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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
![[image loading]](http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/931247/banners/nostalgia.jpg) We've got three really exciting series to cast for the Nostalgia tournament this weekend! WHEN Sunday 8pm PST (11pm EST) WHERE DAY[9]'s Livestream! Games? Nostalgia Group Finals + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www.wgtour.com/flag/United_States.gif) ![[image loading]](http://www.wgtour.com/flag/Ukraine.gif) Lost Temple Group Finals + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www.wgtour.com/flag/Germany.gif) ![[image loading]](http://www.wgtour.com/flag/Poland.gif) Valhalla Group Finals + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www.wgtour.com/flag/Norway.gif) **Slight lag in the Neo Requiem group, still some games to be played!** What's on the line? The winner of each of these receives $250 and advances to the Final 4 for another $500! | ||
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
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BreaK
Canada890 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32277 Posts
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AtlaS
United States1001 Posts
MaNa | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
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TheMango
United States1967 Posts
On October 30 2009 15:18 BreaK wrote: Is there a link to the brackets? I would love to see how these (excellent) players got here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101892 | ||
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XIII
483 Posts
after they are done or after the whole tour? | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On October 30 2009 15:46 AtlaS wrote: + Show Spoiler + MaNa Him and Kolll are the next big things | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
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selboN
United States2523 Posts
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TT1
Canada10011 Posts
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Etherone
United States1898 Posts
On October 30 2009 23:20 Xeris wrote: I'm going to release the replays of each group after the final for it is played (aka Monday probably) how long, after the replays are released would you expect day 9 would be able to set up the cast, and will it be a live cast or a recorded cast? | ||
739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On October 31 2009 04:37 iamtt1 wrote: im so confused about our group, when are we suppose to play the semis? your group is totally fucked I need to replace people =P | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On October 31 2009 05:13 crucifix wrote: Kolll is average, sorry to say :\ And MaNa is European Horang2 :3 average now, but with age comes experience | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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bEsT[Alive]
606 Posts
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Jadyks
United States119 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
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nicoaldo
Argentina939 Posts
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dekuschrub
United States2069 Posts
looks like im just in time! GETTEM IDRA | ||
Harem
United States11391 Posts
 It used his own hydra zvz build against him imo. | ||
MooCow
1434 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +  | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
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RunningThrough
United States14 Posts
If you watch it you should ignore about all of them. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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nayumi
Australia6499 Posts
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FirstBorn
Romania3955 Posts
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myrmidon2537
Philippines2188 Posts
On November 02 2009 14:26 Kimaker wrote: Hey Day, would you ever do a show match vs. Tastelss for us all to watch? You know, get a bit of old testament biblical fratricide going on. ^_^ I like this idea =) TL make it happen!!! | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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GTR
51484 Posts
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
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DoX.)
Singapore6164 Posts
On November 02 2009 16:13 myrmidon2537 wrote: I like this idea =) TL make it happen!!! | ||
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machinehead..
412 Posts
You do a great job! It just seemed like you might have forgotten that factories take gas to build, or you haven't played much tvp on nostalgia Anyways, keep up the good work! | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
don't let your money get high spend that damn money | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On November 02 2009 20:18 machinehead.. wrote: Day, you are great and your casts are superb, but I did feel that your critique of Idra was off base (the nostalgia game): Idra had a lot of minerals but only around 200 gas, so it wasn't like he could use the excess minerals on factories -- 2 at the most, and given that Idra had 3 shops, the priority there was to make sure he could pump 3 tanks, continuously. On nostalgia, being able to amass as many tanks as you can is even more important than on other maps (harder to come by) -- hence the "ninja" expo. You do a great job! It just seemed like you might have forgotten that factories take gas to build, or you haven't played much tvp on nostalgia Anyways, keep up the good work!i mean seriously, explain to me VERY clearly with LOTS of detail why on EARTH we aren't cutting 2 tanks in order to add 2 more factories. or, explain to me VERY clearly with LOTS of detail why we aren't spending that money on anything else non factory related? moreover, look at the huge underlying issue in your logic. you say Idra had alot of minerals but only around 200 gas. What good gameplan revolves around having tons of minerals lying around? Most players tend to hit Idra's situation and say "wow i have all this money! I guess its ok because I feel like i'm winning and i feel low on gas." The CORRECT logic is to go "how can i plan on spending this huge excess of minerals in the first place?" Idra cleverly took the expo to help boost his gas (and we clearly saw him take advantage of this). But Idra did NOT seem to have a plan on what to do with all those extra minerals and he should have. Money sitting around in the bank is undeniably completely bad and should always be weeded out. My analysis of this situation is "Idra likely doesn't play on Nostalgia ever and rarely plays on Min only natural maps, so when he winged it he still did a great job and almost certainly noted how many minerals he had doing nothing." It just seemed like you might have forgotten that factories take gas to build, or you haven't played much tvp on nostalgia and that seems quite a bit snarky | ||
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machinehead..
