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Brood War is so fucking cool.
We remember first getting the original Starcraft when it came out in 1998. That shit was so dope. Learning the game, playing the single player campaigns, then playing LAN games with friends/games on battle.net.
On battlenet, some people at the time were playing on 56k modems/internet. That means up to 56kpbs internet. To be able to play a complex multiplayer online game with the hardware at the time, and that kind of internet...the coding of the game has to be pretty leet.
Fast forward to today, almost 28 years later...and to have the game still being played at a high level is so cool.
Don't play anymore for various reasons, but love watching replays on youtube and seeing all the optimizations in strategy players are doing these days.
Saw a recent PvZ game from Bisu where they went gateway expand into core before forge, got their tech up quickly, and powered super hard into the midgame -> gg.
Saw another game from Light TvZ where they opened 1raxcc (19 supply variant?), attacked with an scv and their first few marines to kill a few drones/force the zerg to waste some of their early larvae on zerglings...then followed up with the classic 3 tank 1 vessel push -> gg. 10 minute game, 1 rax CC, ez pz get em out of here.
It's kind of a get off for us seeing optimal high level play, and as good as these players are...the meta is still evolving, and there are probably things that could be optimized in terms of strategy in each matchup.
Anyway, tldr; Brood War is epic...SC2 sucks. Was on this site about 20 years ago on the live reports for the (first) golden age of Brood War, the OSL/MSL finals, winners league etc. Was looking for somewhere to talk about Starcraft/Brood War...good to see you guys are still around.
Might be posting in this thread with some of our observations from recent games. Take it easy ππ
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Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps.
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On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps.
Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran".
Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ).
You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships.
They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently.
Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders.
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On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders.
You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above.
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On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above.
Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it.
But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times.
They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents).
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On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents).
There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut.
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On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut.
Perhaps we will check some of those out later, appreciate it.
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Just watched the recent Flash vs Larva game on Artosiscasts titled "FlaSh's Mass Marines!"...
Artosis apologized for a "disappointing game" at the end of the video, but for us this was excellent.
Larva went standard 12 hatch -> 2.5 hatch -> started their 3rd base (4th hatchery) at around 5:27. Looked like they nailed their build order.
Flash did a standard 1 rax cc (15cc variant) with semi-wall (not ling tight) at their natural.
They decided to go +1 5 rax, moved out around 6:25 and got to Larva's natural around 7:18.
Larva cleaned up the attack, but was down about 20 supply and chose to gg. They maybe could have gone for a base trade, or continued to fight on...but apparently felt they were at a decisive disadvantage/did not want to play anymore. ggs.
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On September 28 2025 18:10 perfectspheres wrote:
Just watched the recent Flash vs Larva game on Artosiscasts titled "FlaSh's Mass Marines!"...
Artosis apologized for a "disappointing game" at the end of the video, but for us this was excellent.
Larva went standard 12 hatch -> 2.5 hatch -> started their 3rd base (4th hatchery) at around 5:27. Looked like they nailed their build order.
Flash did a standard 1 rax cc (15cc variant) with semi-wall (not ling tight) at their natural.
They decided to go +1 5 rax, moved out around 6:25 and got to Larva's natural around 7:18.
Larva cleaned up the attack, but was down about 20 supply and chose to gg.
They maybe could have gone for a base trade, or continued to fight on...but apparently felt they were at a decisive disadvantage/did not want to play anymore. ggs.
It seems like zerg has to do something different strategically to consistently beat terran.
Whether it is varying their build orders, keeping terran in the dark, sacrificing some of their early economy for an army/tech advantage -> using that to take map control and leapfrog the terran economically towards the mid/late game, some sort of innovation/creativity seems necessary...at least at the very high levels.
Just hoping to execute 1 build order vs the variety of openings terran has at their disposal seems futile π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Watched Light vs Soma, winners match game 2 from the ASL S20 ro16 on the StarCastTV English youtube channel.
Light opened 1 rax CC, with their first depot going down at 120 minerals. After their depot completed (10 supply), they went straight into barracks instead of scv production.
Soma went standard 2 hatch -> early third, dived in with their mutas around 6:40 and sunkened up their natural.
Light chose to counter-attack, got to the zergs natural, then tried to retreat and defend. Soma did significant damage with their mutas, and after looking a bit indecisive, Light attacked Soma's heavily sunkened natural and gged.
Looked like pretty standard stuff from both players. Usually 2 rax acad > 2 hatch early 3rd, but in this case it seems Light made a bad choice blindly deciding to counter Soma's natural.
Perhaps with better scouting this game could have turned out differently.
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On September 29 2025 10:28 perfectspheres wrote:
Watched Light vs Soma, winners match game 2 from the ASL S20 ro16 on the StarCastTV English youtube channel.
Light opened 1 rax CC, with their first depot going down at 120 minerals. After their depot completed (10 supply), they went straight into barracks instead of scv production.
Soma went standard 2 hatch -> early third, dived in with their mutas around 6:40 and sunkened up their natural.
Light chose to counter-attack, got to the zergs natural, then tried to retreat and defend. Soma did significant damage with their mutas, and after looking a bit indecisive, Light attacked Soma's heavily sunkened natural and gged.
Looked like pretty standard stuff from both players. Usually 2 rax acad > 2 hatch early 3rd, but in this case it seems Light made a bad choice blindly deciding to counter Soma's natural.
Perhaps with better scouting this game could have turned out differently.
Isn't it normal SK Terran to go punish a zerg base if they threaten a muta rush? If anything, Light pulling back is the error, not pushing forward. You cannot back down from a base trade with SK Terran. I agree Light isn't decisive enough in his games with some of the players. I guess that is expected. Starcraft is realtime strategy and soma is bending the rules being able to mineral boost. I said before if you stay at 9 AND mineral boost, instead of 12 and not boost, you literally gain 45 seconds advantage instead of falling behind.
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On September 30 2025 02:30 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2025 10:28 perfectspheres wrote:
Watched Light vs Soma, winners match game 2 from the ASL S20 ro16 on the StarCastTV English youtube channel.
Light opened 1 rax CC, with their first depot going down at 120 minerals. After their depot completed (10 supply), they went straight into barracks instead of scv production.
Soma went standard 2 hatch -> early third, dived in with their mutas around 6:40 and sunkened up their natural.
Light chose to counter-attack, got to the zergs natural, then tried to retreat and defend. Soma did significant damage with their mutas, and after looking a bit indecisive, Light attacked Soma's heavily sunkened natural and gged.
Looked like pretty standard stuff from both players. Usually 2 rax acad > 2 hatch early 3rd, but in this case it seems Light made a bad choice blindly deciding to counter Soma's natural.
Perhaps with better scouting this game could have turned out differently. Isn't it normal SK Terran to go punish a zerg base if they threaten a muta rush? If anything, Light pulling back is the error, not pushing forward. You cannot back down from a base trade with SK Terran. I agree Light isn't decisive enough in his games with some of the players. I guess that is expected. Starcraft is realtime strategy and soma is bending the rules being able to mineral boost. I said before if you stay at 9 AND mineral boost, instead of 12 and not boost, you literally gain 45 seconds advantage instead of falling behind.
From what we've seen, usually with 2rax academy you try and punish/take down early 3rd bases from zerg.
Attacking the natural instead of the 3rd seems like a mistake to us π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Watched games 1-3 of the recent ASL ro8, Soma vs Best on the Starcast TV English youtube channel.
In game 1, Best opened with an in-base 2 gate, killed a few drones and it was basically gg. Soma was down to something like 6 drones vs Best's fully saturated main.
Not sure why we don't see more 2 gate plays PvZ. Offracing zerg, it gives us problems when opening overpool...you just dont seem to have the larva to keep up constant zergling production and keep pace with the protoss economically.
In game 2, Best opened forge-->nexus-->gateway-->gateway, got 3 hatch hydra busted, gg.
Game 3 Best went gateway-nexus-core before forge and steamrolled after getting on 3 base vs 3 base.
In game 3, saw Soma use lurkers, and was thinking how cost inefficient they are (at least in ZvP). Realized that being cost efficient in Brood War is part of highly optimized play.
Was intending to keep this thread going with thoughts on the current (still evolving) metagame in Brood War, but that aspect of the game is not really vibing with us at the moment, as money is actually nothing.
Like we said in the opening post, have been on TL.net since the golden age of Brood War, (OSL/MSL/Winners League/KeSPA days). May or may not continue to post on here.
If you don't see us around, just know its not because of anything you did.
Appreciate all of you who have contributed to making this site, community, and TeamLiquid what they are today (even the trolls and haters).
Take it easy, hopefully see you guys around π«‘
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okay hello.
thought about the money/currency subject, and yes it is most definitely nothing...but that doesn't mean you just throw it away.
In Brood War, 4 lurkers is 500minerals/500gas (1000 "total resources", not counting the production time).
That is a lot of resources that could be better spent on more cost efficient/effective units.
10 Zerglings is 250 minerals (250 "total resources"), 1 lurker is 125/125 (250 "total resources").
10 zerglings = 350 hp, 50 damage per hit and a significantly faster attack speed than lurkers.
1 lurker = 125 hp, 20 damage per hit...and a slower attack speed.
In our opinion lurkers are not a cost efficient or intelligent use of resources (at least vs protoss) π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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...also just watched Larva vs Speed losers match game 1 from the recent ASL ro16 on the "Starcast TV English" youtube channel.
Speed opened 1rax cc (17 supply cc variant?)...into 2 factory "delayed mech".
Larva went overpool --> gas --> hatchery into fast 2 hatch mutalisks. Their mutas arrived at Speed's base at around 5:44, Speed did not have sufficient defense. gg.
"Delayed mech" (1rax cc --> mech) doesn't seem to be great against 2 hatch plays. It seems you dont have the time for much vulture production before mutalisks are out...and you wind up giving the zerg too much of an army advantage/map control towards the midgame.
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The thing that I find interesting about the modern meta is: for a long time there was a trend towards faster and faster macro play, which meant a level of passivity. And now a days thats been perfected but combined with very aggressive cheese or mid game timings. Its kind of like an ouroboros. All the macro insights have met back up with the previous meta of mid game timings and early game aggression, and now we have both! This is the most aggressive era of broodwar i've seen in years and years.
Edit: I love Bishops tvz btw, what a fucking joy to watch.
