EPT8 rax is hardly what you call an econ loss. Have you seen what a failed 4 pool does to Z's economy? A failed bunker rush 8 rax, you still have a ton of SCVs and you can just transition it up to Mech easily. The OP was hesititant to use the word overpowered but I will gladly use the word overpowered for T in TvZ. Not just because of bunker rushes but because of how flexible T is in that matchup and the many variations in opening that forces Z to adapt, and how much Z gets punished for a failed strategy while it is not vice versa for T.
[Q] Another One of Those Bunker Rush Threads - Page 3
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
8 rax is hardly what you call an econ loss. Have you seen what a failed 4 pool does to Z's economy? A failed bunker rush 8 rax, you still have a ton of SCVs and you can just transition it up to Mech easily. The OP was hesititant to use the word overpowered but I will gladly use the word overpowered for T in TvZ. Not just because of bunker rushes but because of how flexible T is in that matchup and the many variations in opening that forces Z to adapt, and how much Z gets punished for a failed strategy while it is not vice versa for T. | ||
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Batibot
Philippines348 Posts
On July 26 2009 13:14 AzureEye wrote: Even a fake bunker rush will put T ahead of Z. Why? Standard Z response is pulling 6~8 drones against 2 scvs, 2 marines. Those 6 drones not mining (one mines 8 so 48 minerals) causes minerals to be lost while T only loses minerals from canceling the bunker (25 mineral) 8 rax is hardly what you call an econ loss. Have you seen what a failed 4 pool does to Z's economy? A failed bunker rush 8 rax, you still have a ton of SCVs and you can just transition it up to Mech easily. The OP was hesititant to use the word overpowered but I will gladly use the word overpowered for T in TvZ. Not just because of bunker rushes but because of how flexible T is in that matchup and the many variations in opening that forces Z to adapt, and how much Z gets punished for a failed strategy while it is not vice versa for T. Don't compare 4pool with 8 rax. It ain't the same. 8 rax is more of 9pool w/o gas. You could fake a bunker rush if Z hadn't scouted your base and assumed that you did 8 rax but in reality, you did 11 rax. | ||
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Dreadwave
Netherlands254 Posts
On July 26 2009 13:14 AzureEye wrote: Even a fake bunker rush will put T ahead of Z. Why? Standard Z response is pulling 6~8 drones against 2 scvs, 2 marines. Those 6 drones not mining (one mines 8 so 48 minerals) causes minerals to be lost while T only loses minerals from canceling the bunker (25 mineral) 8 rax is hardly what you call an econ loss. Have you seen what a failed 4 pool does to Z's economy? A failed bunker rush 8 rax, you still have a ton of SCVs and you can just transition it up to Mech easily. The OP was hesititant to use the word overpowered but I will gladly use the word overpowered for T in TvZ. Not just because of bunker rushes but because of how flexible T is in that matchup and the many variations in opening that forces Z to adapt, and how much Z gets punished for a failed strategy while it is not vice versa for T. Terran loses more than that simply through not doing the best economic opening against 12 hatch which is 15CC at nat 15depot with minimal marines produced. You only have to look at the 8rax into mech build order from Stylish' thread + Show Spoiler + 8 barrack 9 suply 11 gas 16 fact 16 fact 16 suply 22 suply 29 suply 30 armory 35 suply 35 Ebay | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On July 26 2009 13:39 Batibot323 wrote: Don't compare 4pool with 8 rax. It ain't the same. 8 rax is more of 9pool w/o gas. You could fake a bunker rush if Z hadn't scouted your base and assumed that you did 8 rax but in reality, you did 11 rax. Well there is no reason not to compare. 4 pool is early ling production and 8 rax is early marine production. But because of the larvae system, Zerg can't produce workers while making units like T can. However, one leaves the economy completely devastated while the other leaves the economy slightly worse | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On July 26 2009 13:42 Dreadwave wrote: Terran loses more than that simply through not doing the best economic opening against 12 hatch which is 15CC at nat 15depot with minimal marines produced. You only have to look at the 8rax into mech build order from Stylish' thread + Show Spoiler + 8 barrack 9 suply 11 gas 16 fact 16 fact 16 suply 22 suply 29 suply 30 armory 35 suply 35 Ebay Well this is assuming that T's failed rush didn't catch any drones (unlikely but possible) T is the only race that can afford to play greedy without fear of getting punished because they have a wall at nat that they can convientiently protect by a rigged ability called repair The "standard" 1 Fact CC fast expo actually puts you ahead of 12 hatch because T is running on 2 bases while Z is running on 2 bases. Just because you didn't play "standard" doesn't mean your econ is shitty, 8 rax still gives you decent econ to compete against 12 hatch | ||
