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Brood War is so fucking cool.
Remember first getting the original Starcraft when it first came out in 1998. That shit was so dope. Learning the game, playing the single player campaigns, then playing LAN games with friends/games on battle.net.
On battlenet, some people at the time we playing on 56k modems/internet. That means up to 56kpbs internet. To be able to play a complex multiplayer online game with the hardware at the time, and that kind of internet...the coding of the game has to be pretty leet.
Fast forward to today, almost 26 years later...and to have the game still being played at a high level is so cool.
Don't play anymore for various reasons, but love watching replays on youtube and seeing all the optimizations in strategy players are doing these days.
Saw a recent PvZ game from Bisu where they went gateway expand into core before forge, got their tech up quickly, and powered super hard into the midgame -> gg.
Saw another game from Light TvZ where they opened 1raxcc (19 supply variant?), attacked with an scv and their first few marines to kill a few drones/force the zerg to waste some of their early larvae on zerglings...then followed up with the classic 3 tank 1 vessel push -> gg. 10 minute game, 1 rax CC, ez pz get em out of here.
It's kind of a get off for us seeing optimal high level play, and as good as these players are...the meta is still evolving, and there are probably things that could be optimized in terms of strategy in each matchup.
Anyway, tldr; Brood War is epic...SC2 sucks. Was on this site about 20 years ago in the live reports for the (first) golden age of Brood War, the OSL/MSL finals, winners league etc. Was looking for somewhere to talk about Starcraft/Brood War...good to see you guys are still around.
Might be posting in this thread with some of our observations from recent games. Take it easy 😎
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Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps.
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On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps.
Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran".
Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy 🤷♂️🤷♀️).
You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships.
They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently.
Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders.
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On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy 🤷♂️🤷♀️). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders.
You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above.
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On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy 🤷♂️🤷♀️). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above.
Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it.
But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times.
They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents).
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On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy 🤷♂️🤷♀️). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents).
There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut.
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On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy 🤷♂️🤷♀️). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut.
Perhaps we will check some of those out later, appreciate it.
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Just watched the recent Flash vs Larva game on Artosiscasts titled "FlaSh's Mass Marines!"...
Artosis apologized for a "disappointing game" at the end of the video, but for us this was excellent.
Larva went standard 12 hatch -> 2.5 hatch -> started their 3rd base (4th hatchery) at around 5:27. Looked like they nailed their build order.
Flash did a standard 1 rax cc (15cc variant) with semi-wall (not ling tight) at their natural.
They decided to go +1 5 rax, moved out around 6:25 and got to Larva's natural around 7:18.
Larva cleaned up the attack, but was down about 20 supply and chose to gg.
They maybe could have gone for a base trade, or continued to fight on...but apparently felt they were at a decisive disadvantage/did not want to play anymore. ggs.
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On September 28 2025 18:10 perfectspheres wrote:
Just watched the recent Flash vs Larva game on Artosiscasts titled "FlaSh's Mass Marines!"...
Artosis apologized for a "disappointing game" at the end of the video, but for us this was excellent.
Larva went standard 12 hatch -> 2.5 hatch -> started their 3rd base (4th hatchery) at around 5:27. Looked like they nailed their build order.
Flash did a standard 1 rax cc (15cc variant) with semi-wall (not ling tight) at their natural.
They decided to go +1 5 rax, moved out around 6:25 and got to Larva's natural around 7:18.
Larva cleaned up the attack, but was down about 20 supply and chose to gg.
They maybe could have gone for a base trade, or continued to fight on...but apparently felt they were at a decisive disadvantage/did not want to play anymore. ggs.
It seems like zerg has to do something different strategically to consistently beat terran.
Whether it is varying their build orders, keeping terran in the dark, sacrificing some of their early economy for an army/tech advantage -> using that to take map control and leapfrog the terran economically towards the mid/late game, some sort of innovation/creativity seems necessary...at least at the very high levels.
Just hoping to execute 1 build order vs the variety of openings terran has at their disposal seems futile 🤷♂️🤷♀️
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Watched Light vs Soma, winners match game 2 from the ASL S20 ro16 on the StarCastTV English youtube channel.
Light opened 1 rax CC, with their first depot going down at 120 minerals. After their depot completed (10 supply), they went straight into barracks instead of scv production.