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On October 06 2025 04:14 Ze'ev wrote:
The thing that I find interesting about the modern meta is: for a long time there was a trend towards faster and faster macro play, which meant a level of passivity. And now a days thats been perfected but combined with very aggressive cheese or mid game timings. Its kind of like an ouroboros. All the macro insights have met back up with the previous meta of mid game timings and early game aggression, and now we have both! This is the most aggressive era of broodwar i've seen in years and years.
Edit: I love Bishops tvz btw, what a fucking joy to watch.
Haven't seen a whole lot of Bishop play, or maybe we just dont remember π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
But yeah, as for the modern Brood War professional scene...it seems like the competition is extremely tough.
Some of the better players have approximately 60% win rates in certain matchups.
For an extremely skill based game that is pretty crazy.
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Just watched "2025.10 Flash vs Stork TvP @ Metropolis" on the NamKraft youtube channel.
Flash opened 1 fac cc vs Stork's gateway-->core-->goon-->expand.
Looked like Flash was in good position, but Stork built a Stargate while on 2 base (and harassing with reaver)...then got a 3rd and added their 2nd stargate and Fleet beacon.
Flash moved out and took a 3rd, Stork took a 4th...attacked with carriers and goons --> gg.
Extremely clever build by Stork. Flash seemed to assume they were playing against themself or that their opponent was an F ranker.
Once again it seems like Flash's overconfidence was his downfall (in addition to a very well thought out and excellently executed build by Stork).
Immensely entertertaining and high level game. 12/10.
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On October 04 2025 11:24 perfectspheres wrote:
okay hello.
thought about the money/currency subject, and yes it is most definitely nothing...but that doesn't mean you just throw it away.
In Brood War, 4 lurkers is 500minerals/500gas (1000 "total resources", not counting the production time).
That is a lot of resources that could be better spent on more cost efficient/effective units.
10 Zerglings is 250 minerals (250 "total resources"), 1 lurker is 125/125 (250 "total resources").
10 zerglings = 350 hp, 50 damage per hit and a significantly faster attack speed than lurkers.
1 lurker = 125 hp, 20 damage per hit...and a slower attack speed.
In our opinion lurkers are not a cost efficient or intelligent use of resources (at least vs protoss) π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
I'm 90% sure this is an AI account. Btw your resource count is wrong. 4 lurkers are 600/500 including the overlord. I guess you are good with probing right answers with wrong baits.
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On October 06 2025 19:41 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2025 11:24 perfectspheres wrote:
okay hello.
thought about the money/currency subject, and yes it is most definitely nothing...but that doesn't mean you just throw it away.
In Brood War, 4 lurkers is 500minerals/500gas (1000 "total resources", not counting the production time).
That is a lot of resources that could be better spent on more cost efficient/effective units.
10 Zerglings is 250 minerals (250 "total resources"), 1 lurker is 125/125 (250 "total resources").
10 zerglings = 350 hp, 50 damage per hit and a significantly faster attack speed than lurkers.
1 lurker = 125 hp, 20 damage per hit...and a slower attack speed.
In our opinion lurkers are not a cost efficient or intelligent use of resources (at least vs protoss) π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ I'm 90% sure this is an AI account. Btw your resource count is wrong. 4 lurkers are 600/500 including the overlord. I guess you are good with probing right answers with wrong baits.
Uh we're not AI dude.
Did we say 4 lurkers and an overlord? No. We said 4 lurkers...which most definitely and definitively cost 500/500.
But yes, there is the supply value and the production time you have to worry about as well.
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Watching recent ZvP, it seems like there are some things zerg can perhaps do differently.
Queens Nest + Hive = 113 seconds build time (350 minerals/250 gas)
Spire + 5 Mutalisks = 100 seconds build time (700 minerals/650 gas)
If you skip Spire, you can have your Hive up in +13 seconds, with some resources to spare for upgrades which can prove very useful.
Also, on some maps where you can take a protected 4th, taking your 3rd and 4th hatchery before gas at those locations can be so fucking strong. It's literally 4 base before gas, all you have to do is survive any timing attacks and its ggs π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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On October 08 2025 05:40 perfectspheres wrote:
Watching recent ZvP, it seems like there are some things zerg can perhaps do differently.
Queens Nest + Hive = 113 seconds build time (350 minerals/250 gas)
Spire + 5 Mutalisks = 100 seconds build time (700 minerals/650 gas)
If you skip Spire, you can have your Hive up in +13 seconds, with some resources to spare for upgrades which can prove very useful.
Also, on some maps where you can take a protected 4th, taking your 3rd and 4th hatchery before gas at those locations can be so fucking strong. It's literally 4 base before gas, all you have to do is survive any timing attacks and its ggs π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
This is so wrong, why would you tech to hive? Mutalisks are rushed for map control. There isn't a unit quite like the mutalisk. Zerglings require macro hatch, hydralisks are explosive damage type. Mutalisks are small units with normal damage type, just like zerglings. Zerg trajectory goes from zerglings to mutalisks. If you want to go hydralisks, you'll have to buffer them with some other unit, one of the above.
Watch shine vs light on roaring currents. Shine drops hydralisks using mutalisks as aggro cover. Just 1 mutalisk can increase the survivability of a dozen hydralisks.
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On October 06 2025 11:56 perfectspheres wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2025 04:14 Ze'ev wrote:
The thing that I find interesting about the modern meta is: for a long time there was a trend towards faster and faster macro play, which meant a level of passivity. And now a days thats been perfected but combined with very aggressive cheese or mid game timings. Its kind of like an ouroboros. All the macro insights have met back up with the previous meta of mid game timings and early game aggression, and now we have both! This is the most aggressive era of broodwar i've seen in years and years.
Edit: I love Bishops tvz btw, what a fucking joy to watch. Haven't seen a whole lot of Bishop play, or maybe we just dont remember π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ But yeah, as for the modern Brood War professional scene...it seems like the competition is extremely tough. Some of the better players have approximately 60% win rates in some matchups. For an extremely skill based game that is pretty crazy. You can find some games on artosis casts on youtube.
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Just watched Queen vs. Barracks on the ArtosisCasts youtube channel.
Man was that an incredible game.
Barracks went +1 4 rax, nailed their build order...moved out and crushed Queen's early 3rd. gg.
Games like that are such a get off for us. Executing your build to just about perfection, 11 minute game...ez pz get em out of here.
You don't know how good winning a bunch of games like that in a row feels like.
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On October 08 2025 23:22 Ze'ev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2025 11:56 perfectspheres wrote:On October 06 2025 04:14 Ze'ev wrote:
The thing that I find interesting about the modern meta is: for a long time there was a trend towards faster and faster macro play, which meant a level of passivity. And now a days thats been perfected but combined with very aggressive cheese or mid game timings. Its kind of like an ouroboros. All the macro insights have met back up with the previous meta of mid game timings and early game aggression, and now we have both! This is the most aggressive era of broodwar i've seen in years and years.
Edit: I love Bishops tvz btw, what a fucking joy to watch. Haven't seen a whole lot of Bishop play, or maybe we just dont remember π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ But yeah, as for the modern Brood War professional scene...it seems like the competition is extremely tough. Some of the better players have approximately 60% win rates in some matchups. For an extremely skill based game that is pretty crazy. You can find some games on artosis casts on youtube.
Yeah, watch Artosiscasts pretty frequently. Pretty sure we have seen them play...must just not remember π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ
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Just watched the Queen vs Barracks, game 3 on the Artosiscasts youtube channel titled "Get those missile turrets!".
Queen opened overpool, Barracks opened with a standard wall at their natural, moved out with some of their early marines...and lost them.
Their CC was late, 2nd barracks and academy were late...Queen attacked with mutalisks-->gg.
Kind of whatever game π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
Talked about the Light game where they moved out with early marine pressure and did some drone damage, then cruised to an easy win...but that was in close positions. This was cross spawns.
Was thinking about whether early marine (before CC) pressure is smart/effective/viable/...and it probably is if you kill any drones, and force the zerg to build zerglings early on. Probably depends on what zerg chooses to follow up with though.
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Havent watched any Brood War the last day or so, interested in watching some ZvT where zerg > 2rax acad and +1 builds.
Also would like to see some mech TvZ, but it seems professional players have trended away from mech play because fac cc and rax cc builds are not optimal vs 2 hatch plays. They have apparently forgotten about 2 factory builds π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ
Did see Light have some success against Soulkey with fac-starport-cc, but they only had like 1 valkyrie and 2 turrets at their main when mutalisks arrived.
They defended the mutas alright, but when they got to 4 base, they tried to take a 5th off only 5 factories. They barely couldnt defend Soulkey's pressure...gg.
Would encourage any starting Terran players to watch "Stylish fpvods" if you can find them on youtube. They were very helpful for us many years ago, and there are still some concepts which can be applied today.
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Watched Flash vs Jaedong from the 2009 NATE MSL, game 3 (power outage game).
Flash opened 1 rax cc (2 depot before cc variant) with a wall at their natural. Jaedong opened with a 3 hatchery play.
After losing a few of his early armies, Flash went up to 8 barracks off of 2 base, and moved out with a huge medic marine force.
Flash took down Jaedong's 3rd base, but JD had another one already up (not mining).
Eventually, Jaedong got their 4th base (double gas) going, Flash got their 3rd (mineral only) up around 18 minutes, moved out and tried to take Jaedong's 3rd down...but was held off by defilers/ultralisks. The power in the building then went out.
KeSPA awarded the game to Jaedong, deciding that Jaedong was at an advantage, and that it would have been unfair to replay the game.
Jaedong was on 4 base (1 was a double gas base) against Flash's 3 base (1 mineral only)...with defilers/ultras in close proximity to Flash's mineral only, which had just started to mine.
In our opinion it was the correct ruling, very professional from KeSPA. We are not perfect by any means, but that kind of thing is always appreciated π―π―
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Just watched Effort vs Royal on the Falcon Paladin youtube channel titled "QUEENS? MECH BRO!..."
Royal opened 1 rax cc (2 supply variant) into mech. Effort opened 2.5 hatchery.
Royal decided to go for the double armory play, and as a result was a little light on units going into the midgame.
After a few trades, and Royal getting their 3rd base up...they went for a base trade and Effort came out on top, gg.
Rax cc --> mech ("delayed mech"), is already somewhat low on troops...but the double armory, in addition to only having 1 scv mining gas at their natural for decent amount of time seemed to have done Royal in.
If Royal had not made those 2 "mistakes", in addition to having a slightly different unit composition...perhaps this game could have turned out differently π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut.
Would do an analysis of those games if we could...tried finding some of those games on youtube/the small VOD thread and couldn't π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ
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Made this thread mostly to have a place to put our Brood War
observations/thoughts on the games we watch. Holding things in is not healthy most of the time.