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Dreadwave
Netherlands254 Posts
On July 26 2009 13:52 AzureEye wrote: Well there is no reason not to compare. 4 pool is early ling production and 8 rax is early marine production. But because of the larvae system, Zerg can't produce workers while making units like T can. However, one leaves the economy completely devastated while the other leaves the economy slightly worse They don't compare, 8rax is closer to 9pool, both buy you safety against early game aggression and you can be offensive if they cut too many corners but if they don't you are behind. Terran can also do 4pool, you need to do a lot of damage for it to be worth it, if it doesn't you die, see Strelok vs F91 on blue storm in Liquibition. If you don't want to deal with bunkerrushes you can always use overpool 11 expo, the hatchery timing is very close to that of 12 hatch(~5 seconds slower) but you will have a weaker economy and lings are ~15 seconds later than if you 9 pooled. If they don't go into your main first you can sometimes win the game outright because it looks so similar to 12 hatch unlike a 9 pool. It's still better to just learn how to deal with bunkers with 12 hatch, but if you just know your opponent is going to bunkerrush it can be hilariously effective. | ||
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Batibot
Philippines348 Posts
On July 26 2009 13:52 AzureEye wrote: Well there is no reason not to compare. 4 pool is early ling production and 8 rax is early marine production. But because of the larvae system, Zerg can't produce workers while making units like T can. However, one leaves the economy completely devastated while the other leaves the economy slightly worse Compare 8 rax with 9pool, okay? | ||
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Batibot
Philippines348 Posts
On July 26 2009 13:57 AzureEye wrote: Well this is assuming that T's failed rush didn't catch any drones (unlikely but possible) T is the only race that can afford to play greedy without fear of getting punished because they have a wall at nat that they can convientiently protect by a rigged ability called repair The "standard" 1 Fact CC fast expo actually puts you ahead of 12 hatch because T is running on 2 bases while Z is running on 2 bases. Just because you didn't play "standard" doesn't mean your econ is shitty, 8 rax still gives you decent econ to compete against 12 hatch You know why Z has to pull 6~8 drones because he's supposed to defend the rush for good. He's supposed not to lose drones when he pulls 6~8 drones vs 2 rines/1~2 scv. When your rush failed, you have less or equal scv's mining than his drones but you got less scv's compared to a standard. This rigged ability you called repair, takes off an scv/scvs from mining and costs resources. If you already played with a lower-econ, it'd hurt you more repairing than repairing with a higher econ build. | ||
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roronoe
Canada1527 Posts
Jaedong vs Canata Game 4. Canata bunker rushes again. Jaedong defends it. Seemed to me Canata came out with a much better economy. This thread makes me think 12 hatch isn't a safe build anymore. Also... I lost to a bunker rush today : ( | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6638 Posts
On July 30 2009 19:59 roronoe wrote: About a recent game+ Show Spoiler + Jaedong vs Canata Game 4. Canata bunker rushes again. Jaedong defends it. Seemed to me Canata came out with a much better economy. This thread makes me think 12 hatch isn't a safe build anymore. Also... I lost to a bunker rush today : ( It's all about how well you defend it, if you defend well then you have superior economy, if you lose a lot of drones or your hatch then you don't. | ||
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EEEE1234
Canada55 Posts
"Z has x minerals" instead of "Z lost mining time" "Terran has y minerals" instead of "T lost minerals by canceling the bunker" "Z has 11 drones" instead of "Z lost a drone" What leaves the play area does not matter; what matters is the material that remains. | ||
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gjg.instinct
144 Posts
Yes it blows to send out a drone to scout, but it's a double edged sword...if terran goes 11 rax (econ) and doesn't scout, a 4-pool or speedling rush can really be devastating also. | ||
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