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Gnojfatelob
Belgium216 Posts
8 - Pylon 10 - Gateway 11 - Assimilator 13 - Core + Gateway 14 - Pylon 15 - Dragoon + Cut probes 17 - 2* Dragoon 19 - Range ... continue pumping and pressure But in the interview video thing about "nony goes to courage" they repeatingly were talking about a 10/15 gate build order on medusa and it seemed nony would win easily with it. So i assume the build i am using is not optimal. Can someone explain the 10/15 gate? | ||
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Repertoire
Canada92 Posts
10 - gateway 11/12 - assimilator 13/14 - core 15 - gateway, cut Probes, Dragoon 17 - pylon, Dragoon Range Two Dragoons at the same time. Works out so both dragoons build simultaneously. Probably not the exact Nony build but here's a variation of it. Edit: Looking at your build actually, the 13 gateway looks a bit out of placed. How does an earlier second gateway work out for you? | ||
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Gnojfatelob
Belgium216 Posts
Edit, i think mine gives you the earlier goons, and the 10/15 gives you the earlier range and form then onwards prolly the same builds i suppose. | ||
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ZpuX
Sweden1230 Posts
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Repertoire
Canada92 Posts
The two dragoons following appear relatively the same. I am not sure which build is better, maybe someone more well informed can comment on it. | ||
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TT1
Canada9993 Posts
10 gate 12 assi 13 core 15 gate 15 pylon (some pylon after goon good but this way is much faster especially on 3 base maps where your only goal with your scout is to find the t's base) 15 range 15 goon etc. (or u can go 15 probe and wait for pylon which is like a few seconds, i usually use the 16 probe to scout then goon) but 12 nex is much better then 10/15 on medusa | ||
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Repertoire
Canada92 Posts
On December 29 2008 02:13 iamtt1 wrote: 8 pylon 10 gate 12 assi 13 core 15 gate 15 pylon (some pylon after goon good but this way is much faster especially on 3 base maps where your only goal with your scout is to find the t's base) 15 range 15 goon etc. (or u can go 15 probe and wait for pylon which is like a few seconds, i usually use the 16 probe to scout then goon) but 12 nex is much better then 10/15 on medusa Damn, you really cut your probes to get stuff done. What is that, 500 minerals spent on 15 psi alone?  | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On December 29 2008 02:29 Snacks wrote: Damn, you really cut your probes to get stuff done. What is that, 500 minerals spent on 15 psi alone? 525 | ||
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TT1
Canada9993 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
On December 29 2008 02:13 iamtt1 wrote: 8 pylon 10 gate 12 assi 13 core 15 gate 15 pylon (some pylon after goon good but this way is much faster especially on 3 base maps where your only goal with your scout is to find the t's base) 15 range 15 goon etc. (or u can go 15 probe and wait for pylon which is like a few seconds, i usually use the 16 probe to scout then goon) but 12 nex is much better then 10/15 on medusa Don't give absolute advice like the last line of your post especially since it isn't true at all that 12 nex is absolutely better than 10/15 gate. Going 10/15 allows for early pressure and can lead to an easy win even against pro-gamers (see NonY's game 2 victory vs the guy who won courage and is now a pro-gamer.) 12 nex can be a powerful build since it allows for a strong economic lead but this is assuming you don't die to some sort of 2 fac attack or an early marine/scv rush which if executed properly by the terran can be difficult to defend even with proper micro. | ||
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Gnojfatelob
Belgium216 Posts
Anyways, seems 10/15 will be overal better/safer while you can still pressure enough so i'm glad i learned a new bo today. if you rly wanna know the timing (yeah, i got bored and wrote it down): 10/13: 3:12 1st goon - 3:20 2nd goon - 3:43 3rd goon - 3:57 4th goon - 4:15 5th goon -> At 5:00 you got 8 goons, range, 2 goons building but only 17 probes. 10/15: 3:15 1st goon - 3:58 - 2nd+3rd goon - 4:35 - 4th+5th goon and range -> At 5:00 you got 6 goons, range, 2 goons building and 21 probes (4 more) | ||
