Hmm, [Jaedong] Oz has been really weak this WL, it might not have been the best choice to play their strongest-performing player (by one win) first, where the other coach can snipe him. I predict WeMade will take the match.
Lomo won't stand much of a chance against mind unless if he cheeses.... though maybe all this time he has NOT playing televized matches has been used to work on his vT.
Maybe oz is desperate to have Jaedong avoid playing on neo moon glaive? Mind's win against Hiya was so important. It basically decided which team will win imo.
Gas going now for Lomo--definitely mech play. Shine going for the optimal 3hatch opener vs. mech after his overlord sees the nat wall-off (or maybe he was just planning on doing it anyways).
On March 10 2010 13:36 MountainDewJunkie wrote: What's more hilarious: a) That build b) that it was scouted c) the fact that it worked
any quick proxy factory is incredibly strong on maps without ramps(except ones where you the base entrance is close to the cc and it's easy to wall)
you just can win with 2 vultures vs their 5, unless you get a bunker up/walled in and got tank.
You mean you didn't find any of that hilarious? Any game with TvT cheese is always great.
cheese in tvt is like standard play i don't get what's so funny about this particular cheese. i swear like every game(more like 40% i'm exaggerating) is a 2port wraith, a scv cutting 2fact, or something just really strange and all in.
i don't really like it but it beats the boring map control battle that goes on in the midgame.
Unless this turns into some sweet-ass wraith-valkyrie build, I don't see how this will fair well vs 3-hatch muta. Though Shine is unloved, you can't discount his muta control.
lurkers out for shine - a lot of them, ~10 lomo moving out a bit with mnm/5 tanks 2 vessels I don't think it's enough compared to the hydralurk mass...
On March 10 2010 13:58 koreasilver wrote: Shine has a laaaaaaaaate hive though. Gives Lomo hope.
the fact that teh game is going to hive tech should give lomo alot of hope. Shine is seriously atrocious with all hive tech units, so Lomo has more than a fair shot if he can survive the very near future, ie the incoming 15 lurks+hydras
Unit composition wise Lomo wrecks Shine. He just needs to press his advantage as much as he can before any hive units come out even though Shine sucks at hive play.
ALOT OF LINGS for shine. consume will be out soon though, so this push will almost certainly be pushed back. it is. Lomo loses 2 of his 6 tanks, saves the rest
5 fact vults for lomo. interesting cause Shine's multi-task and control is too shitty to do anything other than a-move cows and lings. drop in the main kills most of the depots.
Lomo clears out the main doom drop finally, but Shine forces 8.5 to lift with an Ultra. Shine's now going for 7.5! Can Lomo hold this? Buffer lag and I see irradiate on lurkers.
what the hell happened this game? lomo's army just absolutely dissappeared...i thought he was in good shape until like 30 seconds ago when i realized he didn't have anything
Armory is sniped by a single Ultralisk while an SCV attempted to repair it and while the Ultra was being hit by 6 vultures and a tank. Zerglings still doing damage to the supply line.
so who next for oz? i think it can only be killer, as they'll probably want to save jaedong and there's no way they're gonna send one of their toss against shine
On March 10 2010 14:15 skronch wrote: so who next for oz? i think it can only be killer, as they'll probably want to save jaedong and there's no way they're gonna send one of their toss against shine
Killer, I'd say as well. It's not like they have anybody else that's good vZ other than Kira and Dong. And Dong has been... :/ meh
On March 10 2010 14:27 QuothTheRaven wrote: Violet adding 2 more gateways now, total of 4. Has an AI pylon in his nat and is getting a shield battery too!
On March 10 2010 14:50 FireGuyX wrote: poor game sense by Baby, trying to sunken break when four sunkens are up.
not like he really had a choice. he realized that if he didn't go in he was screwed anyways as he was way behind after cutting so many scvs. its not poor game sense.
I'm think that push was destroyed by just sunkens, so firebats would not have made a difference. This game wasn't baby's fault - he was just handed a poor strategy.
Jaedong reacted calmly while Baby seemed to rush the attack. Sure it's a timing attack but it seemed like Baby was not controlling his units that well.
