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Watching recent ZvP, it seems like there are some things zerg can perhaps do differently.
Queens Nest + Hive = 113 seconds build time (350 minerals/250 gas)
Spire + 5 Mutalisks = 100 seconds build time (700 minerals/650 gas)
If you skip Spire, you can have your Hive up in +13 seconds, with some resources to spare for upgrades which can prove very useful.
Also, on some maps where you can take a protected 4th, taking your 3rd and 4th hatchery before gas at those locations can be so fucking strong. It's literally 4 base before gas, all you have to do is survive any timing attacks and its ggs π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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On October 08 2025 05:40 perfectspheres wrote:
Watching recent ZvP, it seems like there are some things zerg can perhaps do differently.
Queens Nest + Hive = 113 seconds build time (350 minerals/250 gas)
Spire + 5 Mutalisks = 100 seconds build time (700 minerals/650 gas)
If you skip Spire, you can have your Hive up in +13 seconds, with some resources to spare for upgrades which can prove very useful.
Also, on some maps where you can take a protected 4th, taking your 3rd and 4th hatchery before gas at those locations can be so fucking strong. It's literally 4 base before gas, all you have to do is survive any timing attacks and its ggs π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
This is so wrong, why would you tech to hive? Mutalisks are rushed for map control. There isn't a unit quite like the mutalisk. Zerglings require macro hatch, hydralisks are explosive damage type. Mutalisks are small units with normal damage type, just like zerglings. Zerg trajectory goes from zerglings to mutalisks. If you want to go hydralisks, you'll have to buffer them with some other unit, one of the above.
Watch shine vs light on roaring currents. Shine drops hydralisks using mutalisks as aggro cover. Just 1 mutalisk can increase the survivability of a dozen hydralisks.
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On October 06 2025 11:56 perfectspheres wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2025 04:14 Ze'ev wrote:
The thing that I find interesting about the modern meta is: for a long time there was a trend towards faster and faster macro play, which meant a level of passivity. And now a days thats been perfected but combined with very aggressive cheese or mid game timings. Its kind of like an ouroboros. All the macro insights have met back up with the previous meta of mid game timings and early game aggression, and now we have both! This is the most aggressive era of broodwar i've seen in years and years.
Edit: I love Bishops tvz btw, what a fucking joy to watch. Haven't seen a whole lot of Bishop play, or maybe we just dont remember π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ But yeah, as for the modern Brood War professional scene...it seems like the competition is extremely tough. Some of the better players have approximately 60% win rates in some matchups. For an extremely skill based game that is pretty crazy. You can find some games on artosis casts on youtube.
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Just watched Queen vs. Barracks on the ArtosisCasts youtube channel.
Man was that an incredible game.
Barracks went +1 4 rax, nailed their build order...moved out and crushed Queen's early 3rd. gg.
Games like that are such a get off for us. Executing your build to just about perfection, 11 minute game...ez pz get em out of here.
You don't know how good winning a bunch of games like that in a row feels like.
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On October 08 2025 23:22 Ze'ev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2025 11:56 perfectspheres wrote:On October 06 2025 04:14 Ze'ev wrote:
The thing that I find interesting about the modern meta is: for a long time there was a trend towards faster and faster macro play, which meant a level of passivity. And now a days thats been perfected but combined with very aggressive cheese or mid game timings. Its kind of like an ouroboros. All the macro insights have met back up with the previous meta of mid game timings and early game aggression, and now we have both! This is the most aggressive era of broodwar i've seen in years and years.
Edit: I love Bishops tvz btw, what a fucking joy to watch. Haven't seen a whole lot of Bishop play, or maybe we just dont remember π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ But yeah, as for the modern Brood War professional scene...it seems like the competition is extremely tough. Some of the better players have approximately 60% win rates in some matchups. For an extremely skill based game that is pretty crazy. You can find some games on artosis casts on youtube.