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TT1
Canada9993 Posts
and saying "12 nex can be a powerful build since it allows for a strong economic lead but this is assuming you don't die to some sort of 2 fac attack or an early marine/scv rush which if executed properly by the terran can be difficult to defend even with proper micro.", is like me saying 10/15 can be a powerful build too because you can hurt t early game but this is assuming he doesnt block it perfectly while exping insanely early on his min only so he then gains a huge economic advantage over the toss, or he only bunks his front and repairs it while waiting on his tank + exps | ||
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Gnojfatelob
Belgium216 Posts
On December 29 2008 04:59 iamtt1 wrote: or he only bunks his front and repairs it while waiting on his tank + exps suïcdal terran imo, just runby with goons, you cant focus fire a bunker. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
You're broke, and you can't even handle the tank/s. 10/15 is better not only on 3 player maps, but flat maps. Chokes really ruin this build. 10/15 is also team-hunters goon build and abusive build on Requiem. 10/15 is aggro early game play, often going into some kind of all in. Nony chose it probably to try to quickly take initiative back in the series. It's a easy build to follow up with fast tech or safe expo. It's very flexible and strong on certain maps. I always used to refer to 10/15 as Hungry 2Gate Goon. Cuz you do end up feelin hungry... =( | ||
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TT1
Canada9993 Posts
On December 29 2008 05:02 Gnojfatelob wrote: suïcdal terran imo, just runby with goons, you cant focus fire a bunker. not if he lifts his rack and puts it beside his bunk on the bottom or top and then blocks your goons with his scvs because their going to be there anyways to repair the bunk (or make a depot on the other side but good t's wouldnt need that because it would just slow their exp down and it isnt necessary), alot of the high ranked t users use to do this back in the day tau cross days especially(literally like everytime theyd scout 10/15) but again your assuming different factors or elements, of course if the t bunks and doesnt know what hes doing and leaves huge gaps around his bunk so your goons can easily run in then youd obviously take advantage of that situtation but i can also assume the t knows what hes doing and is easily able to block your run in, a perfectly excuted 10/15 vs a perfectly executed defencive style from the t = the terran would gain the advantage because hes playing the counter b.o role while your the agressor you can assume these types of things for any mu, for example in pvz when the z becomes the agressor and goes 9p speedling so he could run into p's base while hes feing and the toss becomes the counter b.oer in this situation, if the toss doesnt know what hes doing and does a shitty block the z is easily going to be able to run in his base but if he does know what hes doing and knows how to execute a perfectly defencive b.o then he gains the advantage in this situation but ^ is one of the main differences between koreans and foreigners on ladders, kors exploit these type of b.os | ||
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
On December 29 2008 01:43 Snacks wrote: 8 - pylon 10 - gateway 11/12 - assimilator 13/14 - core 15 - gateway, cut Probes, Dragoon 17 - pylon, Dragoon Range Two Dragoons at the same time. Works out so both dragoons build simultaneously. Probably not the exact Nony build but here's a variation of it. Edit: Looking at your build actually, the 13 gateway looks a bit out of placed. How does an earlier second gateway work out for you? why do you call it the "nony build". free has been doing this forever. | ||
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Repertoire
Canada92 Posts
On December 29 2008 09:14 rushz0rz wrote: why do you call it the "nony build". free has been doing this forever. ....Because he asked how to execute the build that nony executed in courage? I even know about this build before he did it recently lol. | ||
GTR
51415 Posts
On December 29 2008 09:29 Snacks wrote: ....Because he asked how to execute the build that nony executed in courage? I even know about this build before he did it recently lol. NonY was also the one that popularised it to the general foreigners. I don't see why you have to be such a nit about it being a specific players build. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
