Why doesn't he splash the DTs by shooting his own buildings? Would be the first thing to come to mind. The 70 dmg doesn't really matter when DT does the same in one second, rather get it killed.
On February 10 2010 18:54 thunk wrote: El Nino on twilight looks really good.
after 6-0'ing his prelim group i think it's safe to say mvp has gone over his 'terrible as fuck' player stage, but having to playing kal in your first major league game...... =[
Kal has to be carefull here. He lost alot of troops with the recalls and didn't use the time to take extra bases. Supply of the terran is creeping up awfully close now.
Sometimes I think recalls lose more games for protoss then they win =[=p
On February 10 2010 19:11 meegrean wrote: this is another example of a terran getting recalled to death
Pretty much, but Kal had a good lead, and some of his recalls weren't so great (one where mines destroyed alot of units), but he could spare the units I suppose
this is more of an example of early dt drop giving kal an edge, and him keeping that edge through great play (minus a bad recall and a couple of so-so ones) through the entire match.
On February 10 2010 19:21 nozaro33 wrote: Kal didn't even try stopping it?
Didnt have to. MVP committed 6 scvs, a bunker, marines, and aavulture for the rush so kal is still ahead despite nexus going down. it's called 12 nex imba.
Lazz, could you please explain a little bit more deeply?
Is Kal that far ahead? His tech is slower and MVP got his expansion up faster, shouldn't MVP be in the lead economically within a couple of minutes, all else being equal?
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
terran loses tons of mining time from his scvs and protoss gets a higher worker count
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
protoss
I think the behind-if-bunker-rush holds true if you bring like 12 SCVs and keep them there the whole time, but here MVP brought only 6 and sent 4 back home before the nex had even died. Kal needs to get range finished before he can put his expansion down, and even after that MVP has 6 mines between their bases and will have siege and tank in time. I really don't believe that he was ahead after that.
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
terran loses tons of mining time from his scvs and protoss gets a higher worker count
I definitely would trade being momentarily 3-4 workers behind in order to get a way earlier CC, free scouting information, complete map control, safety against cheesy drop play, your opponent having no way to scout you, and 6 mines in front of their natural. You wouldn't? Do you skip the comsat stations in TvZ if you expect mutas because 3 SCVs > scouting?
not that I know enough to judge who comes out ahead in those sorts of scenarios but those are the things working against the terran that you are not accounting for
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
the lead from 12 nex getting bunker rushed isnt anything huge. probably something like a couple extra probes. plus when obs come out you have huge map control, terran is pretty muchforced to go defensive with siege mode and turrets, which means toss is free to do what he likes without having to worry about any cheesey early game all-ins like 2 fac which they usually have to worry about when taking their expo.
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
the lead from 12 nex getting bunker rushed isnt anything huge. probably something like a couple extra probes. plus when obs come out you have huge map control, terran is pretty muchforced to go defensive with siege mode and turrets, which means toss is free to do what he likes without having to worry about any cheesey early game all-ins like 2 fac which they usually have to worry about when taking their expo.
In other words, after-I-do-2-gate-range-nex-robo-obs I have map control. Well nice, but normally P has map control from the start, here he gets it way later. And this means he's ahead? OK
On February 10 2010 19:48 Shikyo wrote: I definitely would trade being momentarily 3-4 workers behind in order to get a way earlier CC, free scouting information, complete map control, safety against cheesy drop play, your opponent having no way to scout you, and 6 mines in front of their natural. You wouldn't? Do you skip the comsat stations in TvZ if you expect mutas because 3 SCVs > scouting?
like I said I have no idea, was just trying to answer your question. I do think you are underestimating how much money pulling 6 scvs for that long translates to.
It must be reiterated that this opening is pretty sweet. Flash has two OSL wins I just realized, so he'll be playing for the Golden Mouse (assuming he makes it to the finals.)
On February 10 2010 19:48 Shikyo wrote: I definitely would trade being momentarily 3-4 workers behind in order to get a way earlier CC, free scouting information, complete map control, safety against cheesy drop play, your opponent having no way to scout you, and 6 mines in front of their natural. You wouldn't? Do you skip the comsat stations in TvZ if you expect mutas because 3 SCVs > scouting?
like I said I have no idea, was just trying to answer your question. I do think you are underestimating how much money pulling 6 scvs for that long translates to.
