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On September 14 2008 11:03 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2008 13:30 tyr0 wrote:On September 12 2008 19:53 arb wrote:On September 12 2008 16:01 red.venom wrote:
u just freakin get better and your apm rises until it reaches a natural point Just dont worry about fucking APM jesus christ,it'll raise when you get better -_- My friend dominates me in any matchup (he even lets me decide the matchup when we play). I realized APM wasn't everything when he raped me in a game and bwcharts said I had an apm of 185 (around average, little under) and he had an apm of 70... APM isn't everything. Macro, Precise Micro, Strategy, Timing, etc. None REQUIRE a high APM. I can get an APM of 1000 if I hotkey my nexus and hold down 7. I believe to be able to do all of those in unison takes quite a bit of apm, especially the first two. And your last statement there makes no sense I have no idea why you said it as it doesn't contribute anything. Hypocricy. If you have that kind of an apm difference with someone and you're losing you must only focus on spamming, because that's quite sad.
no i do not spam (at least past the first few probes).
i am trying to prove that apm isn't everything.
i can theoretically get a higher apm than a progamer yet it does not mean i am better.
i would like to clarify that this game was an abnormal game.
the friend i refer to usually has much MUCH higher apm.
i was just trying to prove that a high apm is not a direct correlation to skill and success.
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Russian Federation386 Posts
VAPM is an attempt to be a more useful speed indicator. Actions excluded from VAMP are such as spamming make a unit when you don't have enough resources/supply or ordering to construct a building then doing it again before the actual construction starts.
EAMP is much more useful IMO. Its arguments are:
Select without subsequent action
Too close destination point
Too fast repeating rate
etc.
This produces a rather accurate Effective APM number. The app to see your EAPM is called BWRepInfo. Unfortunately it is only for Windows 
Pros like Jaedong (350+ APM) have about 240 EAPM.
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On September 14 2008 09:28 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2008 09:02 BanZu wrote:
YOU DON'T NEED HIGH APM TO PLAY
BUT YOU PLAY TO HAVE HIGH APM
WHY CAN'T ANYONE GET THAT INTO THEIR MIND don't be an idiot
Great argument.
On September 14 2008 09:34 tyr0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2008 09:02 BanZu wrote:
YOU DON'T NEED HIGH APM TO PLAY
BUT YOU PLAY TO HAVE HIGH APM
WHY CAN'T ANYONE GET THAT INTO THEIR MIND explain that part. i don't get it. do you play to show off your high apm? people usually play to win.
The problem with the OP is that he's trying to improve APM where what he should really try to improve are his mechanics and game sense. If he knew what he should be doing, which is easy to learn through commented FPVODs of better players, then he would immediately require higher APM in order to carry out what he's learned. Through continual practice he'll naturally get higher APM.
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United States24767 Posts
I've found it interesting over the past few years to play some people in bw and see how good they are approximately, then research what their apm is. Often, people who are significantly worse than me bragged about their apm being fairly high... and it obviously yielded no return for them. Beating a 160 apm toss with 130 apm consistently implies they don't need to be using 160 apm and are just making stupid actions.
I'm still not that good for a slew of reasons (mainly map) but I have very efficient apm use because I've refused to try to increase it any way besides by playing.
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On September 14 2008 23:39 micronesia wrote:
I've found it interesting over the past few years to play some people in bw and see how good they are approximately, then research what their apm is. Often, people who are significantly worse than me bragged about their apm being fairly high... and it obviously yielded no return for them. Beating a 160 apm toss with 130 apm consistently implies they don't need to be using 160 apm and are just making stupid actions.
I'm still not that good for a slew of reasons (mainly map) but I have very efficient apm use because I've refused to try to increase it any way besides by playing.
have fun being bad
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United States24767 Posts
On September 15 2008 06:37 dream-_- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2008 23:39 micronesia wrote:
I've found it interesting over the past few years to play some people in bw and see how good they are approximately, then research what their apm is. Often, people who are significantly worse than me bragged about their apm being fairly high... and it obviously yielded no return for them. Beating a 160 apm toss with 130 apm consistently implies they don't need to be using 160 apm and are just making stupid actions.
