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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On January 24 2009 15:30 eMbrace wrote:
Hey I'm still a noob on iccup and i'm still trying to figure out when to get the 3rd hatch. i watch korean pro games and i see Zs getting 3 hatch and then bringing 9 eggs full of mutas up and just demolishing unprepared terrans (even protoss), but i can barely get 6 mutas with 2 hatch and be effective with them.
and if the muta harass does indeed prove to be ineffective, you are supposed to transition to lurkers correct? (versus T) , and save your mutas for defense?
iono, having 3 hatches early and being able to keep up with appropriate defense timings sounds unreasonable. if you have a good replay i could use as an example that'd be great. i lose games 90% of the time, but i still really enjoy the game and getting better at it, i wanna be sharp for SC2.
great post by the way
You only get 6 mutas if you 2 hatch. If you 3 hatch, you'll get 9 mutas. You need to make drones nonstop.
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On January 24 2009 15:35 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2009 15:30 eMbrace wrote:
Hey I'm still a noob on iccup and i'm still trying to figure out when to get the 3rd hatch. i watch korean pro games and i see Zs getting 3 hatch and then bringing 9 eggs full of mutas up and just demolishing unprepared terrans (even protoss), but i can barely get 6 mutas with 2 hatch and be effective with them.
and if the muta harass does indeed prove to be ineffective, you are supposed to transition to lurkers correct? (versus T) , and save your mutas for defense?
iono, having 3 hatches early and being able to keep up with appropriate defense timings sounds unreasonable. if you have a good replay i could use as an example that'd be great. i lose games 90% of the time, but i still really enjoy the game and getting better at it, i wanna be sharp for SC2.
great post by the way You only get 6 mutas if you 2 hatch. If you 3 hatch, you'll get 9 mutas. You need to make drones nonstop.
well obviously 2 hatch = 6 eggs, but i barely manage an economy to support 6 eggs, so to ask for another hatch and 3 more mutas by the time spire is up sounds insane. it's a risk build to me, because there is no way you can have a base defense for all 3 hatches to fend off a T that figures he can just kill you with whatever MnMs he has before you even get your spire up.
as im writing this i know im wrong, but perhaps ill focus more on power droning from now on
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wait so build drone throughout whole game? or just early to mid
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Read the recommended threads. They'll teach you what you want to know. There's a guide on 3 hatch mutas and the timings of when to build what. You usually get hydra den right after the first 9 mutalisks and get lurkers asap.
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On January 24 2009 15:43 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2009 15:35 T.O.P. wrote:On January 24 2009 15:30 eMbrace wrote:
Hey I'm still a noob on iccup and i'm still trying to figure out when to get the 3rd hatch. i watch korean pro games and i see Zs getting 3 hatch and then bringing 9 eggs full of mutas up and just demolishing unprepared terrans (even protoss), but i can barely get 6 mutas with 2 hatch and be effective with them.
and if the muta harass does indeed prove to be ineffective, you are supposed to transition to lurkers correct? (versus T) , and save your mutas for defense?
iono, having 3 hatches early and being able to keep up with appropriate defense timings sounds unreasonable. if you have a good replay i could use as an example that'd be great. i lose games 90% of the time, but i still really enjoy the game and getting better at it, i wanna be sharp for SC2.
great post by the way You only get 6 mutas if you 2 hatch. If you 3 hatch, you'll get 9 mutas. You need to make drones nonstop. well obviously 2 hatch = 6 eggs, but i barely manage an economy to support 6 eggs, so to ask for another hatch and 3 more mutas by the time spire is up sounds insane. it's a risk build to me, because there is no way you can have a base defense for all 3 hatches to fend off a T that figures he can just kill you with whatever MnMs he has before you even get your spire up. as im writing this i know im wrong, but perhaps ill focus more on power droning from now on
3 hatch muta obviously comes later than a 2 hatch muta. The name comes from gas timing; in 2 hatchery muta you get it immediately after the second hatch, in 3 hatch muta immediately after the third one (Although, since it's the current trend to get the 3rd hatch on 13 instead of the old 16, the extractor still only goes down at 15-16 supply). And 3 hatch drone pump > 2 hatch drone pump. The second gas is also earlier in 3 hatch mutas.