I do think roro should have the advantage - but it's now up to him to give it away/JD to take it back JD starts his spire behind his main mineral line he takes his nat gas
roro definitely missing out on a good amount of gas because of his spire placement his drones deviate from a straight path very often as they mine from his main gas
A third hatch going up, something involving a lot of zerglings is going to happen. Jaedong pretty much trading lings with Roro, softening up his ground force sufficiently so that if his mutas pull Roro's away he can run in with lings and wreck everything.
roro definitely letting his muta advantage slip away letting JD mass up on 2 gas for so long (and soon 3!) Roro totally in the dark as to JD"s 3rd base
Roro taking 6 o'clock and attacking 12 simultaneously. Huge muta battle but it will be hard for Jeadong to win with his upgrade deficit. Scourge arrive and drive Roro off!
On March 10 2010 15:22 gunsharp wrote: Can someone who understands ZvZ explain how Jaedong somehow ended up with 3x the mutas??
I can actually tell you. If you notice Jaedong got a third hatchery by his main so he had 1 more hatch then roro the whole game. He also got his natural gas earlier, and got a third up and running earlier as well. Since he also had again 4 hatcheries to roro's 1 he was able to make more units faster .
On March 10 2010 15:22 gunsharp wrote: Can someone who understands ZvZ explain how Jaedong somehow ended up with 3x the mutas??
Roro sucks. that or he had bad saturation. or maybe jaedong just hacks. i dont think he actually had that many more mutas, just better upgrades and control, ie he focused better,
On March 10 2010 15:22 gunsharp wrote: Can someone who understands ZvZ explain how Jaedong somehow ended up with 3x the mutas??
I can actually tell you. If you notice Jaedong got a third hatchery by his main so he had 1 more hatch then roro the whole game. He also got his natural gas earlier, and got a third up and running earlier as well. Since he also had again 4 hatcheries to roro's 1 he was able to make more units faster .
He didn't get his natural gas earlier, actually got it at the same time as RorO, so he wasn't able to exceed RorO's muta count. He actually stopped mining gas after the early break, so he was far behind on gas. The fourth hat I think was critical though.
On March 10 2010 15:24 Weasel- wrote: Wow RorO didn't even play badly, Jaedong just played that good. One of the most impressive ZvZ performances I've seen.
Roro made some really terrible decisions throughout that game.
I didn't see the whole game, but did Roro have many drones at his 2nd base? Cause I know JD was stopping his 3rd pretty well close to the end... but he kept trying to run lings into the main before that.
On March 10 2010 15:22 gunsharp wrote: Can someone who understands ZvZ explain how Jaedong somehow ended up with 3x the mutas??
His third being up longer, and his killing of Roro's drones at the third and nat (I think he killed them at the nat, they weren't there when it the stream was playing again) let him get ahead since he had basically an unharassed economy.
At the end it seemed like he caught Roro while his units were split. Not sure, a bit laggy at the end there.
edit: I thought Roro also had a third hatchery at his main, but maybe I'm wrong? Then that allowed JD to catch up, and the fourth hatchery (third gas) let him get ahead.
On March 10 2010 15:22 gunsharp wrote: Can someone who understands ZvZ explain how Jaedong somehow ended up with 3x the mutas??
I can actually tell you. If you notice Jaedong got a third hatchery by his main so he had 1 more hatch then roro the whole game. He also got his natural gas earlier, and got a third up and running earlier as well. Since he also had again 4 hatcheries to roro's 1 he was able to make more units faster .
Uh what, how does the fourth hatchery help, mutas are limited by gas, not by larva ?_?
On March 10 2010 15:22 gunsharp wrote: Can someone who understands ZvZ explain how Jaedong somehow ended up with 3x the mutas??
Roro sucks. that or he had bad saturation. or maybe jaedong just hacks. i dont think he actually had that many more mutas, just better upgrades and control, ie he focused better,
Actually, Roro was ahead on upgrades pretty much. If the game had continued a bit more JD would've caught up, but Roro was ahead at that moment.
On March 10 2010 15:22 gunsharp wrote: Can someone who understands ZvZ explain how Jaedong somehow ended up with 3x the mutas??
I can actually tell you. If you notice Jaedong got a third hatchery by his main so he had 1 more hatch then roro the whole game. He also got his natural gas earlier, and got a third up and running earlier as well. Since he also had again 4 hatcheries to roro's 1 he was able to make more units faster .
No, Jaedong had less mutas for most of that game. I think he had more at the end because he kept harassing Roro's drones and after a while he couldn't keep up muta production while replacing drones with only 2 hatch. Also while Roro had more he split them up on a couple of occassions letting Jaedong's full muta force snipe a few here and there.