I think so too, not to mention the 100 mins spent on the bunker and the three or four extra probes Kal got out of the second nex. I also don't think Kal waited for his range to kick in before dismantling the bunker so he got his second nex down again pretty quickly.
On February 10 2010 19:48 Shikyo wrote: I definitely would trade being momentarily 3-4 workers behind in order to get a way earlier CC, free scouting information, complete map control, safety against cheesy drop play, your opponent having no way to scout you, and 6 mines in front of their natural. You wouldn't? Do you skip the comsat stations in TvZ if you expect mutas because 3 SCVs > scouting?
like I said I have no idea, was just trying to answer your question. I do think you are underestimating how much money pulling 6 scvs for that long translates to.
Don't think so, since you will be making SCVs the whole time and will get a CC up early, as well as the mine upgrade and a second vulture just in time. You're not trying to build up money in the bank. Definitely don't mind pulling 6 SCVs off minerals in order to force P to do exactly one kind of a build to have any chance, in addition to mining up the front of their natural in any other map, delaying their third base greatly, too. Oh not to mention the fact that you actually are still going to be mining gas, which is the resource that matters for tank count, not minerals.
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
the lead from 12 nex getting bunker rushed isnt anything huge. probably something like a couple extra probes. plus when obs come out you have huge map control, terran is pretty muchforced to go defensive with siege mode and turrets, which means toss is free to do what he likes without having to worry about any cheesey early game all-ins like 2 fac which they usually have to worry about when taking their expo.
In other words, after-I-do-2-gate-range-nex-robo-obs I have map control. Well nice, but normally P has map control from the start, here he gets it way later. And this means he's ahead? OK
let me put it this way, if i toss go 2 gate robotics observer like you said, and my opponent goes siege expand, the toss is behind. the price i pay for the map control(robotics) is bad economy( because my nex is delayed. after bunker rush i dont have to decide between economy (fast nex) or map control(fast robo), i get both!
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
the lead from 12 nex getting bunker rushed isnt anything huge. probably something like a couple extra probes. plus when obs come out you have huge map control, terran is pretty muchforced to go defensive with siege mode and turrets, which means toss is free to do what he likes without having to worry about any cheesey early game all-ins like 2 fac which they usually have to worry about when taking their expo.
In other words, after-I-do-2-gate-range-nex-robo-obs I have map control. Well nice, but normally P has map control from the start, here he gets it way later. And this means he's ahead? OK
let me put it this way, if i toss go 2 gate robotics observer like you said, and my opponent goes siege expand, the toss is behind. the price i pay for the map control(robotics) is bad economy( because my nex is delayed. after bunker rush i dont have to decide between economy (fast nex) or map control(fast robo), i get both!
Huh? You wouldn't be going 2 gate observer, you'd be going 2 gate range nex observer. What are you talking about?
I forget the exact words but in that terrible protoss joke blog someone like micronesia said "speedling, deny scout, mass hydra, 1a2a3a4a, win" so far type-b is doing just right according to that list!
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
the lead from 12 nex getting bunker rushed isnt anything huge. probably something like a couple extra probes. plus when obs come out you have huge map control, terran is pretty muchforced to go defensive with siege mode and turrets, which means toss is free to do what he likes without having to worry about any cheesey early game all-ins like 2 fac which they usually have to worry about when taking their expo.
In other words, after-I-do-2-gate-range-nex-robo-obs I have map control. Well nice, but normally P has map control from the start, here he gets it way later. And this means he's ahead? OK
let me put it this way, if i toss go 2 gate robotics observer like you said, and my opponent goes siege expand, the toss is behind. the price i pay for the map control(robotics) is bad economy( because my nex is delayed. after bunker rush i dont have to decide between economy (fast nex) or map control(fast robo), i get both!
Huh? You wouldn't be going 2 gate observer, you'd be going 2 gate range nex observer. What are you talking about?
oh i read it wrong. it doesnt matter because you just siwtch everything around.
if you go 2 gate nexus robo, then you delay map control because your obs will be late because you get nexus first. do you udnerstand what im saying? protoss usually cant have both, they have to choose between the two.
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
the lead from 12 nex getting bunker rushed isnt anything huge. probably something like a couple extra probes. plus when obs come out you have huge map control, terran is pretty muchforced to go defensive with siege mode and turrets, which means toss is free to do what he likes without having to worry about any cheesey early game all-ins like 2 fac which they usually have to worry about when taking their expo.