Didn't really make it for anyone else, and was thinking of just writing them down on notepad or whatever...but felt this was a better place for them.
Apologies if we missed your comments, once again we weren't really making this thread for anyone else...but if you have any requests for games you would like an analysis done of, don't hesistate to drop us a link and we'd be glad to do it.
Thanks π«
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On October 08 2025 06:41 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2025 05:40 perfectspheres wrote:
Watching recent ZvP, it seems like there are some things zerg can perhaps do differently.
Queens Nest + Hive = 113 seconds build time (350 minerals/250 gas)
Spire + 5 Mutalisks = 100 seconds build time (700 minerals/650 gas)
If you skip Spire, you can have your Hive up in +13 seconds, with some resources to spare for upgrades which can prove very useful.
Also, on some maps where you can take a protected 4th, taking your 3rd and 4th hatchery before gas at those locations can be so fucking strong. It's literally 4 base before gas, all you have to do is survive any timing attacks and its ggs π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ This is so wrong, why would you tech to hive? Mutalisks are rushed for map control. There isn't a unit quite like the mutalisk. Zerglings require macro hatch, hydralisks are explosive damage type. Mutalisks are small units with normal damage type, just like zerglings. Zerg trajectory goes from zerglings to mutalisks. If you want to go hydralisks, you'll have to buffer them with some other unit, one of the above. Watch shine vs light on roaring currents. Shine drops hydralisks using mutalisks as aggro cover. Just 1 mutalisk can increase the survivability of a dozen hydralisks.
Actually not.
Saying Zerg trajectory goes from lings --> mutalisks would be quite incorrect, especially in ZvP.
A lot of times just scourge are built with the common/standard 3 hatch spire --> 5/6 hatch hydra build.
With 3/4 hatch hydra, you go from lings straight to hydralisks.
We have already made our argument that mutalisks are cost inefficient vs protoss, and that the resources would probably be better used on upgrades + economy + high DPS/strong units like zerglings/hydras/ultras/defilers.
In this instance we are probably just going to have to agree to disagree π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched a Flash vs Stork game on the NamKraft youtube channel titled "Laddernet 2025.10 Flash vs Stork TvP @ Roaring Current..."
Stork opened 12 nex, Flash apparently read their mind and opened 13 cc.
Flash then proceeded to throw away their scouting SCV to a few probes before seeing the protoss tech path (core wasn't finished and no dragoons were out).
Stork proceeded to put their 3rd base down at 4:00, got carriers up while Flash went up to 4 base...gg.
It seems Flash's just assumed they were at a decisive advantage from their 13cc, which proved not to be the case.
It's tough seeing players who were once top level become lackadaisical, and have weaknesses in their play blatantly apparent.
In this case it seems overconfidence/lack of attention to detail did Flash in (again). It no longer seems they are the best player in the Brood War scene π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched the game titled "FlaSh uses the most OBSCURE build vs Zerg" on the Artosiscasts youtube channel.
Flash opened 2 factory mech (w/ ebay block) vs Larva's 2.5 hatch play. They got their expo up, a starport before 3rd factory, and finally went to 6 factories as they get their 3rd CC ready to mine.
Didn't agree with them throwing away their vultures on a runby, but otherwise looked like an immaculately played game. They hit with a timing attack before Larva's queens could reach the energy for Broodlings...gg.
Been saying that mech could be the move TvZ, but havent seen it a whole lot recently.
Would like to see more play like this, 12:40 game...zerg was on the back foot the whole time. Superb. 12/10 π―π―
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Just watched the Queen vs Barracks game titled "Laddernet 2025.10 Barracks vs Queen TvZ @ Dominator..." on the NamKraft youtube channel.
12 hatch from Queen, 1 rax cc (2 supply variant) --> 2 rax academy from Barracks.
Barracks moved out with about 9 marines, 1 firebat, and 2 medics...hit Queen's natural right before mutas popped...did significant damage, and Queen was never able to recover. gg.
Queen went 2.5 hatch (not the early 3rd base variant), and perhaps could have kept better track of the Terran army movement...but even after being at a disadvantage they continued to fight as hard as possible to come back and win.
Seen Flash gg early in a few games recently, as if gg'ing early proves your insane knowledge of the game.
From our perspective, even if you win 1 game out of 9,000,000,000 by fighting on, it is worth it for us π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched the game titled "Are Carriers making a comeback in the Meta-Game?" on the ArtosisCasts youtube channel.
Royal vs Rich, TvP.
Royal opened 11fac-->cc.
Rich opened 12nex double gateway variation.
Pretty standard game, Royal got their 3rd up while Rich was still on 3 base as well...but seemed to make a bit of a mistake with their army composition being too light on vultures. Their first push got cleaned up, Rich had carriers --> gg.
Not much to say about this game other than noticing Terrans seems to be favoring tanks a bit too heavily. Many times it seems the vulture heavy compositions do a lot better vs Protoss.
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I'm also getting major AI vibes from this guy. Maybe one of those weirdos from artosis chat? The emojis, the out of place use of they and us. Maybe he uses it just to craft the text?
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On October 22 2025 16:45 Navane wrote:
I'm also getting major AI vibes from this guy. Maybe one of those weirdos from artosis chat? The emojis, the out of place use of they and us. Maybe he uses it just to craft the text?
Naw I'm leaning closer to dissociative identity disorder, or what self-diagnosing terminally online people call being "plural".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plurality_(identity)
If you look at the emoji, it's always one man one woman. If you look at their Instagram/Facebook posts, they are constantly posting as if the account is a mix of activity between two distinct, named people. However, we never see photos of them together, nor are the photos of the women on Instagram consistent; they seem to be more like attempts to embody or visualize that second part of their plural system. Their writing style also doesn't actually change all that much, either. Furthermore, their name is consistently perfectspheres, again implying plurality. However, I will admit that the variety of other random shit on their FB/Instagram makes it hard to be certain of anything.
Anyway, I interpret it as "we" being used to refer to the individual members of the plural system agreeing with one another about some statement. So, "probably not" to AI vibes, but "yes" to the TL BW section becoming a hotbed of mental illness, trolling, and very imaginative noob threads as of late (though it's kinda hard to tell schizoposting from intentional ARG, tbf).
Share your opinion on the trend here!
https://tl.net/forum/website-feedback/642231-sad-state-of-bw-strategy
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On October 22 2025 16:45 Navane wrote:
I'm also getting major AI vibes from this guy. Maybe one of those weirdos from artosis chat? The emojis, the out of place use of they and us. Maybe he uses it just to craft the text?
Most definitely not AI or a guy.
Pretty sure saying "I" is much more out of line than "us/them".
I = me/myself...if you think you can do things by yourself, or are doing things by yourself we wish you luck in your quest π―π―
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On October 22 2025 23:35 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2025 16:45 Navane wrote:
I'm also getting major AI vibes from this guy. Maybe one of those weirdos from artosis chat? The emojis, the out of place use of they and us. Maybe he uses it just to craft the text? Naw I'm leaning closer to dissociative identity disorder, or what self-diagnosing terminally online people call being "plural". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plurality_(identity)If you look at the emoji, it's always one man one woman. If you look at their Instagram/Facebook posts, they are constantly posting as if the account is a mix of activity between two distinct, named people. However, we never see photos of them together, nor are the photos of the women on Instagram consistent; they seem to be more like attempts to embody or visualize that second part of their plural system. Their writing style also doesn't actually change all that much, either. Furthermore, their name is consistently perfectsphere s, again implying plurality. However, I will admit that the variety of other random shit on their FB/Instagram makes it hard to be certain of anything. Anyway, I interpret it as "we" being used to refer to the individual members of the plural system agreeing with one another about some statement. So, "probably not" to AI vibes, but "yes" to the TL BW section becoming a hotbed of mental illness, trolling, and very imaginative noob threads as of late (though it's kinda hard to tell schizoposting from intentional ARG, tbf). Share your opinion on the trend here! https://tl.net/forum/website-feedback/642231-sad-state-of-bw-strategy
Once again, I = me/myself.
Thinking you are doing things by yourself would seem more like a mental illness to us.
This thread is for talking about the highest levels of the professional BW meta.
Not here to advertise, if you would like more information on the what "we" are subject, you can check out the website listed on our signature.
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Just watched the game titled "CARRIERS ARE SO BACK, BABY" on the ArtosisCasts youtube channel.
Royal vs Rush TvP.
Royal looked like they were going for a 13/14cc...got scouted, and immediately threw down a barracks/refinery.
Rich opened with a gateway at their natural...popped 2 zealots out before going into dragoon production. They did significant damage to Royal's economy, forcing them them to pull many SCVs off the line and killing some.
After getting to 3 base, Rich overpowered Royal as they tried to secure their 3rd --> gg.
It seems after taking damage early, Royal compounded their disadvantage by being too heavy on tanks/not enough vultures. Many professional Terrans seems to be struggling in this aspect of the game at the moment.
Until that changes, going to have to take the current top protosses (Snow, Best, Mini, Bisu etc.) over the Terran players we have seen π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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On October 23 2025 12:04 perfectspheres wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2025 23:35 Jealous wrote:On October 22 2025 16:45 Navane wrote:
I'm also getting major AI vibes from this guy. Maybe one of those weirdos from artosis chat? The emojis, the out of place use of they and us. Maybe he uses it just to craft the text? Naw I'm leaning closer to dissociative identity disorder, or what self-diagnosing terminally online people call being "plural". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plurality_(identity)If you look at the emoji, it's always one man one woman. If you look at their Instagram/Facebook posts, they are constantly posting as if the account is a mix of activity between two distinct, named people. However, we never see photos of them together, nor are the photos of the women on Instagram consistent; they seem to be more like attempts to embody or visualize that second part of their plural system. Their writing style also doesn't actually change all that much, either. Furthermore, their name is consistently perfectsphere s, again implying plurality. However, I will admit that the variety of other random shit on their FB/Instagram makes it hard to be certain of anything. Anyway, I interpret it as "we" being used to refer to the individual members of the plural system agreeing with one another about some statement. So, "probably not" to AI vibes, but "yes" to the TL BW section becoming a hotbed of mental illness, trolling, and very imaginative noob threads as of late (though it's kinda hard to tell schizoposting from intentional ARG, tbf). Share your opinion on the trend here! https://tl.net/forum/website-feedback/642231-sad-state-of-bw-strategy Once again, I = me/myself. Thinking you are doing things by yourself would seem more like a mental illness to us. This thread is for talking about the highest levels of the professional BW meta. Not here to advertise, if you would like more information on the what "we" are subject, you can check out the website listed on our signature.
