On September 18 2008 23:50 AlabasterFilth wrote: note that this would never ever work against Terran. Without proper grouping and flanking, the Terran ball will kill literally an infinite amount of zerglings and hydras (It probably still will even with proper grouping and flanking). This strat works because standard toss armies don't have any fast ranged units, no long range splash (even reavers can be overcome with good micro), and templars have a limited number of storms before they either die or are merged into archons.
It is true, when it's up a Terran push can kill an infinite amount of hydraling. However, terran gets delayed if you open mutas cause without mnm muta harass is harder to deal with. After that you take alot of bases and your midgame is all about abusing Metal's lack of mobility. You might lose some bases, but it should not be enough to keep you down.
But yea I wouldn't even bother to try this against SK.
Firebats
but yeah vs hydra/ling terran just chews them up? tanks rape hydras quickly, mmf rape everything quickly... it's just kind of boring
the reason toss can't stop it is because their units are "powerful but few" or something like that... but I would guess dt/sair could stop sauron zerg if you have enough dts? :O (DT WALL LOL)
On September 19 2008 04:03 ]343[ wrote: the reason toss can't stop it is because their units are "powerful but few" or something like that...
Well, it's because P doesn't have as much firepower (just goons), and the zealots are melee units so the lings and hydras can get in close and deal their damage quickly. Compared to Terran, if you run a hydra/ling army into a moderably sized M&M&Tank army, your hydra/ling will just melt before they even get close enough to attack them. Doesn't really matter how many you have; if you come from a direction where there's first M&M and tanks behind them you'll kill nothing and he'll kill everything. Then of course there's matrix and irradiate. You can however try opening hydra/ling, focus fire marines, and then later on add a few lurkers and defilers. Of course it's inferior to standard play, but sometimes it's good to play in a non-standard way. Hydra/ling/ensnare opening in particular is fun.
On September 19 2008 00:33 ZBiR wrote: get some good ol' Blackman replays from 2002-2004, you'll get the answer
Probably could have picked a better example there, but nonetheless Blackman wasnt a terrible Sauron style player. Chojja was very Sauron in my opinion which really led to his downfall when people figured it out and he couldnt really move on, though hes not really straight sauron hes not a hive Z like Savior or Low eco like July. Sauron is pretty outdated but I still try it just cause the name is cool as fuck and when it works you feel like a million bucks.
Sauron Zerg is like Protoss. Drones>Units>Attack>Win If anything else happens your fucked.
On September 19 2008 04:32 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Well, it's because P doesn't have as much firepower (just goons), and the zealots are melee units so the lings and hydras can get in close and deal their damage quickly. Compared to Terran, if you run a hydra/ling army into a moderably sized M&M&Tank army, your hydra/ling will just melt before they even get close enough to attack them. Doesn't really matter how many you have; if you come from a direction where there's first M&M and tanks behind them you'll kill nothing and he'll kill everything. Then of course there's matrix and irradiate. You can however try opening hydra/ling, focus fire marines, and then later on add a few lurkers and defilers. Of course it's inferior to standard play, but sometimes it's good to play in a non-standard way. Hydra/ling/ensnare opening in particular is fun.
When I brought up the use of Sauron Zerg I meant that it should only be used as an answer to Terran pure metal... harass with mutas, skip lurkers and focus on mass expand with hydraling midgame.
If he has medicrines in there forget about it cause your opponent will take down your mass expos very quickly.
On September 19 2008 04:32 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Well, it's because P doesn't have as much firepower (just goons), and the zealots are melee units so the lings and hydras can get in close and deal their damage quickly. Compared to Terran, if you run a hydra/ling army into a moderably sized M&M&Tank army, your hydra/ling will just melt before they even get close enough to attack them. Doesn't really matter how many you have; if you come from a direction where there's first M&M and tanks behind them you'll kill nothing and he'll kill everything. Then of course there's matrix and irradiate. You can however try opening hydra/ling, focus fire marines, and then later on add a few lurkers and defilers. Of course it's inferior to standard play, but sometimes it's good to play in a non-standard way. Hydra/ling/ensnare opening in particular is fun.
When I brought up the use of Sauron Zerg I meant that it should only be used as an answer to Terran pure metal... harass with mutas, skip lurkers and focus on mass expand with hydraling midgame.
If he has medicrines in there forget about it cause your opponent will take down your mass expos very quickly.
SauronZerg skips mutalisks so it can put more gas into upgrades
When I brought up the use of Sauron Zerg I meant that it should only be used as an answer to Terran pure metal... harass with mutas, skip lurkers and focus on mass expand with hydraling midgame.