I'm still not that good for a slew of reasons (mainly map) but I have very efficient apm use because I've refused to try to increase it any way besides by playing. have fun being bad
Actually you are wrong because I don't play that much. It would be stupid to spend my couple of hours a week on apm exercises. And even if that weren't true, I still disagree with you. I've seen countless players 'raise their apm' by a great deal and suck equally. That's not to say it can't help, but I hate how so many people feel it's like this automatic ez win strategy.
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Control your army(s) at all times + constant production = 250+ apm easily, very hard to do though...
For zerg just constantly cycle through all your hatches with hotkeys. For example, if you are doing muta harass and you want to make drones for your third expo, you do the dash in and out muta micro, but remind yourself that every time you pull out, you produce from a hatch or two (4sd 5sd), then go back in again to hit something else, repeat. A lot of newer players forget to produce when they muta micro, when they pull mutas out they have like 1000 minerals and still on the same supply, that's bad. If you keep the production up and muta harass constantly, you should be at 200+ apm easy.
Another example, if you are moving 3 groups of hydras, don't spam "1 right click, 2 right click, 3 right click" over and over again, just move the hydras once...then cycle through your hatches for another round of production. Then come back to adjust your hydra positioning again, and then cycle your hatches for another round of production.
If you have BWchart the APM composition is nice, for decent zerg macro you need about 90-105 macro apm, and for micro 120-150 apm, that should put you comfortably at 210-255 APM overall.
I'm not familiar with Terran or Toss apm composition for their production systems are weird, it appears that they spend more time with their army, and about the same 90-105 apm for macro.
Edit: People mentioned FPVODs, those are good. Make sure you are looking at the action panel at the bottom of the screen, and not just watching the battles, because the action panel tells you exactly what the player is doing. For zerg it's always hatch and larva and hatch and larva...
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don't focus on your apm, that won't help you get better. focus on multitasking, macroing, microing etc. and force yourself to make use of every action. a high apm that is mostly spam has a lot of useless actions, and doesn't improve you at all. forcing yourself to set a faster pace and mentally remind yourself to do this or do that will help improve your pace in the game, which is much more important than caring about what apm you have.
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On September 16 2008 04:14 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
don't focus on your apm, that won't help you get better. focus on multitasking, macroing, microing etc. and force yourself to make use of every action. a high apm that is mostly spam has a lot of useless actions, and doesn't improve you at all. forcing yourself to set a faster pace and mentally remind yourself to do this or do that will help improve your pace in the game, which is much more important than caring about what apm you have.
This has already been brought up countless times and rebutted countless times:
1) Yes, what you are saying is true for the short term; you will have useless actions, and you won't see immediate improvement.
2) However, in the long term, you will reap massive benefits (I know, I myself have improved a lot in just the last 2-3 months). Without training your muscle memory and mechanics, "forcing yourself to set a faster pace and mentally remind yourself to do this or do that", as you put it, will be fruitless. Train your hand-speed and APM skills first; then, when you start trying to improve your macro/micro/multitask, your muscle memory will kick in, and you'll be able to do macro/micro/multitask much quicker and much more efficiently than if you hadn't practiced raising your APM first.
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as many people have said already i think focusing on apm is a bad goal to set for oneself if you are trying to get better. If you instead focus on being more efficient with your time even an average apm player can get much higher in skill level. ie. instead of watching a battle or watching a building finish, go use that time to do something else.... this is easier said than done.. but i find the easiest way is to record a few fpvods of yourself..
if you study a vod you can really see patterns of when you are doing absolutely nothing useful then, in future, when this situation comes up you can focus on doing something else instead. Ya your micro might slip for a while, but as you practice the timings you will get better and better at multitasking.
if you are already doing this perfectly then all you have to do is focus more on accurate clicks which can be achieved with any of the ums training maps out there. Although, personally, I think this is a lot less important to increase than multitasking, or at least should be secondary to improving your multitasking and time efficiency
As a side note, I think people still focus too much on apm and even though they turn around to the next guy and say "apm means nothing" they will still go and try to improve their apm, neglecting time management and improving their basics.