So you believe you are two people in one body posting analysis on Brood War. Please prove me wrong or continue.
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On October 23 2025 14:21 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2025 12:04 perfectspheres wrote:On October 22 2025 23:35 Jealous wrote:On October 22 2025 16:45 Navane wrote:
I'm also getting major AI vibes from this guy. Maybe one of those weirdos from artosis chat? The emojis, the out of place use of they and us. Maybe he uses it just to craft the text? Naw I'm leaning closer to dissociative identity disorder, or what self-diagnosing terminally online people call being "plural". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plurality_(identity)If you look at the emoji, it's always one man one woman. If you look at their Instagram/Facebook posts, they are constantly posting as if the account is a mix of activity between two distinct, named people. However, we never see photos of them together, nor are the photos of the women on Instagram consistent; they seem to be more like attempts to embody or visualize that second part of their plural system. Their writing style also doesn't actually change all that much, either. Furthermore, their name is consistently perfectsphere s, again implying plurality. However, I will admit that the variety of other random shit on their FB/Instagram makes it hard to be certain of anything. Anyway, I interpret it as "we" being used to refer to the individual members of the plural system agreeing with one another about some statement. So, "probably not" to AI vibes, but "yes" to the TL BW section becoming a hotbed of mental illness, trolling, and very imaginative noob threads as of late (though it's kinda hard to tell schizoposting from intentional ARG, tbf). Share your opinion on the trend here! https://tl.net/forum/website-feedback/642231-sad-state-of-bw-strategy Once again, I = me/myself. Thinking you are doing things by yourself would seem more like a mental illness to us. This thread is for talking about the highest levels of the professional BW meta. Not here to advertise, if you would like more information on the what "we" are subject, you can check out the website listed on our signature. So you believe you are two people in one body posting analysis on Brood War. Please prove me wrong or continue.
Not going to engage in that discussion here, the website in our signature will address all your concerns.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Just watched "DPL 2025.10 Snow vs Soma PvZ @ Metropolis | Starcraft Commentary" on the NamKraft youtube channel.
Soma opened 9 pool, popped out 6 lings, did a runby against Snow's attempt at a gateway expand...and had an advantage going into the midgame.
They then popped out some mutas, did some damage, and transitioned into hydras --> gg.
Quick game, don't see 9 pool too frequently these days ZvP...but it seemed to put Soma ahead after they spawned at close positions.
We will see if more players choose 9 pool in the future (at least on 4 player maps), given there is a 2/3 chance of close spawns π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched "[ENG] SCSL S4 Ro.4 Match 2 (Best vs Rush)..."
on the Starcast TV English youtube channel.
Rush opened 1 fac cc (12 gas variant) --> 1fac/1starport vulture drop.
Best opened with a range goon expand --> DT drop --> 2 base arbiters.
After doing pretty decent damage with their vulture drop, Rush got up to 5 factory and tried to take their 3rd.
Best stayed on 2 base until after 12:30...prevented Rush from taking their 3rd, then eventually went up to 5 base. They then stasised Rush's army --> gg.
Rush seemed to be at an advantage after their vulture drop, but it seems trying to take their 3rd when they attempted to do so was a mistake. 2 base vs 2 base is generally win conditions for Terran.
It also seems like Rush suffered from what many Terrans are currently suffering from (and what we talked about earlier): overproducing tanks (and being too light on vultures).
We will see if this changes in the future π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Watched the game titled "KCM 2025 S4 W1 Set 6 @ Roaring Current" on the Namkraft youtube channel.
Jaedong vs Stork PvZ
Jaedong opened with a 9 pool, Stork opened forge --> cannon --> nexus --> gateway
Jaedong produced 6 lings, then attacked Stork's natural...killing 1 probe and losing all of their lings.
They then made about 12 more lings, attacked with 8 of them, and got into Stork's base, killing about 5 probes.
Both players then stabilized, with Stork surprisingly choosing to go robotics facility off 1 gateway/1stargate.
Jaedong went up to 4 base while Stork took a 3rd.
Jaedong then made a round of mutas with scourge, took Stork's 3rd base down, got their 5th up --> gg.
Was talking about 9 pool on 4 player maps before, and it seems that even after losing their first 6 lings...Jaedong was able to pretty easily handle their Protoss opponent.
Perhaps Stork was just trying new/different builds on the ladder, but 9 pool (ZvP) on 4 player maps...or maps with close spawns is something to keep an eye on π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Watched game 1 of the ASL S20 Finals (Snow vs Soma) on the Starcast TV English youtube channel.
Snow opened nexus --> gateway, while Soma opened 3 hatchery before pool, with the hatchery at their natural offset because of a pylon block.
Soma added a 4th hatchery and hydra den, before taking a 5th hatchery at their 4th base. Snow responded with 2 Stargate corsair reaver.
With Soma already delaying their Spire in favor of economics/ground army...it seems the 2 Stargate play from Snow was a mistake.
Snow made it a game, but eventually was unable to match Soma on the ground, with it eventually being on 8 base to 4 --> gg.
Very interesting game, was impressed with Soma in some aspects, but still believe lurkers/mutalisks are not cost efficient vs protoss.
Snow looked good as usual, but seemed to make a few strategy blunders. Not convinced PvZ is a matchup you can win 100% of the games in (that has to be the mindset though π―π―)
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On October 13 2025 02:57 perfectspheres wrote:
Havent watched any Brood War the last day or so, interested in watching some ZvT where zerg > 2rax acad and +1 builds.
Also would like to see some mech TvZ, but it seems professional players have trended away from mech play because fac cc and rax cc builds are not optimal vs 2 hatch plays. They have apparently forgotten about 2 factory builds π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ
Did see Light have some success against Soulkey with fac-starport-cc, but they only had like 1 valkyrie and 2 turrets at their main when mutalisks arrived.
They defended the mutas alright, but when they got to 4 base, they tried to take a 5th off only 5 factories. They barely couldnt defend Soulkey's pressure...gg.
Would encourage any starting Terran players to watch "Stylish fpvods" if you can find them on youtube. They were very helpful for us many years ago, and there are still some concepts which can be applied today.
Watched CNSL 7 Miso vs Bishop 2. game. Just what we have been looking for.
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On October 19 2025 10:38 perfectspheres wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut. Would do an analysis of those games if we could...tried finding some of those games on youtube/the small VOD thread and couldn't π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ
Here you go:
Effort vs Sharp;+ Show Spoiler +
Speed vs Hero;+ Show Spoiler +
Light vs Shine;+ Show Spoiler +
Larva vs Flash;+ Show Spoiler +
Sharp vs Larva;+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 30 2025 18:49 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2025 02:57 perfectspheres wrote:
Havent watched any Brood War the last day or so, interested in watching some ZvT where zerg > 2rax acad and +1 builds.
Also would like to see some mech TvZ, but it seems professional players have trended away from mech play because fac cc and rax cc builds are not optimal vs 2 hatch plays. They have apparently forgotten about 2 factory builds π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ
Did see Light have some success against Soulkey with fac-starport-cc, but they only had like 1 valkyrie and 2 turrets at their main when mutalisks arrived.
They defended the mutas alright, but when they got to 4 base, they tried to take a 5th off only 5 factories. They barely couldnt defend Soulkey's pressure...gg.
Would encourage any starting Terran players to watch "Stylish fpvods" if you can find them on youtube. They were very helpful for us many years ago, and there are still some concepts which can be applied today. Watched CNSL 7 Miso vs Bishop 2. game. Just what we have been looking for.
Will try and check it out, thanks ππ
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On October 30 2025 21:29 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2025 10:38 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut. Would do an analysis of those games if we could...tried finding some of those games on youtube/the small VOD thread and couldn't π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ Here you go: Effort vs Sharp; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=pjGXmENhPU4 Speed vs Hero; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=0LqDFkFvCQE Light vs Shine; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=ArHFtIwm1ak Larva vs Flash; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=Tvn5j1MjrPk Sharp vs Larva; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=PzmipsbRr4w
Greatly appreciate it, will check these out when we have the time π―π―
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Just watched "KCM 2025 S4 W2 Set 5 @ Litmus | Starcraft Commentary" on the NamKraft youtube Channel.
Sharp vs herO TvZ.
Sharp opened with 2 port wraith, walling off their main.
Hero opened 12 hatch --> 2.5 hatch mutalisks with their 3rd hatchery at their natural.
After a few skirmishes, Sharp threw down 3 barracks off 1 base, and transitioned back into bio...with their Starports producing Science Vessels.
Hero seemed content staying on 2 base, went heavy mutalisks, got them irradiated and their natural breached --> gg.
Not sure if low drone count 2 base zerg is win conditions vs high SCV saturation 1 base Terran. It also seems herO made a bad choice staying on mass mutalisks.
Kind of a whatever game, don't usually like 2 port wraith vs. 2 hatchery plays...but maybe it is better against 2.5 hatch. Have seen Speed have some success with it in the past π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched "BarrackS π°π· (T) vs Larva π°π· (Z) on Metropolis - Starcraft Brood War - 2025" on the Falcon Paladin youtube channel.
Barracks opened 1 rax CC (15 supply variant), while Larva opened 2.5 hatchery.
Barracks chose to go barracks-factory-starport --> valkyries, and went up to 3rax.
Larva put their 3rd base down at around 6:30.
After a few skirmishes, it looked like Barracks was in the lead, then attempted to transition into mech play while taking their 3rd base. They also surpisingly attempted to take a 4th shortly after.
Larva attacked Barracks' 3rd with mutas, Barracks wasnt able to defend --> gg.
It seems Barracks played well, but then got a little too greedy and threw the game away. Perhaps they were just trying builds out on the ladders, but you never like to see that.
Interesting game...the state of TvZ at the professional levels seems to be favoring Zerg at the moment, but the scales might be tipping back in Terran's favor π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched "Invisible Men In Yo Base !!" on the ArtosisCasts youtube channel.
Sharp vs Stork TvP.
Sharp opened vulture expand (12 gas variant), Stork opened with zealot, dragoon, range, 2nd goon.
Stork put pressure on Sharp's natural...killing the SCV making the CC, slowing it by a considerable amount of time.
They they threw down a citadel, nexus, and robo...apparently attempting to go straight into a DT drop and end the game.
Sharp sniffed it out, pushed across the map and did some damage to Stork's economy.
After they both stabilized a bit, Sharp got their 3rd base up, then put down a 4th...and pushed for the win. gg.
