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I've always wondered why it was the way it was. Usually Zergs will power nothing but drones (except for maybe a few lings and an overlord or two) for the early part of the game (usually like 24 total mining/gassing not counting morphed structures which is usually like 9+ until unit production). This is all fine and makes sense. But then once they decide to start making units they just stop drone production all together.
Now zerg is only making attack units and they won't make any more drones until: An advantage is gained, a new base is up, or a building is made (and usually people replace that lost drone).
Take 3 hatch muta for example, z will power drones, tech to muta, hatch the mutas and go harass. Usually zerg will start making lurker tech and some ground units as well. If the harass does significant damage he can afford to make another volley of drones for his new hatch/expo (which the muta containment provided). If the harass has not done enough damage (or any at all). Then you have the dilemma of another hatchery but not enough units to defend it, so you need more units and then the hatch sits there providing more larva that you either can't use, or can't turn into drones.
Now I remember someone posting some graphs on mineral gains and worker production a while back and noticed that the zerg one fluctuated but as stated here http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2009/2/28/uc-berkeley-starcraft-class-week-5.html as long as the units are made eventually it can nearly even out because of the spikes.
Is spiking better optimally than a constant gradual gain? Does that mean that speaking on a purely macro standpoint that zerg is the best race at adapting/responding to gaining resources?
One of the big factors I see for why the current meta game on drone production is the way it is, is because rally points. Drones and units share the same point which can make it difficult/annoying to macro compared to T/P. In sc2 this has been addressed, so maybe we will see a change in the way zerg macro/econ is done in the future.
I was thinking alternatively to throw out everything you know about drone production and just trying to build 1 drone every 20 game seconds (which is how long a drone takes to build and a larva takes to spawn) instead. Use the rest of the larva for units of course.
Especially in late game when there are 6+ hatches, often see players just making a huge volley of like 9~ drones at once when there is a lull in the action.
Would it have been better if the zerg would have been making a drone every 20 seconds for each base (or a few bases) instead of all units for X amount of time then all drones for Y amount of time back and forth? (this is obviously much harder to do and I'm wondering if it's more efficient essentially).
Also for early/mid game could it be be applicable there? The fact that drones are killed in order to make buildings is also another big contributing factor as to why current drone production meta game is the way it is.
What is the optimal spiking guideline for drone production currently? If the P/T are making workers constantly, then after a minute on 2 bases that is 6 workers lost for zerg. So could a semi-spiking style of just making a volley of 3 drones every minute per base work slightly better than how it is now?
To summarize, I'm wondering if the way we play a zerg economy is wrong?
And all this time we just assumed it was correct (even pros) and adapted play styles that work for it. If we changed to a more constant economy, instead of a spiking economy for zerg, would that change strategies & build orders for the better/worse? Could completely new styles/strats of zerg emerge with a more streamlined zerg economy?
PS- (Bit of sc2 theorycrafting here), but would it be good or bad if in sc2 there was 1 red larva every 20 seconds only for drone morph per hatch near a resource, in order to streamline the zerg economy like protoss/terrans' ?
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So you're basically saying that after they start making units they should always be making drones slowly?
That wouldn't work because you need to get the amount of drones that will give you the amount of units that you need to block whatever timing push the T or P is doing. Think of it as having the correct number of drones. So Lurkerling requires 26 (I think...) drones on minerals and 3 gas to make off 5 hatches. So why would you keep making drones? You've got the production you need, you need to expand again before those drones you're constantly building would be cost effective, and if you expand again you can't block their timing.
Dunno man, I think I'm just confused.
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First problem would be the limitation of larvae spawning out of hatcheries. It can break your rhythm if you decided to up your APM and there's no larvae from the hatch. Secondly, the larvae selection hotkey, you have less hassle having to deselect to have a certain amount of larvaes selected. Lastly, the micromanagement of huge armies earlier than other races in the game. This is too taxing on your macromanagement system that it's better obviously to do similar tasks together.
But if someone comes up with a constant style of economy, I'm all for it if it works. But I think past players have already tried or attempt at these constant styles.
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A constant economy doesn't make any sense at all for Zerg and doesn't take advantage of how Zerg's unit production works.
Let's look at a standard ZvP. Zerg gets 40th drones then starts spamming Hydras, and then when the Protoss attacks, Zerg has just enough Hydralisks to fight him off. If Zerg did a gradual build up, then his 40th drone would be mining for much less time than if he did a spiking style. This is obviously less optimal.
If I understand what you're saying right, it's not a very complex concept.
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I've read it explained like this:
The reason Terran and Protoss continue building workers is not to mine the base they have optimally, but to quickly maynard and gain the benefit from other bases they take.
