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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Now let me first tell you that this is an open-ended guide, so everyone who is willing may and should contribute. This thread will deal with the right PvZ Forge FE formations. A right formation usually means:
1) One gateway and one forge block the entrance.
2) There is exactly one spot zerglings can pass through.
3) That spot is 1-matrix wide to allow passage of dragoons.
4) Pylon placement leaves rom for cannons so that both forge and gateway are in range.
Now, if the wall-in meets all the requirements listed above, a protoss will generally have a MUCH easier time vs whatever zergling attacks that might happen. In fact, when the gap is blocked by zealots not probes, a zergling all-in is pretty much totally ineffective.
Important notice #1: on many maps perfect wall-ins are impossible. So post those that you find best for the given map and the given location.
Important notice #2: these wall-ins are optimized vs zergling aggression. They are NOT the best ones vs hydra as most of them leave your forge exposed to hydra fire just due to their nature.
Important notice #3: They are surely not the only way to block your choke. Experiment is the king of all sciences.
EDIT: As more general wall-in rules:
- Forge below gateway is impassable.
- Usually gateway below obstacle is passable despite looking very tight
- Forge below obstacles is usually impassable.
- Gateway above obstacle is usually impassable, but make sure you don't trap your zealots like in that famous game when some protoss went 2 gate proxy and trapped his initial zealots, so he gg'd before even being scouted.
- Gateway to the left of an obstacle is often impassable.
- Forge to the right of an obstacle is oten impassable.
- Forge is generally more likely to block than gateway.
- Pylons don't block anything except minerals.
- Minerals have 100% collision size (2 matrices), therefore, they block with nearly anything.
So, I'll start with Tau Cross and Longinus (EDIT: I will actually update the OP with all maps done here):
+ Show Spoiler [Longinus] +3 o'clock: 7 o'clock: 11 o'clock:
+ Show Spoiler [Tau Cross] +2 o'clock: 10 o'clock: 7 o'clock: Kudos for the last two goes to ZerG~LegenD
+ Show Spoiler [Blue Storm] +
+ Show Spoiler [Python] +6 o'clock: 12 o'clock: 9 o'clock: 3 o'clock: Kudos to ZerG~LegenD and humblegar
+ Show Spoiler [Luna] +Note that at this moment I've only seen one wall-in that I've found satisfactory. Depending on further feedback the wall-ins that didn't get here now might get through if noone finds better. 5 o'clock: Kudos to ZerG~LegenD
+ Show Spoiler [Shin Peaks of Baek-Du] +top: bottom: Kudos to humblegar
"That should be all for now. Not that this took me a great effort to do, but after watching the WGT reppack I was downright amazed at how many tosses die to zerglings due to poor building placement. I urge everyone who has wall-ins for other maps memorized to post their screenies."
EDIT: OP massively updated. This will now be kept more or less up to date. Note that the OP will only contain one wall-in for each position, usually it will be the best one posted up to date^^
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
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They work fine for me.
Thanks for the images, hope they'll prove to be useful.
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Images are fine to me too.
Great stuff.
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wich units can get through that ? Lings cant get in ? It confuses me a little since it seems there is alot of room for units to get through
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Images work for me. There should be enough of a space so goons can pass through, but only 1 route for lings to get through, so they can't flood past. Good idea, this will help me a lot. I would like to request python images.
Thanks a lot!
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On November 18 2007 22:32 besiger.cry wrote:
wich units can get through that ? Lings cant get in ? It confuses me a little since it seems there is alot of room for units to get through
pretty much every unit can.
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On November 18 2007 22:32 besiger.cry wrote:
wich units can get through that ? Lings cant get in ? It confuses me a little since it seems there is alot of room for units to get through
The point is to make the enemy's units come in single file when they try to attack your base, and to also leave room for your own units to exit to go on the offensive when the time is right.
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also the point is to put 2 zealot between the buildings to form a complete blockade in early battles and let the cannons do free damage. ^^
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I think it would be useful if you included the conditions where zerglings can't pass. Like, sometimes they can pass underneath the gateway, sometimes they can't, and I believe there's a way to do a perfect gateway/forge wall-in where lings can't pass through the gap. It's one of those things that I never quite understood.
Everytime I watch a pro FE, I'm like "Oh Ooooh, lings are gonna pass thr.... oh wait nevermind no they're not"
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Forge above obstacle and gate above forge is unpassable.
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Very nice, thanks for posting, but do you always need 2 cannons? Also, these wall-ins leave your gates and forge open to hydra fire, which the zerg will invariably do, due to the fact that you have made his zergling aggression ineffective.
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Good guide, I've been having problems with this and having to make 4+ cannons when zergs put pressure on me cause I didn't know how to block properly before.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On November 19 2007 03:06 relaxxl wrote:
Very nice, thanks for posting, but do you always need 2 cannons? Also, these wall-ins leave your gates and forge open to hydra fire, which the zerg will invariably do, due to the fact that you have made his zergling aggression ineffective.
1) 2 cannons on those screenies indicate wuth such a wall-in, there is room to put cannons in should you need them. The number of cannons you build is totally dependent on the number of lings you see, with 12 hatch eco builds, you can usually skip the second one before core/tech.
2) These blocks' main function is not to stop ling or hydra all-ins, it's the perfect counter to speedling runs with low ling number that, is successful, hurt your economy much more than zerg's. He doesn't have to resort to hydra all-in afterwards and can continue with his normal lair tech builds.
3) Other wall-ins are viable with zealot blocks, the thing is, speedlings often come before you have any zealots, and 1-matrix-wide chokes are quite easy to block with 2 probes. It is happening because probes have a larger collision size than zealots and they can't pass in many chokes zealots can. Since probe doesn't have hold position, it is quite hard to make it stand right behind the choke, in the wall-in depicted above, they are standing inside it. For example, 12 pool on Longinus. You still build a 14 nex, forge, 2 cannons (you may risk building one, but I wouldn't) and then close the wall-in with a gateway. When lings come, you simply won't have the zealots to block the choke with. There, probes come in handy. The best way to block is ofc blocking 0-matrix-wide, but you will have trouble getting any units other than zealots out later on. Sometimes progamers even sacrifice their gateway later to get a solid defense early-on.
4) I haven't been able to figure out a pattern of how buildings interact with terrain on different tilesets. Sometimes lings pass through extremely tight chokes you never thought were passable, sometimes they can't go through gaps ridiculously wide (refer to the screenshot on Longinus 11 main - the gap between the gateway and the cliff looks very wide, but it is in fact impassable).
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Braavos36374 Posts
Do Python and Blue storm!
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These two variants are actually slightly better than the ones in the op, as the lings has to run a slightly longer path when passing the cannons.
Oh, I'll say it agaim. Building above obstacle is unpassable and gate above forge is unpassable.
I think building to the right/left of obstacle is unpassable but im not sure of it. Building below obstacle is passable, mostly.
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Thank you very much for the information. This may be the answer to my 9 pool losses
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United States24652 Posts
For python, aren't the entrances to the natural too big to wall? There are probably smart formations that protect the ramp and the nexus, but not as well as in the two maps shown above.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
But if you go 10 forge, like I do, and see that he's 9 pooling - you only have time to lay down two cannons I thought, and no additional gateway? Wouldn't your layouts be very open to zergling aggression then?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1921/longinus3bx6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5922/longinus7ui7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3677/longinus11il2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2900/taucross2so0.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7426/25212389bv9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3609/wallinbsfreebottomxu2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1858/wallinbsfreemirrortopku8.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8495/scscrnshot111907201430as1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/6701/pyth12zt0.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/1316/luna5md5.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1415/peaks6am8.jpg)