It appears Stork got too caught up in being Protoss, and just tried to scum the Terran out after taking an early advantage.
Perhaps they were just messing around on the ladders...but you usually expect high level protosses to convert that sort of early advantage into a win.
Sharp's macro did look very good, still a little heavy on the tanks in our opinion...but an entertaining game nonetheless π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched "Light! π°π· (T) vs Soulkey! π°π· (Z) on Metropolis - Starcraft - Brood War - 2025" on the Falcon Paladin youtube channel.
Light opened 1 rax cc (2 supply depot variant) --> 2 rax academy --> 3rd rax --> factory/starport.
Soulkey opened 12 hatch --> 2 hatch early 3rd.
After a few skirmishes, and Light unable to take down either Soulkey's natural or their 3rd base, they landed a few big irradiates on Soulkey's mutas and got their own 3rd base up.
They then attempted to take a 4th, got it up while losing their third, and threw away a bunch of dropships trying to take down Soulkey's 3rd base.
After Light tried to switch to mech, with factories at their new 3rd base...Soulkey with their 4 bases established attacked Light's natural --> gg.
Kind of interesting game. Light was up quite a bit of supply in the midgame, but it seems like throwing away their dropships, in addition to going 2 rax academy and not being able to take down Soulkey's 3rd did them in.
It didn't help that they ineffectively attempted to switch to mech, effectively throwing resources down the drain doing so.
Impressive game by Soulkey, it looked like they were losing the whole game...but a few mistakes by Light allowed them to come back and win π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched "1,000,000 Zealots" on the ArtosisCasts youtube channel. Stork vs Speed TvP.
Stork opened with some zealot pressure, got their expansion up, went to 3 gateway, and started their 3rd around 7:55.
Speed went 12 gas --> 1fac cc --> 2nd factory --> armory/ebay ---> 6 factory push --> gg from Stork.
Kind of whatever game. It seemed like Stork had a chance to break the push...but they decided to try and attack from a different angle and got wrecked.
Wasn't all that impressed with either player, Speed was sitting at around 450 APM at times, yet their micro didn't seem top tier. They also seemed a bit heavy on tanks.
Stork looked like they chose a "middle of the road/safe" build...which winds up just putting you behind a lot of the time against a strong Terran player.
In our opinion, PvT is best played by keeping the Terran off balance, and cutting corners to gain advantages when possible.
Will check out some of the top Protosses (Snow, Best, Mini, Bisu etc.) to see what they are doing in this regard π―π―
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Have been talking lately about how many Terrans seem to be a little heavy on the tanks in TvP.
Here is some data to back this up:
Vultures (75 minerals) = 75 "total resources" = minerals+gas.
Siege Tanks (150 minerals/100 gas) = 250 "total resources".
Vultures 80 hp
Siege Tanks 150hp.
3 vultures (225 "total resources") = 240 hp, 60 damage per shot vs shields/small units. On liquipedia it says they have 2.5x the fire rate of siege tanks in siege mode.
That is 300 damage vs shields/small units in the time it takes a tank to fire 2 volleys in siege mode (obviously you have to consider their damage vs large units).
1 tank (250 "total resources") = 150 hp, 70 damage vs large/shields, 35 vs small per shot in siege mode.
Vultures also get a bonus 45 hp each with spider mines, in addition to their mobility advantage, while only taking 15 damage per shot against dragoons while base siege tanks take 19.
The build time is definitely a factor, but each tank you make can just about be another factory (150/100 vs 200/100) π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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On October 30 2025 21:29 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2025 10:38 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut. Would do an analysis of those games if we could...tried finding some of those games on youtube/the small VOD thread and couldn't π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ Here you go: Effort vs Sharp; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=pjGXmENhPU4 Speed vs Hero; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=0LqDFkFvCQE Light vs Shine; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=ArHFtIwm1ak Larva vs Flash; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=Tvn5j1MjrPk Sharp vs Larva; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=PzmipsbRr4w
Just checked out the Effort vs Sharp Game.
Very interesting game, Effort opened 2.5 hatch...Sharp opened fac-->starport-->cc-->starport.
Sharp looked like they only made 1 marine for defense, and skipped vultures completely. They got their natural up pretty quickly, kept Effort on 2 mining bases for quite some time, transitioned back into bio/vessels --> gg.
Effort seems to have blundered not having their 3rd base up and effectively mining until after 10:30. They also seemed confused with how to deal with Sharp's opening, as the only information they really got was the 1 wraith that took down their overlord by Sharp's natural.
Any success ZvT to us is impressive, but still you have to know that sitting on 2 base vs 2 base for any extended period of time is probably not going to end well for you as a zerg player π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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On October 30 2025 21:29 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2025 10:38 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut. Would do an analysis of those games if we could...tried finding some of those games on youtube/the small VOD thread and couldn't π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ Here you go: Effort vs Sharp; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=pjGXmENhPU4 Speed vs Hero; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=0LqDFkFvCQE Light vs Shine; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=ArHFtIwm1ak Larva vs Flash; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=Tvn5j1MjrPk Sharp vs Larva; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=PzmipsbRr4w
Just checked out the Speed vs Hero game.
Speed opened with a proxy factory into 2 port wraiths. Hero opened 2.5 hatch.
Not a whole lot to say about this game, other than Speed seemed to pretty easily hande Hero with their wraiths.
Speed's wraith control does appear to be top tier, but this is the 2nd game we've seen recently where 2port > 2.5 hatch.
Something to keep an eye on for sure. Do tend to favor macro oriented plays...but if you can get easy wins with 2 port wraith, by all means do it π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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On October 31 2025 12:04 perfectspheres wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2025 21:29 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 10:38 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut. Would do an analysis of those games if we could...tried finding some of those games on youtube/the small VOD thread and couldn't π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ Here you go: Effort vs Sharp; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=pjGXmENhPU4 Speed vs Hero; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=0LqDFkFvCQE Light vs Shine; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=ArHFtIwm1ak Larva vs Flash; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=Tvn5j1MjrPk Sharp vs Larva; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=PzmipsbRr4w Greatly appreciate it, will check these out when we have the time π―π―
Just checked out the Light vs Shine game.
Light opened 1fac cc --> starport valkyries.
Shine opened 2 hatch --> early 3rd.
After successfully defending mutalisks, Light decided to go bio...but had their first push held off.
They then transitioned back into mech, throwing down 8 factories as they got their 4 bases up.
It looked like they were in a good position, but wound up losing a long game (30+ minutes).
Shine looked very good, but it seems like Light wasted resources on their ineffective bio play...and also got picked apart by Queens, as well as Zerg's inherent advantage on island maps (being able to use overlords as dropships).
Seen Light use this opener a few times, once against Soulkey where it put them in a good position to win (but in that game they followed up with mech).
Don't necessarily agree with following up the fac/cc/starport with bio play, as you just wind up having a later cc than a traditional 1rax cc bio opening.
It is something to keep an eye on though, because if you can factory expand into mech against 2 hatchery builds, it puts you in a decent economic position while also giving you the tech advantage π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Watched "Sniffing for Carriers! Bisu π°π· (P) vs Speed π°π· (T) on Dominator! - Starcraft - Brood War - 2025" on the Falcon Paladin youtube channel.
Bisu opened range expand --> 2 gate obs --> 3rd base around 6:30.
Speed opened 12 gas --> fac cc --> 3rd base off 3 factories.
Bisu went up to 5 base, then 7 base as Speed got their 3rd and 4th bases up.
Bisu then tried to transition to Carriers, Speed hit with a timing attack --> gg.
Not a whole lot to say about this game, Bisu may have been better off just throwing down more gateways/going arbiters w/ storm instead of investing in the carriers.
Other than that, well played by both sides...ggs π―π―
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On October 30 2025 21:29 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2025 10:38 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut. Would do an analysis of those games if we could...tried finding some of those games on youtube/the small VOD thread and couldn't π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ Here you go: Effort vs Sharp; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=pjGXmENhPU4 Speed vs Hero; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=0LqDFkFvCQE Light vs Shine; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=ArHFtIwm1ak Larva vs Flash; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=Tvn5j1MjrPk Sharp vs Larva; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=PzmipsbRr4w
Already did an analysis of the Larva vs Flash game, but just watched the Sharp vs Larva game and here are our thoughts:
Sharp opened fac-->starport-->cc-->science vessels.
Larva opened 2.5 hatch with their 3rd base finishing around 6:30.
Sharp transitioned into bio, then did a timing attack and took down Larva's 3rd base.
You would think this would win them the game, but they allowed Larva to get a new 3rd and 4th base at the island expos.
It seems Sharp stayed on 2 base too long, and after eventually getting their 3rd and 4th base up, then losing their 4th and building Battlecruisers, they decided to gg.
Kind of a whatever game. Sharp probably could have won by being more dilligent in sniffing out new bases from Larva after taking down their original 3rd, but hindsight is 20/20 π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched "DROP THOSE MARINES! Soma! π°π· (Z) vs Speed! π°π· (T) on Polypoid - Starcraft - Brood War 2025" on the Falcon Paladin youtube channel.
Speed opened 1 rax CC --> 2 rax academy.
Soma opened 2.5 hatch and didn't start their 3rd base until 7:45.
It looks like Soma decided to delay their third base a bit in favor of a stronger midgame army, got their 3rd and 4th base up --> gg.
You would think staying on 2 base vs 2 base for that long would be in Terran's favor, but Soma showed how Zerg in this matchup can use a temporary army advantage to defend/take map control, then leapfrog the Terran economically and get their lategame tech up.
Impressive game by Soma π―π―
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On November 07 2025 07:32 perfectspheres wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2025 21:29 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 10:38 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut. Would do an analysis of those games if we could...tried finding some of those games on youtube/the small VOD thread and couldn't π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ Here you go: Effort vs Sharp; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=pjGXmENhPU4 Speed vs Hero; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=0LqDFkFvCQE Light vs Shine; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=ArHFtIwm1ak Larva vs Flash; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=Tvn5j1MjrPk Sharp vs Larva; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=PzmipsbRr4w Already did an analysis of the Larva vs Flash game, but just watched the Sharp vs Larva game and here are our thoughts: Sharp opened fac-->starport-->cc-->science vessels. Larva opened 2.5 hatch with their 3rd base finishing around 6:30. Sharp transitioned into bio, then did a timing attack and took down Larva's 3rd base. You would think this would win them the game, but they allowed Larva to get a new 3rd and 4th base at the island expos. It seems Sharp stayed on 2 base too long, and after eventually getting their 3rd and 4th base up, then losing their 4th and building Battlecruisers, they decided to gg. Kind of a whatever game. Sharp probably could have won by being more dilligent in sniffing out new bases from Larva after taking down their original 3rd, but hindsight is 20/20 π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
Ignore my Flash Larva game. I sent it because I couldn't find the timeline when Larva ultralisk dropped Sharp in the other game. It is at 17:30. I found that interesting.