Zerg players should just build as many drones as they need, and then use the hatcheries to build more drones when they take expansions.
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I brought this up a bit ago in this thread-
On December 10 2008 06:54 Misrah wrote:My fellow swarm, i come to you today because i am getting so tired of studying for a huge anatomy final, so to try and procrastinate and waste some time, I have decided to write this. Now i would like to tell you before you read any further into this theoryguidypalooza that this is 100% conjecture. I have yet to fully test any of the below stated out, however i think that each and every one of you can understand wher i am coming from. Basically with zerg in the shitter right now, and all of our great's in deep deep slumps, zerg needs to try and do something to bring us back. A REVOLUTION! So i began thinking about this while listening to my rpofessor talk about the retro peritoneal properties of the renal cavities ext. I digress. *Please note, i am trying to break down this economic problem into a very very simple idea. So i am (for the time being) forgoing teching and all of that.* So of the 3 races in SC zerg is by far the odd child. Our economy is weird. To say the least. Our production buildings produce our attacking units, and our drones all at the same time. The worthless Protoss and Terran have it easy, one building makes their SCV, probes and what not. So when playing any other race (besides zerg) your economy will go in a straight line. Always going up. The rule of thumb (while playing P or T) is to constantly build probes/scv's and you will always see a steady increase in economy. To increase your army size, all one must do is build barrax or gateways at a comparable rate to economic growth, for a constant production of zealots and marines. Simple? Yes. Really, your army and economy will grow at a proportional rate. (if you don't spend excess money on upgrades and tech.) But back to the swarm. Once again we have hatcheries. NO CC's NO Nexus. Zerg has that unique ability to produce drones and lings at the same time. I have noticed that in every single zerg matuchup except zvz. IN Zvt and Zvp zerg will (when going for an economic game, ie not a two hatch or any type of tech game) will ALWAYS ALWAYS try and build as many drones as possible in the shortest amount of time. I have heard time and time again, the simple fact that if you stop producing mass drones in the early and early mid game, you will be economically behind. The hardest part about playing zerg is the simple fact, that a zerg player has to try and find balance. By balance i am talking about the inverse relationship zerg economy has, when you decide to produce zerglings insted of drones. For example. Why build 12 lings, when only 2 are neccesary early game? Yes you may be trying a runby- but when you get right down to it, you are hurting your economy. The larve that are now lings, could have become drones. So the traight of a good zerg player is to always have the BARE MINIMUM of attacking units early game. That way, they can drone whore and stay on par with protoss and terran economy. Balance is key. Two few drones, no econ. Two many drones, no zerglings, and no defense. Normally zerg players do the following in a normal (standard) Zvt and Zvp. 12 hatch 11 pool 13 hatch and depending on the match up either T or P you can get a 4th hatch start gass ext. after wards though, one thing is always clear. DRONE WHORE in a standard 3hatch muta game vs Standard T a zerg player expects to have 35+ drones beofre his muta are compleated. However in order to achive this, the zerg player builds little to no lings- and suckens up. The Z is powering off of 3 hatch and going nuts. BUT What if this idea could be changed? Here is really the bulk of my economic idea. If T and P players are always going to be a steadily increasing line (as far as economics and army size are concerned) Zerg is nothing but. Zerg can do anything (with enough hatcheries) Think about it. You can have 4 hatcheries with 3 larve at each. So that is 12 units you can create. INSTANTLY. no wait, just BAM, units. All at the same time, no waiting, no nothing. You can see the benefits of doing so very very quickly. For example, you can have all 4 of your hatcheries produce lings. And you have an INSTANT army. Or you can have all of them go drones. INSTANT economic benefit. You don't have to wait for your expos to kick in, you can have any expo saturated INSTANTLY. But of course at a price. I was think about that above, and suddenly my idea hit me. Why oh why does zerg try and mirror protoss and terran? Why does zerg mirror the ever increasing line? A line? Fuck that. Zerg jumps. I remember when i watch players play zerg. Lets say they are taking their 3rd expo (in Zvt) so- once the expo pops, the first thing that is done, is have a drone build an extractor. You need the gas. Then have some of your drones from your Natural and natural expo Maynard over to your third. This is done to (saturate) this expo. But, have you done anything? no- not really. You are not adding drones, while i do agree that you have made your drones more efficient, and yes your economy will grow faster- you are still going to be producing drones at that new expo, and only at that expo. So a linear progression. Insted of doing the old way, and the type of economic management i see so often from zergs, why not have all of your hatcheries POP a batch of drones? (Right now your thinking Misrah is fucking clueless) Doing that in a midgame Zvt will leave you with no army- and you will