In other words, after-I-do-2-gate-range-nex-robo-obs I have map control. Well nice, but normally P has map control from the start, here he gets it way later. And this means he's ahead? OK
let me put it this way, if i toss go 2 gate robotics observer like you said, and my opponent goes siege expand, the toss is behind. the price i pay for the map control(robotics) is bad economy( because my nex is delayed. after bunker rush i dont have to decide between economy (fast nex) or map control(fast robo), i get both!
Huh? You wouldn't be going 2 gate observer, you'd be going 2 gate range nex observer. What are you talking about?
oh i read it wrong. it doesnt matter because you just siwtch everything around.
if you go 2 gate nexus robo, then you delay map control because your obs will be late because you get nexus first. do you udnerstand what im saying? protoss usually cant have both, they have to choose between the two.
so if you go 2 gate range, are you saying that the Terran can normally place 6 mines in front of your natural and you can't get map control earlier? Don't be ridiculous.
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
the lead from 12 nex getting bunker rushed isnt anything huge. probably something like a couple extra probes. plus when obs come out you have huge map control, terran is pretty muchforced to go defensive with siege mode and turrets, which means toss is free to do what he likes without having to worry about any cheesey early game all-ins like 2 fac which they usually have to worry about when taking their expo.
In other words, after-I-do-2-gate-range-nex-robo-obs I have map control. Well nice, but normally P has map control from the start, here he gets it way later. And this means he's ahead? OK
let me put it this way, if i toss go 2 gate robotics observer like you said, and my opponent goes siege expand, the toss is behind. the price i pay for the map control(robotics) is bad economy( because my nex is delayed. after bunker rush i dont have to decide between economy (fast nex) or map control(fast robo), i get both!
Huh? You wouldn't be going 2 gate observer, you'd be going 2 gate range nex observer. What are you talking about?
oh i read it wrong. it doesnt matter because you just siwtch everything around.
if you go 2 gate nexus robo, then you delay map control because your obs will be late because you get nexus first. do you udnerstand what im saying? protoss usually cant have both, they have to choose between the two.
so if you go 2 gate range, are you saying that the Terran can normally place 6 mines in front of your natural and you can't get map control earlier? Don't be ridiculous.
If they go 2 fac, yes. and 2 fac will destroy a 2 gate nexus robo build, which is why 2 gate nexus robo is rarely used.
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
the lead from 12 nex getting bunker rushed isnt anything huge. probably something like a couple extra probes. plus when obs come out you have huge map control, terran is pretty muchforced to go defensive with siege mode and turrets, which means toss is free to do what he likes without having to worry about any cheesey early game all-ins like 2 fac which they usually have to worry about when taking their expo.
In other words, after-I-do-2-gate-range-nex-robo-obs I have map control. Well nice, but normally P has map control from the start, here he gets it way later. And this means he's ahead? OK
let me put it this way, if i toss go 2 gate robotics observer like you said, and my opponent goes siege expand, the toss is behind. the price i pay for the map control(robotics) is bad economy( because my nex is delayed. after bunker rush i dont have to decide between economy (fast nex) or map control(fast robo), i get both!
Huh? You wouldn't be going 2 gate observer, you'd be going 2 gate range nex observer. What are you talking about?
oh i read it wrong. it doesnt matter because you just siwtch everything around.
if you go 2 gate nexus robo, then you delay map control because your obs will be late because you get nexus first. do you udnerstand what im saying? protoss usually cant have both, they have to choose between the two.
so if you go 2 gate range, are you saying that the Terran can normally place 6 mines in front of your natural and you can't get map control earlier? Don't be ridiculous.
If they go 2 fac, yes. and 2 fac will destroy a 2 gate nexus robo build, which is why 2 gate nexus robo is rarely used.
Do you honestly lose to 2fac when you go 2 gate range? Wow, I need to 2fac every game since I doubt my opponents are going to go for 3gates too often!
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
the lead from 12 nex getting bunker rushed isnt anything huge. probably something like a couple extra probes. plus when obs come out you have huge map control, terran is pretty muchforced to go defensive with siege mode and turrets, which means toss is free to do what he likes without having to worry about any cheesey early game all-ins like 2 fac which they usually have to worry about when taking their expo.