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On November 07 2025 21:33 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2025 07:32 perfectspheres wrote:On October 30 2025 21:29 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 10:38 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut. Would do an analysis of those games if we could...tried finding some of those games on youtube/the small VOD thread and couldn't π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ Here you go: Effort vs Sharp; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=pjGXmENhPU4 Speed vs Hero; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=0LqDFkFvCQE Light vs Shine; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=ArHFtIwm1ak Larva vs Flash; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=Tvn5j1MjrPk Sharp vs Larva; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=PzmipsbRr4w Already did an analysis of the Larva vs Flash game, but just watched the Sharp vs Larva game and here are our thoughts: Sharp opened fac-->starport-->cc-->science vessels. Larva opened 2.5 hatch with their 3rd base finishing around 6:30. Sharp transitioned into bio, then did a timing attack and took down Larva's 3rd base. You would think this would win them the game, but they allowed Larva to get a new 3rd and 4th base at the island expos. It seems Sharp stayed on 2 base too long, and after eventually getting their 3rd and 4th base up, then losing their 4th and building Battlecruisers, they decided to gg. Kind of a whatever game. Sharp probably could have won by being more dilligent in sniffing out new bases from Larva after taking down their original 3rd, but hindsight is 20/20 π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ Ignore my Flash Larva game. I sent it because I couldn't find the timeline when Larva ultralisk dropped Sharp in the other game. It is at 17:30. I found that interesting.
Yeah it looks like Larva was thinking of dropping one of Sharp's bases, but decided to do a defensive drop instead.
As for the Flash vs Larva game, the analysis for it is on one of the first posts on this thread, it's the "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran" game.
Once again, appreciate the game recommendations π―π―
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Just watched game 1 of "Artosis vs StRyKeR @ SC4ALL Philadelphia"
Artosis opened 2 rax academy.
StRyKeR opened 2.5 hatchery and delayed their 3rd similarly to how Soma did in the most recent game we did an analysis of.
But instead of going defilers, StRyKeR chose to go ultralisks off 3 base...got their 3rd breached by a large terran bio army --> gg.
Pretty good game, didn't know what to expect from a couple of "foreigners" ("illegal aliens" is what people from other countries are sometimes called in the United States)...
Artosis nailed their build order, seemed to do what they wanted to do. The zerg player (StRyKeR) looked like they made a bad choice skipping lurkers/defilers and opting for ultras. ggs.
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Just watched "[ENG] SCSL S4 3rd place match (Action vs Rush) - StarCastTV English" on the StarcastTV English youtube channel.
Rush opened with a proxy 8 rax towards the middle of the map, Action opened 9 pool.
Action decided to go straight for Rush's main with their initial zerglings, Rush decided to not try and defend...instead they tried to bunker Action's natural, and got a factory up as well.
After failing to take down Action's natural and losing a bunch of SCVs/their initial vulture...Rush decided to gg.
Nothing too interesting about this game, it seems like 8rax bunker rushes have lost a lot of their effectiveness, especially on 4 player maps.
Zergs seem very confident defending them with drones when they 12 hatch, and it is basically always going to be a lose/play from behind situation when they opt for an early pool.
Take it mind this was a 3rd place match (Rush might have just been trying to get the games over with), but wouldn't be surprised to see professional Terran players trend away from this strategy in the near future π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Watched "π₯π₯Ladderrnet 2025.11 Larva vs Barracks ZvT @ Knock Out | Starcraft Remastered" on the NamKraft youtube channel.
Wow this game was so crazy.
Barracks opened 1 rax CC (2 supply variant), then opted for a fast factory and starport --> valkyries.
Larva opened 12 hatch --> 2 hatch early 3rd.
After losing a good amount of SCVs to Larva's initial muta harass, Rush stablized, and then transitioned to Mech after getting on 4 base.
The game eventually went to 6 base Terran vs 7 Base Zerg, and Larva was all over the place with Queens constantly broodlinging Rush's tanks, defilers throwing down dark swarms + plague, scourge killing off science vessels, and ultra/ling swarming all over the map.
Haven't seen lategame Zerg look that good in a long time. Larva looked like an absolute beast vs the Terran mech transition.
Don't really like mech/tech plays off of 1 rax CC against 2 hatch early 3rd, and perhaps the game was already lost allowing Zerg to take their early 3rd with no resistance (in addition to taking economic damage from the first group of mutas)...but wow that was an impressive game from Larva π―π―
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Hi I'm a noob. I played SC:BW for a few years after it came out and since then I've just been a fan. Can anyone help me understand why main base ramp wall-ins are not done anymore? Is it the maps or has something evolved in the META to counter it somehow?
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On November 13 2025 04:30 malathion wrote:
Hi I'm a noob. I played SC:BW for a few years after it came out and since then I've just been a fan. Can anyone help me understand why main base ramp wall-ins are not done anymore? Is it the maps or has something evolved in the META to counter it somehow?
There are several factors, some are dependent on the MU (match-up). In general:
1. Terrans generally expand much earlier than in the past across all three MUs, so a wall doesn't fit their long-term plan.
2. Walls make pathing up and down the ramp a problem, which is especially bad in certain common scenarios (defending vs. Reaver drop, vs Muta, etc.).
MU-specific:
1. TvZ: Walls were never really common in this MU to begin with, and most of the 1 base builds which utilized a wall are out of fashion. I don't know how the modern crop of maps is in terms of making ling-tight walls, but the maps I do know are hit-or-miss, and on some maps it depends on the position.
2. TvT: Walls were never that common in this MU too, but even less so now. They simply don't serve any purpose in the MU.
3. TvP: FE (fast expand) builds are far more common than they used to be (on both sides of the MU), and in-base sim city using Barracks/CC/Depot/Factory is enough to hold Zealot pressure because Terrans have better sim city + Marine micro.
That all being said, plenty of people will still wall in public games and on lower level ladder, simply because it is safe and easy, even if disadvantaged in some areas.
ETA: This thread is basically one user's blog, for any similar questions I recommend this thread, which has far more eyes on it:
https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/220903-simple-questions-simple-answers
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Just watched "Laddernet 2025.11 Soulkey vs Light ZvT @ Roaring Current | Starcraft Remastered" on the NamKraft youtube channel.
Light opened 2 port, Soulkey opened 2.5 hatch + burrow.
After successfully defending the wraiths, and Light getting his expo up, Soulkey tried to double expand and got broken by a timing push by Light (bio+wraiths+valks) --> gg.
Soulkey in general seems very confident vs 2 port plays, but in this case it seems they were perhaps overconfident in trying to double expand.
We will see what they do differently in the future, as we have seen 2 port have some success vs 2.5 hatch plays recently π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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On November 13 2025 09:12 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2025 04:30 malathion wrote:
Hi I'm a noob. I played SC:BW for a few years after it came out and since then I've just been a fan. Can anyone help me understand why main base ramp wall-ins are not done anymore? Is it the maps or has something evolved in the META to counter it somehow? There are several factors, some are dependent on the MU (match-up). In general: 1. Terrans generally expand much earlier than in the past across all three MUs, so a wall doesn't fit their long-term plan. 2. Walls make pathing up and down the ramp a problem, which is especially bad in certain common scenarios (defending vs. Reaver drop, vs Muta, etc.). MU-specific: 1. TvZ: Walls were never really common in this MU to begin with, and most of the 1 base builds which utilized a wall are out of fashion. I don't know how the modern crop of maps is in terms of making ling-tight walls, but the maps I do know are hit-or-miss, and on some maps it depends on the position. 2. TvT: Walls were never that common in this MU too, but even less so now. They simply don't serve any purpose in the MU. 3. TvP: FE (fast expand) builds are far more common than they used to be (on both sides of the MU), and in-base sim city using Barracks/CC/Depot/Factory is enough to hold Zealot pressure because Terrans have better sim city + Marine micro. That all being said, plenty of people will still wall in public games and on lower level ladder, simply because it is safe and easy, even if disadvantaged in some areas. ETA: This thread is basically one user's blog, for any similar questions I recommend this thread, which has far more eyes on it: https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/220903-simple-questions-simple-answers
Yeah, most of the time these days with wall-able/semi-wallable naturals, Terrans are choosing to either wall off at their natural or not wall at all depending on the matchup.
This thread was created as a place to discuss the current (still evolving) strategy and gameplay of Brood War at the highest levels, as well as a place for us to journal our thoughts on the games we watch on pretty much a daily basis.
Once again, not really doing the analysis for anyone else...but if you would like one done of a particular game/games don't hesitate to let us know π«
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Just watched "CadenZie vs. Scarlett Bo9 SHOWMATCH" (game 1) on the ArtosisTV youtube channel.
CadenZie opened overpool, Scarlett opened with a 2 gate in their own main.
After getting scouted by an early probe, CadenZie took their 2nd hatchery at their 3rd base (mineral only) location.
Scarlett was unable to do damage with their early zealots to CadenZie's main, and allowed the zerg player to get 3 bases up before eventually taking down CadenZie's mineral only.
They also opted for a cybernetics core --> robo --> reavers instead of choosing to expand, tried to attack with a slow shuttle, got it sniped by hydras --> gg.
CadenZie seemed to play well, opting to go for hydralisks off of 2 base vs their 1 base opponent, while also getting their 3rd base back up.
It does seem Scarlett blundered a bit in going for the 1 base, 2 gate tech play...ater taking down CadenZie's 3rd, it might have been a better choice to expand, and attempt to play 2 base vs 2 base for as long as possible.
Have seen 2 gate plays give overpool openings problems at times, but have not really seen it too often recently at the professional levels π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched "IF THIS GAME DOESNT PROVE PROTOSS IS IMBALANCED NOTHING WILL" on the eOnzErG youtube channel.
eOnzErG opened overpool --> 3 hatch hydra/ling.
Their protoss opponent opened with a forge fast expand, skipped Stargate, and opted for gateways --> dragoons.
eOnzErG tried to bust the protoss natural, got repelled...and decided to continue with hydra production instead of droning up.
They had very low drone saturation at their natural and 3rd for quite some time, deciding to stay on low drone count even after eventually breaking their opponent's natural and killing off the Nexus.
