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On September 12 2008 19:53 arb wrote:
Just dont worry about fucking APM jesus christ,it'll raise when you get better -_-
On September 12 2008 16:01 red.venom wrote:
u just freakin get better and your apm rises until it reaches a natural point
I agree with Day[9]'s old post, and disagree strongly with statements like these.
You can't just say 'mass 8 billion games and you'll improve apm', it's not that simple. I know players on b.net, and a few of my friends who play starcraft, who have played for OVER 6 YEARS and OVER 9000 GAMES and they still have abysmal APM, between 60-100.
Speed isn't one thing that will naturally improve by itself, it is comprised of different things: APM, multitask ability, and game sense. For each of these different facets of speed, I've seen examples of isolated skill gaps: for example, I've played with people who have high (useful) APM, and a keen game sense, but when they do a high templar storm drop, their macro suffers for about 10-15 seconds and all of a sudden they pile up 1500 minerals. Poor multitask. As a converse example, I've seen people, myself included, who have decent multitask, decent game sense, but lack the APM necessary for high-speed moves such as cloning 12 scourge to kill 6 vessels that are only vulnerable for about a second or two, or coordinating a huge tri-directional lurker/ling flank with perfectly placed swarm support. Poor speed. As one final example, I've seen yet other players who have good APM and multitask, but will focus on microing two lurkers against some tanks while 8 of their ultralisks get irradiated. Poor game sense. You see, speed involves multiple separate elements, each of which need to be trained.
There are plenty of ways to improve each of these separately. Need to improve your APM? BlueIris has developed a very good and very simple exercise to help you. Need to improve multitask? A good place to start is the python multitask training map. Need to improve game sense? Well, this one is a bit harder, and is probably one area where it's ok to say 'mass games and your game sense will improve'
Do you think professional sports athletes such as NFL players are told to mass games until they improve? Of course not, they do very specific exercises to individually train each aspect of their game: strength (working out), speed (running obstacle courses such as adjacent tires, etc.), receiving (running same pass plays over and over again until they are memorized), tackling (practice tackling padded, weighted devices), even game sense (scrimmages against themselves or other teams). Each part is individually trained and practiced; that's how physical sports players train, and that's how I think YOU, a starcraft player, should train.
I know it's an obvious argument, but look at the best teams in the world, the Korean teams such as MBC or CJ Entus, or KTF, etc. How many of their players have < 150 apm? I'd venture to say none (although I don't know that for fact). Yes, with low apm, you can hone your timings, game sense, and multitask to their limits, but eventually you will play against someone who will just play faster, and you will lose because of it. the Koreans know this, and they train so that they have APM to pull of the amount of moves, strategies, and multitasks that are needed to win top-level games.
Some people say 'improve your skill and your apm will rise'. I think these people have it backwards; it should be 'improve your apm, and your skill will rise'. We all know to go back to our 8 barracks every few seconds and select+m, select+m, select+m. We all know how to clone scourge, how to unload shuttles while moving, etc. We have the skill, just not the speed to execute in a fast-paced, real-game setting. Practice your speed, which will in turn let you pull off that amazing zealot bomb + goon flank while maintaining perfect macro and also storming a mineral line, which will in turn improve your skill, which will in turn win you games.
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Ask a progamer, or a low apm well known player?
Practice hotkeying and stuff on a self made ums map with an apm timer? Ie practice continually building rines from 16 rax with 270 apm and setting rally pts.
All else fails download a ums map for this?
And there are threads for this. I saw one last week about how to increase apm. TL doesnt let you search for 3 letter words like 'apm' though... something to do with bandwith? You can use google and tl though.