In other words, after-I-do-2-gate-range-nex-robo-obs I have map control. Well nice, but normally P has map control from the start, here he gets it way later. And this means he's ahead? OK
let me put it this way, if i toss go 2 gate robotics observer like you said, and my opponent goes siege expand, the toss is behind. the price i pay for the map control(robotics) is bad economy( because my nex is delayed. after bunker rush i dont have to decide between economy (fast nex) or map control(fast robo), i get both!
Huh? You wouldn't be going 2 gate observer, you'd be going 2 gate range nex observer. What are you talking about?
oh i read it wrong. it doesnt matter because you just siwtch everything around.
if you go 2 gate nexus robo, then you delay map control because your obs will be late because you get nexus first. do you udnerstand what im saying? protoss usually cant have both, they have to choose between the two.
so if you go 2 gate range, are you saying that the Terran can normally place 6 mines in front of your natural and you can't get map control earlier? Don't be ridiculous.
If they go 2 fac, yes. and 2 fac will destroy a 2 gate nexus robo build, which is why 2 gate nexus robo is rarely used.
Do you honestly lose to 2fac when you go 2 gate range? Wow, I need to 2fac every game since I doubt my opponents are going to go for 3gates too often!
Find a C+ korean terran. ask him to go 2 fac. go 2 gate nexus robo. you will get raped.
On February 10 2010 19:45 Shikyo wrote: [quote] Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
the lead from 12 nex getting bunker rushed isnt anything huge. probably something like a couple extra probes. plus when obs come out you have huge map control, terran is pretty muchforced to go defensive with siege mode and turrets, which means toss is free to do what he likes without having to worry about any cheesey early game all-ins like 2 fac which they usually have to worry about when taking their expo.
In other words, after-I-do-2-gate-range-nex-robo-obs I have map control. Well nice, but normally P has map control from the start, here he gets it way later. And this means he's ahead? OK
let me put it this way, if i toss go 2 gate robotics observer like you said, and my opponent goes siege expand, the toss is behind. the price i pay for the map control(robotics) is bad economy( because my nex is delayed. after bunker rush i dont have to decide between economy (fast nex) or map control(fast robo), i get both!
Huh? You wouldn't be going 2 gate observer, you'd be going 2 gate range nex observer. What are you talking about?
oh i read it wrong. it doesnt matter because you just siwtch everything around.
if you go 2 gate nexus robo, then you delay map control because your obs will be late because you get nexus first. do you udnerstand what im saying? protoss usually cant have both, they have to choose between the two.
so if you go 2 gate range, are you saying that the Terran can normally place 6 mines in front of your natural and you can't get map control earlier? Don't be ridiculous.
If they go 2 fac, yes. and 2 fac will destroy a 2 gate nexus robo build, which is why 2 gate nexus robo is rarely used.
Do you honestly lose to 2fac when you go 2 gate range? Wow, I need to 2fac every game since I doubt my opponents are going to go for 3gates too often!
Find a C+ korean terran. ask him to go 2 fac. go 2 gate nexus robo. you will get raped.
Maybe this is because I don't play Protoss, and I'm talking about 2gate range. If you scout they have no nat, do you honestly go for nexus? okkkkkkk
And even so, I don't see how 2 gate range loses to 2fac, I doubt the nex is before you scout a 2fac and even so, you have like 6 goons vs 1 tank and 2 vultures depending on the build, it's like the best thing you can do vs 2fac and... meh whatever -_-
Such gosu control... he sniped the lair while sniping the overlord while casting blanket storms all over t-bizzle's drones, completely annihilating the peon line (what was that, 10-15 kills easy?)
On February 10 2010 19:49 lazz wrote: [quote] the lead from 12 nex getting bunker rushed isnt anything huge. probably something like a couple extra probes. plus when obs come out you have huge map control, terran is pretty muchforced to go defensive with siege mode and turrets, which means toss is free to do what he likes without having to worry about any cheesey early game all-ins like 2 fac which they usually have to worry about when taking their expo.
In other words, after-I-do-2-gate-range-nex-robo-obs I have map control. Well nice, but normally P has map control from the start, here he gets it way later. And this means he's ahead? OK
let me put it this way, if i toss go 2 gate robotics observer like you said, and my opponent goes siege expand, the toss is behind. the price i pay for the map control(robotics) is bad economy( because my nex is delayed. after bunker rush i dont have to decide between economy (fast nex) or map control(fast robo), i get both!
