Day, you are great and your casts are superb, but I did feel that your critique of Idra was off base (the nostalgia game): Idra had a lot of minerals but only around 200 gas, so it wasn't like he could use the excess minerals on factories -- 2 at the most, and given that Idra had 3 shops, the priority there was to make sure he could pump 3 tanks, continuously. On nostalgia, being able to amass as many tanks as you can is even more important than on other maps (harder to come by) -- hence the "ninja" expo.

You do a great job! It just seemed like you might have forgotten that factories take gas to build, or you haven't played much tvp on nostalgia

Anyways, keep up the good work!

Day[9]

United States7366 Posts

November 02 2009 11:50 GMT

#45

i was not off base at all i'm dead on the money always

don't let your money get high

spend that damn money

Mortician

Bulgaria2332 Posts

November 02 2009 11:52 GMT

#46

When are vods coming ?

Day[9]

United States7366 Posts

November 02 2009 12:00 GMT

#47

On November 02 2009 20:18 machinehead.. wrote:
Day, you are great and your casts are superb, but I did feel that your critique of Idra was off base (the nostalgia game): Idra had a lot of minerals but only around 200 gas, so it wasn't like he could use the excess minerals on factories -- 2 at the most, and given that Idra had 3 shops, the priority there was to make sure he could pump 3 tanks, continuously. On nostalgia, being able to amass as many tanks as you can is even more important than on other maps (harder to come by) -- hence the "ninja" expo.

You do a great job! It just seemed like you might have forgotten that factories take gas to build, or you haven't played much tvp on nostalgia

Anyways, keep up the good work!

i mean seriously, explain to me VERY clearly with LOTS of detail why on EARTH we aren't cutting 2 tanks in order to add 2 more factories. or, explain to me VERY clearly with LOTS of detail why we aren't spending that money on anything else non factory related?

moreover, look at the huge underlying issue in your logic. you say

Idra had alot of minerals but only around 200 gas.

What good gameplan revolves around having tons of minerals lying around? Most players tend to hit Idra's situation and say "wow i have all this money! I guess its ok because I feel like i'm winning and i feel low on gas." The CORRECT logic is to go "how can i plan on spending this huge excess of minerals in the first place?" Idra cleverly took the expo to help boost his gas (and we clearly saw him take advantage of this). But Idra did NOT seem to have a plan on what to do with all those extra minerals and he should have. Money sitting around in the bank is undeniably completely bad and should always be weeded out.

My analysis of this situation is "Idra likely doesn't play on Nostalgia ever and rarely plays on Min only natural maps, so when he winged it he still did a great job and almost certainly noted how many minerals he had doing nothing."

It just seemed like you might have forgotten that factories take gas to build, or you haven't played much tvp on nostalgia

and that seems quite a bit snarky

machinehead..

412 Posts

November 02 2009 12:01 GMT

#48

I guess Idra could have spent a lot of money on turrets to stop a recall that wasn't possible... Ideally you eventually have enough gas expos so that your gas count catches up to your minerals and then you make those factories. You really don't want to get maxed in tvp with 80% vultures... There wasn't going to be anything positive about having a few more vultures...

Day[9]

United States7366 Posts

November 02 2009 12:03 GMT

#49

And that same logic of "but he was low on gas" is what prevented terran's from playing modern TvP forever. Way back when Nostalgia ORIGINALLY came out, terran players actually had difficulty keeping GAS low on TvP. Terrans realized that vultures were key to aggressive pushes and stuck with tons of non-addon factories for quite a long time. When people would ask why the gas got so high, terrans responded very similarly to how you did: "well they are low on minerals so they can't really spend the gas, so its ok!"

I'm making a HUGE emphasis on this point because, for some weird reason, in the last 4 weeks, I've spoken to TONS of people who KEEP trying to justify money in the bank. Just SPEND it for crying out loud. If ANY of you start to feel comfortable w/ a ton of money, stop and think about the justification behind it. You'll soon see some gaping holes that are likely preventing you from improving

ProoM

Lithuania1741 Posts

November 02 2009 12:03 GMT

#50

omg spoiler day 9 ;D. Missed the games, looking forward to watch the games in on-demand mode

. You are doing a great job overal!

Day[9]

United States7366 Posts

November 02 2009 12:04 GMT

#51

On November 02 2009 21:01 machinehead.. wrote:
I guess Idra could have spent a lot of money on turrets to stop a recall that wasn't possible... Ideally you eventually have enough gas expos so that your gas count catches up to your minerals and then you make those factories. You really don't want to get maxed in tvp with 80% vultures... There wasn't going to be anything positive about having a few more vultures...

See, you're saying "you don't want to get maxed with so many vultures."

But, if you are SPENDING all that money BEFORE you get maxed, you can be MUCH more aggressive and still have the same tank count. Again, having proper planning allows for spending of the money

machinehead..

412 Posts

November 02 2009 12:15 GMT

#52

I'm not sure if you are being serious. If you are though, I'm surprised by your simplistic and short-term approach. In general your advice is correct, but on nostalgia it is almost impossible to avoid the money ratio that Idra had. It's simply a characteristic of playing on that map. What it boils down to is money not wasted on static D, when you don't need it, is going to be money you can devote to units in the later stages of the game, which is obviously more important. Idra does not play an aggressive game; when he maxes he is going to want to have as many tanks in his army as possible, to simply run over his opponent with that 1 big attack. A maxed Terran army that doesn't have an appropriate tank count is simply too vulnerable. Idra did the right thing, even if it looked "bad/wrong."

Day[9]

United States7366 Posts

November 02 2009 12:21 GMT

#53

you don't understand dude, i have a tv show

machinehead..

412 Posts

November 02 2009 12:21 GMT

#54

If your game plan was to make as many factories as you could, simply for the sake of spending all your minerals, if you were to lose any tanks at all, you would be on the brink of losing at any second.

p.s. I love the tv show

Ao_Jun

Denmark396 Posts

November 02 2009 12:37 GMT

#55

On November 02 2009 21:21 Day[9] wrote:
you don't understand dude, i have a tv show

HAHAHAHA
This owned me, i think i'm getting fired!

Man, it was worth it! :D

Day[9]

United States7366 Posts

November 02 2009 12:42 GMT

#56

it's an interesting topic of discussion, but i desperately have to goto sleep. in fact, as i've said, SOOO many people seem to create justifications around not spending money. to appropriately address the issue, i'll have to do a PODCAST!!! look for it in the future ^_^

machinehead..

412 Posts

November 02 2009 12:56 GMT

#57

The only time I would make a justification for not spending money is on nostalgia (tvt has the same scenario, but I don't play it, so I don't have thoughts on it). It really is the exception to the "rule." If you want to spend your money on nostalgia in tvp, that usually entails incorporating m&m with your army. I don't think many Terrans are comfortable playing that style though. I'm not trying to knock on a good thing. Can't wait for your future analysis!

5ukkub

Poland507 Posts

November 02 2009 13:57 GMT

#58

I beg you plz upload the cast so we can watch it!

d(O.o)a

Canada5066 Posts

November 02 2009 13:58 GMT

#59

Machine what are you saving this money for? a rainy day? how does having a bunch of minerals in the bank benefit you in any way when you could have more vultures out allowing you to push earlier and have more map control. Day is suggesting he cut 2 (OMFG CRAZY WTF HOW INSANE) tanks. TWO! so he can have 2 more facts for vultures to come out of meaning a bigger army and less money in the bank.