get run over. Well i am so glad that you thought of this dear reader- because you right. When it comes right down to it, i just don't think that zerg players are not playing to our flexible economy's strenagths. All i see is linear thinking. that is all. Now I am going to try and theory craft out my idea for zerg play and how i believe with such a flexible economy, zerg should think about their unique economy differently. So the matchup will be Zvp. P will play standard forge FE into a whatever, +1 rush- why not. So zerg- will also play standard, 12 hatch and then proceed to 11 pool and 13 hatch yada yada you get it. Normally the zerg player, off of his/her 3/4 hatcheries would be powering drones. To try and keep up economically with the protoss player. One the zerg player deems he has enough drones (and this depends on game sense, and experience. Noobs make more of an army for a safer yet in the long run more risker type of play, while the gosu is the compleate opposite) All the while Protoss is just going up their steady line. Slowly increasing economy and army size. They are not playing a difficult game, they are just building probes from 2 nexus and power zealots- from 5 or so gates. NO big deal. The zerg on the other hand, has to properly balance out his economy to try and make sure he is not far behind the protoss, and at the same time can survive the +1 timing attack- and not over compensating for said attack, because i have said above this would place him behind. So instead of looking at this from the old way, try and be more flexible. The zerg player, instead of trying to power drones, does the complete reverse to any other methodology, and works on increasing his PRODUCTION. Notice i didn't say economy. I'm not talking about drones, I'm not talking about zerglins. I'm talking about hatcheries. You see, noramally zerg players build hatcheris to facilitate a linear growth. Just like Terran and Protoss. But Zerg is NOT LIKE T OR P. So powering on production, zerg has a meger economy. and next to no attacking units. So what should zerg do? Well i think zerg needs an army- to try and fight off that timing push. So mass army. Start building an army earlier. basically start pulling a noob move. Build up, and keep building up. Is your economy shitty? Yes! But! Who cares? We have PRODUCTION on our side! So after building up an army, and not waiting till the last second, like all other zerg MU's zerg and protoss armies collide. And zerg comes out on top. Right now your thinking, sure you won the battle, but how about the war? Misrah, your economy is shit. Yes i agree, but once again- im not constraining myself to a linear economioc growth. Insted- I can just 'PoP' drones from my 4+ hatch and there- I now have 12+ drones ready to immidiatly begin mining more minirals. So lets recap our ZvP game. With added production- zerg was able to more comfortably fend off the +1 timing push. But now because of this, is economically behind. In this case, the zerg player- because of added production can "PoP" more drones and INSTANTLY see a benifit. I am not building them one at a time, from 1 or maybe two hatch- I am insted Throwing all of my hatch's to quickly prodcue a dozen or so drones. Afterwards, I can go back to mass army. And when need be, PoP mass drones. Now are my ideas radicle? Yes. Have they been tested? Yes and no. Now let me explain. Basically, it would be very very helpful (and i plan to do the following after finals) to try and find that perfect amount of hatcheries to drones. If you have made it this far into my theory guide thingy- then one quesion should still be on your mind. It should be this: Misrah your still fucking clueless, You need Economy to facilite Production. My answer? Yes and no. Yes in the fact that you are correct, you do need economy, but what i am trying to get across to you- is the simple fact that zerg players, are always seen producing units off of 3 hatch early game. They never have a larve idle. Yet we always seem to have excess money laying around. (Forgoing the cost of tecking) What can't we have the opposite to some degree? You see, having hatcheries is amazing because you can have a ton of shit building at the same time. Not all at once, but close. Off of your modest economy, couldyou produce 12 drones exactly at one time? NO probably not- but you can get close. I bet that you could have all of them morphing at the same time however. So thanks for reading. Basically with the above posted, i am just trying to find a way for zerg to jump back. Zerg is flexible. Zerg is not constrained by some silly CC or Nexus. Zerg's kick ass. I just think that, could zerg economics be looked at from a non linear point of view? Can't we be more FLEXIBLE? Zerg has the unique ability to produce producion facilites at an early point in the game. So why not? I await your scathing comments. 
Charlie it almost seems like we are kind of thinking at the same level? idk- anyway here is the thread link:
Take a look if you like. Chill and company ripped my idea apart:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=83732
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but now that i look at it- i was thinking more of a production oriented idea. Which is vastly different from what you are trying to say (i think)
Is this right?: Basically go P and T style and just build single drones like P and T while at the same time, going for army? I guess if you could spare the brain power, you could 'alternate' each an every single larve.
If that is what you are trying to say- then i have some bchart data that might be useful to you?