Huh? You wouldn't be going 2 gate observer, you'd be going 2 gate range nex observer. What are you talking about?
oh i read it wrong. it doesnt matter because you just siwtch everything around.
if you go 2 gate nexus robo, then you delay map control because your obs will be late because you get nexus first. do you udnerstand what im saying? protoss usually cant have both, they have to choose between the two.
so if you go 2 gate range, are you saying that the Terran can normally place 6 mines in front of your natural and you can't get map control earlier? Don't be ridiculous.
If they go 2 fac, yes. and 2 fac will destroy a 2 gate nexus robo build, which is why 2 gate nexus robo is rarely used.
Do you honestly lose to 2fac when you go 2 gate range? Wow, I need to 2fac every game since I doubt my opponents are going to go for 3gates too often!
Find a C+ korean terran. ask him to go 2 fac. go 2 gate nexus robo. you will get raped.
Maybe this is because I don't play Protoss, and I'm talking about 2gate range. If you scout they have no nat, do you honestly go for nexus? okkkkkkk
you cant simply wait until you see they've taken their nat, because they can build their CC in their base and float it over. if you only build your nex when they float their CC over, you are terribly, terribly behind. it's part of the burden of early game as protoss, determining if terran is gonna be cheesey with 2 fac or go for a normal siege expand.
On February 10 2010 20:15 FastEddieV wrote: Such gosu control... he sniped the lair while sniping the overlord while casting blanket storms all over t-bizzle's drones, completely annihilating the peon line (what was that, 10-15 kills easy?)
I think it was all the drones at the expansions, plus the another 10-12 type-b sent over from the main. I think it's actually somewhere near 20 kills or so.
On February 10 2010 19:52 Shikyo wrote: [quote] In other words, after-I-do-2-gate-range-nex-robo-obs I have map control. Well nice, but normally P has map control from the start, here he gets it way later. And this means he's ahead? OK
let me put it this way, if i toss go 2 gate robotics observer like you said, and my opponent goes siege expand, the toss is behind. the price i pay for the map control(robotics) is bad economy( because my nex is delayed. after bunker rush i dont have to decide between economy (fast nex) or map control(fast robo), i get both!
Huh? You wouldn't be going 2 gate observer, you'd be going 2 gate range nex observer. What are you talking about?
oh i read it wrong. it doesnt matter because you just siwtch everything around.
if you go 2 gate nexus robo, then you delay map control because your obs will be late because you get nexus first. do you udnerstand what im saying? protoss usually cant have both, they have to choose between the two.
so if you go 2 gate range, are you saying that the Terran can normally place 6 mines in front of your natural and you can't get map control earlier? Don't be ridiculous.
If they go 2 fac, yes. and 2 fac will destroy a 2 gate nexus robo build, which is why 2 gate nexus robo is rarely used.
Do you honestly lose to 2fac when you go 2 gate range? Wow, I need to 2fac every game since I doubt my opponents are going to go for 3gates too often!
Find a C+ korean terran. ask him to go 2 fac. go 2 gate nexus robo. you will get raped.
Maybe this is because I don't play Protoss, and I'm talking about 2gate range. If you scout they have no nat, do you honestly go for nexus? okkkkkkk
you cant simply wait until you see they've taken their nat, because they can build their CC in their base and float it over. if you only build your nex when they float their CC over, you are terribly, terribly behind. it's part of the burden of early game as protoss, determining if terran is gonna be cheesey with 2 fac or go for a normal siege expand.
Assuming you'd find this out while you pressure their wallin/ramp/whatever but guess not.
On February 10 2010 19:59 lazz wrote: [quote] let me put it this way, if i toss go 2 gate robotics observer like you said, and my opponent goes siege expand, the toss is behind. the price i pay for the map control(robotics) is bad economy( because my nex is delayed. after bunker rush i dont have to decide between economy (fast nex) or map control(fast robo), i get both!
Huh? You wouldn't be going 2 gate observer, you'd be going 2 gate range nex observer. What are you talking about?
oh i read it wrong. it doesnt matter because you just siwtch everything around.
if you go 2 gate nexus robo, then you delay map control because your obs will be late because you get nexus first. do you udnerstand what im saying? protoss usually cant have both, they have to choose between the two.
so if you go 2 gate range, are you saying that the Terran can normally place 6 mines in front of your natural and you can't get map control earlier? Don't be ridiculous.