On March 10 2010 15:22 gunsharp wrote: Can someone who understands ZvZ explain how Jaedong somehow ended up with 3x the mutas??
I can actually tell you. If you notice Jaedong got a third hatchery by his main so he had 1 more hatch then roro the whole game. He also got his natural gas earlier, and got a third up and running earlier as well. Since he also had again 4 hatcheries to roro's 1 he was able to make more units faster .
Uh what, how does the fourth hatchery help, mutas are limited by gas, not by larva ?_?
It helped him catch up in muta count since he was mining gas long before his spire finally finished.
JD's victory was definitely the result of Drone sniping at Roro's nat and third. Of that I'm pretty certain. JD was able to get such a big gas advantage from that...
Then sniping some of Roro's stray Mutas, that just won him the game.
On March 10 2010 15:24 Weasel- wrote: Wow RorO didn't even play badly, Jaedong just played that good. One of the most impressive ZvZ performances I've seen.
Roro made some really terrible decisions throughout that game.
On March 10 2010 15:22 gunsharp wrote: Can someone who understands ZvZ explain how Jaedong somehow ended up with 3x the mutas??
Roro sucks. that or he had bad saturation. or maybe jaedong just hacks. i dont think he actually had that many more mutas, just better upgrades and control, ie he focused better,
Roro's complacency + Jaedong's brilliance. Jaedong did what he does best, he made all the right decisions to try and scrape back his massive disadvantage to level ground, starting from the decision to bite his lip and spore up, to a risky hidden expo at 12, which he kept Roro from finding by constant harassment. When Roro hit +2 Jaedong could not have fought at a better place on the map. All in all the entire game is absolute magic, eventually he managed to out-gas his opponent
Roro missed several key timings and Jaedong used each of his 'lives' to its full advantage. It's quite preposterous Roro lost, thats one of the most uncanny comebacks I've ever seen.
On March 10 2010 15:22 gunsharp wrote: Can someone who understands ZvZ explain how Jaedong somehow ended up with 3x the mutas??
I can actually tell you. If you notice Jaedong got a third hatchery by his main so he had 1 more hatch then roro the whole game. He also got his natural gas earlier, and got a third up and running earlier as well. Since he also had again 4 hatcheries to roro's 1 he was able to make more units faster .
Uh what, how does the fourth hatchery help, mutas are limited by gas, not by larva ?_?
It helped him catch up in muta count since he was mining gas long before his spire finally finished.
Unless he had 1000-2000 gas stockpiled, there's no way the third hatch would've made up for Roro's way earlier spire. You mine gas long before your spire is done in every ZvZ, but the stockpile runs out pretty quickly just because you get larva faster than you get gas.
Not to mention that Jaedong already had mutas out at that point.
On March 10 2010 15:24 Weasel- wrote: Wow RorO didn't even play badly, Jaedong just played that good. One of the most impressive ZvZ performances I've seen.
Roro made some really terrible decisions throughout that game.
Go on.
Not scouting better with lings, letting jd get 3rd while even though he had more mutas, not having scourge in the first muta battle at jd's 3rd (which he probably could have won with a few scourge and better micro), when he had jd's mutas in retreat and split not attacking 3rd with combined mutas, instead splitting his own mutas
edit: not taking anything away from jd's brilliance in that game of course. 99% of zergs would have died to roro anyways in that position
I think that he didn't scout 12 partly do to JD running his lings everything, but you're right in that he should've kept tabs since he had map control. For the scourge thing, I don't see any zerg micro their mutas against scourge when they have giant muta fights for some reason.
jeadong had less muta.that why he was running the whole time. roro splitting up his muta cost him the game. jeadong with his better micro raped roro's splinted force divide and conquer.
On March 10 2010 15:41 Avidkeystamper wrote: I think that he didn't scout 12 partly do to JD running his lings everything, but you're right in that he should've kept tabs since he had map control. For the scourge thing, I don't see any zerg micro their mutas against scourge when they have giant muta fights for some reason.
Patrol microing with 2 or 3 groups at the same time is pretty hard.
I don't think he expected JD to take 12 since he also saw JD try to take bott right. Then, JD takes 12 once Roro is distracted with the drone at bott right.
His mutas were also distracted with JD's ling movements too.