Eventually the Protoss was able to retake their natural, got their 3rd up as well --> gg.
It seems to us that 3 hatch hydralisk is not as strong as it was once considered to be. If you do not finish the protoss, the build can be very flimsy economically.
In this game, it also appears the zerg player made bad decision in not choosing to drone up for quite some time, with the protoss effectively playing in the dark...but hindsight is 20/20.
It also seems zerglings (or a mix of hydra/ling) can be more effective against mass dragoons than straight up hydralisks π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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On November 08 2025 02:29 perfectspheres wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2025 21:33 mtcn77 wrote:On November 07 2025 07:32 perfectspheres wrote:On October 30 2025 21:29 mtcn77 wrote:On October 19 2025 10:38 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 16:30 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 14:43 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 07:01 mtcn77 wrote:On September 28 2025 06:55 perfectspheres wrote:On September 28 2025 02:50 mtcn77 wrote:
Yeah, we are seeing terrific off meta games from title contenders like flash and larva. Larva reinvented queen play with ensnare and completely put a dead halt to flash's timing push. Imagine we had more Roaring Current games. Pros would be forced to reinvent themselves in the millenial playstyle at island maps. Pretty sure we just watched the Flash vs Larva game that you are talking about from yesterday that is on the 'Artosiscasts' youtube channel titled "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran". Looked like a calculated gamble by Flash, going 13cc against Larva's 12 hatch (at 350 minerals, kind of sloppy π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ). You would usually expect a player like Flash to convert an early advantage like that into a win, but they decided to go 3 starport wraiths/valks -> dropships. They basically threw the game away by spending their resources inefficiently. Wouldn't read too much into it as it looked like Flash was just messing around trying different builds on the open play ladders. You could say the same for Light, too. Larva 3 hatched him. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on dominator, however Roaring Currents is a new kind of map. You cannot punish greed on Roaring Currents. The fortune favors the bold there. I wouldn't say Flash did bad. I would however say he overestimated his skills for reasons above. Haven't seen enough games on Roaring Currents to really speak on it. But yeah, some act like Flash's gameplay is always perfect, it is not. Overconfidence can be a weakness at times. They also have been known to make occasional strategic blunders (i.e. stubbornly going upgrade terran vs protoss, or giving away a few games vs zerg by going 13/14cc against overmatched opponents). There is Effort vs Sharp, Speed vs Hero, Larva vs Light, Larva vs Flash. They are all blockbusters. I'm yet to see a bad one. The reason is the game mechanics. You start with a big L that eliminates spawn luck of the draw, but also eliminates lucky scouting advantage. Then, tech enables huge air shortcut, there hasn't been a map with air shortcut. Would do an analysis of those games if we could...tried finding some of those games on youtube/the small VOD thread and couldn't π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ Here you go: Effort vs Sharp; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=pjGXmENhPU4 Speed vs Hero; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=0LqDFkFvCQE Light vs Shine; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=ArHFtIwm1ak Larva vs Flash; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=Tvn5j1MjrPk Sharp vs Larva; + Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/watch?v=PzmipsbRr4w Already did an analysis of the Larva vs Flash game, but just watched the Sharp vs Larva game and here are our thoughts: Sharp opened fac-->starport-->cc-->science vessels. Larva opened 2.5 hatch with their 3rd base finishing around 6:30. Sharp transitioned into bio, then did a timing attack and took down Larva's 3rd base. You would think this would win them the game, but they allowed Larva to get a new 3rd and 4th base at the island expos. It seems Sharp stayed on 2 base too long, and after eventually getting their 3rd and 4th base up, then losing their 4th and building Battlecruisers, they decided to gg. Kind of a whatever game. Sharp probably could have won by being more dilligent in sniffing out new bases from Larva after taking down their original 3rd, but hindsight is 20/20 π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ Ignore my Flash Larva game. I sent it because I couldn't find the timeline when Larva ultralisk dropped Sharp in the other game. It is at 17:30. I found that interesting. Yeah it looks like Larva was thinking of dropping one of Sharp's bases, but decided to do a defensive drop instead. As for the Flash vs Larva game, the analysis for it is on one of the first posts on this thread, it's the "FlaSh inventing Sky Terran" game. Once again, appreciate the game recommendations π―π―
I recommended it based on the drop looking very similar to how prime Jaedong used to drop very frequently. I think dropping really enhances the zerg faction. They have the weakest units, however the cheapest and the strongest transport units out of all three factions.
On November 13 2025 04:30 malathion wrote:
Hi I'm a noob. I played SC:BW for a few years after it came out and since then I've just been a fan. Can anyone help me understand why main base ramp wall-ins are not done anymore? Is it the maps or has something evolved in the META to counter it somehow?
Starcraft meta is not related to what works, but what given APM works best. That is why prime Jaedong and Queen seemed like they invented a new meta with queens and Flash used SK Terran every game. It is APM intensive, but works. Larva seems to be the new rebel. Everyone claims he isn't a pro, yet he cuts right across the roster of players. Apart from a minute timing push that only Flash can pull off, nothing beats his queen play.
Such is the 1 base wall. Sometime in the past, protoss players whined until natural bases got walled off. That made FE walls possible. Terrans players saw this and started fast expanding themselves, too. It is just on an APM reward basis to work.
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Just watched "Laddernet 2025.11 Rush vs Queen TvZ @ Metropolis | Starcraft Commentary"
Rush opened 2 rax academy, Queen opened with a 2.5 hatchery build, and started their 3rd base around 6:45.
After a few skirmishes, Rush pushed Queen's natural with a few valkyries+tanks in addition to their bio army --> gg.
Pretty quick and relatively unremarkable game.
It seems to us that this particular variation of the 2.5 hatchery build which some might consider "safe" just winds up putting the zerg player behind.
The Soma vs Speed game we did an analysis of recently, where Soma choose to go relatively low drone count, get a stronger midgame army, and leapfrog the Terran later economically while getting to 4 base showed one of the ways 2.5 hatchery can be successful against Terran.
It will be interesting to see how this matchup evolves π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched "Laddernet 2025.11 Rush vs Soma TvZ @ Pole Star | Starcraft Remastered" on the NamKraft youtube channel.
Soma opened up 2 hatch --> early 3rd.
Rush opened 2 rax academy.
Soma got their mutalisks out, did some economic damage to Rush at their main mineral line...Rush then amassed a few control groups of medic marines, pushed Soma's Natural, won the battle there --> gg.
Not too much to say about this one, pretty standard example of 2rax academy > 2 hatch early 3rd.
We have seen Zerg have some success vs. Terran with a few different strategies lately, but this wasn't it.
It will be interesting to see what some of the top Zerg players decide to do to counter the variety of Terran build orders we have been seing π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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On November 17 2025 15:22 perfectspheres wrote:
Just watched "IF THIS GAME DOESNT PROVE PROTOSS IS IMBALANCED NOTHING WILL" on the eOnzErG youtube channel.
eOnzErG opened overpool --> 3 hatch hydra/ling.
Their protoss opponent opened with a forge fast expand, skipped Stargate, and opted for gateways --> dragoons.
eOnzErG tried to bust the protoss natural, got repelled...and decided to continue with hydra production instead of droning up.
They had very low drone saturation at their natural and 3rd for quite some time, deciding to stay on low drone count even after eventually breaking their opponent's natural and killing off the Nexus.
Eventually the Protoss was able to retake their natural, got their 3rd up as well --> gg.
It seems to us that 3 hatch hydralisk is not as strong as it was once considered to be. If you do not finish the protoss, the build can be very flimsy economically.
In this game, it also appears the zerg player made bad decision in not choosing to drone up for quite some time, with the protoss effectively playing in the dark...but hindsight is 20/20.
It also seems zerglings (or a mix of hydra/ling) can be more effective against mass dragoons than straight up hydralisks π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
Just watched Soma vs Best S4W4 KCM game. I hold on to my view that hydralisks are not good units against a good millenial protoss.
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On November 21 2025 07:06 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2025 15:22 perfectspheres wrote:
Just watched "IF THIS GAME DOESNT PROVE PROTOSS IS IMBALANCED NOTHING WILL" on the eOnzErG youtube channel.
eOnzErG opened overpool --> 3 hatch hydra/ling.
Their protoss opponent opened with a forge fast expand, skipped Stargate, and opted for gateways --> dragoons.
eOnzErG tried to bust the protoss natural, got repelled...and decided to continue with hydra production instead of droning up.
They had very low drone saturation at their natural and 3rd for quite some time, deciding to stay on low drone count even after eventually breaking their opponent's natural and killing off the Nexus.
Eventually the Protoss was able to retake their natural, got their 3rd up as well --> gg.
It seems to us that 3 hatch hydralisk is not as strong as it was once considered to be. If you do not finish the protoss, the build can be very flimsy economically.
In this game, it also appears the zerg player made bad decision in not choosing to drone up for quite some time, with the protoss effectively playing in the dark...but hindsight is 20/20.
It also seems zerglings (or a mix of hydra/ling) can be more effective against mass dragoons than straight up hydralisks π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ Just watched Soma vs Best S4W4 KCM game. I hold on to my view that hydralisks are not good units against a good millenial protoss.
They're good, it just seems like hydra/ling is a more effective composition vs protoss.
4 zerglings = 100 minerals --> 140 hp (16 shots from dragoons, not counting regeneration due to them having 35 hp a piece).
4 zerglings also do 37.5 damage (un-upgraded) in the time it takes a hydralisk to fire 1 shot (10 explosive damage).
1 hydra = 75 minerals/25 gas (100 combined resources) --> 80 hp (6 shots from dragoons).
Of course you have to take into account the larva cost, but even 2 zerglings is probably a better investment against straight up dragoons than a hydralisk π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched "Laddernet 2025.11 Soma vs Royal ZvT @ Dominator | Starcraft Remastered" on the NamKraft youtube channel.
Royal opened 13cc --> mech.
Soma opened 2.5 hatch, and took their 3rd base around 6 minutes.
After taking some economic damage from Soma's mutalisks, and getting 5 factories up...Royal pushed across the map with goliaths+tanks, and took down Soma's main and natural.
Soma attempted to counter-attack, killed a good portion of Royal's SCVs, but was unable to stop the Terran mech army arriving at their new 4th base --> gg.
Pretty interesting game, it looked like it could go either way.
Generally don't like 13/14cc --> mech vs 2 hatch plays, as it gives map control to the zerg for a good portion of the early/mid-game...but Soma's 2.5 hatch looked like it gave Royal just enough time to get their army up and squeak out a win.