412 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
I'm making a HUGE emphasis on this point because, for some weird reason, in the last 4 weeks, I've spoken to TONS of people who KEEP trying to justify money in the bank. Just SPEND it for crying out loud. If ANY of you start to feel comfortable w/ a ton of money, stop and think about the justification behind it. You'll soon see some gaping holes that are likely preventing you from improving | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
. You are doing a great job overal! | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On November 02 2009 21:01 machinehead.. wrote: I guess Idra could have spent a lot of money on turrets to stop a recall that wasn't possible... Ideally you eventually have enough gas expos so that your gas count catches up to your minerals and then you make those factories. You really don't want to get maxed in tvp with 80% vultures... There wasn't going to be anything positive about having a few more vultures... See, you're saying "you don't want to get maxed with so many vultures." But, if you are SPENDING all that money BEFORE you get maxed, you can be MUCH more aggressive and still have the same tank count. Again, having proper planning allows for spending of the money | ||
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machinehead..
412 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
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machinehead..
412 Posts
p.s. I love the tv show | ||
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Ao_Jun
Denmark396 Posts
On November 02 2009 21:21 Day[9] wrote: you don't understand dude, i have a tv show HAHAHAHA This owned me, i think i'm getting fired! Man, it was worth it! :D | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
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machinehead..
412 Posts
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5ukkub
Poland507 Posts
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
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Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
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aiyeeta
United States199 Posts
Just a bit of rough math: Idra had over 3k mineral reserves. That's upwards of 40 Vultures. That's 120 spidermines. Don't get me wrong, Idra did really well. It was delicious watching that game. I'm just saying I agree with Day and that being able to reinforce entire vulture control groups instantly is awesome. | ||
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qppa
Poland66 Posts
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
That said, we do need to stop and consider machinehead's posts quite seriously. Why shouldn't people take my statements completely literally? As machinehead pointed out, in almost every TvT we see both players let their money ramp up to >5k as the game progresses. Even I will easily admit that it's insane to assume I'd watch every game and go "wow.... every single terran player here is awful because they can't spend their money!" Though I still stand by my statement 100% that players need to spend their friggin money (esp in the game we saw last night), machinehead brings up some excellent subtleties that, again, require a long time to flesh out because its such a complex, interesting topic. | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On November 03 2009 05:56 sashkata wrote: Is this lost like the Day[9] Daily? livestream just deleted half my videos due to some errors. I'm trying to retrieve them. It might take a week or so :[ | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
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machinehead..