everyone has been using it forever on rampless maps but 12 nex is much better then 10/15 on medusa 12 nex is bad on medusa, you cant rush it but you can double exp and wall off the natural. leaves protoss in fine shape anyway but you'll be way better off with wall harass or shuttle builds. | ||
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
On December 29 2008 10:19 GTR-2-Go wrote: NonY was also the one that popularised it to the general foreigners. I don't see why you have to be such a nit about it being a specific players build. Because it's stupid to call it the "NonY build" when players have been using it forever. Just because people see it just got done by NonY in courage does not mean he made it up. | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
On December 29 2008 10:42 rushz0rz wrote: Because it's stupid to call it the "NonY build" when players have been using it forever. Just because people see it just got done by NonY in courage does not mean he made it up. Did you even read the comments above? GTR's point was that you don't have to invent a build to have it named after you. Simply popularizing it is enough - and you could certainly make the case that NonY has popularized 10/15 gate on Medusa via that Courage video. Think about it man, it's extremely rare to see a build actually named after the player who invented it. The common practice is to name the build for whoever made it famous: for example, Bisu, Mondragon, Kwanro...I'm sure not nearly all of these guys invented their builds. They just made high-profile, successful use of them. | ||
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TT1
Canada9993 Posts
the only real famous b.os named after players which i can think of are like the gundam rush, skterran, sparksterran rush(or however u called it, i would use this name to talk about the early game bio rush sync or blaze would use tvz against sunks), the boxer build(early game tank drop tvp) and flash stlyle | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
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fearus
China2164 Posts
On December 29 2008 10:52 jwd241224 wrote: Did you even read the comments above? GTR's point was that you don't have to invent a build to have it named after you. Simply popularizing it is enough - and you could certainly make the case that NonY has popularized 10/15 gate on Medusa via that Courage video. That courage video hasnt even been out for 24 hours yet... | ||
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inss
United States51 Posts
10 gate 11 gas 14 core 15 gate and cut 15. Goon and range 17 pylon Still on 17... 2 goons 21 pylon Still on 21... 2 goons This is the way I do the build, range pops while attacking with 3 goons and next 2 arrive shortly after. Comments?? | ||
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Hypnosis
United States2061 Posts
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TT1
Canada9993 Posts
http://sc.replays.net/replays/playerReplay.aspx?id=18219 | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
On December 29 2008 02:13 iamtt1 wrote: 8 pylon 10 gate 12 assi 13 core 15 gate 15 pylon (some pylon after goon good but this way is much faster especially on 3 base maps where your only goal with your scout is to find the t's base) 15 range 15 goon etc. (or u can go 15 probe and wait for pylon which is like a few seconds, i usually use the 16 probe to scout then goon) but 12 nex is much better then 10/15 on medusa Nony does this build a LOT. He even did it vs me PvP on Troy at WCG - but cutting even more probes to make an early zealot. I've used this build with plenty of success even on ramped maps, but it's definitely best on maps where T has to work hard to defend his wall without losing tanks before siege. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/2827_free_vs_UpMagiC/vod | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
what are the optimal ways to "defend" it aka blocking it with minimal casualties? (I am asking about flat maps where this build should be used) is there any way to defend it if I didn't wall? and what are my options if I did? should I make any marines? thx in advance | ||
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TT1