Soma went standard 2 hatch -> early third, dived in with their mutas around 6:40 and sunkened up their natural.
Light chose to counter-attack, got to the zergs natural, then tried to retreat and defend. Soma did significant damage with their mutas, and after looking a bit indecisive, Light attacked Soma's heavily sunkened natural and gged.
Looked like pretty standard stuff from both players. Usually 2 rax acad > 2 hatch early 3rd, but in this case it seems Light made a bad choice blindly deciding to counter Soma's natural.
Perhaps with better scouting this game could have turned out differently.
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On September 29 2025 10:28 perfectspheres wrote:
Watched Light vs Soma, winners match game 2 from the ASL S20 ro16 on the StarCastTV English youtube channel.
Light opened 1 rax CC, with their first depot going down at 120 minerals. After their depot completed (10 supply), they went straight into barracks instead of scv production.
Soma went standard 2 hatch -> early third, dived in with their mutas around 6:40 and sunkened up their natural.
Light chose to counter-attack, got to the zergs natural, then tried to retreat and defend. Soma did significant damage with their mutas, and after looking a bit indecisive, Light attacked Soma's heavily sunkened natural and gged.
Looked like pretty standard stuff from both players. Usually 2 rax acad > 2 hatch early 3rd, but in this case it seems Light made a bad choice blindly deciding to counter Soma's natural.
Perhaps with better scouting this game could have turned out differently.
Isn't it normal SK Terran to go punish a zerg base if they threaten a muta rush? If anything, Light pulling back is the error, not pushing forward. You cannot back down from a base trade with SK Terran. I agree Light isn't decisive enough in his games with some of the players. I guess that is expected. Starcraft is realtime strategy and soma is bending the rules being able to mineral boost. I said before if you stay at 9 AND mineral boost, instead of 12 and not boost, you literally gain 45 seconds advantage instead of falling behind.
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On September 30 2025 02:30 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2025 10:28 perfectspheres wrote:
Watched Light vs Soma, winners match game 2 from the ASL S20 ro16 on the StarCastTV English youtube channel.
Light opened 1 rax CC, with their first depot going down at 120 minerals. After their depot completed (10 supply), they went straight into barracks instead of scv production.
Soma went standard 2 hatch -> early third, dived in with their mutas around 6:40 and sunkened up their natural.
Light chose to counter-attack, got to the zergs natural, then tried to retreat and defend. Soma did significant damage with their mutas, and after looking a bit indecisive, Light attacked Soma's heavily sunkened natural and gged.
Looked like pretty standard stuff from both players. Usually 2 rax acad > 2 hatch early 3rd, but in this case it seems Light made a bad choice blindly deciding to counter Soma's natural.
Perhaps with better scouting this game could have turned out differently. Isn't it normal SK Terran to go punish a zerg base if they threaten a muta rush? If anything, Light pulling back is the error, not pushing forward. You cannot back down from a base trade with SK Terran. I agree Light isn't decisive enough in his games with some of the players. I guess that is expected. Starcraft is realtime strategy and soma is bending the rules being able to mineral boost. I said before if you stay at 9 AND mineral boost, instead of 12 and not boost, you literally gain 45 seconds advantage instead of falling behind.
From what we've seen, usually with 2rax academy you try and punish early 3rd bases from zerg.
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Watched games 1-3 of the recent ASL ro8, Soma vs Best on the Starcast TV English youtube channel.
In game 1, Best opened with an in-base 2 gate, killed a few drones and it was basically gg. Soma was down to something like 6 drones vs Best's fully saturated main.
Not sure why we don't see more 2 gate plays PvZ. Offracing zerg, it gives us problems when opening overpool...you just dont seem to have the larva to keep up constant zergling production and keep pace with the protoss economically.
In game 2, Best opened forge-->nexus-->gateway-->gateway, got 3 hatch hydra busted, gg.
Game 3 Best went gateway-nexus-core before forge and steamrolled after getting on 3 base vs 3 base.
In game 3, saw Soma use lurkers, and was thinking how cost inefficient they are (at least in ZvP). Realized that being cost efficient in Brood War is part of highly optimized play.
Was intending to keep this thread going with thoughts on the current (still evolving) metagame in Brood War, but that aspect of the game is not really vibing with us at the moment, as money is actually nothing.
Like we said in the opening post, have been on TL.net since the golden age of Brood War, (OSL/MSL/Winners League/KeSPA days). May or may not continue to post on here.
