Now let me first tell you that this is an open-ended guide, so everyone who is willing may and should contribute. This thread will deal with the right PvZ Forge FE formations. A right formation usually means:
1) One gateway and one forge block the entrance. 2) There is exactly one spot zerglings can pass through. 3) That spot is 1-matrix wide to allow passage of dragoons. 4) Pylon placement leaves rom for cannons so that both forge and gateway are in range.
Now, if the wall-in meets all the requirements listed above, a protoss will generally have a MUCH easier time vs whatever zergling attacks that might happen. In fact, when the gap is blocked by zealots not probes, a zergling all-in is pretty much totally ineffective.
Important notice #1: on many maps perfect wall-ins are impossible. So post those that you find best for the given map and the given location.
Important notice #2: these wall-ins are optimized vs zergling aggression. They are NOT the best ones vs hydra as most of them leave your forge exposed to hydra fire just due to their nature.
Important notice #3: They are surely not the only way to block your choke. Experiment is the king of all sciences.
EDIT: As more general wall-in rules:
- Forge below gateway is impassable. - Usually gateway below obstacle is passable despite looking very tight - Forge below obstacles is usually impassable. - Gateway above obstacle is usually impassable, but make sure you don't trap your zealots like in that famous game when some protoss went 2 gate proxy and trapped his initial zealots, so he gg'd before even being scouted. - Gateway to the left of an obstacle is often impassable. - Forge to the right of an obstacle is oten impassable. - Forge is generally more likely to block than gateway. - Pylons don't block anything except minerals. - Minerals have 100% collision size (2 matrices), therefore, they block with nearly anything.
So, I'll start with Tau Cross and Longinus (EDIT: I will actually update the OP with all maps done here):
Note that at this moment I've only seen one wall-in that I've found satisfactory. Depending on further feedback the wall-ins that didn't get here now might get through if noone finds better.
"That should be all for now. Not that this took me a great effort to do, but after watching the WGT reppack I was downright amazed at how many tosses die to zerglings due to poor building placement. I urge everyone who has wall-ins for other maps memorized to post their screenies."
EDIT: OP massively updated. This will now be kept more or less up to date. Note that the OP will only contain one wall-in for each position, usually it will be the best one posted up to date^^
Images work for me. There should be enough of a space so goons can pass through, but only 1 route for lings to get through, so they can't flood past. Good idea, this will help me a lot. I would like to request python images.
On November 18 2007 22:32 besiger.cry wrote: wich units can get through that ? Lings cant get in ? It confuses me a little since it seems there is alot of room for units to get through
On November 18 2007 22:32 besiger.cry wrote: wich units can get through that ? Lings cant get in ? It confuses me a little since it seems there is alot of room for units to get through
The point is to make the enemy's units come in single file when they try to attack your base, and to also leave room for your own units to exit to go on the offensive when the time is right.
I think it would be useful if you included the conditions where zerglings can't pass. Like, sometimes they can pass underneath the gateway, sometimes they can't, and I believe there's a way to do a perfect gateway/forge wall-in where lings can't pass through the gap. It's one of those things that I never quite understood.
Everytime I watch a pro FE, I'm like "Oh Ooooh, lings are gonna pass thr.... oh wait nevermind no they're not"
Very nice, thanks for posting, but do you always need 2 cannons? Also, these wall-ins leave your gates and forge open to hydra fire, which the zerg will invariably do, due to the fact that you have made his zergling aggression ineffective.
Good guide, I've been having problems with this and having to make 4+ cannons when zergs put pressure on me cause I didn't know how to block properly before.
On November 19 2007 03:06 relaxxl wrote: Very nice, thanks for posting, but do you always need 2 cannons? Also, these wall-ins leave your gates and forge open to hydra fire, which the zerg will invariably do, due to the fact that you have made his zergling aggression ineffective.
1) 2 cannons on those screenies indicate wuth such a wall-in, there is room to put cannons in should you need them. The number of cannons you build is totally dependent on the number of lings you see, with 12 hatch eco builds, you can usually skip the second one before core/tech.
2) These blocks' main function is not to stop ling or hydra all-ins, it's the perfect counter to speedling runs with low ling number that, is successful, hurt your economy much more than zerg's. He doesn't have to resort to hydra all-in afterwards and can continue with his normal lair tech builds.
