EPT[Day9 Cast] Nostalgia Tournament! - Page 4
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Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
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aiyeeta
United States199 Posts
Just a bit of rough math: Idra had over 3k mineral reserves. That's upwards of 40 Vultures. That's 120 spidermines. Don't get me wrong, Idra did really well. It was delicious watching that game. I'm just saying I agree with Day and that being able to reinforce entire vulture control groups instantly is awesome. | ||
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qppa
Poland66 Posts
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
That said, we do need to stop and consider machinehead's posts quite seriously. Why shouldn't people take my statements completely literally? As machinehead pointed out, in almost every TvT we see both players let their money ramp up to >5k as the game progresses. Even I will easily admit that it's insane to assume I'd watch every game and go "wow.... every single terran player here is awful because they can't spend their money!" Though I still stand by my statement 100% that players need to spend their friggin money (esp in the game we saw last night), machinehead brings up some excellent subtleties that, again, require a long time to flesh out because its such a complex, interesting topic. | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On November 03 2009 05:56 sashkata wrote: Is this lost like the Day[9] Daily? livestream just deleted half my videos due to some errors. I'm trying to retrieve them. It might take a week or so :[ | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
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machinehead..
412 Posts
 If you based your tvp game plan on the following 2 things: 1) spend minerals as quickly as you can. 2) max as quickly as you can/produce as many units, then you would have to ask yourself, "why do Terrans not use the max in 12 minute strategy?" There is a one machine shop, mass factories strategy that can enable you to max in around 11-12 minutes -- it's flat out absurdly fast. Unit composition. "Bang for the buck." Those are the ideas/concepts that should prevent you from seeing things as black and white as "spending minerals = infallible." If you don't uphold the unit composition that you perceive to be ideal or optimal, then, in essence, you would rationalize you will be "throwing away" minerals if you were to engage the opponent with an inferior unit composition. Tanks are like gold in tvp. Vultures are like a security blanket for a late-game minded player. In Idra's game, due to having the ninja expo, he was ahead of white-ra in economy. What that means is, he doesn't need a whole lot of vultures to do harassment with -- he already has the economic situation he wants. Therefore his goal is to make as many tanks as he can, and to be able to have enough vultures to protect/support them. If you go vulture heavy and protoss makes an arbiter, what do you do when they stasis your tanks? Keep retreating? Sooner or later, you are going to have to arrive at the ideal unit composition to complete the puzzle, which is winning the game. | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On November 03 2009 12:04 machinehead.. wrote: You are far too kind If you based your tvp game plan on the following 2 things: 1) spend minerals as quickly as you can. 2) max as quickly as you can/produce as many units, then you would have to ask yourself, "why do Terrans not use the max in 12 minute strategy?" There is a one machine shop, mass factories strategy that can enable you to max in around 11-12 minutes -- it's flat out absurdly fast. Unit composition. "Bang for the buck." Those are the ideas/concepts that should prevent you from seeing things as black and white as "spending minerals = infallible." If you don't uphold the unit composition that you perceive to be ideal or optimal, then, in essence, you would rationalize you will be "throwing away" minerals if you were to engage the opponent with an inferior unit composition. Extremely well worded point. Unit composition is a very key concept when approaching maxed. I would also hate to think anyone takes ANYTHING I say as "rule based" and I never think of anything in terms of black / white. When I say "spend that damn money," I really want people to think about the reason their money is climbing. In the case of the TvP I viewed on Nostalgia, terran's minerals began increasing, but there really didn't appear to be the proper justification/situation to let it climb so high. Hence, why I repeated the money needed to be spent. Anytime your money begins to climb, the question should be "did I plan for this to happen?" Tanks are like gold in tvp. Vultures are like a security blanket for a late-game minded player. In Idra's game, due to having the ninja expo, he was ahead of white-ra in economy. What that means is, he doesn't need a whole lot of vultures to do harassment with -- he already has the economic situation he wants. Therefore his goal is to make as many tanks as he can, and to be able to have enough vultures to protect/support them. If you go vulture heavy and protoss makes an arbiter, what do you do when they stasis your tanks? Keep retreating? Sooner or later, you are going to have to arrive at the ideal unit composition to complete the puzzle, which is winning the game. Again, very well worded and lots of good insight. I do think, however, in Idra vs White-Ra specifically, there was plenty of money to end the game much earlier, or to do creative things while STILL having the same tank count. For instance, suppose we are at 130 or 140 food as terran and we think "I really want to have a mostly tank army at 200/200." If we have a huge excess of minerals, we can make lots of vultures, and do lots of harassment and (perhaps) slow forward movement to key positions (which in nostalgia's case would be the center). As our vultures die, we replace the deaths with tanks, slowly building up our count. What I'm describing is the technique popularized by Nada (harass w/ vults, build up huge tank army w/ gas). I'm extremely glad you've provided this discussion because I'd HATE for anyone to take away the wrong point: spend money for the sake of spending it (which, as you correctly note, results in a potentially undesirable unit composition). It's always good to force more logic/clarification out of things. It forces people to think! | ||
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machinehead..
412 Posts
Once you max and you have the unit composition you wanted, and didn't have to "throw away" minerals, you are going to be able to then add mass factories and life will be bliss. When there is not urgency to spend, it will probably be wise to reserve the money for a time when it can be better spent. There is more stuff I could get into to explain why I prefer how Idra played, but 99% of the time I feel what you are saying is going to be the best course of action, so it's almost a moot point. To add: harassment is still important in that kinda situation, but the objective switches (in my mind): your main objective is to distract the toss player, keeping him from sitting back and pondering "could he have a hidden expo; I should scout more." Anything more than creating a distraction is gravy. Day[9] fighting. Looking forward to when you play in one of these events and also cast it | ||
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s_side
United States700 Posts
Oh, and tell the GF she needs to not just deal with, but LOVE, the beard. | ||
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