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On September 13 2008 05:05 AlabasterFilth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2008 19:53 arb wrote:
Just dont worry about fucking APM jesus christ,it'll raise when you get better -_-
Show nested quote +On September 12 2008 16:01 red.venom wrote:
u just freakin get better and your apm rises until it reaches a natural point I agree with Day[9]'s old post, and disagree strongly with statements like these. You can't just say 'mass 8 billion games and you'll improve apm', it's not that simple. I know players on b.net, and a few of my friends who play starcraft, who have played for OVER 6 YEARS and OVER 9000 GAMES and they still have abysmal APM, between 60-100. Speed isn't one thing that will naturally improve by itself, it is comprised of different things: APM, multitask ability, and game sense. For each of these different facets of speed, I've seen examples of isolated skill gaps: for example, I've played with people who have high (useful) APM, and a keen game sense, but when they do a high templar storm drop, their macro suffers for about 10-15 seconds and all of a sudden they pile up 1500 minerals. Poor multitask. As a converse example, I've seen people, myself included, who have decent multitask, decent game sense, but lack the APM necessary for high-speed moves such as cloning 12 scourge to kill 6 vessels that are only vulnerable for about a second or two, or coordinating a huge tri-directional lurker/ling flank with perfectly placed swarm support. Poor speed. As one final example, I've seen yet other players who have good APM and multitask, but will focus on microing two lurkers against some tanks while 8 of their ultralisks get irradiated. Poor game sense. You see, speed involves multiple separate elements, each of which need to be trained. There are plenty of ways to improve each of these separately. Need to improve your APM? BlueIris has developed a very good and very simple exercise to help you. Need to improve multitask? A good place to start is the python multitask training map. Need to improve game sense? Well, this one is a bit harder, and is probably one area where it's ok to say 'mass games and your game sense will improve' Do you think professional sports athletes such as NFL players are told to mass games until they improve? Of course not, they do very specific exercises to individually train each aspect of their game: strength (working out), speed (running obstacle courses such as adjacent tires, etc.), receiving (running same pass plays over and over again until they are memorized), tackling (practice tackling padded, weighted devices), even game sense (scrimmages against themselves or other teams). Each part is individually trained and practiced; that's how physical sports players train, and that's how I think YOU, a starcraft player, should train. I know it's an obvious argument, but look at the best teams in the world, the Korean teams such as MBC or CJ Entus, or KTF, etc. How many of their players have < 150 apm? I'd venture to say none (although I don't know that for fact). Yes, with low apm, you can hone your timings, game sense, and multitask to their limits, but eventually you will play against someone who will just play faster, and you will lose because of it. the Koreans know this, and they train so that they have APM to pull of the amount of moves, strategies, and multitasks that are needed to win top-level games.
Some people say 'improve your skill and your apm will rise'. I think these people have it backwards; it should be 'improve your apm, and your skill will rise'. We all know to go back to our 8 barracks every few seconds and select+m, select+m, select+m. We all know how to clone scourge, how to unload shuttles while moving, etc. We have the skill, just not the speed to execute in a fast-paced, real-game setting. Practice your speed, which will in turn let you pull off that amazing zealot bomb + goon flank while maintaining perfect macro and also storming a mineral line, which will in turn improve your skill, which will in turn win you games.
Ohhhhh man, I disagree. You can't just magically make yourself faster by having higher apm, high apm is not equal to speed, they aren't synonomous. And for 99% of the foreign players who aren't planning on playing in proleague 150 eapm (my apm is ~150 and usually around 110 eapm) is enough to get B level on iccup which is good enough to be in the top 10% (random estimation) of all competitive foreigners.
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On September 12 2008 19:53 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2008 16:01 red.venom wrote:
u just freakin get better and your apm rises until it reaches a natural point Just dont worry about fucking APM jesus christ,it'll raise when you get better -_-
My friend dominates me in any matchup (he even lets me decide the matchup when we play).
I realized APM wasn't everything when he raped me in a game and bwcharts said I had an apm of 185 (around average, little under) and he had an apm of 70...
APM isn't everything.
Macro, Precise Micro, Strategy, Timing, etc.
None REQUIRE a high APM.
I can get an APM of 1000 if I hotkey my nexus and hold down 7.
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On September 13 2008 02:19 dream-_- wrote:
why does this keep coming up.
step 1 - get an apm meter
step 2 - set it UNLOGICLY HIGH
step 3 - spam the hell out of your computer/mouse (BUT MAKE SURE YOU ARE WORKING ON PRECISION WITH YOUR MOUSE OR YOUR WASTING TIME, Imo days advice of little boxes is bad advice, you need to work on precision with the mouse more than spamming. practice clicking on EVERYthing. click minerals, click units, buildings, his units, whatever the fuck you want. if you want to practice making boxes do it by selecting groups and re assigning hotkeys to get used to doing this. also at the start I do little boxes to practice selecting all my workers.)
step 4 - loose many games
Did this when I came back, my apm was at 150. For a week I just practiced apm and now I reach around 290 with a eapm of around 170. (when I was practicing I had apm of around 380-400, with a vapm of around 130).
adn taht helps ur game? u get more by just practicing and playn. even thou it shows on the meter taht ur good, ur not
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Yeah apm's really helpfull.
Love it when I beat people at D+ level with 350 apm, and all I see in bwchar is spam spam spam.