On March 10 2010 15:45 Harem wrote: I don't think he expected JD to take 12 since he also saw JD try to take bott right. Then, JD takes 12 once Roro is distracted with the drone at bott right.
His mutas were also distracted with JD's ling movements too.
This is a good point. I do think that JD never intended to take that expo though, but used it more as a mind game. Roro should have sensed something and scouted 12 still because that bottom expo would be almost impossible for JD to defend.
On March 10 2010 15:24 Weasel- wrote: Wow RorO didn't even play badly, Jaedong just played that good. One of the most impressive ZvZ performances I've seen.
Roro made some really terrible decisions throughout that game.
Go on.
Not scouting better with lings, letting jd get 3rd while even though he had more mutas, not having scourge in the first muta battle at jd's 3rd (which he probably could have won with a few scourge and better micro), when he had jd's mutas in retreat and split not attacking 3rd with combined mutas, instead splitting his own mutas
edit: not taking anything away from jd's brilliance in that game of course. 99% of zergs would have died to roro anyways in that position
Well, JD was doing an amazing job distracting Roro with lings while getting his 3rd up. Roro did go for the third when JD retreated and split his mutas (not RIGHT after, but not so long after if I remember correctly, anyways I'll prolly watch that game again), but JD regrouped and got scourges a bit before Roro (he did get some scourges for that battle over JD's third) which gave him the advantage. So Roro didnt do any "terrible" decisions, yes he could have played better, but JD is just too good.
On March 10 2010 15:45 Harem wrote: I don't think he expected JD to take 12 since he also saw JD try to take bott right. Then, JD takes 12 once Roro is distracted with the drone at bott right.
His mutas were also distracted with JD's ling movements too.
This. I thought it was absolutely brilliant - twice JD sent a drone to bottom right and let Roro kill it so Roro thought he was successfully denying JD a third base.
flash just murdered STX's top line of Shuttle Kal Calm, with an epic game vs Kal. That thread is insane, go check out how many people have adopted the new religion called FLASH.
On March 10 2010 16:30 Wings wrote: lol just came from the KTvsSTX thread, looks like JD did his duty and killed some scrubs here... Shine, Roro, Baby... while in KTvsSTXland...
flash just murdered STX's top line of Shuttle Kal Calm, with an epic game vs Kal. That thread is insane, go check out how many people have adopted the new religion called FLASH.
Flash can be a religion when he stops losing to jaedong kk
On March 10 2010 16:30 Wings wrote: lol just came from the KTvsSTX thread, looks like JD did his duty and killed some scrubs here... Shine, Roro, Baby... while in KTvsSTXland...
flash just murdered STX's top line of Shuttle Kal Calm, with an epic game vs Kal. That thread is insane, go check out how many people have adopted the new religion called FLASH.
On March 10 2010 16:30 Wings wrote: lol just came from the KTvsSTX thread, looks like JD did his duty and killed some scrubs here... Shine, Roro, Baby... while in KTvsSTXland...
flash just murdered STX's top line of Shuttle Kal Calm, with an epic game vs Kal. That thread is insane, go check out how many people have adopted the new religion called FLASH.
Flash can be a religion when he stops losing to jaedong kk
God can never lose to Satan. He merely tests our faith.
On March 10 2010 16:30 Wings wrote: lol just came from the KTvsSTX thread, looks like JD did his duty and killed some scrubs here... Shine, Roro, Baby... while in KTvsSTXland...
flash just murdered STX's top line of Shuttle Kal Calm, with an epic game vs Kal. That thread is insane, go check out how many people have adopted the new religion called FLASH.
Flash can be a religion when he stops losing to jaedong kk
Man no one can stop Jaedong if Flash can't. Good thing Jaedong won the OSL last season and -- ahaha I'm just joshing with you they'll meet up again sometime.
On March 10 2010 16:30 Wings wrote: lol just came from the KTvsSTX thread, looks like JD did his duty and killed some scrubs here... Shine, Roro, Baby... while in KTvsSTXland...
flash just murdered STX's top line of Shuttle Kal Calm, with an epic game vs Kal. That thread is insane, go check out how many people have adopted the new religion called FLASH.
Flash can be a religion when he stops losing to jaedong kk
God can never lose to Satan. He merely tests our faith.