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On September 16 2008 05:34 AlabasterFilth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2008 04:14 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
don't focus on your apm, that won't help you get better. focus on multitasking, macroing, microing etc. and force yourself to make use of every action. a high apm that is mostly spam has a lot of useless actions, and doesn't improve you at all. forcing yourself to set a faster pace and mentally remind yourself to do this or do that will help improve your pace in the game, which is much more important than caring about what apm you have. This has already been brought up countless times and rebutted countless times: 1) Yes, what you are saying is true for the short term; you will have useless actions, and you won't see immediate improvement. 2) However, in the long term, you will reap massive benefits (I know, I myself have improved a lot in just the last 2-3 months). Without training your muscle memory and mechanics, "forcing yourself to set a faster pace and mentally remind yourself to do this or do that", as you put it, will be fruitless. Train your hand-speed and APM skills first; then, when you start trying to improve your macro/micro/multitask, your muscle memory will kick in, and you'll be able to do macro/micro/multitask much quicker and much more efficiently than if you hadn't practiced raising your APM first.
Increasing handspeed and APM comes with playing fast, and you don't have to spam useless actions to attain it. Why focus on something that really has no meaning while you're playing; focus on playing faster and making every action count. Starcraft is a fast paced game, so play that way, but don't play ineffciently by only trying to raise your APM.
I had a teammate that I played with for a couple of years and that is how we trained in our practice games, we forced ourselves to play as fast as we could and making sure we focused on the right things. We became faster, thus our APM went up, but that didn't mean anything, what was important was increasing our pace during our games which allowed for better micro/macro/multitasking. Just spamming and trying to reach a high apm will probably make you faster in some ways, but I don't see it as an efficient way to play better.
But if you want to spam and focus on just raising APM, go ahead, do whatever you think will work best for you, I just don't see it as an efficient way to get better.
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This is not really that much on topic, but I just played a terran on python and thought I'd share it with you.
He didnt block his ramp, so I 2 gated him, and killed a bunch of svc's, and thought I had a pretty good lead.
The game went really long, and eventually he pretty much owned the shit out of me, but check his apm?
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=6383
I feel like quitting sc after this.
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i lost to a 50 apm toss before
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On September 18 2008 06:24 Epicfailguy wrote:This is not really that much on topic, but I just played a terran on python and thought I'd share it with you. He didnt block his ramp, so I 2 gated him, and killed a bunch of svc's, and thought I had a pretty good lead. The game went really long, and eventually he pretty much owned the shit out of me, but check his apm? http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=6383I feel like quitting sc after this.
Since your APM was just a little higher than his, what's your point?
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On September 20 2008 21:11 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
i lost to a 50 apm toss before
Dt rush? 
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plz god let the apm threads die once and for all...... ><
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On September 18 2008 06:24 Epicfailguy wrote:This is not really that much on topic, but I just played a terran on python and thought I'd share it with you. He didnt block his ramp, so I 2 gated him, and killed a bunch of svc's, and thought I had a pretty good lead. The game went really long, and eventually he pretty much owned the shit out of me, but check his apm? http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=6383I feel like quitting sc after this.
Apms of 120 and 80 can be considered pretty close.
I watched the game, my thoughts:
Your first zealot was mostly chasing the SCV making his factory, not hitting it a lot, you want to try to predict the SCV's movement and not just rightclick it. Later zealots managed to get a lot of SCVs until his vultures ended the party. You were ahead at this point.
You then decided to push your luck and attack with another group of Zealots, while you knew he had Vultures. He made the mistake of letting them into his min line so you killed even more SCVs. He could have easily blocked his ramp especially since his scouting marine crossed the path of your zealots.
Because of your late Core your goons and obs were pretty late, allowing him to contain you with mines and a few tanks, 2 at first. Losing your shuttle to a turret did not help here. When you finally broke out, some of your goons got stuck on that cute pylon block you made, they also clumped too much making you lose more units than you should have lost.
With his push dead, you fail to attack him, even though he has nothing but 2 tanks sieged in front of his nat in the open, with reinforcements building. With better scouting, you would have seen he was wide open and most likely destroy his nat, maybe even win right there. At the very least you could have set up a contain at his choke to take map control.
Even without an army he still takes the 6 main and natural without opposition, he also has the min only between 9 and 6. You then let him split the map(python) even though you had nearly double his supply for a long time. You really don't want Terran to expand freely, force him to siege/unsiege to get a 3rd base.