These replays and resource charts show my zerg on crank build vs an FE t or meching t. In my crank build i start pumping drones from one hatch, then hydras from another. So basically i am not drone whoring at all, in fact i am using 1 (sometimes 2) hatcheries for dra production, while one hatchery stays a drone production center. As you can see, from an economic point of view- it really isn't that bad. If you think about it 2 hatch can quickly surpass t or p worker numbers, while all of your left over hatch can be used for amy production. If the t/p you are playing is staying of 1 base, then you only need to relocate 1 hatch to stay even with them.
pics:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Yeah I think that it makes perfect sense how current drone production is done. However successfully sneaking drones is key to every matchup and once you sneak enough drones on minerals it gives you the basis to lay down tons of hatcheries for expansions in zvt and zvp.
Another thing is that zerg is mostly limited by its gas, at least in zvt so without expanding how are the extra minerals helping you?
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Im no zerg, but I think we can agree that you want the most eco possible, and the most units possible. So, it is a balancing act.
The way this is achieved is by making lots of drones first, then stop and make your units as late as possible. That way you have the strongest eco along with the enough units for the time being. Like you said, this makes sense.
Now I will consider your main quote:
"Especially in late game when there are 6+ hatches, often see players just making a huge volley of like 9~ drones at once when there is a lull in the action. Would it have been better if the zerg would have been making a drone every 20 seconds for each base (or a few bases) instead of all units for X amount of time then all drones for Y amount of time back and forth? (this is obviously much harder to do and I'm wondering if it's more efficient essentially)."
The answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think the problem you are having is that you don't realize that there is no such thing as 'more efficient essentially'. There are only trade offs. Choices necessarily have opportunity costs. So, if you make drones gradually rather than all at once later, then yes you will have stronger economy later, but you will also not have units as quickly short term.
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i play this way sometimes. like in ZvP; but if you think about it making nonstop drones at an early point is always better from an economic standpoint.. Like if you put up an expansion I think right before the expand goes up if you were pumping drones from all hats and had 10-12 to go straight to it, that would be best. But you don't always have the ability to gauge whether it will be safe or not so instead you dedicate all resources to units and let that hatchery populate itself.
The way zerg is played isnt wrong. Getting out nonstop drones early on and having to to use some minerals on a sunken is far more beneficial than trying to make your economy production similar to the other races.
Edit: Also there is never a reason to arbitrarily do something like this. All production with Zerg should have purpose, so you want to fulfill 1 of these criteria..
1: Making as many units as possible/macroing down your minerals to contain/destroy the opponents army
2: Building as much economy as possible(drones and overlords as required)
3: Building economy while remaining safe...
So instead of making 1 drone every 2 seconds you might make 2 every 20 seconds. This isn't uncommon anyway, for someone to have 3 hats and be pumping mostly drones and a few sets of lings to stop say the initial Zealot harass after a protoss FE.
hope that makes sense i just got off work and am tired as hell but really feel like this thread is needless theorizing when good players have known the strengths of zerg economy since BW came out really
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On April 08 2009 08:42 Piy wrote:
That wouldn't work because you need to get the amount of drones that will give you the amount of units that you need to block whatever timing push the T or P is doing. Think of it as having the correct number of drones. So Lurkerling requires 26 (I think...) drones on minerals and 3 gas to make off 5 hatches. So why would you keep making drones? You've got the production you need, you need to expand again before those drones you're constantly building would be cost effective, and if you expand again you can't block their timing.
This advice is correct. The number of drones made must be based on the particular strategy you are using and you have to take all the timing issues into consideration.
FYI Piy: 5 hatch lurker/ling on 3 gas takes 21 drones on minerals and 9 on gas for pure constant production of lurker/ling, this is the bare minimum saturation as you will not have any extra money at all, not even for overlords. But the less drones you get the faster you can pump units, so I imagine if you are going for an all-in constant lurker/ling attack to finish the game do or die, this number of drones will yield the fastest and strongest attack possible.
A more moderate saturation would be 23 - 9, then you can afford overlords and keep the growth going. However, you still have no money for any growth, such as tech or more buildings or even more drones, since all your economy can support is 5 hatch lurker/ling/overlord. In a desperate situation where you are under tremendous pressure to survive and you need the maximum number of lurker/ling to live, this may be your desired saturation.
In a normal zvt game, typically Z will get 23-9 and then pump units from 4 hatch, while letting the 3rd base hatch to add more drones gradually and build up to 30-9. The extra minerals will be able to make sunkens, various tech buildings, and additional hatcheries. From my experience, going over 30-9 before defiler comes out is counter productive, since you are willingly reducing your own army size and frankly you might die before the extra minerals can be of any help.