If you don't see us around, just know its not because of anything you did.
Appreciate all of you who have contributed to making this site, community, and TeamLiquid what they are today (even the trolls and haters).
Take it easy, hopefully see you guys around 🫡
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okay hello.
thought about the money/currency subject, and yes it is most definitely nothing...but that doesn't mean you just throw it away.
In Brood War, 4 lurkers is 500minerals/500gas (1000 "total resources", not counting the production time).
That is a lot of resources that could be better spent on more cost efficient/effective units.
10 Zerglings is 250 minerals (250 "total resources"), 1 lurker is 125/125 (250 "total resources").
10 zerglings = 350 hp, 50 damage per hit and a significantly faster attack speed than lurkers.
1 lurker = 125 hp, 20 damage per hit...and a slower attack speed.
In our opinion lurkers are not a cost efficient or intelligent use of resources (at least vs protoss) 🤷♂️🤷♀️
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...also just watched Larva vs Speed losers match game 1 from the recent ASL ro16 on the "Starcast TV English" youtube channel.
Speed opened 1rax cc (17 supply cc variant?)...into 2 factory "delayed mech".
Larva went overpool --> gas --> hatchery into fast 2 hatch mutalisks. Their mutas arrived at Speed's base at around 5:44, Speed did not have sufficient defense. gg.
"Delayed mech" (1rax cc --> mech) doesn't seem to be great against 2 hatch plays. It seems you dont have the time for much vulture production before mutalisks are out...and you wind up giving the zerg too much of an army advantage/map control towards the midgame.
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The thing that I find interesting about the modern meta is: for a long time there was a trend towards faster and faster macro play, which meant a level of passivity. And now a days thats been perfected but combined with very aggressive cheese or mid game timings. Its kind of like an ouroboros. All the macro insights have met back up with the previous meta of mid game timings and early game aggression, and now we have both! This is the most aggressive era of broodwar i've seen in years and years.
Edit: I love Bishops tvz btw, what a fucking joy to watch.
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On October 06 2025 04:14 Ze'ev wrote:
The thing that I find interesting about the modern meta is: for a long time there was a trend towards faster and faster macro play, which meant a level of passivity. And now a days thats been perfected but combined with very aggressive cheese or mid game timings. Its kind of like an ouroboros. All the macro insights have met back up with the previous meta of mid game timings and early game aggression, and now we have both! This is the most aggressive era of broodwar i've seen in years and years.
Edit: I love Bishops tvz btw, what a fucking joy to watch.
Haven't seen a whole lot of Bishop play, or maybe we just dont remember 🤷♂️🤷♀️
But yeah, as for the modern Brood War professional scene...it seems like the competition is extremely tough. Some of the better players have approximately 60% win rates in some matchups.
For an extremely skill based game that is pretty crazy.
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Just watched "2025.10 Flash vs Stork TvP @ Metropolis" on the NamKraft youtube channel.
Flash opened 1 fac cc vs Stork's gateway-->core-->goon-->expand.
Looked like Flash was in good position, but Stork built a Stargate while on 2 base (and harassing with reaver)...then got a 3rd and added their 2nd stargate and Fleet beacon.
Flash moved out and took a 3rd, Stork took a 4th...attacked with carriers and goons --> gg.
Extremely clever build by Stork. Flash seemed to assume they were playing against themself or that their opponent was an F ranker.
Once again it seems like Flash's overconfidence was his downfall (in addition to a very well thought out and excellently executed build by Stork).
Immensely entertertaining and high level game. 12/10.
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On October 04 2025 11:24 perfectspheres wrote:
okay hello.
thought about the money/currency subject, and yes it is most definitely nothing...but that doesn't mean you just throw it away.
In Brood War, 4 lurkers is 500minerals/500gas (1000 "total resources", not counting the production time).
That is a lot of resources that could be better spent on more cost efficient/effective units.
10 Zerglings is 250 minerals (250 "total resources"), 1 lurker is 125/125 (250 "total resources").
10 zerglings = 350 hp, 50 damage per hit and a significantly faster attack speed than lurkers.
1 lurker = 125 hp, 20 damage per hit...and a slower attack speed.
In our opinion lurkers are not a cost efficient or intelligent use of resources (at least vs protoss) 🤷♂️🤷♀️
I'm 90% sure this is an AI account. Btw your resource count is wrong. 4 lurkers are 600/500 including the overlord. I guess you are good with probing right answers with wrong baits.