On March 10 2010 16:30 Wings wrote: lol just came from the KTvsSTX thread, looks like JD did his duty and killed some scrubs here... Shine, Roro, Baby... while in KTvsSTXland...
flash just murdered STX's top line of Shuttle Kal Calm, with an epic game vs Kal. That thread is insane, go check out how many people have adopted the new religion called FLASH.
you know I love flash, I think he's great but your kind of post is such retarded disgusting dumb fanboyism i think im gonna vomit. GTFO THIS THREAD, TO ADMIRE FLASH, POST IN THE KT THREAD
On March 10 2010 15:22 gunsharp wrote: Can someone who understands ZvZ explain how Jaedong somehow ended up with 3x the mutas??
Jaedong had a far superior economy the entire game.
Another hatchery + more drones = more / faster muta production.
Jaedong was also able to snipe a bunch of drones and criple roro's mineral count.
Roro got caught in a bad position in the last battle, but up to that point, Jaedong's muta production was always edging up more and more.
Even when Jaedong was pulling his muta out of battle, he wasn't incurring that much damage with his +2 armor upgrade. Plus if you look at his naturals / expoes, by the end he was pumping out a lot more mutas than Roro was.
Not gonna lie. I haven't watched an SC VOD in a while, not because SC2 is just THAT captivating (It is) but because JD has been slipping while flash is becoming more and more and more unreachable. Even with JD's 3kill here he had to struggle his way past roro, while flash breezed through STX, including calm, without batting an eyelash. (Okay, maybe he twitched in his set against calm).
On March 11 2010 13:48 Warrior Madness wrote: Not gonna lie. I haven't watched an SC VOD in a while, not because SC2 is just THAT captivating (It is) but because JD has been slipping while flash is becoming more and more and more unreachable. Even with JD's 3kill here he had to struggle his way past roro, while flash breezed through STX, including calm, without batting an eyelash. (Okay, maybe he twitched in his set against calm).
Comparing TvZ to ZvZ is a pretty unfair comparison.
Flash perfectly countered and all-in against Calm. JD fought back from a disadvantage. Big difference (and don't say Calm is better... his ZvT is no better, if not worse, than Roros ZvZ).
On March 11 2010 13:48 Warrior Madness wrote: Not gonna lie. I haven't watched an SC VOD in a while, not because SC2 is just THAT captivating (It is) but because JD has been slipping while flash is becoming more and more and more unreachable. Even with JD's 3kill here he had to struggle his way past roro, while flash breezed through STX, including calm, without batting an eyelash. (Okay, maybe he twitched in his set against calm).
Flash is not unreachable, Jaedong can go head to head with him, did you miss their PL match and the MSL finals?
Its true that vs the average opponent and overall Flash is stronger and a lot more solid. But JD has not lost it except in ZvZ where has been making a lot of mistakes recently, his ZvP is looking as strong as ever, and his ZvT is rock solid. People quickly forget that Flash was invincible vs this stuff for the last 2 years, he never lost vs non S-Class vTers, and every now and then he would drop to a A-class, JD was never as solid overall, but when the stakes are high and the pressure is on, he always pulls his weight. Thats why he has 5 golds.
On March 11 2010 13:48 Warrior Madness wrote: Not gonna lie. I haven't watched an SC VOD in a while, not because SC2 is just THAT captivating (It is) but because JD has been slipping while flash is becoming more and more and more unreachable. Even with JD's 3kill here he had to struggle his way past roro, while flash breezed through STX, including calm, without batting an eyelash. (Okay, maybe he twitched in his set against calm).
Of course he had to struggle against roro. Unlike every other matchup early game disadvantages (like BO) result to pretty much insta-loss. Compare it to like TvT where it's pretty easy to turn the game around.
That's why ZvZ comebacks are more impressive than all others. That's why there was a JvZ, 80% winrate in such an unstable matchup - that was pretty ridicilous.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/keit/plNamdaemun.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/7.jpg)
vs. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/11.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/146.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2711/4270138498_55d0c9b2b1_o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/205.jpg)
Mind < [Fighting Spirit > ![[image loading]](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/4298233007_a8f48c0585_o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4028/4298241699_df9ec0ba14_o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2780/4270138554_182b8f6714_o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/4270138564_e2f4db281d_o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4270138486_fa49e5b17a_o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/208.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/623.jpg)
Shine < Roadrunner > ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/211.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/575.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/622.jpg)
