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Active: 27001 users

! [G] Forge FE wall-ins on popular maps.

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
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BluzMan
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Russian Federation4235 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-23 12:31:00
November 18 2007 10:06 GMT
#1
Now let me first tell you that this is an open-ended guide, so everyone who is willing may and should contribute. This thread will deal with the right PvZ Forge FE formations. A right formation usually means:

1) One gateway and one forge block the entrance.
2) There is exactly one spot zerglings can pass through.
3) That spot is 1-matrix wide to allow passage of dragoons.
4) Pylon placement leaves rom for cannons so that both forge and gateway are in range.

Now, if the wall-in meets all the requirements listed above, a protoss will generally have a MUCH easier time vs whatever zergling attacks that might happen. In fact, when the gap is blocked by zealots not probes, a zergling all-in is pretty much totally ineffective.

Important notice #1: on many maps perfect wall-ins are impossible. So post those that you find best for the given map and the given location.

Important notice #2: these wall-ins are optimized vs zergling aggression. They are NOT the best ones vs hydra as most of them leave your forge exposed to hydra fire just due to their nature.

Important notice #3: They are surely not the only way to block your choke. Experiment is the king of all sciences.

EDIT: As more general wall-in rules:

- Forge below gateway is impassable.
- Usually gateway below obstacle is passable despite looking very tight
- Forge below obstacles is usually impassable.
- Gateway above obstacle is usually impassable, but make sure you don't trap your zealots like in that famous game when some protoss went 2 gate proxy and trapped his initial zealots, so he gg'd before even being scouted.
- Gateway to the left of an obstacle is often impassable.
- Forge to the right of an obstacle is oten impassable.
- Forge is generally more likely to block than gateway.
- Pylons don't block anything except minerals.
- Minerals have 100% collision size (2 matrices), therefore, they block with nearly anything.

So, I'll start with Tau Cross and Longinus (EDIT: I will actually update the OP with all maps done here):


+ Show Spoiler [Longinus] +

3 o'clock:
[image loading]


7 o'clock:
[image loading]


11 o'clock:
[image loading]



+ Show Spoiler [Tau Cross] +

2 o'clock:
[image loading]


10 o'clock:
[image loading]


7 o'clock:
[image loading]


Kudos for the last two goes to ZerG~LegenD


+ Show Spoiler [Blue Storm] +

bottom:
[image loading]


top:
[image loading]



+ Show Spoiler [Python] +

6 o'clock:
[image loading]


12 o'clock:
[image loading]


9 o'clock:
[image loading]


3 o'clock:
[image loading]


Kudos to ZerG~LegenD and humblegar


+ Show Spoiler [Luna] +

Note that at this moment I've only seen one wall-in that I've found satisfactory. Depending on further feedback the wall-ins that didn't get here now might get through if noone finds better.

5 o'clock:
[image loading]


Kudos to ZerG~LegenD


+ Show Spoiler [Shin Peaks of Baek-Du] +

top:
[image loading]


bottom:
[image loading]


Kudos to humblegar


"That should be all for now. Not that this took me a great effort to do, but after watching the WGT reppack I was downright amazed at how many tosses die to zerglings due to poor building placement. I urge everyone who has wall-ins for other maps memorized to post their screenies."

EDIT: OP massively updated. This will now be kept more or less up to date. Note that the OP will only contain one wall-in for each position, usually it will be the best one posted up to date^^
You want 20 good men, but you need a bad pussy.
SoMuchBetter
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia10606 Posts
November 18 2007 10:08 GMT
#2
none of ur images work
AUSSIESCUM
TeamLiquid eSTROgeneral #1 • RIP
BluzMan
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Russian Federation4235 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-18 10:09:05
November 18 2007 10:08 GMT
#3
Really? ^^
You want 20 good men, but you need a bad pussy.
FirstBorn
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Romania3955 Posts
November 18 2007 10:16 GMT
#4
They work fine for me.

Thanks for the images, hope they'll prove to be useful.
SonuvBob: Yes, the majority of TL is college-aged, and thus clearly stupid.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
November 18 2007 12:59 GMT
#5
Images are fine to me too.

Great stuff.
besiger
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
Croatia2452 Posts
November 18 2007 13:32 GMT
#6
wich units can get through that ? Lings cant get in ? It confuses me a little since it seems there is alot of room for units to get through
A weak will coupled with delusions of grandeur
Nick_54
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2230 Posts
November 18 2007 15:35 GMT
#7
Images work for me. There should be enough of a space so goons can pass through, but only 1 route for lings to get through, so they can't flood past. Good idea, this will help me a lot. I would like to request python images.