At OP, the idea of drone saturation is to find the fastest path to reach your desired production speed based on the particular strategy you are using. Like in the 5 hatch hydra build, Z wants to have 28 drones on minerals and 6 on gas before hydra production, the fastest way to get there is pure drones/hatches/buildings all the way up to 34 supply then make hydras, but in a real game P will not allow such undisturbed growth, so he will pressure with zealots and fast corsair, etc, and in response, Z's build order must incorporate proper defense, such as speedlings, sunken, and scourge. Z will try to minimize the defense so that he can have the fastest path to 28-6 drones to support 5 hatch hydra, and in turn have the fastest hydra production, which will then yield the maximum army size.
Every Z strategy is designed to reach a particular production speed of a particular unit mix, be it 5 hatch lurker/ling in zvt or 5 hatch hydra in zvp. The early game objective is to execute your build orders in a particular way so that you can reach the desired drone saturation in the shortest amount of time. That is why every Z tries to power drones early instead of taking on a linear growth pattern, simply because you want the fastest saturation to begin army production.
In my experience, as the game progresses into mid and late game, you can produce drones either way. I prefer making drones in batches if my strategy involves a rapid change in army mix, and thus require a completely different saturation point. On the other hand, if I already have the desired army mix and production speed, I prefer to make drones slowerly just a couple at a time here and there, and keep my army at its max size at all times.
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Once again people just think that zerg needs to be some economy whore house of a race. When i watch zvt and zvp it pisses me off. Zerg only goes for this macro shit and really T and P can get away with just making the bare minimum of units early game and sim city their way to mid game. I agree that zerg should try and play more like t and p. In tvp and pvt there are none of these sim city builds. It just isn't going to happen, because if you do try and do something like that you are going to get killed.
If zerg is going to begin units in the early game and early mid game, and not just the standard *build just enough to hold of this attack* t and p are going to have to get used to making more defenses in the early game, disrupting the sim city of their builds.
Really i just think that the hit t and p are going to take from their economy can be calculated into averaging with zergs hit in economy. but remember unlike t or p zerg can build many peons at one time, catching up very quickly in economy, and or surging an economy ahead if need be. We are not stuck with a single unit at a time thing like p and t.
I think that charlie is on to something here, and really i think that this should be explored more. Zerg have a far more adaptable economy game than any of the other races, simply because we can pop drones like no tomorrow, and are not constrained to a linear economy.
*Zerg doesn't produce 1/2 peons every 20 seconds. If we have the production we can produce 9-12 peons in 20 seconds*
this is something huge for zerg. I really think that zerg players should take a look at this and try and do something to capitalize on this advantage.
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re Misrah
well I don't think that was quite what charley was getting at. It is more along the lines of what you were getting at in your other thread ;d.
But i think it is explored...it is all about the balance, more units or more drones.
Zergs have the drone whore builds but they also have the unit builds such as 2hatch hydra bust vs p, and a whole range in between.
if you want to explorer buidls more oriented in low eco then switch eco into high gear suddenly go ahead. Will these sorts of builds consistently give you an advantage? I think not (or they would be done more, for one). Travel distance is a huge concern early game. You are giving up alot for the ability to attack quickly. So yes Z can catch up quickly, but this should not be take like "oh my we can catch up quick...its so great!". It would be just as true to say "need to catch up because my eco is shit atm!"
Where I think you are right is that in theory you can calculate the hit your economy takes relative to the hit your should opponent take. For example, strong FD vs protoss, Stylish says that it takes more minerals to be able to consistently stop it as P than it takes terran to do it. I am not sure if this is true, but if so, it certainly seems unfair no? And if you can find something 'unfair' why not 'abuse' it to win! Theoretically zerg should be able to figure out things such as this as well I suppose. But of course, you opponent should be trying to do the same. So it is a clash of play, and who wins often comes down to many factors.
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On April 08 2009 10:57 Misrah wrote:
Once again people just think that zerg needs to be some economy whore house of a race. When i watch zvt and zvp it pisses me off. Zerg only goes for this macro shit and really T and P can get away with just making the bare minimum of units early game and sim city their way to mid game. I agree that zerg should try and play more like t and p. In tvp and pvt there are none of these sim city builds. It just isn't going to happen, because if you do try and do something like that you are going to get killed.
If zerg is going to begin units in the early game and early mid game, and not just the standard *build just enough to hold of this attack* t and p are going to have to get used to making more defenses in the early game, disrupting the sim city of their builds.