412 Posts
If you based your tvp game plan on the following 2 things: 1) spend minerals as quickly as you can. 2) max as quickly as you can/produce as many units, then you would have to ask yourself, "why do Terrans not use the max in 12 minute strategy?" There is a one machine shop, mass factories strategy that can enable you to max in around 11-12 minutes -- it's flat out absurdly fast. Unit composition. "Bang for the buck." Those are the ideas/concepts that should prevent you from seeing things as black and white as "spending minerals = infallible." If you don't uphold the unit composition that you perceive to be ideal or optimal, then, in essence, you would rationalize you will be "throwing away" minerals if you were to engage the opponent with an inferior unit composition. Tanks are like gold in tvp. Vultures are like a security blanket for a late-game minded player. In Idra's game, due to having the ninja expo, he was ahead of white-ra in economy. What that means is, he doesn't need a whole lot of vultures to do harassment with -- he already has the economic situation he wants. Therefore his goal is to make as many tanks as he can, and to be able to have enough vultures to protect/support them. If you go vulture heavy and protoss makes an arbiter, what do you do when they stasis your tanks? Keep retreating? Sooner or later, you are going to have to arrive at the ideal unit composition to complete the puzzle, which is winning the game. | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On November 03 2009 12:04 machinehead.. wrote: You are far too kind If you based your tvp game plan on the following 2 things: 1) spend minerals as quickly as you can. 2) max as quickly as you can/produce as many units, then you would have to ask yourself, "why do Terrans not use the max in 12 minute strategy?" There is a one machine shop, mass factories strategy that can enable you to max in around 11-12 minutes -- it's flat out absurdly fast. Unit composition. "Bang for the buck." Those are the ideas/concepts that should prevent you from seeing things as black and white as "spending minerals = infallible." If you don't uphold the unit composition that you perceive to be ideal or optimal, then, in essence, you would rationalize you will be "throwing away" minerals if you were to engage the opponent with an inferior unit composition. Extremely well worded point. Unit composition is a very key concept when approaching maxed. I would also hate to think anyone takes ANYTHING I say as "rule based" and I never think of anything in terms of black / white. When I say "spend that damn money," I really want people to think about the reason their money is climbing. In the case of the TvP I viewed on Nostalgia, terran's minerals began increasing, but there really didn't appear to be the proper justification/situation to let it climb so high. Hence, why I repeated the money needed to be spent. Anytime your money begins to climb, the question should be "did I plan for this to happen?" Tanks are like gold in tvp. Vultures are like a security blanket for a late-game minded player. In Idra's game, due to having the ninja expo, he was ahead of white-ra in economy. What that means is, he doesn't need a whole lot of vultures to do harassment with -- he already has the economic situation he wants. Therefore his goal is to make as many tanks as he can, and to be able to have enough vultures to protect/support them. If you go vulture heavy and protoss makes an arbiter, what do you do when they stasis your tanks? Keep retreating? Sooner or later, you are going to have to arrive at the ideal unit composition to complete the puzzle, which is winning the game. Again, very well worded and lots of good insight. I do think, however, in Idra vs White-Ra specifically, there was plenty of money to end the game much earlier, or to do creative things while STILL having the same tank count. For instance, suppose we are at 130 or 140 food as terran and we think "I really want to have a mostly tank army at 200/200." If we have a huge excess of minerals, we can make lots of vultures, and do lots of harassment and (perhaps) slow forward movement to key positions (which in nostalgia's case would be the center). As our vultures die, we replace the deaths with tanks, slowly building up our count. What I'm describing is the technique popularized by Nada (harass w/ vults, build up huge tank army w/ gas). I'm extremely glad you've provided this discussion because I'd HATE for anyone to take away the wrong point: spend money for the sake of spending it (which, as you correctly note, results in a potentially undesirable unit composition). It's always good to force more logic/clarification out of things. It forces people to think! | ||
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machinehead..
412 Posts
Once you max and you have the unit composition you wanted, and didn't have to "throw away" minerals, you are going to be able to then add mass factories and life will be bliss. When there is not urgency to spend, it will probably be wise to reserve the money for a time when it can be better spent. There is more stuff I could get into to explain why I prefer how Idra played, but 99% of the time I feel what you are saying is going to be the best course of action, so it's almost a moot point. To add: harassment is still important in that kinda situation, but the objective switches (in my mind): your main objective is to distract the toss player, keeping him from sitting back and pondering "could he have a hidden expo; I should scout more." Anything more than creating a distraction is gravy. Day[9] fighting. Looking forward to when you play in one of these events and also cast it | ||
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s_side
United States700 Posts
Oh, and tell the GF she needs to not just deal with, but LOVE, the beard. | ||
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