Canada9993 Posts
wall = 11gas then take like all 3 scvs(or 2) out of gas when you have 100 so you could exp earlier, if you wallin 0 marines <-- would be the best way to defend 10/15 on flat maps, the key is not to slow yourself down too much | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 29 2008 02:13 iamtt1 wrote: 8 pylon 10 gate 12 assi 13 core 15 gate 15 pylon (some pylon after goon good but this way is much faster especially on 3 base maps where your only goal with your scout is to find the t's base) 15 range 15 goon etc. (or u can go 15 probe and wait for pylon which is like a few seconds, i usually use the 16 probe to scout then goon) but 12 nex is much better then 10/15 on medusa Nony would disagree with you considering he used it every game on Medusa and never lost a single time. | ||
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naonao
United States847 Posts
On December 30 2008 02:17 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Nony would disagree with you considering he used it every game on Medusa and never lost a single time. Wait didn't he lose one? I thought they corrected the 3-0 with 10/15 before finals later to nony having lost one..... gotta go rewatch and check. Yeah he lost one to a 2fac build | ||
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Naib
Hungary4843 Posts
We should, on the other hand, name it the anti-IdrA build because he acted so condescending about it, how about that? | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
How does this build work against 2 factory rushes? does it lose? what is the proper response? How about against 1fact 1port fast drop builds? fast vulture drop builds? also fast tank drop? proxy barracks (unlikely on medusa but still i'd like to hear about it)? what is the best follow up if the terran does not lose immediately? expo? and then perhaps DT? and gain map control expo again and then arbiters? where are there replays/vods of people doing this build beyond the initial one? could a good player (C+ or above) play someone good on iccup and use this build once if possible? is there anything nonstandard that fares strangely well against this build (ex. how would biomech do?)? are there vods or replays of each individual specific terran response that i have mentioned here against this build? MAJOR thanks in advance! | ||
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Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
On December 29 2008 15:26 Hypnosis wrote: fuck this build its for all in toss newbs who cant micro :DD. Jk its scary as fuck You realise the whole point of this build is to be able to micro half decently. Though I will admit it takes a decent terran to not lose too many scvs/the initial tank. It's still fairly micro intensive at the start. And yes I saw the jk, but I don't like that cop out. | ||
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Sanity.
United States704 Posts
10 gate 11 assimilator 13 core 15 gate 16 range/pylon (cut probes at 16) when second gate warps in make 2 goons, 20 psi 20 another probe 21 pylon + 2 goons most efficient build for 4 goons and fast range imo | ||
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Gnojfatelob
Belgium216 Posts
On January 01 2009 22:28 Sanity. wrote: 8 pylon 10 gate 11 assimilator 13 core 15 gate 16 range/pylon (cut probes at 16) when second gate warps in make 2 goons, 20 psi 20 another probe 21 pylon + 2 goons most efficient build for 4 goons and fast range imo Not really, i tested several of them since i started this post, and the one that got the best results in overal, i.e. both early pressure and decent economy to go in the late game is the one listed below. Also the build is longer than others because you are the aggressor and there will be no harass and you shouldnt lose any goons early on, so the numbers will be correct longer. 8 pylon 10 gate 11 assim 13 core 15 gate + cut probes 15 range 15 goon 17 pylon 17 2 goons 21 probe 22 pylon 22 probe 23 2 goons 27 probe 28 either pylon or nexus depends on the succes of your first 5 goons wether you wanna keep pressuring or get your exp up. If you go for the nexus its best to wait a little longer, get two more goons out and stick at 33, saving minerals till 400, for a while doing some more dmg with your 7 goons (if they are still alive) and then build both a nexus and a pylon | ||
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Sanity.
