EPT[Q] Another One of Those Bunker Rush Threads - Page 2
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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Raidy
Japan87 Posts
On July 25 2009 14:29 tobi9999 wrote: You're not really counting it right imo Instead of doing what you did you should see what each player has after the bunker rush. the zerg : 2 hatcherys, pool, X drones, gas?, X overlords, X zerglings, etc the terran: 1 CC, 1barracks, gas(if meching), X SCVs, Xmarines Then, you compare it to if the bunker rush had not happened and the terran went 10rax -> FE and you can see the effects of the bunker rush If you have good micro/get lucky/your opponent sucks you can hold off bunker rushes without suffering any casualties Bunker rushes are a part of the game, sometimes starcraft is like rock paper scissors it can't be helped. You should be enjoying the game instead of whining about minor imbalances. Are you illiterate? You constructed a post in what seems to be English, but your reading comprehension skills are obviously severely limited. http://tutoring.sylvanlearning.com/ | ||
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jiabung
United States720 Posts
You also suggest there is no possibility of a counterattack by lings if the terran can make a ling proof wall. But thats only true if the terran doesn't proxy rax and builds the rax as part of his lingproof wall. Now if the rush distances are long, making the rax at the base might not even be viable and then a counterattack by lings still works if he proxy rax's instead. Also you have to see if the rines spawn outside the wall or inside the wall (very important actually). If there is only 1 rine behind the wall, an all-in ling attack will still own 5 scvs trying to repair if the space allows for enough lings. The only example you seem to be using is 12hatch vs. 8rax bunker rush which is obviously a BO advantage for terran, and there is no possible way to 8rax knowing a zerg is 12hatching first. also the jaedong vs canata game... jaedong 12hatched before scouting the 8rax unlike what most people seem to think. his drone arrived like a sec after the hatch was built if you look at the minimap. Anyway, as a C+ zerg, I always feel ahead if i defend well against a bunker rush, even if I can't counter. It's also rare that a ling proof wall can be made so that both the nat and main are covered so the terran is limited to one base if you are aggressive enough even if they planned to fe. Bunker rush really isn't that much of a commitment for terran, but i still wouldn't call if risk-free especially since i don't think there is a map with short rush distances that lets a terran perfectly wall off his nat and main. even then you can still pressure the buildings and pick off the scv making the 2nd depot. Are you illiterate? You constructed a post in what seems to be English, but your reading comprehension skills are obviously severely limited. http://tutoring.sylvanlearning.com/ edit: you are also an asshole | ||
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Jopz
United States262 Posts
But going back to the OP's points assuming a best case scenario where the zerg lost only one drone and 2-3 lings in breaking the rush, I feel that the game would be very much in favor of the zerg because he has this window where he can expect no pressure of any sort from the Terran and can make drones safely, transitioning his opening into two hatch lair or even 3 hatch, and with overlord scouting can see pretty much what the terran is up to, and react appropriately On the terran side you have no idea what the zerg is making, is it two hatch muta? Lurker/hydra push to break the wall? Unless the terran makes an academy and is able to scan the zerg tech he's gonna be playing blind without any way to capitalize if the zerg skimped on base defenses, and even if he does make a build with an academy in it, the zerg should be able to spot it or the lack of factory and use the optimal build to counter the terran tech. In the particular game you pointed out between Jaedong and Canata, I would say that was more the exception rather than the rule as long as the zerg scouts the bunker rush in time to quash it without losing more than a drone or two. The vulture getting into the main was just Canata's icing on the cake. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On July 25 2009 15:10 Raidy wrote: Are you illiterate? You constructed a post in what seems to be English, but your reading comprehension skills are obviously severely limited. http://tutoring.sylvanlearning.com/ Don't start the flame war; just clarify ur post for confused readers. Sometimes the info throws people off. Tobi, he's just saying that the zerg loses more minerals than the terran in the event of a bunk rush, regardless of it's success. You can assume he's comparing the losses to the norm. On topic... The loss in minerals is compensated by the fact zergs can pump drones like nothing. The trick is to scout, anticipate the terran's move, and to react accordingly. Zergs only need about 30-35 drones to reach their macro capacity for 3 hatches; coupled with the fact that zergs can make drones really fast, the mineral loss should be nothing if you react to his follow up correctly. The terran loses flexibility and becomes very predictable; it's all a matter of how long they can stall the zerg so that they will not have time to counter their tech. | ||