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Thanks! I've lost a lot ZvP, even though i killed his nexus or forced 10 cannons in the early game.
This sure explains a lot why
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On January 24 2009 15:30 eMbrace wrote:
Hey I'm still a noob on iccup and i'm still trying to figure out when to get the 3rd hatch. i watch korean pro games and i see Zs getting 3 hatch and then bringing 9 eggs full of mutas up and just demolishing unprepared terrans (even protoss), but i can barely get 6 mutas with 2 hatch and be effective with them.
and if the muta harass does indeed prove to be ineffective, you are supposed to transition to lurkers correct? (versus T) , and save your mutas for defense?
iono, having 3 hatches early and being able to keep up with appropriate defense timings sounds unreasonable. if you have a good replay i could use as an example that'd be great. i lose games 90% of the time, but i still really enjoy the game and getting better at it, i wanna be sharp for SC2.
great post by the way
I follow the "standard" of 12 hatch at nat, 11 pool, 13 hatch when I go muta, and that works out well. You need to keep an eye on the terran to see how many marines he has, and when he looks to be on the move out. It's a bit of trial and error, but you can get the timing down so you add 2-4 sunks and a few lings when needed.
When my spire is up, I usually build 11 mutas (9, wait for larva, add two more), then add the hydra den and evo while they are hatching. You will start lurker aspect and carapace around the time you first engage the terran with your mutas. Have hatcheries hotkeyed, and focus on keeping your mutas alive while building hydras and lings. This is a good time to take an expansion as well.
I find that if I handle my mutas well, they will still be in his base when my lurkers hatch. If I handle them less well, I will usually have to retreat at the time when I start to morph them, which is less desirable, but can be handled.
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Very interesting, but I don't even know how to get on Iccup (or play zerg so I'll never use it), some sort of Iccup launcher?
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On January 24 2009 15:30 eMbrace wrote:
Hey I'm still a noob on iccup and i'm still trying to figure out when to get the 3rd hatch. i watch korean pro games and i see Zs getting 3 hatch and then bringing 9 eggs full of mutas up and just demolishing unprepared terrans (even protoss), but i can barely get 6 mutas with 2 hatch and be effective with them.
and if the muta harass does indeed prove to be ineffective, you are supposed to transition to lurkers correct? (versus T) , and save your mutas for defense?
iono, having 3 hatches early and being able to keep up with appropriate defense timings sounds unreasonable. if you have a good replay i could use as an example that'd be great. i lose games 90% of the time, but i still really enjoy the game and getting better at it, i wanna be sharp for SC2.
great post by the way
I think you're doing something insanely wrong with your build orders.
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I agree wholeheartedly with this; knowing when to pop a few extra drones and large scale battle management is the bread and butter of zerg play.
I would like to share an idea about economy: When in doubt, make more drones! The underlying principle is to make sure the feedback you receive is as clear as possible. If you are a pair of drones behind in economy that little difference will slowly eat you out of the game, but when you finally lose it will be hard to tell what exactly your mistake was. Often the player will make other mistakes too, and these mistakes will steal the spotlight.
On the other hand, if you make too many drones the punishment will come quickly, else your extra drones will turn into an advantage. In this situation it will be much easier to tell whether you made too many drones or if you were spot on. Even when you think you've the timing and number down you might try for an extra one and explore the consequences. In the end this should result in quicker learning, even though you might actually play worse in the individual game.
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On January 25 2009 03:52 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly with this; knowing when to pop a few extra drones and large scale battle management is the bread and butter of zerg play.
I would like to share an idea about economy: When in doubt, make more drones! The underlying principle is to make sure the feedback you receive is as clear as possible. If you are a pair of drones behind in economy that little difference will slowly eat you out of the game, but when you finally lose it will be hard to tell what exactly your mistake was. Often the player will make other mistakes too, and these mistakes will steal the spotlight.