Whats the point? You don't get any better by doing that, if anything the constant struggle to keep at an unrealistic high level of apm makes you focus on the wrong thing.
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On September 13 2008 14:07 osmark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2008 02:19 dream-_- wrote:
why does this keep coming up.
step 1 - get an apm meter
step 2 - set it UNLOGICLY HIGH
step 3 - spam the hell out of your computer/mouse (BUT MAKE SURE YOU ARE WORKING ON PRECISION WITH YOUR MOUSE OR YOUR WASTING TIME, Imo days advice of little boxes is bad advice, you need to work on precision with the mouse more than spamming. practice clicking on EVERYthing. click minerals, click units, buildings, his units, whatever the fuck you want. if you want to practice making boxes do it by selecting groups and re assigning hotkeys to get used to doing this. also at the start I do little boxes to practice selecting all my workers.)
step 4 - loose many games
Did this when I came back, my apm was at 150. For a week I just practiced apm and now I reach around 290 with a eapm of around 170. (when I was practicing I had apm of around 380-400, with a vapm of around 130).
adn taht helps ur game? u get more by just practicing and playn. even thou it shows on the meter taht ur good, ur not
What did you just say? I don't even know.
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"And that helps your game? You get more by just practicing and playing"
By this he means that it doesnt help your game to spam retarded things that doesnt do any good.
And you get more improvement by practicing and playing without trying to reach high apm.
"even thou it shows on the meter taht ur good, ur not"
With this he means that even though you can read 300 apm in bwchart, it doesnt mean you're any good.
Im not even from an english speaking country and I understood it :p
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On September 13 2008 12:51 Jonoman92 wrote:
Ohhhhh man, I disagree. You can't just magically make yourself faster by having higher apm, high apm is not equal to speed, they aren't synonomous. And for 99% of the foreign players who aren't planning on playing in proleague 150 eapm (my apm is ~150 and usually around 110 eapm) is enough to get B level on iccup which is good enough to be in the top 10% (random estimation) of all competitive foreigners.
It's not 'magic'. It's a process, one that starts by training your hands and mind to act and think quickly. Once you can do that, improve your game sense, timings, and multitask ability so that you turn those quick actions into quick and meaningful actions.
Also, read the rest of my post, I agree that high apm and speed are not synonymous, for the reasons I explained.
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An heavily edited extract from my macro guide:
ZerG~LegenD wrote:
One key to speed is to always know what you're supposed to do, and knowing it by heart.
The poor player spends a lot of time thinking about what to do, hence he doesn't have time to actually do it. As the poor player grows better he learns how to spend his time; now the problem is to actually do all these things he thought about on beforehand. However, eventually he'll manage, and then he'll start to think about more, not as necessary, though still useful, things to do. Eventually he'll learn to execute these too.
Executing an action is made up of two parts.
1) Remembering what action to do, or possibly figuring it out if it's an familiar situation. The second scenario would drain a LOT of time, something we want to avoid.
2) Remembering how to do the action.
3) Actually doing the action.
While number 3 is made up entirely of muscle memory and hence must be practised in-game, number 1 and 2 may be trained while not playing. Though some imaginations might be needed to relate the memory to the right in-game situation.
Another thing to consider is this: The more time you spend watching your commands being executed, the less time you'll have to give new commands. The efficient player will always be giving commands but will never be watching them being executed. It's a matter of trusting yourself with being able to give commands without miss-clicking.
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On September 13 2008 14:07 osmark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2008 02:19 dream-_- wrote:
why does this keep coming up.
step 1 - get an apm meter
step 2 - set it UNLOGICLY HIGH
step 3 - spam the hell out of your computer/mouse (BUT MAKE SURE YOU ARE WORKING ON PRECISION WITH YOUR MOUSE OR YOUR WASTING TIME, Imo days advice of little boxes is bad advice, you need to work on precision with the mouse more than spamming. practice clicking on EVERYthing. click minerals, click units, buildings, his units, whatever the fuck you want. if you want to practice making boxes do it by selecting groups and re assigning hotkeys to get used to doing this. also at the start I do little boxes to practice selecting all my workers.)
step 4 - loose many games
Did this when I came back, my apm was at 150. For a week I just practiced apm and now I reach around 290 with a eapm of around 170. (when I was practicing I had apm of around 380-400, with a vapm of around 130).
adn taht helps ur game? u get more by just practicing and playn. even thou it shows on the meter taht ur good, ur not
Don't misspell things and be retarded on purpose.