United States704 Posts
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RisingTide
Australia769 Posts
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
This is like, how to goon rush 101. I like cutting goons after 5 and going DTs ~_~ Best, build, ever~ besides DT drop. I am curious about the PvP variation with probe cuts for the zealot. Sounds like a build I would like to use quite often. | ||
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Gnojfatelob
Belgium216 Posts
On January 01 2009 21:39 anotak wrote: I have some specific questions (and an effort to make the strategy section more like the korean sites seem to be): How does this build work against 2 factory rushes? does it lose? what is the proper response? As far as i know you will not be able to stop the terran from scouting this since you only do it on a flat map and you need all you probes mining because you are poor as it is. Once the terran has scouted it he has only 1 option and that is going for a wall repair and siege expand. Every second his siege is late he will be hurting by the goons. How about against 1fact 1port fast drop builds? fast vulture drop builds? also fast tank drop? 2 factory rush is actually later than your pressure so its not really a rush. If you see him going 2 fact (you can count his tanks, with single fact he should only have 1 when you got 1 goon, and two when you got 3 goons) just slap down your third gate and standard pvt begins. Actually i think that due to his slow siege the terran takes too much risk and will suffer a lot from the early pressure. same with 1fact/fast drop. It cant be a fast drop because the terran must dedicate all resources to that siege expand. Drop will be late, obs will be out and you should see the drop coming. proxy barracks (unlikely on medusa but still i'd like to hear about it)? proxy barracks depends on micro, but i wouldn't advise this for the terran since taking on goons with pure marines is starcraft suicide. what is the best follow up if the terran does not lose immediately? expo? and then perhaps DT? and gain map control expo again and then arbiters? the follow up is expanding ofc. You have to decide base on the succes of your first 5 goons wether to build more and keep pressuring or to start an expand. The decision must be made again every time 2 goons pop out. Very situational, but if both players play perfect (i.e. no tank loss, no goon loss and no wall break), its best to expand after 5 goons. Expansion timing will be the same compared to the terran as in any other standard PvT, worker count should also be the levelled again (probe cut vs repairing scv snipe). So all PvT strats apply. where are there replays/vods of people doing this build beyond the initial one? could a good player (C+ or above) play someone good on iccup and use this build once if possible? If you wanna see vods, just check tlpd, click maps>medusa and pick any PvT. Chances are good it will be a 10/15. For reps same principle, look for PvT on medusa. is there anything nonstandard that fares strangely well against this build (ex. how would biomech Again the same as stated before, the 10/15 force the terran to siege expand. Another option is going for mines. This will also stop the goons from advancing, but the terran wall will fail and the terran expansion will be late and leave him behind for the rest of the game. Ofc protoss will occasionally run into the mines, lose too many goons and vultures will raid his base, but if you gotta count on this as a terran then there is something wrong with your gameplan. When facing mines with a 10/15 you should just wait for observers while delaying the terran expansion and taking your own. I actually like to get a dropship and fill it with zealots. His mine choice will have him making vults in beginning, so he will have less tanks when the expansion comes up and a bulldog will be very effective. Lol, this is starting to become a guide, and i actually didn't even know the build order when is started this post. I will test some of these counters, try to find some reps for each of them, to get a better idea of timings from the various counters. When i have time for it that is... | ||
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Gnojfatelob
Belgium216 Posts
On January 02 2009 10:06 SuperJongMan wrote: I am curious about the PvP variation with probe cuts for the zealot. Sounds like a build I would like to use quite often. That would be the 9/10 gate you normally use vs zerg i guess. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
Nonys pvp build on troy vs louder 2gating: 8p,10gate, 13core, 13z, 15gate, 15p, 15goon, 18g, 20goon, p, goons Note this has no range. So you can stick range in there but that will slow units down some. As far as what specific bo is best (pah) for this 10/15 build plan vs T...this build can be done different ways with different tradeoffs depending on the order you go for the first goon/range/pylon. I think the key B.O. question here is what is more important -- faster goons or faster range. It is unclear to me, but I am leaning towards 15p,15goon,17range while Gnojfatelob has opted for faster range. In fact there is already a thread on this build pvt in the forums someplace with an emphasis on no/late range. Cant find it easily though. here it is: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=67550 | ||
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Sanity.