On the other hand, if you make too many drones the punishment will come quickly, else your extra drones will turn into an advantage. In this situation it will be much easier to tell whether you made too many drones or if you were spot on. Even when you think you've the timing and number down you might try for an extra one and explore the consequences. In the end this should result in quicker learning, even though you might actually play worse in the individual game.
Spoken like a true Zerg lol. Yeah, I agree, try to get some more drones and see if you get punished for it, that's good play in general. And it puts pressure on your opponent to get his attack timing perfect or you will have an advantage. It is more applicable later in the game though, since early mid game is usually pretty mapped out already.
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great guide, thanks for sharing Lols
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On January 24 2009 07:37 Underwhelmed wrote:Show nested quote +After figuring out all those defense timings, and knowing how many units you need to defend, you can prepare for them, and devote all other resources to make drones. Now, instead of wondering in the dark if you made too many or too few drones, you know exactly what you are doing! So lets say that P pushes out, and I've built just the right amount to defend. Seeing this, P decides he's not going to suicide his army and instead just pulls back and continues to pump out units - what now? What do you do when you don't know when and if P is going to try and push out?
Protoss is built around timing attacks. A good example made was his 1archon/11zlot +1 attack + legspeed. If he decides not to attack with this army, he is slowly losing the advantage of his tech. That timing attack is built on attacking you before your army macro and Lair technology really kicks in. If he fails to execute an attack during this timing window, he's going to slowly fall behind.
His guide (which is really good) mostly focused on macro issues based on army size. The thing you have to realize is that technology plays an important role in that as well. You can power anytime your army is strong enough to defend and withstand his attack. You can also power when you use your tech to gain a decisive advantage in army composition.
Going back to the previous example, lets say he gets his 1 archon / 11zlots, pushes out into the middle but decides to retreat back into his natural. If you went 3 hatch lair --> 5 hatch hydra/lurk. Once your lurker tech kicks in, the advantage swings towards your direction. Chances are he does not have obs and zlots are very ineffective at dealing with many lurkers. Thus you can expo, make an extra round of drone production, increase economy and further your advantage. By utilizing your tech and expoing, you force him to attack you, hopefully on terms less than favorable for him.
Long story short, if toss does not push out, scout him, use your tech to create a favorable army composition to engage him when he does push out and use that advantage to power more.
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I think what wins me like 90% of my ZvT is going 12 hat 11 pool 14 hat instead of 12 hat 11 pool 13 hat. You make an extra drone (a total of four) after you pool, then use that to make your third hatch. Spawn four lings and set one to chase the scv and 3 to bases. Suicide one on the ramp to check his build and rine count, put one in his natural to gauge his expo timing, and keep one in front of his choke to check for him moving out. After the scv is dead, set the ling on expo patrol or suicide it at the ramp to keep tabs on his rine count.
3 hat in ZvT is completely different from 3 hat in ZvP.
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Great guide, just finished reading this
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Could you provide some reps to ilustrate?
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On January 31 2009 21:12 skindzer wrote:
Could you provide some reps to ilustrate?
Actually, any good zerg will do this. It's just that it's hard to notice what's going on behind the scenes at the hatcheries and not in the battlefield.
Look up any good Zerg player's replay and pay attention to when he masses drones.
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ooo awesome guide
very good job
quality writeup
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Thank you for this superb guide.
I see much clearer now what (partially) my intuition led me towards.
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On January 28 2009 17:05 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I think what wins me like 90% of my ZvT is going 12 hat 11 pool 14 hat instead of 12 hat 11 pool 13 hat. You make an extra drone (a total of four) after you pool, then use that to make your third hatch. Spawn four lings and set one to chase the scv and 3 to bases. Suicide one on the ramp to check his build and rine count, put one in his natural to gauge his expo timing, and keep one in front of his choke to check for him moving out. After the scv is dead, set the ling on expo patrol or suicide it at the ramp to keep tabs on his rine count.
3 hat in ZvT is completely different from 3 hat in ZvP.
thats why you win in zvt? because you make an extra drone before your 3rd hatch?
REALLY?
anyway sick guide
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EPT