Thanks a lot!
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
November 18 2007 15:41 GMT
#8
On November 18 2007 22:32 besiger.cry wrote:
wich units can get through that ? Lings cant get in ? It confuses me a little since it seems there is alot of room for units to get through


pretty much every unit can.
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
November 18 2007 16:33 GMT
#9
On November 18 2007 22:32 besiger.cry wrote:
wich units can get through that ? Lings cant get in ? It confuses me a little since it seems there is alot of room for units to get through

The point is to make the enemy's units come in single file when they try to attack your base, and to also leave room for your own units to exit to go on the offensive when the time is right.
Peace~
w3jjjj
Profile Joined April 2007
United States760 Posts
November 18 2007 17:03 GMT
#10
also the point is to put 2 zealot between the buildings to form a complete blockade in early battles and let the cannons do free damage. ^^
Chuck Norris can salvage his opponent's structures.
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
November 18 2007 17:23 GMT
#11
I think it would be useful if you included the conditions where zerglings can't pass. Like, sometimes they can pass underneath the gateway, sometimes they can't, and I believe there's a way to do a perfect gateway/forge wall-in where lings can't pass through the gap. It's one of those things that I never quite understood.

Everytime I watch a pro FE, I'm like "Oh Ooooh, lings are gonna pass thr.... oh wait nevermind no they're not"
Trucy Wright is hot
ZerG~LegenD
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Sweden1179 Posts
November 18 2007 17:46 GMT
#12
Forge above obstacle and gate above forge is unpassable.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
relaxxl
Profile Joined June 2007
Japan78 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-18 18:08:09
November 18 2007 18:06 GMT
#13
Very nice, thanks for posting, but do you always need 2 cannons? Also, these wall-ins leave your gates and forge open to hydra fire, which the zerg will invariably do, due to the fact that you have made his zergling aggression ineffective.
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
November 18 2007 18:12 GMT
#14
Good guide, I've been having problems with this and having to make 4+ cannons when zergs put pressure on me cause I didn't know how to block properly before.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
BluzMan
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Russian Federation4235 Posts
November 18 2007 19:14 GMT
#15
On November 19 2007 03:06 relaxxl wrote:
Very nice, thanks for posting, but do you always need 2 cannons? Also, these wall-ins leave your gates and forge open to hydra fire, which the zerg will invariably do, due to the fact that you have made his zergling aggression ineffective.


1) 2 cannons on those screenies indicate wuth such a wall-in, there is room to put cannons in should you need them. The number of cannons you build is totally dependent on the number of lings you see, with 12 hatch eco builds, you can usually skip the second one before core/tech.

2) These blocks' main function is not to stop ling or hydra all-ins, it's the perfect counter to speedling runs with low ling number that, is successful, hurt your economy much more than zerg's. He doesn't have to resort to hydra all-in afterwards and can continue with his normal lair tech builds.

3) Other wall-ins are viable with zealot blocks, the thing is, speedlings often come before you have any zealots, and 1-matrix-wide chokes are quite easy to block with 2 probes. It is happening because probes have a larger collision size than zealots and they can't pass in many chokes zealots can. Since probe doesn't have hold position, it is quite hard to make it stand right behind the choke, in the wall-in depicted above, they are standing inside it. For example, 12 pool on Longinus. You still build a 14 nex, forge, 2 cannons (you may risk building one, but I wouldn't) and then close the wall-in with a gateway. When lings come, you simply won't have the zealots to block the choke with. There, probes come in handy. The best way to block is ofc blocking 0-matrix-wide, but you will have trouble getting any units other than zealots out later on. Sometimes progamers even sacrifice their gateway later to get a solid defense early-on.

4) I haven't been able to figure out a pattern of how buildings interact with terrain on different tilesets. Sometimes lings pass through extremely tight chokes you never thought were passable, sometimes they can't go through gaps ridiculously wide (refer to the screenshot on Longinus 11 main - the gap between the gateway and the cliff looks very wide, but it is in fact impassable).
You want 20 good men, but you need a bad pussy.
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36374 Posts
November 18 2007 19:29 GMT
#16
Do Python and Blue storm!
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
ZerG~LegenD
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Sweden1179 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-18 22:14:52
November 18 2007 22:10 GMT
#17
These two variants are actually slightly better than the ones in the op, as the lings has to run a slightly longer path when passing the cannons.

[image loading]


[image loading]


Oh, I'll say it agaim. Building above obstacle is unpassable and gate above forge is unpassable.
I think building to the right/left of obstacle is unpassable but im not sure of it. Building below obstacle is passable, mostly.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
xBTx
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Canada542 Posts
November 18 2007 22:45 GMT
#18
Thank you very much for the information. This may be the answer to my 9 pool losses
stuffing feathers up your butt doesnt make you a chicken
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24648 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-18 22:50:33
November 18 2007 22:50 GMT
#19
For python, aren't the entrances to the natural too big to wall? There are probably smart formations that protect the ramp and the nexus, but not as well as in the two maps shown above.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
November 18 2007 23:03 GMT
#20
But if you go 10 forge, like I do, and see that he's 9 pooling - you only have time to lay down two cannons I thought, and no additional gateway? Wouldn't your layouts be very open to zergling aggression then?
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
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