United States704 Posts
On January 02 2009 09:11 RisingTide wrote: Sanity, your build actually leaves you with one less goon; Gnojfatelob's cuts probes at 15 to allow a goon to be made before the second pylon. no.... you have 4 goons at the EXACT same time but one more probe | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2932 Posts
10 gate 11 gas 13 core 15 gate 15 pylon range then goon That you are somewhat mineral hungry, thus I have found that if you mine 216 gas and then take 2 probes off gas and put them on minerals for a bit, you get a stronger econ. | ||
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GearitUP
United States337 Posts
On December 29 2008 10:19 GTR-2-Go wrote: NonY was also the one that popularised it to the general foreigners. I don't see why you have to be such a nit about it being a specific players build. haha I noticed after the nony at courage video everyone has been mentioning this build order, i tried it a few times on medusa on Iccup, works pretty decently. Really the trick to it is keep pumping goons while your microing the scv's/tank. once you kill the suppy and get in its pretty much GG. Make sure you rally your goons, also I put 3 probes on gas as soon as assimilaor finishes then after I have 2 goons finished, I transfer the 3rd to minerals. | ||
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CorsairHero
Canada9491 Posts
heres the replay http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=6856 this guy only had 1000 pts on iccup so i figured id play him  | ||
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Gnojfatelob
Belgium216 Posts
On January 04 2009 02:47 CorSairHeRo wrote: hey guys, I'd figure i would post in this thread instead of making a new one. I just tried this build and i was able to harass his depot but he was able to repair it using 2 scv's while getting a tank and seige. I had set up a contain and went for a expansion after i had about 10 goons. It turns out that he went for a 2 factory build and owned me. any tips for me on how to over come this? after the expansion i went for a robo bay with observers after i noticed the speed vultures. By that time he had already pushed to my natural. heres the replay http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=6856 this guy only had 1000 pts on iccup so i figured id play him It always helps to scout this before you exp so you can get a third gate, steamroll his rush and be very much ahead. There was a hint of double fact since he didn't expand, but that is hard too see if his tanks are well positioned like they were. Just remember the golden rule: slap down your third gateway rigth after your second nexus and never ever let your obs be late. If you keep these in mind you shouldn't have any problems stopping a 2 fact rush with a 10/15. Also, i do believe your micro was not that good, it should be possible to stop that 3 tank rush with your amount of goons. You lost too much to mines. But if you wanna be safe do as stated above. btw, 1000 points people scare me the most :D i just doesn't feel right when someone has 1000 points. | ||
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knightpraetor
United States180 Posts
second question: when do you scout in this build...i get the feeling that i need to scout later to do this right. I think i'm stocking up too many minerals at 15 but with insufficient gas...maybe my gas goes up late, because i scout after the first pylon? or is my split just too bad..that could have been it too.. anyways, range before goon since you won't be able to start another till the pylon gets up, right? you can goon before pylon to have one more goon..while if you pyloned first, your econ would take less of a hit, but your goon timings are slightly later. so basically it's a question of whether the 10-15 sec you lose on your rush will be made up economically i tend to get range first before the goon, but this means i can't kill his scout as quickly..which means he knows i didn't place the 15 pylon..so he knows this is all-in... anyways, the ordering of goon, pylon, and range is driving me crazy..i don't know which one i really prefer first..i usually look at trying this as an all-in so pylon is last, but regardless a good terran should know whether you did pylon first or goon/range first...and you can't deny the scouting till your first goon is out..so if he sees a later pylon he knows he will need units a tad faster, and vice versa. do you find it viable to go fake 2gate range, cancel goons and go robo into reaver? and would you cancel range i nsuch a situation? or just let the reaver be a little later. man, i'm so sleepy i can't type straight...i'll probably wake up in the morning and find this illegible. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On January 02 2009 16:32 Sanity. wrote: no.... you have 4 goons at the EXACT same time but one more probe How's that possible? In the 10/15, you never have 4 goons at a time. It goes straight from 3 to 5. What are you talking about? | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On January 26 2009 05:14 Shikyo wrote: How's that possible? In the 10/15, you never have 4 goons at a time. It goes straight from 3 to 5. What are you talking about? you can have 4 goon.. 1 goon first, then 2 at the same time, and instead building 2 again you build 1 so you don't have to skip probes again. | ||
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