Yeah, watch Artosiscasts pretty frequently. Pretty sure we have seen them play...must just not remember π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ
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Just watched the Queen vs Barracks, game 3 on the Artosiscasts youtube channel titled "Get those missile turrets!".
Queen opened overpool, Barracks opened with a standard wall at their natural, moved out with some of their early marines...and lost them.
Their CC was late, 2nd barracks and academy were late...Queen attacked with mutalisks-->gg.
Kind of whatever game π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
Talked about the Light game where they moved out with early marine pressure and did some drone damage, then cruised to an easy win...but that was in close positions. This was cross spawns.
Was thinking about whether early marine (before CC) pressure is smart/effective/viable/...and it probably is if you kill any drones, and force the zerg to build zerglings early on. Probably depends on what zerg chooses to follow up with though.
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Havent watched any Brood War the last day or so, interested in watching some ZvT where zerg > 2rax acad and +1 builds.
Also would like to see some mech TvZ, but it seems professional players have trended away from mech play because fac cc and rax cc builds are not optimal vs 2 hatch plays. They have apparently forgotten about 2 factory builds π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ
Did see Light have some success against Soulkey with fac-starport-cc, but they only had like 1 valkyrie and 2 turrets at their main when mutalisks arrived.
They defended the mutas alright, but when they got to 4 base, they tried to take a 5th off only 5 factories. They barely couldnt defend Soulkey's pressure...gg.
Would encourage any starting Terran players to watch "Stylish fpvods" if you can find them on youtube. They were very helpful for us many years ago, and there are still some concepts which can be applied today.
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Watched Flash vs Jaedong from the 2009 NATE MSL, game 3 (power outage game).
Flash opened 1 rax cc (2 depot before cc variant) with a wall at their natural. Jaedong opened with a 3 hatchery play.
After losing a few of his early armies, Flash went up to 8 barracks off of 2 base, and moved out with a huge medic marine force.
Flash took down Jaedong's 3rd base, but JD had another one already up (not mining).
Eventually, Jaedong got their 4th base (double gas) going, Flash got their 3rd (mineral only) up around 18 minutes, moved out and tried to take Jaedong's 3rd down...but was held off by defilers/ultralisks. The power in the building then went out.
KeSPA awarded the game to Jaedong, deciding that Jaedong was at an advantage, and that it would have been unfair to replay the game.
Jaedong was on 4 base (1 was a double gas base) against Flash's 3 base (1 mineral only)...with defilers/ultras in close proximity to Flash's mineral only, which had just started to mine.
In our opinion it was the correct ruling, very professional from KeSPA. We are not perfect by any means, but that kind of thing is always appreciated π―π―
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Just watched Effort vs Royal on the Falcon Paladin youtube channel titled "QUEENS? MECH BRO!..."
Royal opened 1 rax cc (2 supply variant) into mech. Effort opened 2.5 hatchery.
Royal decided to go for the double armory play, and as a result was a little light on units going into the midgame.
After a few trades, and Royal getting their 3rd base up...they went for a base trade and Effort came out on top, gg.
Rax cc --> mech ("delayed mech"), is already somewhat low on troops...but the double armory, in addition to only having 1 scv mining gas at their natural for decent amount of time seemed to have done Royal in.
If Royal had not made those 2 "mistakes", in addition to having a slightly different unit composition...perhaps this game could have turned out differently π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut.
Would do an analysis of those games if we could...tried finding some of those games on youtube/the small VOD thread and couldn't π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ
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Made this thread mostly to have a place to put our Brood War
observations/thoughts on the games we watch. Holding things in is not healthy most of the time.
Didn't really make it for anyone else, and was thinking of just writing them down on notepad or whatever...but felt this was a better place for them.
Apologies if we missed your comments, once again we weren't really making this thread for anyone else...but if you have any requests for games you would like an analysis done of, don't hesistate to drop us a link and we'd be glad to do it.
Thanks π«
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On October 08 2025 06:41 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2025 05:40 perfectspheres wrote:
Watching recent ZvP, it seems like there are some things zerg can perhaps do differently.