If they go 2 fac, yes. and 2 fac will destroy a 2 gate nexus robo build, which is why 2 gate nexus robo is rarely used.
Do you honestly lose to 2fac when you go 2 gate range? Wow, I need to 2fac every game since I doubt my opponents are going to go for 3gates too often!
Find a C+ korean terran. ask him to go 2 fac. go 2 gate nexus robo. you will get raped.
Maybe this is because I don't play Protoss, and I'm talking about 2gate range. If you scout they have no nat, do you honestly go for nexus? okkkkkkk
you cant simply wait until you see they've taken their nat, because they can build their CC in their base and float it over. if you only build your nex when they float their CC over, you are terribly, terribly behind. it's part of the burden of early game as protoss, determining if terran is gonna be cheesey with 2 fac or go for a normal siege expand.
Assuming you'd find this out while you pressure their wallin/ramp/whatever but guess not.
sometimes you can, sometimes you cant
good terran players will hide units from their 2nd factory if theyre 2 fac, hell, even D+ kors do this xD
Not such a great attack by type-b - he didn't commit many forces NICE follow up storm kills a bunch of hydra and a few lurkers including hitting some eggs bunch of speedzeal streaming towards type-b's morphing 1
more hydraling stream into 9 to attach kal's warping nexus - here comes the zealot drop at 5 - shuttle is scourged but the 4 zealots take down a creep colony and get a few kills - some hydra? clean it up
kal repels attack at 9, the nexus finishes
type-b attacks the nat - but storm/reaver repels him
Man Kal is just showing how good a surgeon he is here. Sniping hatcheries, an 8-drone killing storm, and defending from what looks at first like almost overwhelming forces at his front. So glad he's STX!
kal has 3 reavers at his nat - now moving forward - storming a LOT of reavers, and scarabs killing a few too but there's more than a dozen reavers left hydraling stream in to defend the lurkers, a storm drives them away a LOT of forces arrayed to defend but whenever they attack kal maneuvers well and lets zerg eat scarabs 5 reavers now!
type-b taking 6 kal gaining ground, killing lots of stuff while keeping his reavesr alive lots of nice storms storming a HUGE amount of stuff killing > 9 lurkers and tons of hydraling
133 to 118 supply lead for kal kal only hast templar and reavers left, basically type-b has very few lurkers left out of his original contain - 6 or so what a powerful attack by kal
great balance of lurker line / contain micro, expanding and macro by type-b. kal played his usual good but i don't think the map favors P breaking out =\
Well, that's it for Kal as next map is heavily zerg favored. We will probably lose one of the most exciting Protoss in this OSL for another mediocre, run-of-the-mill zerg =[
On February 10 2010 20:44 bias- wrote: great balance of lurker line / contain micro, expanding and macro by type-b. kal played his usual good but i don't think the map favors P breaking out =\
watch Pure vs Zero on how to slowly break zerg's contain
On February 10 2010 20:44 bias- wrote: great balance of lurker line / contain micro, expanding and macro by type-b. kal played his usual good but i don't think the map favors P breaking out =\
watch Pure vs Zero on how to slowly break zerg's contain
last post before this goes off topic, but i was just commenting on the map not favoring it. not saying myself nor Kal don't know how to slowly break a contain. commending type-b's job and the map setup.
On February 10 2010 20:44 bias- wrote: great balance of lurker line / contain micro, expanding and macro by type-b. kal played his usual good but i don't think the map favors P breaking out =\
watch Pure vs Zero on how to slowly break zerg's contain
last post before this goes off topic, but i was just commenting on the map not favoring it. not saying myself nor Kal don't know how to slowly break a contain. commending type-b's job and the map setup.
I also liked how type-b took drones of gas after he had the hydra-ling contain. The lurkers were a bit late but the timing was perfect. Very good management from type-b overall.
On February 10 2010 20:44 bias- wrote: great balance of lurker line / contain micro, expanding and macro by type-b. kal played his usual good but i don't think the map favors P breaking out =\
watch Pure vs Zero on how to slowly break zerg's contain
last post before this goes off topic, but i was just commenting on the map not favoring it. not saying myself nor Kal don't know how to slowly break a contain. commending type-b's job and the map setup.
I didnt say that, I mentioned that game because it was on Fighting Spirit.