Dude, the strategy of the game has been deeply explored through hundreds of thousands of hours of analysis. You think something this obvious is being overlooked by people whose careers are on the line? 1 minute of thought would have shown you the gaping flaws in your statement:
"Zerg only goes for this macro shit and really T and P can get away with just making the bare minimum of units early game and sim city their way to mid game."
Awesome. If T and P want to Sim City their way to mid game, thats fantastic. I can drone whore and expand faster and better than they can and out sim-city them any day. I don't need multiples of production buildings and larvae produce pure drones faster than command centers and nexuses.
You DONT want to "force T and P to build defenses". Do you know why? Because YOU, the Zerg, lose the most from the exchange. "Wow, I sacrificed loads of drones and minerals to make 20 zerglings and forced the Terran to make a bunker with a supply depot in front of it. SWEET." Spending larvae and minerals on units- which costs you drones and minerals- hurts you far more than the P who simply puts up 3 well placed photon cannons (costing him only minerals, not probes) and he's already pumping units (since he CAN pump units without hurting his probe count). T and P are not zerg. Forcing defenses from them doesn't cost them anything. The situation is, in fact, completely the opposite. T and P should force Z to make defenses because it costs Z a lot more.
On top of that, from about 3-7 minutes in, basically anything between a 9 pool rush and the arrival of mutalisks/lurkers, Zerg early aggression is completely non threatening unless its basically all-out. Building OMG FOUR HYDRALISKS isn't going to do jack shit in terms of forcing defenses from a Terran or Protoss who is going to be pumping units anyway. Substantial early game Zerg aggression, beyond 6 lings off a 9 pool speed, MUST do damage or it is counterproductive. Its not enough to "force a bunker".
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Because more drones wont give you more gas.
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Braavos36374 Posts
what exactly does "disrupting the sim city of their builds" mean?
i thought "sim city" was just a cute label for when a player is careful to place their buildings effectively
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the way we play zerg, economy wise, is not wrong. The reason that worker production is so different from the other 2 races is because zerg is the only race that when u build a building, u lose a worker,
that, along with the fact that workers and units are built from the same larva, make it so that you cannot keep building drones like the other two races, especially into the late game
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On April 08 2009 13:21 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2009 10:57 Misrah wrote:
Once again people just think that zerg needs to be some economy whore house of a race. When i watch zvt and zvp it pisses me off. Zerg only goes for this macro shit and really T and P can get away with just making the bare minimum of units early game and sim city their way to mid game. I agree that zerg should try and play more like t and p. In tvp and pvt there are none of these sim city builds. It just isn't going to happen, because if you do try and do something like that you are going to get killed.
If zerg is going to begin units in the early game and early mid game, and not just the standard *build just enough to hold of this attack* t and p are going to have to get used to making more defenses in the early game, disrupting the sim city of their builds.
Dude, the strategy of the game has been deeply explored through hundreds of thousands of hours of analysis. You think something this obvious is being overlooked by people whose careers are on the line? 1 minute of thought would have shown you the gaping flaws in your statement:
"Zerg only goes for this macro shit and really T and P can get away with just making the bare minimum of units early game and sim city their way to mid game."Awesome. If T and P want to Sim City their way to mid game, thats fantastic. I can drone whore and expand faster and better than they can and out sim-city them any day. I don't need multiples of production buildings and larvae produce pure drones faster than command centers and nexuses. You DONT want to "force T and P to build defenses". Do you know why? Because YOU, the Zerg, lose the most from the exchange. "Wow, I sacrificed loads of drones and minerals to make 20 zerglings and forced the Terran to make a bunker with a supply depot in front of it. SWEET." Spending larvae and minerals on units- which costs you drones and minerals- hurts you far more than the P who simply puts up 3 well placed photon cannons (costing him only minerals, not probes) and he's already pumping units (since he CAN pump units without hurting his probe count). T and P are not zerg. Forcing defenses from them doesn't cost them anything. The situation is, in fact, completely the opposite. T and P should force Z to make defenses because it costs Z a lot more. On top of that, from about 3-7 minutes in, basically anything between a 9 pool rush and the arrival of mutalisks/lurkers, Zerg early aggression is completely non threatening unless its basically all-out. Building OMG FOUR HYDRALISKS isn't going to do jack shit in terms of forcing defenses from a Terran or Protoss who is going to be pumping units anyway. Substantial early game Zerg aggression, beyond 6 lings off a 9 pool speed, MUST do damage or it is counterproductive. Its not enough to "force a bunker".
Interesting post. I agree.
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I don't think it's a complex answer.
Zerg players have one unit production building, so we can use that building to build whatever we want.
P/T don't.
Basically, everytime they need to build another factory/barracks/gateway/etc. we've already got the hatchery we need, we just need the tech building.