If he has medicrines in there forget about it cause your opponent will take down your mass expos very quickly.
harass with mutas? That's not sauron, that's either 2hat muta, 3hat muta, or a tech switch after making lurkers (or you're cleaning up plagued vessels).
Hmmm, how to do it...Win the game, then mass expand rather than finish him off, and build endless units until you kill his static defence. Or go noob bashing.
Oh and Sauron Zerg can also refer to mass Hydra/Ling in the midgame. Which is the build I'm tending to do these days. It's very good.
If you rewatch the July v Rock game, how to Sauron Zerg becomes:
1. Find an opponent that doesn't know how to scout to force him to mess up his timing by cannoning his mineral line and overcannoning his nat. 2. Kill his second gas to delay templar tech. 3. Find an opponent who takes a late 3rd (island) with 10+ cannons but doesn't shuttle in probes. 4. Find an opponent who doesn't know when to time his push and whose army is down 24 zealots because he built 16 more cannons than he needed.
In short, Rock's macro blew because of a late 3rd that never really got up and running and he overinvested in cannons and didn't have enough templar because of a lack of gas and couldn't push out.
On September 19 2008 09:47 Saracen wrote: If you rewatch the July v Rock game, how to Sauron Zerg becomes:
1. Find an opponent that doesn't know how to scout to force him to mess up his timing by cannoning his mineral line and overcannoning his nat. 2. Kill his second gas to delay templar tech. 3. Find an opponent who takes a late 3rd (island) with 10+ cannons but doesn't shuttle in probes. 4. Find an opponent who doesn't know when to time his push and whose army is down 24 zealots because he built 16 more cannons than he needed.
In short, Rock's macro blew because of a late 3rd that never really got up and running and he overinvested in cannons and didn't have enough templar because of a lack of gas and couldn't push out.
On September 18 2008 22:31 b0red111 wrote: So I think just about everyone has seen the GIF with all of July's pretty lines streaming to the enemy base, but how does one get to that stage? Is it just a point of the game where Zerg has been in controll and takes all the bases to kind of "lol @ protoss 1a2a3a4a"? Or is it a legitimate strategy much like 3 hat to lair and lurkers or 5 hat hydra?
If it is a feasible strategy like those, how do you do it? In other words, what are some key timings//opening build orders that set you up for that kind of endgame?
Sauron Zerg is much more of a condition than a set of strategy and build orders. It requires the protoss to be passive early game, preferably a FE, and the zerg greedily expands while insisting on staying a lower tech.
However its glaring weakness is the protoss's ability to harass with corsair and shuttle, therefore forcing the zerg into making mass hydra, which in turn make it an intensive uphill battle for the zerg when the toss starts to throw in zeals/goons/templars.
Also, you must take into consideration that July vs Rock game is quite old, and you will very rarely see that kind of strategic/build order disparity between players now, because protoss have learned to master the variants in FE far better.
Jaedong aimed to achieve a heavy and greedy eco advantage similar to the sauron zerg condition and han made his way with some very aggressive tech choices and not taking a 3rd as fast as normally made in regular blue storm games. Jae was on pure hydra for most of the game, and struggled to taken control of the mid. Han plays a risky but smart methodical approach towards the end of the game by investing in a heavy goon/templar hanbang and wiping the floor against the lurker/scourge field and not taking a 3rd gas at all for the whole game through. The delayed tech throughout the whole game is what slowly deterred the game for him. Had he gotten his lair tech secured quicker, he may have been able to easily hold the center of the map as many standard play goes on the map, not have felt so much damage from the corsairs, and secured the fourth, turning it into a macro war. But I think Jaedong felt confident enough in his multi-tasking ability and his precision with hydras to deal with the haphazards of the tech variations, because if a zerg is able to fend off the protoss harass with little to no damage, the game becomes heavily favorable for sauron zerg, but that's just my own speculation.
Of course I'm not expecting you to face some incredibly perfect timing abilities like by.han, but beware of the openings you would be giving to a protoss by playing greedily early on.
Much versus 815 on Andromeda. It's a nice game, you get to see Much decide that reavers are easy, but he's got so many of them and shuttles are such a waste. And...12 reavers bite the dust.
Infested, I think it's safe to say that in the hearts and minds of most Teamliquiders, the definition was changed. The official definition is old and not really that relevant in the world of solid build orders and one's willingness to cut lings to build drones. Starcraft is not immune to definition metamorphosis.
EPT