You mostly lost because you did not scout his army and expansions enough, Protoss has observers, (ab)use them. You want your obs to look for weak spots and see army movements. He was wide open for all sorts of harass, you just had to take the opportunity. He should not have gotten away with all those expansions.
One more thing: don't stasis the front tanks, stasis the tanks in the back so you take less fire while moving in to kill them.
In short:
-transition to goons asap after a 2 gate opening
-scout army and expansions so you know where and what to hit
-harass when you can
-stasis the tanks in the back, not the ones in front
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it doesnt really matter unless you have like 20 apm x_x
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On September 14 2008 12:49 eX-Corgh wrote:VAPM is an attempt to be a more useful speed indicator. Actions excluded from VAMP are such as spamming make a unit when you don't have enough resources/supply or ordering to construct a building then doing it again before the actual construction starts. EAMP is much more useful IMO. Its arguments are: Select without subsequent action Too close destination point Too fast repeating rate etc. This produces a rather accurate Effective APM number. The app to see your EAPM is called BWRepInfo. Unfortunately it is only for Windows Pros like Jaedong (350+ APM) have about 240 EAPM.
EAPM has some arguments that are useful but too close destination point that is what we call micro. Not everything is attack move that sorta micro is very useful in game and select without subsequent action i use that so often to check build times and hp of units. EAPM has points but i find most of them not valid. I mean common a zvz game is all close destination point micro and repetition.
I wish there was a thread that had a like learn how the pros micro then macro see them do something fpvod and get to see their hand a mouse movements to get a feel on their thought process. But that is probably some closely guarded south Korean secret.
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On September 21 2008 08:35 Dreadwave wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2008 06:24 Epicfailguy wrote:This is not really that much on topic, but I just played a terran on python and thought I'd share it with you. He didnt block his ramp, so I 2 gated him, and killed a bunch of svc's, and thought I had a pretty good lead. The game went really long, and eventually he pretty much owned the shit out of me, but check his apm? http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=6383I feel like quitting sc after this. Apms of 120 and 80 can be considered pretty close. I watched the game, my thoughts: Your first zealot was mostly chasing the SCV making his factory, not hitting it a lot, you want to try to predict the SCV's movement and not just rightclick it. Later zealots managed to get a lot of SCVs until his vultures ended the party. You were ahead at this point. You then decided to push your luck and attack with another group of Zealots, while you knew he had Vultures. He made the mistake of letting them into his min line so you killed even more SCVs. He could have easily blocked his ramp especially since his scouting marine crossed the path of your zealots. Because of your late Core your goons and obs were pretty late, allowing him to contain you with mines and a few tanks, 2 at first. Losing your shuttle to a turret did not help here. When you finally broke out, some of your goons got stuck on that cute pylon block you made, they also clumped too much making you lose more units than you should have lost. With his push dead, you fail to attack him, even though he has nothing but 2 tanks sieged in front of his nat in the open, with reinforcements building. With better scouting, you would have seen he was wide open and most likely destroy his nat, maybe even win right there. At the very least you could have set up a contain at his choke to take map control. Even without an army he still takes the 6 main and natural without opposition, he also has the min only between 9 and 6. You then let him split the map(python) even though you had nearly double his supply for a long time. You really don't want Terran to expand freely, force him to siege/unsiege to get a 3rd base. You mostly lost because you did not scout his army and expansions enough, Protoss has observers, (ab)use them. You want your obs to look for weak spots and see army movements. He was wide open for all sorts of harass, you just had to take the opportunity. He should not have gotten away with all those expansions. One more thing: don't stasis the front tanks, stasis the tanks in the back so you take less fire while moving in to kill them. In short: -transition to goons asap after a 2 gate opening -scout army and expansions so you know where and what to hit -harass when you can -stasis the tanks in the back, not the ones in front
Thanks a bunch man 
When I saw the replay, I thought the same, if I just had scouted more :/
I know about the stasis thing, but often theres a lot of more clumped units in the front, so I dont know..sometimes it can be worth it, instead of just getting one or maby two tanks in the back..sometimes not.
Anyway, thanks for the help.
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EPT
