EPTanything that beats your favorite player becomes "cheese". This is how it works on TL
[MSL] Grand Final - Page 148
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
anything that beats your favorite player becomes "cheese". This is how it works on TL | ||
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Puosu
7106 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:37 PanzerDragoon wrote: anything that beats your favorite player becomes "cheese". This is how it works on TL 14cc is as close to an economical cheese as you can get. | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:36 PanzerDragoon wrote: You should care about statistics because its an objective measure of just how fucking dominant Flash is. And Sea is over 60%, but where's that gotten him? Statistics are overrated. It's achieving results in crunch time that counts. Last time I checked, Flash has the same number of golds as the all washed up Bisu does. | ||
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iloahz
United States964 Posts
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TekKpriest
308 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:40 iloahz wrote: I refuse to call flash bonjwa. It's an insult to flash if his godlike play is downplayed to something as lowly as "bonjwa". Flash is dominating more than anyone ever before. Wrong, there were clearly more dominating players in the past. | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:41 SolaX wrote: Wrong, there were clearly more dominating players in the past. No there really weren't. There have been guys who dominated for longer stretches of time than flash has (thus far) and consequently have more titles but never ever has anyone dominated as hard as flash has the last year. Dual finals 2 seasons in a row and ~89% win rate in proleague is completly unprecedented. Completly. | ||
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Slow Motion
United States6960 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:40 iloahz wrote: I refuse to call flash bonjwa. It's an insult to flash if his godlike play is downplayed to something as lowly as "bonjwa". Flash is dominating more than anyone ever before. Yes, being compared to Boxer, oov, and NaDa is so degrading. None of these guys have ever won as many starleagues as Flash. | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:41 SolaX wrote: Wrong, there were clearly more dominating players in the past. Nah, I wouldn't say they were more dominant. Players like Oov and Mr. Ma back in the days faced great competition. I just don't think that players back then were as good as they are now. There really weren't other really really good players back in the days that could challenge them on a consistent basis. Oov and Savior were pretty much the clear cut favorite in EVERY game. What makes Flash's case different is that you can't legitimately say he's the clear cut favorite in EVERY game. Half the people thought Jaedong would win, just attesting to how good Jaedong is as well. The level of competition today is simply too great. Other players are absolutely amazing too. It's just that Flash is arguably the best of the best today. But that doesn't mean he's clear cut favorite over everyone. | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:41 SolaX wrote: Wrong, there were clearly more dominating players in the past. And can you name those players that reached 4 out of 4 finals? | ||
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Rewera
Poland354 Posts
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:40 Roffles wrote: And Sea is over 60%, but where's that gotten him? Statistics are overrated. It's achieving results in crunch time that counts. Last time I checked, Flash has the same number of golds as the all washed up Bisu does. Lmao he's been in the past 2 individual seasons hes been in the finals every time. I have no doubt he will be in the finals in the next two also. Statistics ARE winning. What other stats are there? Oh my god you busted out the "WINNING IN THE CLUTCH" argument that everyone always busts out against statistics in baseball, and now we are bringing it into Starcraft. In the clutch, didn't Flash just DESTROY Jaedong? Like, absolutely dominated him? "Clutch" is a nebulously defined term with no real quantifiable meaning, and its been shown in other sports that players perform to their career averages in "clutch" situations given a reasonable sample size. He's got a fucking 71% career win rate. Since start of this proleague season, he has an 81% win rate in Proleague and Starleagues. Savior, at his peak from 2005 to his destruction by Bisu, was winning 66% of the time. Incredible, but what Flash is doing right now, in an era where Starcraft players have never been better, is absolutely amazing. Stop trying to diminish the best player of all time. | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:48 Roffles wrote: Nah, I wouldn't say they were more dominant. Players like Oov and Mr. Ma back in the days faced great competition. I just don't think that players back then were as good as they are now. There really weren't other really really good players back in the days that could challenge them on a consistent basis. Oov and Savior were pretty much the clear cut favorite in EVERY game. What makes Flash's case different is that you can't legitimately say he's the clear