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On October 06 2025 19:41 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2025 11:24 perfectspheres wrote:
okay hello.
thought about the money/currency subject, and yes it is most definitely nothing...but that doesn't mean you just throw it away.
In Brood War, 4 lurkers is 500minerals/500gas (1000 "total resources", not counting the production time).
That is a lot of resources that could be better spent on more cost efficient/effective units.
10 Zerglings is 250 minerals (250 "total resources"), 1 lurker is 125/125 (250 "total resources").
10 zerglings = 350 hp, 50 damage per hit and a significantly faster attack speed than lurkers.
1 lurker = 125 hp, 20 damage per hit...and a slower attack speed.
In our opinion lurkers are not a cost efficient or intelligent use of resources (at least vs protoss) 🤷♂️🤷♀️ I'm 90% sure this is an AI account. Btw your resource count is wrong. 4 lurkers are 600/500 including the overlord. I guess you are good with probing right answers with wrong baits.
Uh we're not AI dude.
Did we say 4 lurkers and an overlord? No. We said 4 lurkers...which most definitely and definitively cost 500/500.
But yes, there is the supply value and the production time you have to worry about as well.
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Watching recent ZvP, it seems like there are some things zerg can perhaps do differently.
Queens Nest + Hive = 113 seconds build time (350 minerals/250 gas)
Spire + 5 Mutalisks = 100 seconds build time (700 minerals/650 gas)
If you skip Spire, you can have your Hive up in +13 seconds, with some resources to spare for upgrades which can prove very useful.
Also, on some maps where you can take a protected 4th, taking your 3rd and 4th hatchery before gas at those locations can be so fucking strong. It's literally 4 base before gas, all you have to do is survive any timing attacks and its ggs 🤷♂️🤷♀️
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On October 08 2025 05:40 perfectspheres wrote:
Watching recent ZvP, it seems like there are some things zerg can perhaps do differently.
Queens Nest + Hive = 113 seconds build time (350 minerals/250 gas)
Spire + 5 Mutalisks = 100 seconds build time (700 minerals/650 gas)
If you skip Spire, you can have your Hive up in +13 seconds, with some resources to spare for upgrades which can prove very useful.
Also, on some maps where you can take a protected 4th, taking your 3rd and 4th hatchery before gas at those locations can be so fucking strong. It's literally 4 base before gas, all you have to do is survive any timing attacks and its ggs 🤷♂️🤷♀️
This is so wrong, why would you tech to hive? Mutalisks are rushed for map control. There isn't a unit quite like the mutalisk. Zerglings require macro hatch, hydralisks are explosive damage type. Mutalisks are small units with normal damage type, just like zerglings. Zerg trajectory goes from zerglings to mutalisks. If you want to go hydralisks, you'll have to buffer them with some other unit, one of the above.
Watch shine vs light on roaring currents. Shine drops hydralisks using mutalisks as aggro cover. Just 1 mutalisk can increase the survivability of a dozen hydralisks.
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On October 06 2025 11:56 perfectspheres wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2025 04:14 Ze'ev wrote:
The thing that I find interesting about the modern meta is: for a long time there was a trend towards faster and faster macro play, which meant a level of passivity. And now a days thats been perfected but combined with very aggressive cheese or mid game timings. Its kind of like an ouroboros. All the macro insights have met back up with the previous meta of mid game timings and early game aggression, and now we have both! This is the most aggressive era of broodwar i've seen in years and years.
Edit: I love Bishops tvz btw, what a fucking joy to watch. Haven't seen a whole lot of Bishop play, or maybe we just dont remember 🤷♂️🤷♀️ But yeah, as for the modern Brood War professional scene...it seems like the competition is extremely tough. Some of the better players have approximately 60% win rates in some matchups. For an extremely skill based game that is pretty crazy. You can find some games on artosis casts on youtube.
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Just watched Queen vs. Barracks on the ArtosisCasts youtube channel.
Man was that an incredible game.
Barracks went +1 4 rax, nailed their build order...moved out and crushed Queen's early 3rd. gg.
Games like that are such a get off for us. Executing your build to just about perfection, 11 minute game...ez pz get em out of here.
You don't know how good winning a bunch of games like that in a row feels like.
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EPT
