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Piste
6184 Posts
On May 30 2010 03:38 r33k wrote: Someone with 4+ golds under his belt with no rivals during his peak. And Flash doesn't satisfy either of these conditions. Especially because 14cc is as cheesy as 8rax. Well Flash is beyond bonjwa-status. He is the god of brood war. The best player ever existed. | ||
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Fumi
529 Posts
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Saturnize
United States2473 Posts
On May 30 2010 03:38 r33k wrote: Someone with 4+ golds under his belt with no rivals during his peak. And Flash doesn't satisfy either of these conditions. Especially because 14cc is as cheesy as 8rax. how is 14cc cheese? | ||
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zenMaster
Canada761 Posts
Economic cheese. | ||
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Saturnize
United States2473 Posts
ummm ok... | ||
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poptartazn
United States84 Posts
And those who think the title "Bonjwa" requires 17 Starleague golds, 97% overall winrate, diamond mouse winner, etc.etc. 본좌 refers to one who is significantly better than others, where all who vs him is considered the underdog, or "최고수, 지존", etc. (Number 1 gosu, expert, etc.) As bad as it is to throw around the term, it's not right to deny one who deserves the title, either. (And to the general foreigners who think "Bonjwa" DOES require 9 starleague golds in a row.. i'm pretty sure when korean commentators already refer to jaedong and flash as bonjwas, they have at least a slightly greater understanding of the progame scene that you do) | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On May 30 2010 03:38 r33k wrote: Someone with 4+ golds under his belt with no rivals during his peak. And Flash doesn't satisfy either of these conditions. Especially because 14cc is as cheesy as 8rax. You are tailoring the definition of a bonjwa to your own liking: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Bonjwa The whole bonjwa is a pretty shit term in the first place tbh - heck, no one called Boxer bonjwa until after Savior made his entrance to the scene. Up until that point he was simply just "The Emperor". Bonjwa is imho a term to be reserved for the sell-out and he can keep that and his nifty watch for all eternity as long as he stays away from a PC. | ||
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lone_hydra
Canada1460 Posts
Doesn't sound like you are convinced. 14 cc is cheese. Anyone who understands anything about competitive Starcraft knows this. It is a huge risk and if scouted early, it pretty much is gg but if it is pulled off, it usually puts you in a huge economic lead that a pro can easily use for a free win. | ||
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okum
France5779 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:19 okum wrote: It was a cheese in game 1, but in games 2 & 3 Flash scouted before starting his CC. this man speaks the truth | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:15 lone_hydra wrote: Doesn't sound like you are convinced. 14 cc is cheese. Anyone who understands anything about competitive Starcraft knows this. It is a huge risk and if scouted early, it pretty much is gg but if it is pulled off, it usually puts you in a huge economic lead that a pro can easily use for a free win. It's not a huge risk if you can wall off and you don't start the CC till you're sure your opponent can't respond. | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:15 lone_hydra wrote: Doesn't sound like you are convinced. 14 cc is cheese. Anyone who understands anything about competitive Starcraft knows this. It is a huge risk and if scouted early, it pretty much is gg but if it is pulled off, it usually puts you in a huge economic lead that a pro can easily use for a free win. It was pointed out many many times that Flash did go 14CC only after scouting in games 2 and 3. If Jaedong 9 pooled he would have just walled in. Moreover, Jaedong went 3 hatch without pool 2 times in Nate final and game 2 and that was fine? Noone was mad about it when Jaedong pulled it out. But again I will repeat, Flash scouted before placing CC in games 2 and 3. How is this cheese? | ||
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EntertainMe
864 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:15 lone_hydra wrote: Doesn't sound like you are convinced. 14 cc is cheese. Anyone who understands anything about competitive Starcraft knows this. It is a huge risk and if scouted early, it pretty much is gg but if it is pulled off, it usually puts you in a huge economic lead that a pro can easily use for a free win. There is a clear distinction between build fight and cheese. 14 cc is not cheese, just an advantage. Heck, going by your definition, half the build is zvz is considered cheese. Simply not true. Edit: Also one of the most common TvT opening, FE, is cheese based on your definition. Anyone who understands ANYTHING about competitive Starcraft should know better. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:22 EntertainMe wrote: There is a clear distinction between build fight and cheese. 14 cc is not cheese, just an advantage. Heck, going by your definition, half the build is zvz is considered cheese. Simply not true. Edit: Also one of the most common TvT opening, FE, is cheese based on your definition. Anyone who understands ANYTHING about competitive Starcraft should know better. yep, and that is not how "cheese" is defined by korean progamers and commentators. i mean you can start coming up with your own definitions but it's just not correct. risk isn't cheese. 14 command center is considered a gamble more or less, but not "cheese." | ||
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HeadhunteR
Argentina1258 Posts
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okum
France5779 Posts
The real question is why the discussion about the definition of cheese had to come up here at all. | ||
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Boundz(DarKo)
5311 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On May 30 2010 04:28 okum wrote: While traditionally cheese is some risky offensive strategy, it's not that much of a stretch to call 14 CC / 12 nexus / triple hatchery cheese (or "economic cheese"). The real question is why the discussion about the definition of cheese had to come up here at all. those economic gambles, not cheese. i guess if flash "cheesed" then jaedong must have "cheesed" too with his three hatch no pool build. it's just stupid to start calling everything with a bit of risk "cheese." double nexus PvT is cheese? rax CC TvP is cheese? | ||
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FastEddieV
United States614 Posts
Disappointing to see Jaedong get rolled so hard by Flash but what are you going to do? I feel kind of bad for Jaedong though with a whole team relying on him for the past couple of seasons to carry them in proleague as well as hammering through all the individual leagues. | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On May 30 2010 03:41 Roffles wrote: And I care about statistics because? To me, ever since Mr. Ma came around, there hasn't been a legitimate "bonjwa". To me, there's no player that is unquestionably hands down THE best player in the world. I haven't had that feeling since Savior, when he would just completely annihilate ANYONE he played. I just don't get the same feeling with Flash. There are still a few players that can challenge Flash at a reasonable level these days (Like Jaedong, Effort, etc). There's just no clear cut absolutely dominant player today. You should care about statistics because its an objective measure of just how fucking dominant Flash is. | ||
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