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checo
Mexico1364 Posts
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Rakanishu2
United States475 Posts
The OP doesn't want your strategies for fending off bunkers rushes. How many times does someone have to tell you guys before you read and understand? I hate people who flame in topic like this, but I'm seriously considering giving the guy who linked sylvanlearning.com a Nobel Prize, in this case it's very true. Topic at hand: I did catch the game which was mentioned earlier and I think the way the zerg dealt/excellent micro from the terran was the real issue. I think your calculations, while interesting, are not accurate to how each side of the rush are doing. At the pro level, I think I've seen too many zerg players get bunker rushed, turn it away, and then get map control and crush the terran. Now a fake bunker rush, as you proposed, would be much more interesting, and I think I've seen a few pro games where the terran player kind of feigns the rush, or doesn't dedicate much to it, just to get the zerg off mining. | ||
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Lurgee
Australia252 Posts
On July 25 2009 17:13 checo wrote: Just don't 12 hatch... its just like saying=> U,U but 14cc is almost always autolosse or big advantage for Zerg if they do 9pool/overpool....Thats why terran doesn't 14cc that much... You don't play a lot of zvt, do you? I think that bunker rushing is favorable at the moment due to the influx of 3/2 player maps. As progamers do not in fact bunker rush every game, or even a majority of the time, there are clearly some flaws in the build. If your bunker rush totally fails, you'll end up with less money at the critical point at which mutalisks come out from a 2hat muta build to kill you. As such, you really have to inflict damage, or you will probably die to the mutalisks when they come out. | ||
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Raidy
Japan87 Posts
Am I an asshole? Yes. Was I being an asshole? No, not until I was provoked. (2) By saying that 8 rax is a BO counter to 12 hatch, you're agreeing that yes, in practically every ZvT game, the Terran should 8 rax. I don't know if you've noticed, but 12 hatch is pretty much the only thing done on almost every map nowadays, especially at the amateur level. 9 overpool puts you behind due to Terran ramp blocking (even with SCV/rines/floated barracks) and the fact that zerglings alone are soon made useless by one of several Terran units; it's a pretty horrible idea to go 9 overpool considering a Terran can defend against it while still going a FE build. (3) By the time a Zerg player scouts a Terran, the Terran can easily have marines being made from his 8 rax, and the Zerg can easily be put in an awkward position of an expansion hatchery being put up. (4) I really appreciate the people who understood the purpose of this thread and gave valuable insight. The big idea seems to be with map control and how Zerg players can make up for lost mining time by expanding and taking an early economic advantage. Calculations are important in Starcraft, but there are far too many variables to base strategies on them alone. (5) I still find that bunker rushing at the amateur level, or at least feigning a bunker rush, is an incredibly deadly strategy. Zerg players panic when they see the SCV start building a bunker. It's a "holy shit" moment. Some overreact. Some don't react well at all. I, from the perspective of a Zerg player, recommend that Terran players use this knowledge to their advantage. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On July 25 2009 19:14 Raidy wrote: (1) For those of you who didn't notice when I linked the guy to the Sylvan Learning Center website, he claimed I was whining about bunker rushes. I specifically stated the purpose of this thread in my first post, and actually requested that nobody use words like "overpowered." Am I an asshole? Yes. Was I being an asshole? No, not until I was provoked. (2) By saying that 8 rax is a BO counter to 12 hatch, you're agreeing that yes, in practically every ZvT game, the Terran should 8 rax. I don't know if you've noticed, but 12 hatch is pretty much the only thing done on almost every map nowadays, especially at the amateur level. 9 overpool puts you behind due to Terran ramp blocking (even with SCV/rines/floated barracks) and the fact that zerglings alone are soon made useless by one of several Terran units; it's a pretty horrible idea to go 9 overpool considering a Terran can defend against it while still going a FE build. (3) By the time a Zerg player scouts a Terran, the Terran can easily have marines being made from his 8 rax, and the Zerg can easily be put in an awkward position of an expansion hatchery being put up. (4) I really appreciate the people who understood the purpose of this thread and gave valuable insight. The big idea seems to be with map control and how Zerg players can make up for lost mining time by expanding and taking an early economic advantage. Calculations are important in Starcraft, but there are far too many variables to base strategies on them alone. (5) I still find that bunker rushing at the amateur level, or at least feigning a bunker rush, is an incredibly deadly strategy. Zerg players panic when they see the SCV start building a bunker. It's a "holy shit" moment. Some overreact. Some don't react well at all. I, from the perspective of a Zerg player, recommend that Terran players use this knowledge to their advantage. tl;dr, stop trying so hard to prove that you're right and make a concise argument instead. 