statistical thing. i don't think anyone disputed oov or savior's "bonjwaness." the fact that so many kids wouldn't call Flash bonjwa means he isn't one. you need consensus. If Flash had gotten two gold medals in dominating fashion, he would have been the next bonjwa
Considering only one other bonjwa has ever done that, it's not really fair for him to have to do that to be considered a bonjwa.
I still agree with HotBid though. Though at the same time, we need a poll to really determine how much "debate" is going on over whether or not Flash is a bonjwa. If it's just a small minority of nostalgic fans/Jaedong fans, then I don't think that matters a ton.
On May 30 2010 07:08 Ideas wrote:
game 2 I was fucking slamming my head against a wall when JD never backstabbed flash after he moved out. NO TURRETS. I guess JD didn't know that though and flash took a big gamble and it paid off really well.
Wasn't really a gamble. Without reinforcements/scourge, JD's pure mutas couldn't afford to fight Flash's Valks alone, never mind the MnM. If JD's mutas are tied up at Flash's base, he can just send his MnM across the map and leave the valks at home. Without the risk of mutas thinning their numbers, Flash's MnM could stim across the map and reach the 3rd before scourges/Lurkers could get where they need to be.
JD did what was probably sensible to do, which was try and buy time for scourge and lurkers to hold his bases. He just happened to screw up in both engagements (scourge flying past the valks and being sloppy with his mutas, and sending his Lurkers in without enough lings) and that cost him the game.
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United States47024 Posts
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On May 30 2010 07:04 Veetz wrote:
whats a bonjwa?
Picture is worth a 1000 words.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/NeverGG/hanamsl/29.jpg)
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I think it's hard for the older generation to accept Flash as a bonjwa. I feel like it's one of those "You know in my day.." situations where your grandfather overexaggerates the hell out of his accomplishments.
It's like fanboys overexaggerating the bonjwas' accomplishments and saying Flash's doesn't even come close because those fans still have the mentality that those bonjwas will and only will be the only bonjwas ever.
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Quoted for truth, such a baller.
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On May 30 2010 07:43 K3Nyy wrote:
I think it's hard for the older generation to accept Flash as a bonjwa. I feel like it's one of those "You know in my day.." situations where your grandfather overexaggerates the hell out of his accomplishments.
It's like fanboys overexaggerating the bonjwas' accomplishments and saying Flash's doesn't even come close because those fans still have the mentality that those bonjwas will and only will be the only bonjwas ever.
I tend to agree with this because nostalgia-vision is a really powerful thing. I'm pretty sure Flash is statistically stronger than any other bonjwa (I typed "any other bonjwa" without even thinking, Freudian slip I guess  ) with the exception of maybe oov. But at the same time, I haven't been following for too long so I never experienced Boxer/Oov/Nada/or Savior when they were running show so I can't fully judge.
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EPT