Perhaps 2 hatch --> early 3rd would have been a better choice against this particular Terran build π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Watched "Laddernet 2025.11 Snow vs Queen PvZ @ Roaring Current | Starcraft Commentary" on the NamKraft youtube channel.
Queen opened 9 pool, Snow opened with a forge fast expand.
Queen got their initial 6 zerglings to Snow's base just as the cannons were finishing, ran by into the main with them, and did some early damage to Snow's economy.
Snow then chose to go 2 Stargate, while Queen got their 4th base started around 5:55.
Queen defended Snow's zealot/corsair timing attacks at their 3rd and 4th bases --> gg.
Not a whole lot to say about this one, it looks like Queen's 9 pool/runby gave them a significant advantage which they used to leapfrog Snow economically into the midgame. At that point all they had to do was defend their 4 bases, as Snow was still only on 2 base.
We have seen a few Zergs have success with 9 pool openings vs Protoss lately, definitely something to keep an eye on in the future π―π―
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Just watched "Laddernet 2025.11 Larva vs Firebathero ZvT @ Dominator | Starcraft Remastered" on the NamKraft youtube channel.
Larva opened with 2 hatch --> early 3rd.
Firebathero opened with a +1 build.
Pretty quick and easy game, Larva did some damage with their mutas to FBH's economy, then held off the Terran's timing push at their natural and countered with lurkers --> gg.
Didn't necessarily see anything wrong with FBH's play, but the ease with which Larva handled them in this game really goes to show how much the meta has evolved in recent days π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched "Laddernet 2025.11 Soulkey vs Scan ZvT @ Radeon | Starcraft Commentary" on the NamKraft youtube channel.
Soulkey opened with an 11 hatch, Scan opened with a 14cc.
Soulkey went 2 hatch, and chose to produce a good amount of zerglings and mutalisks, while delaying their 3rd hatchery until almost 10:00 (9:50).
They did kill a good amount of SCVs with their initial mutalisk harass, but it seems like they compounded the economic disadvantage they were already at by opting for a late 3rd base.
Scan eventually got to 5 base, while Soulkey got to 6 base...but Soulkey was unable to hold off the constant Terran pressure --> gg.
Very interesting game, Scan made a calculated gamble in going for the 14cc, and it seemed to pay off...while Soulkey seemed to blunder in choosing to delay their 3rd base for so long, while not finishing or doing crippling damage to the Terran.
Soulkey seems to have a excellent understanding of this matchup in terms of balancing drones vs. attack units, but in this case it appears the 14cc in addition to the late 3rd base was too much to come back from π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched "Bye Bye, Hatchery ?" on the ArtosisCasts youtube channel.
Stork vs Effort PvZ.
Stork opened with a 2 gate at their natural, while Effort opened with a 9pool.
Stork continued producing zealots off their 2 gate, while Effort was forced to constantly produce zerglings.
As a result, Effort was never able to effectively build up their drone count...and eventually was unable to defend the constant zealot pressure --> gg.
Pretty quick game. We have seen Zerg have some success with 9pool recently (against 1 gate expand, forge fast expand), but it seems like a build order loss (or strong disadvantage) vs 2 gate.
Perhaps that is why we don't see it more frequently, as often times top professional players opt for safe openings rather than openers which can result in easy build order wins for their opponent π―π―
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Just watched "CadenZie vs Scarlett Bo9 SHOWMATCH" on the ArtosisTV youtube channel.
Scarlett opened 12nex, CadenZie opened with an overpool --> 2 hatchery hydralisk drop.
After showing some pressure at Scarlett's natural, CadenZie got a few hydras and zerglings into Scarlett's main...but was unsuccessful in doing any significant damage to their Protoss opponent.
Cheese successfully defended, Scarlett's macro kicked in --> gg.
Not the best game honestly, it was entertaining...but after seeing a failed 5 pool in the previous game, would kind of like to see a more standard-ish game from both players just to see how their mechanics stack up against some of the top professionals.
It was a showmatch, so some varied builds are kind of to be expected...but still, it was interesting to see a Zerg player choose to attempt a cheesy build 2 games in a row against a Protoss opponent ππ
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Just watched "Proceedin'! Rush! π°π· (T) vs Speed! π°π· (T) on Dominator! - Starcraft - Brood War" on the Falcon Paladin youtube channel.
Speed opened 1 rax cc, Rush opened 1 factory cc.
Rush took the early positional and army advantage, pumping out a good amount of vultures with mines...while Speed seemed content to sit in their base and macro off their 1 rax cc economy.
You would think Speed would be at an economic advantage, but at about 7:20 into the game they were down 46-41 in SCVs, and 80-64 in supply.
Both players continued expanding, with each eventually getting to 5 base...but it seems like the early army advantage, as well as the surprising disparity in SCVs was too much for Speed to overcome --> gg.
TvT is an interesting matchup...have seen a game or two where players have been successful using 2 factory plays...but it seems other openers are more popular due to their perceived economic strength.
In our opinion, this matchup is highly positionally based, and often times taking an early army and positional advantage can outweigh the potential benefits of getting an earlier expansion (as evidenced in this game) π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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On December 04 2025 17:38 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Are you AI?
No.
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Just watched "π₯KCM 2025 S4 W6 Set 2 @ Pole Star | Starcraft Commentary" on the NamKraft youtube channel.
Shine vs Royal ZvT
Shine opened 3 hatch before pool, Royal opened 1 rax cc (2 supply variant) into +1 5rax.
After scouting Shine's 3 hatch before pool, Royal pushed across the map with 2 marines and killed 2 of Shine's drones.
After stabilizing, and with both players on a 2 base economy, Royal macroed up, easily pushed across the map and broke Shine's natural --> gg.
3 hatchery play seems to have fallen out of favor at the top levels (aside from the 3 hatch at 3 base variations we have seen a few zerg players have success with).
It should be a given...but from what we've seen, sitting on a 2 base Zerg economy vs 2 base Terran for any significant period of time does not seem to work out well for Zerg players.
Not sure what Shine's plan was in this particular game, as we have seen glimses of high level play from them...but this was not it π€π€
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Have been feeling under the weather a bit lately, been watching games....but just haven't felt up to writing down any analysis.
Just watched "Pros: STOP OPENING LIKE THIS!!" on the ArtosisCasts youtube channel.
Sharp vs Paralyze TvP.
Sharp opened vulture expand (1 fac cc), Paralyze opened with a gateway at their own natural, and attacked with an early zealot and dragoons.
Sharp successfully defended, got their expansion up...and attempted to pressure the protoss off 1 factory production (2 tanks, 3 marines, 1 scv, rallied vultures).
Paralyze defended the attack, then attempted to counter the Terran player with a reaver and shuttle, lost their shuttle --> gg.
Pretty quick and easy game, extremely solid play from Sharp. They successfully handled the early Protoss shenanigans, defended the reaver harass, and found themselves at a considerable advantage going into the midgame.
Perhaps Paralyze could have fought back, but after being unsuccessful with their early pressure, in addition to having their Reaver attack effectively defended...they apparently did not want to play on, with their 3rd base still not started at 8:20.
It seems to us that Reaver play from Protoss against Terran often times can just put you behind against a strong player.
Have spoken about it before, but any decent Terran player is not going to just hand out free wins against tech plays (reaver/dt). They are really forced to prepare with academy/armory/ebay/turrets anyway, so oftentimes an early 3rd base seems like the better choice from a Protoss perspective π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Just watched "2025.12 Soma vs Royal ZvT @ Pole Star | Starcraft Commentary" on the NamKraft YouTube channel.
Soma opened 2.5 hatch, Royal opened with 2 port wraith.
Royal attacked with their wraiths. Upon seeing the 2 port play from the Terran player, Soma decided to counter with hydra/muta.
Royal did considerable damage (got Soma down to 3 drones at one point), defended the Zerg counter attack --> gg.
Once again...Terran players are having some success with 2 port vs. 2
5 hatch recently...just not necessarily sure it is a long term sustainable strategy.
In this game, Soma chose to do a basically all-in counter-attack. If Terran continues to have success with 2 port vs 2.5 hatch, Zerg will probably have to do something differently in order to avoid giving up build order wins π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Hey guys, was in the hospital for the last 2 weeks...and didn't get a chance to watch any Brood War π€¦ββοΈπ€¦ββοΈ
...but...
Just watched "3 Factories..... could this become standard?" on the ArtosisCasts youtube channel.
FanTaSy vs Air TvP.
Fantasy opened with a factory expand, Air opened with range expand.
Fantasy chose to get an academy after their 2nd factory, deciding to postpone their armory/ebay in favor of a faster 3rd factory.
They then tried a blind 3 tank push, lost their initial army, took catastrophic damage from the incoming reaver, as well as losing their 3rd cc --> gg.
Did see one game where a Terran decided to get 3 factories and pump speed vultures before academy/armory/ebay, but in this case it seems Fantasy blundered by trying to skip armory/ebay, attack, AND take 3rd base off 3 factories.
Will mention that this game was played on the ladder, where it seems like many players test out new builds, so take what see with a grain of salt π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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Thanks for all these posts! I am gonna try and go through them after watching the games. Good to see some interesting analyses!
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On January 02 2026 08:24 aingel wrote:
Thanks for all these posts! I am gonna try and go through them after watching the games. Good to see some interesting analyses!
Yeah no problem!
We usually watch at least 1 BW game a day, and was looking for a place to share our thoughts and discuss the current trends in strategy etc.
Once again if you guys have any game recommendations or games you would like an analysis done of, don't hesitate to ask! π―π―
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Just watched "Laddernet 2025.12 Light vs Soma TvZ @ Polypoid | Starcraft Remastered" on the NamKraft youtube channel.
Light opened 1 rax CC (1 supply/15cc variant) --> 2 rax academy, Soma opened with 2 hatch muta --> early 3rd.
Just before Soma's mutalisks popped, Light moved out with about a control group of medic/marines and searched for Soma's 3rd base.
They didn't find it, Soma cleaned up the initial Terran attack force, and Light never really recovered --> gg.
The general consensus was that 2 rax academy > 2 hatch early 3rd...but have seen a few times now where Zerg players have chosen to take unconventional/unsuspected 3rd base locations and had success.
If Terran is unable to find Zerg's 3rd base in time, they can find themselves in trouble heading into the midgame.
Not necessarily sure it is a strategy to live on, just praying that Terran will not find you...but it's definitely something to keep an eye on π€·ββοΈπ€·ββοΈ
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EPT