Queens Nest + Hive = 113 seconds build time (350 minerals/250 gas)
Spire + 5 Mutalisks = 100 seconds build time (700 minerals/650 gas)
If you skip Spire, you can have your Hive up in +13 seconds, with some resources to spare for upgrades which can prove very useful.
Also, on some maps where you can take a protected 4th, taking your 3rd and 4th hatchery before gas at those locations can be so fucking strong. It's literally 4 base before gas, all you have to do is survive any timing attacks and its ggs π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ This is so wrong, why would you tech to hive? Mutalisks are rushed for map control. There isn't a unit quite like the mutalisk. Zerglings require macro hatch, hydralisks are explosive damage type. Mutalisks are small units with normal damage type, just like zerglings. Zerg trajectory goes from zerglings to mutalisks. If you want to go hydralisks, you'll have to buffer them with some other unit, one of the above. Watch shine vs light on roaring currents. Shine drops hydralisks using mutalisks as aggro cover. Just 1 mutalisk can increase the survivability of a dozen hydralisks.
Actually not.
Saying Zerg trajectory goes from lings --> mutalisks would be quite incorrect, especially in ZvP.
A lot of times just scourge are built with the common/standard 3 hatch spire --> 5/6 hatch hydra build.
With 3/4 hatch hydra, you go from lings straight to hydralisks.
We have already made our argument that mutalisks are cost inefficient vs protoss, and that the resources would probably be better used on upgrades + economy + high DPS/strong units like zerglings/hydras/ultras/defilers.
In this instance we are probably just going to have to agree to disagree π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched a Flash vs Stork game on the NamKraft youtube channel titled "Laddernet 2025.10 Flash vs Stork TvP @ Roaring Current..."
Stork opened 12 nex, Flash apparently read their mind and opened 13 cc.
Flash then proceeded to throw away their scouting SCV to a few probes before seeing the protoss tech path (core wasn't finished and no dragoons were out).
Stork proceeded to put their 3rd base down at 4:00, got carriers up while Flash went up to 4 base...gg.
It seems Flash's just assumed they were at a decisive advantage from their 13cc, which proved not to be the case.
It's tough seeing players who were once top level become lackadaisical, and have weaknesses in their play blatantly apparent.
In this case it seems overconfidence/lack of attention to detail did Flash in (again). It no longer seems they are the best player in the Brood War scene π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched the game titled "FlaSh uses the most OBSCURE build vs Zerg" on the Artosiscasts youtube channel.
Flash opened 2 factory mech (w/ ebay block) vs Larva's 2.5 hatch play. They got their expo up, a starport before 3rd factory, and finally went to 6 factories as they get their 3rd CC ready to mine.
Didn't agree with them throwing away their vultures on a runby, but otherwise looked like an immaculately played game. They hit with a timing attack before Larva's queens could reach the energy for Broodlings...gg.
Been saying that mech could be the move TvZ, but havent seen it a whole lot recently.
Would like to see more play like this, 12:40 game...zerg was on the back foot the whole time. Superb. 12/10 π―π―
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Just watched the Queen vs Barracks game titled "Laddernet 2025.10 Barracks vs Queen TvZ @ Dominator..." on the NamKraft youtube channel.
12 hatch from Queen, 1 rax cc (2 supply variant) --> 2 rax academy from Barracks.
Barracks moved out with about 9 marines, 1 firebat, and 2 medics...hit Queen's natural right before mutas popped...did significant damage, and Queen was never able to recover. gg.
Queen went 2.5 hatch (not the early 3rd base variant), and perhaps could have kept better track of the Terran army movement...but even after being at a disadvantage they continued to fight as hard as possible to come back and win.
Seen Flash gg early in a few games recently, as if gg'ing early proves your insane knowledge of the game.
From our perspective, even if you win 1 game out of 9,000,000,000 by fighting on, it is worth it for us π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched the game titled "Are Carriers making a comeback in the Meta-Game?" on the ArtosisCasts youtube channel.