On February 10 2010 20:44 bias- wrote: great balance of lurker line / contain micro, expanding and macro by type-b. kal played his usual good but i don't think the map favors P breaking out =\
watch Pure vs Zero on how to slowly break zerg's contain
Well that was a totally different situation, Pure had opened with sair\reaver and got his 3rd up pretty fast iirc. Kal was basically trying to break out of a huge contain from 1-1,5 bases the entire time. He never had a big eco supporting him since he could not get up his 3rd until his main\nat was close to mined out.
citadel first, 2 sairs are out now 7 speedzealots attack 3 - but run as 2 sunkens just finish, with 2 hydra despite wall not complete for the sunkents they probe 2 - but again run when see hydra/sunken
kal has observers out even before the first lurkers just start morphing
kal moves out with goon vs lings, type-b uses that moment to pursue the sairs with scourge, but the scourge run quickly enough and there's enough goons in the back to save them
type-b moves in with mutas and eat a lot of hits
major goon/sair force moving out, with templar support
so many dead hydra to storm/goon kal taking 9 - I think he played this time to not get contained sairs sent to 1 - there's a big clump of ol's upper right middle that they're missing more hydra/lurker attack almost all killed now that kal has no templars the next hydraling attack getting a few goon kills
Why doesn't IdrA stop whining about 14 Nexus. With he's acclaimed skill, and the practice schedule of a progamer he should be able to rally 3 marines, 4 SCVs and the First Vulture to take it out. It doesn't require Flash Micro.
because Kal was ahead even after the nexus died.
Really would like to know why. MVP lost no SCVs and had his 2nd CC up before Kal's, in addition to having mines accross the map meaning that he could safely build a bit less units to get his infrastructure up earlier, having the knowledge Kal would need to go for range in order to clear the bunker and hence had almost a legal maphack, in addition to this Kal's supply wasn't as much above MVP's as it would be in standard play, not to mention the fact that Kal wouldn't be able to put any pressure on MVP for the early game, and that his potential DTs or Robo units would be too late to do anything.
Anything specific?
That's my point. Why super micro, and decent scounting 12 nexus on most maps is not that strong anymore at this level and for top foreigners
hydraling at 9, but there's 4 goons/3 cannons, enough to hold them off for the moment 2 dt's in kal's unit mix - and overlord eliminated! 4 are rushing down to support
Kal seting up a new 3d at the 6 o clock. Type-B just now getting up a 4th an seems low on troops/drones. His build might have been a little too all-in to compete any longer
yup lost, quite horrible play early on, needed o mass lings like crazy and wait for kal to attack his bases before engaging. that early horribleness cost him the game imo
another fight close to the middle - type-b eats a storm and retreats almost all of type-b's hydralurk killed, kal faces another group - totally running over them type-b gg's
On February 10 2010 21:06 Crunchums wrote: I always wondered why protoss never tried that style of play - a regular ground army while using sairs to prevent templar sniping.
they do... thus Protoss has been doing a lot better vs the hydra/muta lately.
I dtrongly believethat vs that kind of an army composition you need a crapton of hydraling with a few scourge and lurkers and a triple evo and a pretty fast hive and third exp. sadly it gets crushed by zealtemp, otherwise I'd do it every game ^^
i'm trying to figure out the genius bit. I guess you could say taking out the turret to let the reaver in...but the game was well over before that point. Maybe holding his initial goon back till he had enough to snipe the bunker before SCV's arrived? I guess? thats not so much genius as mvp being shit. maybe theres something i'm missing
In game 3 the winner did something very subtle and genius in order to win. Can you spot it?
What did he do that was so genius?
The pylon placed at the wall must have indicated that Kal was going for a dropbuild. The pylon to the northeast was planted so that MVP would spot it and confirm that theory. edit: as in faking a proxy. MVP never did spot the proxy pylon, but I think the entire idea of both pylons was to fake a drop build.
MVP thinking Kal went for a dropbuild delayed his initial tank and went for an ebay instead, thus the tank arrived too late to stop the early goon/zealot push.
Man, I am glad to see protoss make it into the ro16, especially when its a dragon. But I really wish Kal didn't have to knock out type-b to do it and instead ran over some other no-name zerg. I really like that guy and I think his play is greatly underrated. Maybe next season type-b!