cut favorite in EVERY game. Half the people thought Jaedong would win, just attesting to how good Jaedong is as well. The level of competition today is simply too great. Other players are absolutely amazing too. It's just that Flash is arguably the best of the best today. But that doesn't mean he's clear cut favorite over everyone. So your argument is... players today are better Flash has an absolutely insane win percentage against these better players therefore Flash isn't as dominant? Does not compute | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:49 Lebesgue wrote: And can you name those players that reached 4 out of 4 finals? Nada won 3 MSLs and a OSL in the span of 10 months. He won the OSL in the same season he got a MSL gold. If that is not godlike, I dont know what is. Oh, and he was playing 2 minor tourneys that were the equivalent of GOM during that period, and guess what, he got golds in them too. That's why this man is still the GOAT. + he has 27 entries on his TLPD medal list. Oov won 4 SLs back to back, he never got a dual final though, but he won 4 SLs in one year. Its true that their winrates arent as impressive as Flash's, but they took the titles home, and more titles home in BoX's vs the best of the best. | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:39 Puosu wrote: 14cc is as close to an economical cheese as you can get. so is 3 hatch before pool =) | ||
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Slow Motion
United States6960 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:57 samachking wrote: Nada won 3 MSLs and a OSL in the span of 10 months. He won the OSL in the same season he got a MSL gold. If that is not godlike, I dont know what is. Oh, and he was playing 2 minor tourneys that were the equivalent of GOM during that period, and guess what, he got golds in them too. That's why this man is still the GOAT. + he has 27 entries on his TLPD medal list. Oov won 4 SLs back to back, he never got a dual final though, but he won 4 SLs in one year. Its true that their winrates arent as impressive as Flash's, but they took the titles home, and more titles home in BoX's vs the best of the best. Not to mention of the incredible circumstances under which NaDa won his golden mouse. That OSL run will always be the greatest and most emotional moment in progaming for me. All you have to do is know a little of NaDa's story to understand that he is the greatest champion in Starcraft history. Of course none of this is to detract from Flash's accomplishments today but lets not get too over the top with the praise. | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:51 PanzerDragoon wrote: So your argument is... players today are better Flash has an absolutely insane win percentage against these better players therefore Flash isn't as dominant? Does not compute My argument is: Flash isn't the clear cut favorite in every single game. I've stated this explicitly NUMEROUS times. I don't get why you can't grasp this concept. | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:49 PanzerDragoon wrote: Lmao he's been in the past 2 individual seasons hes been in the finals every time. I have no doubt he will be in the finals in the next two also. Statistics ARE winning. What other stats are there? Oh my god you busted out the "WINNING IN THE CLUTCH" argument that everyone always busts out against statistics in baseball, and now we are bringing it into Starcraft. In the clutch, didn't Flash just DESTROY Jaedong? Like, absolutely dominated him? "Clutch" is a nebulously defined term with no real quantifiable meaning, and its been shown in other sports that players perform to their career averages in "clutch" situations given a reasonable sample size. He's got a fucking 71% career win rate. Since start of this proleague season, he has an 81% win rate in Proleague and Starleagues. Savior, at his peak from 2005 to his destruction by Bisu, was winning 66% of the time. Incredible, but what Flash is doing right now, in an era where Starcraft players have never been better, is absolutely amazing. Stop trying to diminish the best player of all time. You'd think the best player of all time would have made more than 5 finals. You'd think the best player of all time would have more titles than Bisu, the old washed up Protoss champ. You'd think the best player of all time would have more than measly 60% win rate in finals. He's good. But until he's got more titles and things under his belt, he's not the best player of all time. What's the use of having a great win rate when you don't have the titles? When Flash goes something like 6-0 and tops Oov's 5-0 winrate in Grand Finals, or reaches something like 6 titles like Nada has, then I'll crown him as the best player of all time. | ||
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AppleTart
United States1261 Posts
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InTheFade
United States1721 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:15 lone_hydra wrote: 14 cc is cheese. If lone_hydra doesn't like it, then it's not a legitmate strategy. ![[image loading]](http://notallbits.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/the_more_you_know2.jpg) | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
You'll know it when you see it, and Flash isn't it... yet. | ||
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