Royal vs Rich, TvP.
Royal opened 11fac-->cc.
Rich opened 12nex double gateway variation.
Pretty standard game, Royal got their 3rd up while Rich was still on 3 base as well...but seemed to make a bit of a mistake with their army composition being too light on vultures. Their first push got cleaned up, Rich had carriers --> gg.
Not much to say about this game other than noticing Terrans seems to be favoring tanks a bit too heavily. Many times it seems the vulture heavy compositions do a lot better vs Protoss.
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I'm also getting major AI vibes from this guy. Maybe one of those weirdos from artosis chat? The emojis, the out of place use of they and us. Maybe he uses it just to craft the text?
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On October 22 2025 16:45 Navane wrote:
I'm also getting major AI vibes from this guy. Maybe one of those weirdos from artosis chat? The emojis, the out of place use of they and us. Maybe he uses it just to craft the text?
Naw I'm leaning closer to dissociative identity disorder, or what self-diagnosing terminally online people call being "plural".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plurality_(identity)
If you look at the emoji, it's always one man one woman. If you look at their Instagram/Facebook posts, they are constantly posting as if the account is a mix of activity between two distinct, named people. However, we never see photos of them together, nor are the photos of the women on Instagram consistent; they seem to be more like attempts to embody or visualize that second part of their plural system. Their writing style also doesn't actually change all that much, either. Furthermore, their name is consistently perfectspheres, again implying plurality. However, I will admit that the variety of other random shit on their FB/Instagram makes it hard to be certain of anything.
Anyway, I interpret it as "we" being used to refer to the individual members of the plural system agreeing with one another about some statement. So, "probably not" to AI vibes, but "yes" to the TL BW section becoming a hotbed of mental illness, trolling, and very imaginative noob threads as of late (though it's kinda hard to tell schizoposting from intentional ARG, tbf).
Share your opinion on the trend here!
https://tl.net/forum/website-feedback/642231-sad-state-of-bw-strategy
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On October 22 2025 16:45 Navane wrote:
I'm also getting major AI vibes from this guy. Maybe one of those weirdos from artosis chat? The emojis, the out of place use of they and us. Maybe he uses it just to craft the text?
Most definitely not AI or a guy.
Pretty sure saying "I" is much more out of line than "us/them".
I = me/myself...if you think you can do things by yourself, or are doing things by yourself we wish you luck in your quest π―π―
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On October 22 2025 23:35 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2025 16:45 Navane wrote:
I'm also getting major AI vibes from this guy. Maybe one of those weirdos from artosis chat? The emojis, the out of place use of they and us. Maybe he uses it just to craft the text? Naw I'm leaning closer to dissociative identity disorder, or what self-diagnosing terminally online people call being "plural". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plurality_(identity)If you look at the emoji, it's always one man one woman. If you look at their Instagram/Facebook posts, they are constantly posting as if the account is a mix of activity between two distinct, named people. However, we never see photos of them together, nor are the photos of the women on Instagram consistent; they seem to be more like attempts to embody or visualize that second part of their plural system. Their writing style also doesn't actually change all that much, either. Furthermore, their name is consistently perfectsphere s, again implying plurality. However, I will admit that the variety of other random shit on their FB/Instagram makes it hard to be certain of anything. Anyway, I interpret it as "we" being used to refer to the individual members of the plural system agreeing with one another about some statement. So, "probably not" to AI vibes, but "yes" to the TL BW section becoming a hotbed of mental illness, trolling, and very imaginative noob threads as of late (though it's kinda hard to tell schizoposting from intentional ARG, tbf). Share your opinion on the trend here! https://tl.net/forum/website-feedback/642231-sad-state-of-bw-strategy
Once again, I = me/myself.
Thinking you are doing things by yourself would seem more like a mental illness to us.
This thread is for talking about the highest levels of the professional BW meta.
Not here to advertise, if you would like more information on the what "we" are subject, you can check out the website listed on our signature.
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EPT