Now flip that concept around. Imagine if all their factories/rax could generate SCVs/probes.
Thats the Zerg econ.
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On April 08 2009 13:51 Hot_Bid wrote:
what exactly does "disrupting the sim city of their builds" mean?
i thought "sim city" was just a cute label for when a player is careful to place their buildings effectively
I thought sim city was when you just focus on making a base and not actually have any strategy or competitive play. I think Tetris base is more like what you're talking about.
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ummmmmmmmmmmm what sim city is a term for placing buildings effectively
my kor friend also calls it simcity
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FE for protoss is a good example of sim city. The less probes you need to block the runby the better the simcity. Its just maximizing the effectiveness of the buildings. Gateways are used as a block, and for zealots. Forges for upgrades build cannons behind them. guard the area where probes or ramp is susceptible to zerg runby.
Or building a semi wall for terran using barracks supplies and factories. So zealots can't get the marine.
Whats tetris base?
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when i was talking about sim city i was referring to all of the exact probe and mineral / gas timings that the the fantasy build, protoss FE and all of that go buy. I figured that with some early game pressure or some aggression that you could screw this up and slow them down, and make them waste resources defending them selves. However everyone seems to think that this idea is idiotic, and i guess that is the general consensus. No use arguing with 4+ SC players that are better than me. My bad- i guess when you explain it like that, zerg simply cannot do anything early game unless it is an all in type of play.
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On April 08 2009 09:10 Zozma wrote:
I've read it explained like this:
The reason Terran and Protoss continue building workers is not to mine the base they have optimally, but to quickly maynard and gain the benefit from other bases they take.
Zerg players should just build as many drones as they need, and then use the hatcheries to build more drones when they take expansions.
Exactly. Worker saturation? Not a problem if you look at it from this point of view. When you start running out of gas after building mutas and lurks (tech switching), you need to be drone whoring at the bases you already have, while waiting on new expansions to come online. For example, you're expanding to your third sometime around the time mutas or lurks are coming out (even earlier if you didnt have to sunken whore), and after you make your first harassment army (9 muta), you set the rally point of your 3 hatches to the 3rd base, and pump drones to it. This saturates your 3rd much faster than building up a drone line from your 3rd base's hatchery alone (Just like when your main pumps drones to your natural, early game).
Stop ling whoring from all your hats when your gas runs out. Drone whore instead. If you can't use those lings that you're building right away (assault on their nat maybe?), building those lings were a waste. They could have been drones instead.
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There are a few points.
* As a mineral field is close to saturated, the marginal value of adding workers decreases. When mineral fields are fully saturated, adding workers adds no value.
* New mineral fields are farthest from saturated. They need an influx of many workers as soon as possible.
* When not enough army is produced, loss usually occurs.
* As a Zerg player, it's hard to keep track of how many drones were made.
Point #1 makes it not THAT important to add drones continuously after a certain threshold. Point #2 makes it helpful to whore drones immediately after an expansion goes up so you can immediately fill it. Terrans and Protosses need continuous production because they can't batch whore and fill an expo.
I think pros DO make drones throughout the game, but we never see that kind of thing during the game (it's not exactly exciting).
It is a helpful hint for me though. I batch-produce drones and batch-produce armies and never mix them because I find it hard to keep track of how many drones I have. My thought process is basically
"Take a look at field. Do I have enough?" -> Pump army.
"I don't have enough?" -> Pump drone.
It would take more thinking for me to continuously make drones. I'd have to redefine what I think is "enough", probably by subdividing it into finer intervals.
"Take a look at field. Do I have more than enough?" -> Pump army.
"A little under enough?" -> One drone, rest army.
"Not enough?" -> Half drone, half army.
"Not at all enough." -> All drone, no army.
This is a good idea which I'll have to work on.
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Ok first off, you got the 3 hatch muta part wrong. You dont need to do any damage at all to expand or even make drones, because you expand and start making drones even before your mutas have reached the terran and making lings or w/e at that point is most of the times a mistake. Regardless of what the terran has at that point he cant hurt you if you keep your muta numbers.
The rally point stuff is dumb, noone makes less drones because its uncomfortable to pick them off fighting units and making drones in a volley allows you to switch to a better rally point very easily.
And the make a drone every 20 seconds? This does happen whenever the zerg gets a new expo, that expo will be making drones only, with the exceptions of a pair of scourge or a single defiler or even other units because the player got too excited and made fightning units with that hotkey but generally, it will be making only drones even when the rest of the hatcheries are not and even when the opponent is rather aggressive, actually, only when the opponent is aggressive will you have less hatcheries than normal producing drones.