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YOU DON'T NEED HIGH APM TO PLAY
BUT YOU PLAY TO HAVE HIGH APM
WHY CAN'T ANYONE GET THAT INTO THEIR MIND
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On September 14 2008 09:02 BanZu wrote:
YOU DON'T NEED HIGH APM TO PLAY
BUT YOU PLAY TO HAVE HIGH APM
WHY CAN'T ANYONE GET THAT INTO THEIR MIND
don't be an idiot
On September 13 2008 14:07 osmark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2008 02:19 dream-_- wrote:
why does this keep coming up.
step 1 - get an apm meter
step 2 - set it UNLOGICLY HIGH
step 3 - spam the hell out of your computer/mouse (BUT MAKE SURE YOU ARE WORKING ON PRECISION WITH YOUR MOUSE OR YOUR WASTING TIME, Imo days advice of little boxes is bad advice, you need to work on precision with the mouse more than spamming. practice clicking on EVERYthing. click minerals, click units, buildings, his units, whatever the fuck you want. if you want to practice making boxes do it by selecting groups and re assigning hotkeys to get used to doing this. also at the start I do little boxes to practice selecting all my workers.)
step 4 - loose many games
Did this when I came back, my apm was at 150. For a week I just practiced apm and now I reach around 290 with a eapm of around 170. (when I was practicing I had apm of around 380-400, with a vapm of around 130).
adn taht helps ur game? u get more by just practicing and playn. even thou it shows on the meter taht ur good, ur not
after doing apm practice, my movement felt more fluid and helped raise my overall apm without increasing my spam content permanently. The spam naturally transfered into useful actions.
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On September 14 2008 09:02 BanZu wrote:
YOU DON'T NEED HIGH APM TO PLAY
BUT YOU PLAY TO HAVE HIGH APM
WHY CAN'T ANYONE GET THAT INTO THEIR MIND
explain that part.
i don't get it.
do you play to show off your high apm?
people usually play to win.
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speed and precision opens a whole new world of possibilities in games.
if you ever want to play on a decent level I suggest you force your apm up.
edit - i strongly advise anyone reading this thread not to listen to the posts saying just play games and improve as you play. these are the people who play who play for years and wonder why they are not getting any better. a mindful practice regiment is needed for ALL aspects of bw, including (but not) just apm.
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On September 13 2008 13:30 tyr0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2008 19:53 arb wrote:On September 12 2008 16:01 red.venom wrote:
u just freakin get better and your apm rises until it reaches a natural point Just dont worry about fucking APM jesus christ,it'll raise when you get better -_- My friend dominates me in any matchup (he even lets me decide the matchup when we play). I realized APM wasn't everything when he raped me in a game and bwcharts said I had an apm of 185 (around average, little under) and he had an apm of 70... APM isn't everything. Macro, Precise Micro, Strategy, Timing, etc. None REQUIRE a high APM. I can get an APM of 1000 if I hotkey my nexus and hold down 7.
I believe to be able to do all of those in unison takes quite a bit of apm, especially the first two.
And your last statement there makes no sense I have no idea why you said it as it doesn't contribute anything. Hypocricy. If you have that kind of an apm difference with someone and you're losing you must only focus on spamming, because that's quite sad.
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Agree with previous two posters.
APM business is common sense, don' t improve your speed on spamming, imrprove your speed by focusing on the things that will make you a better player (Macro, Precise Micro, Strategy, Timing, etc. hehehe)
Here's another thread (by Chill) not directly related to APM: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=66048
On February 05 2008 01:37 Chill wrote:
Surprise, surprise, I believe improving your mechanics is a mindset. Once you’ve improved your game sense to the point you know what you should be doing, the first step to improvement is convincing yourself that you can do it. There are no real tricks here, and people who tell you to spam to raise your APM are beyond stupid. It takes a concerted effort, telling yourself “I can play faster”, to improve your speed. You will increase your speed in steps; making a conscious effort to play uncomfortably fast for awhile until that becomes routine, and you must again realize that you can play faster.
off topic: what is VAPM? I played a random game against the computer and my APM was 185 while VAPM was 184. is this good or bad?
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the best way to increase your apm is to masturbate 8 times a day with each hand
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vapm iirc is when you spam mmmmm not enough minerals.
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dunno what vamp is but eapm is apm minus repetitive actions like when I hotkey my nexus to 1,2,3 at beginning of game and cycle through 123123 or if you hotkey a buildings to a number and just hold it down.
I use bwrepinfo to find it. It's interetsing to look because just when I think i'm getting faster with 150 apm my eapm will only be like 110.
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EPT