8 rax isn't a BO counter to 12 hatch, it's just the one that puts the most pressure on early. 12 hatch has no BO counter in ZvT. That's like trying to find a counter to 2 rax. You can't. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27174 Posts
On July 25 2009 18:29 Rakanishu2 wrote: Some of the responses in this topic have me baffled. The OP doesn't want your strategies for fending off bunkers rushes. How many times does someone have to tell you guys before you read and understand? I hate people who flame in topic like this, but I'm seriously considering giving the guy who linked sylvanlearning.com a Nobel Prize, in this case it's very true. Then he should label this as a guide, rather than a question. There is no call for being an asshole in the thread, especially if you are the one that created it. I like this topic, it is interesting, but keep it mannered. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/14295_Flash_vs_Jaedong Jaedong might have lost more money overall but he was able to start his tech asap and his mutas came relatively faster than normal. Flash did do an offbeat build which was a large part of the loss as it requires more precise timings but the same problem still applies. If he bunker rushes, his tech/defense is slower. However, the bunker rush doesn't have to slow your tech at all. So basically you need to not delay your spire a second. If you stop the bunker rush cold you can regain any mineral loss by making less lings and getting mutas out relatively faster. btw 2 rax has a counter: 3 hatch muta. That's why it's dead. | ||
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Rakanishu2
United States475 Posts
On July 25 2009 19:36 Manifesto7 wrote: Then he should label this as a guide, rather than a question. There is no call for being an asshole in the thread, especially if you are the one that created it. I like this topic, it is interesting, but keep it mannered. I don't understand, he's still asking a question, I'm confused as to why his question would be put into a guide category. His question is "Why don't terran just bunker rush/fake bunker rush every game?" His conjecture is that it always ends up with the terran being better off economically even in an ideal counter. Which I disagree with, but that's not what's important, whats important is that its still a question, and a decent one at that. What do you lose by fake bunker rushing? possibly 1 SCV mine time+bunker cancellation cost. The zerg either has to scout that its a fake, or play it safe and consider it a bunker rush and attempt to stop it. I'm no expert, I'd love it if someone could shed some more light on the topic. | ||
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Manifesto7
Osaka27174 Posts
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Batibot
Philippines348 Posts
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ForTheSwarm
United States556 Posts
SCV's average mining rate = 68 mins/min Drone's average mining rate = 72 mins/min I'm just curious, because I don't see why there is any reason an SCV should mine slower than a drone. As far as I know all peons have exactly the same specs (Except SCV HP). | ||
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Batibot
Philippines348 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On July 26 2009 11:02 For_The_Swarm wrote: I would like to know exactly how you found this: SCV's average mining rate = 68 mins/min Drone's average mining rate = 72 mins/min I'm just curious, because I don't see why there is any reason an SCV should mine slower than a drone. As far as I know all peons have exactly the same specs (Except SCV HP). Probes accelerate fastest although they all have the same top speed. | ||
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aeroH
United States1034 Posts
On July 26 2009 11:02 For_The_Swarm wrote: I would like to know exactly how you found this: SCV's average mining rate = 68 mins/min Drone's average mining rate = 72 mins/min I'm just curious, because I don't see why there is any reason an SCV should mine slower than a drone. As far as I know all peons have exactly the same specs (Except SCV HP). IIRC, there was a thread on it, but i can't seem to find it. Probes mine the fastest, then drones and then SCVs edit: found one http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93124 but i remember there was another one that tested it and went into detail... which apparently disappeared into theabyss | ||
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Batibot
Philippines348 Posts
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