And zerg stops making drones once he sees his bases happily saturated, and he might do a volley of 3,6,9, depending on the number of drones hes lacking more than how safe he is from the opponent.
So, i think you make this OP without really having a clear idea of what good zergs do in game.
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Are there like a thumb rule. I thought that maybe 12 minerals and 3 on gas per expo. that would meen for 3 hatch muta with 2 hatch in main 24-9 which is pretty much what you said and it is pretty easy to see how many you have too. Just select all on minerals and if all are selected and you have this like full bar you will know that you have enought. Dunno i really suck at this game but want to learn but sounds like it is pretty much close to what you said 
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I'm sure terran and protoss would have loved to be able to make army units out of their CCs and nexuses and scvs and probes out of their barrackses and gateways. Being able to switch back and forth between attacking units and drones is a huge advantage in terms of controlling timing, maximizing economy and making yourself hard to read.
You want units ready to fight exactly when they are needed. Either for when you need to defend against a strong attack or in order to make an attack that has some punch to it. Having the units ready before you need them gives you no clear advantage. As an example, you have 2 larva that come out of a hatchery in succession. You can either make 2 lings and a drone or you can make a drone then 2 lings. Making the drone first makes you able to mine with that drone 13 seconds extra. So it should be clear that getting that drone first is good if getting the lings immediately does not make up for the 13 seconds extra mining time.
Gradual increase in army is something that doesn't really help zerg when looking at how that would play out. Starting your muta harass with 3 mutas then gradually increasing numbers is not really a good option because they would hardly be more effective than a flock of no mutas are.
Your suggestion is more relevant when you ignore timing altogether and just make it your strategy to always make 1 unit for each unit he has, thus always having enough units to block his advances. In theory this is fine, but races will have different "natural" timings where some tech kicks in and the army is magically 10 times stronger. And if you blindly are just matching up your army to his, your army will be overpowered for its purpose at some times and underpowered at others.
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Interesting thread so far. Don't know how i missed it.
Before answering to the OP i'd like to point out a rule of thumb : always have at least 1,5 peons per mineral patch. You can build more up to 3 peons per mineral (i think ? Not sure cauz it's been a long time i've not made like 30 drones in only 1 base :p) but you really need to have a plan before making additionnal drones.
To op : I think you have already answered your own question. Most of the time we have 3 hatches pumping drones to a point where we need to make units to defend. And then we have another base which is constantly pumping drones aswell. The thing is, when we get an advantage in a point, you can easily pump drones from all hatches and transfer them to ur expand (and why not, making another expand. You can easily afford it).
However it's really interesting to know what are the pro and cons from making drones as the time go on. But i think we're just too used to build full attack units untill we have enough drones to pump from all hatcheries. If you need to tech, you can always makes like 3 or 5 drones to build for example a queen nest and let the others drones pumping more minerals.
Dunno really, i think it's just our own style.
At least we can be sure of 1 thing : The misrah's post is another way to change our zerg's style and it looks fun ! :p Gonna test it asap ~
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I think Z is all about timings.
You power drones and go economy for as long as you can. Then, at the last possible moment, you start going pure army to defend/attack.
It's inefficient to just be building one or two drones as you slowly build your army... Terrans and Protoss don't have a choice, because of the way their races work, but you do.
Here.
What's more valuable? Building 20 drones while the opponent can't attack you, and you can't attack your opponent, then building pure army when you know you'll need to prepare for attack/defence.
Or
Building probably 16 drones and army simultaneously over the same amount of time.
Zerg macro is simple. Power and expand when you think the opponent's next attack won't kill you. Build army otherwise. There is not point in building army when you cannot attack. It's inefficient to prepare for an attack before you have to. Therefore, rarely army and macro at the same time, unless you've made a mistake.
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You can make army and drones at the same time. For example, your army engaged the opponent's army and won the battle. You have 2 choices: to make more units and add additiional pressure or to add drones because you just won your recent battle.
It is important to pump drones at the beginning because any other unit won't do anything else other than force your opponent to add defense. In ZvZ however, it is a different story...
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the zerg after go unit production he make droness all time hwit the new hatrchery at the new expansion after the drone cont is don take another exp and this hatcheri will be unit poroduction hatchery and whyt the new only done and so on ...
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i dont see why zerg would produce units to give up economic advantage when the units produce isn't enough to do any damage, nor is it necessary to use as defense.
say its 5 min into game
instead of 10 drone,
you have 5 drone, 10 lings.
but 1 minute later, the person who power drones will be much richer. true not having lings allows them to be attacked, but thats a matter of timing. so if you know your opponent can't kill you in 5 minutes, why make those lings?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1756/zergmacro1.jpg)
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