Kal for me has always been a macro beast...in the game he lost vs Z game 5...he went for all the expensive unit while not having a solid army to kill the defiler + mass zerg army...that was pretty bad to see...
WLW X2. Kal cutting it a little close. glad at least one toss is doing well nowadays.
On February 11 2010 04:35 lone_hydra wrote: I just noticed Kal's elo actually went down after the OSL. Weird?
Not really, 1 loss to MVP hurts waaaay more than the 2 wins helps him, and 2-1 over Type-B either didnt increase by much or actually lowered it as well. ie win=+2, loss=-8, total=-4
In game 3 the winner did something very subtle and genius in order to win. Can you spot it?
What did he do that was so genius?
The pylon placed at the wall must have indicated that Kal was going for a dropbuild. The pylon to the northeast was planted so that MVP would spot it and confirm that theory. edit: as in faking a proxy. MVP never did spot the proxy pylon, but I think the entire idea of both pylons was to fake a drop build.
MVP thinking Kal went for a dropbuild delayed his initial tank and went for an ebay instead, thus the tank arrived too late to stop the early goon/zealot push.
Did I get it right?
I'm going to shamelessly quote myself, hoping to get a comment on at least what the OP thought was the subtle, genius move.
In game 3 the winner did something very subtle and genius in order to win. Can you spot it?
What did he do that was so genius?
The pylon placed at the wall must have indicated that Kal was going for a dropbuild. The pylon to the northeast was planted so that MVP would spot it and confirm that theory. edit: as in faking a proxy. MVP never did spot the proxy pylon, but I think the entire idea of both pylons was to fake a drop build.
MVP thinking Kal went for a dropbuild delayed his initial tank and went for an ebay instead, thus the tank arrived too late to stop the early goon/zealot push.
Did I get it right?
I'm going to shamelessly quote myself, hoping to get a comment on at least what the OP thought was the subtle, genius move.
The pylon at the choke was a standard opening PvT on there. Pylon + zealot = wall. Everyone does that. From then on it was a simple gas cut 2 gate dragoon wall break. Either the op thinks that the build everyone did on Longinus for years is somehow subtle or he's overcomplicating things. The game was extremely standard.
Hahahhah the clip was funny - Door won't open Flash is not going to win this OSL. Anybody wants a bet for 100 bucks with me? And i am really happy that Kal won.
In game 3 the winner did something very subtle and genius in order to win. Can you spot it?
What did he do that was so genius?
The pylon placed at the wall must have indicated that Kal was going for a dropbuild. The pylon to the northeast was planted so that MVP would spot it and confirm that theory. edit: as in faking a proxy. MVP never did spot the proxy pylon, but I think the entire idea of both pylons was to fake a drop build.
MVP thinking Kal went for a dropbuild delayed his initial tank and went for an ebay instead, thus the tank arrived too late to stop the early goon/zealot push.
Did I get it right?
I'm going to shamelessly quote myself, hoping to get a comment on at least what the OP thought was the subtle, genius move.
The pylon at the choke was a standard opening PvT on there. Pylon + zealot = wall. Everyone does that. From then on it was a simple gas cut 2 gate dragoon wall break. Either the op thinks that the build everyone did on Longinus for years is somehow subtle or he's overcomplicating things. The game was extremely standard.
Felt a little like grasping for straws to see "genius" there, so I'm with you on that Do wonder what the thought was behind the pylon to the NE though............ ideas?
On February 11 2010 19:54 Ricjames wrote: Hahahhah the clip was funny - Door won't open Flash is not going to win this OSL. Anybody wants a bet for 100 bucks with me? And i am really happy that Kal won.
You are not correct to provide such bet, since you bet on 15 people and the other party bets on only 1, of course Flash is Flash, but you have to give some better odds if you want someone to bet with you.)
On February 11 2010 19:54 Ricjames wrote: Hahahhah the clip was funny - Door won't open Flash is not going to win this OSL. Anybody wants a bet for 100 bucks with me? And i am really happy that Kal won.
You are not correct to provide such bet, since you bet on 15 people and the other party bets on only 1, of course Flash is Flash, but you have to give some better odds if you want someone to bet with you.)
That't the point here. I need to get some hardcore Flash fan to bet ;D Then Flash get raped and ez money right there
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/KAOSL.jpg)
MVP < Great Barrier Reef > 
Kal
type-b < Great Barrier Reef > Winner of Match 1
I didn't know that