3) Other wall-ins are viable with zealot blocks, the thing is, speedlings often come before you have any zealots, and 1-matrix-wide chokes are quite easy to block with 2 probes. It is happening because probes have a larger collision size than zealots and they can't pass in many chokes zealots can. Since probe doesn't have hold position, it is quite hard to make it stand right behind the choke, in the wall-in depicted above, they are standing inside it. For example, 12 pool on Longinus. You still build a 14 nex, forge, 2 cannons (you may risk building one, but I wouldn't) and then close the wall-in with a gateway. When lings come, you simply won't have the zealots to block the choke with. There, probes come in handy. The best way to block is ofc blocking 0-matrix-wide, but you will have trouble getting any units other than zealots out later on. Sometimes progamers even sacrifice their gateway later to get a solid defense early-on.
4) I haven't been able to figure out a pattern of how buildings interact with terrain on different tilesets. Sometimes lings pass through extremely tight chokes you never thought were passable, sometimes they can't go through gaps ridiculously wide (refer to the screenshot on Longinus 11 main - the gap between the gateway and the cliff looks very wide, but it is in fact impassable).
These two variants are actually slightly better than the ones in the op, as the lings has to run a slightly longer path when passing the cannons.
Oh, I'll say it agaim. Building above obstacle is unpassable and gate above forge is unpassable. I think building to the right/left of obstacle is unpassable but im not sure of it. Building below obstacle is passable, mostly.
For python, aren't the entrances to the natural too big to wall? There are probably smart formations that protect the ramp and the nexus, but not as well as in the two maps shown above.
But if you go 10 forge, like I do, and see that he's 9 pooling - you only have time to lay down two cannons I thought, and no additional gateway? Wouldn't your layouts be very open to zergling aggression then?
On November 19 2007 07:50 micronesia wrote: For python, aren't the entrances to the natural too big to wall? There are probably smart formations that protect the ramp and the nexus, but not as well as in the two aps shown above.
None of these formations are air tight either, it's assumed I'm asking for the optimal building placements.
On November 19 2007 08:03 GrandInquisitor wrote: But if you go 10 forge, like I do, and see that he's 9 pooling - you only have time to lay down two cannons I thought, and no additional gateway? Wouldn't your layouts be very open to zergling aggression then?
Cut probes. You should definetely be able to build everything in time, just remember that the gateway produces an obstacle even if it's at 100 hp building, so you can build it right before lings reach your nat (well, it builds quite fast, but still better get a head start). The timing of 9 pool is largely dependent on map/position, so on some maps you are better off building a forge right after you scout an empty main. Again, I haven't faced a 9pooler in a while, but vs 12 pool, on most maps you 14 nexus, forge, cut probes, 2 cannons, resume probes, pylon, gateway. It is also very important to scout well. On python, you never scout the closest main - if he is there, you know it right after the first main revealed. This way, no matter where zerg is, you find him in 2 tries. (A nice tip for 9 poolers on Python would be to scout a distant main with first ovie)
Ok, I've watched some VODs on Blue Storm and I should say the wall-in's are quite hard there. The easy thing with maps like Tau Cross and Longinus is that both of them have a choke at natural. Blue Storm does not. Neither does it have a ramp to main, so the logic of the game changes vastly, including wall-in building. For Blue Storm-like maps you would your wall-in to have the following features:
1) Your actual wall is most of the time gateway+forge. Forge should be below like the kind man above me posted. You use this wall to cut off a direction lings can come from.
2) Another part of the wall is your actual nexus. It tightens the choke even more.
3) The "passable area" should be as close to the nexus as possible because it makes using probes to block that much easier.
4) Make totally sure that there is at least one cannon that protects at least 2/3 of the probe mining area and make totally sure that each of your buildings are covered by at least one cannon as well.
5) Your pylon doesn't generate artificial chokes anywhere, but it may be quite vulnerable to ling aggression, so it should be placed slightly behind. In the ideal scenario, it is placed in such a way that it can't be a priority target for lings, but still serves as some kind of obstacle if lings decide to break through.
So let's see how progamers do it:
Free's wall-in at bottom spawn:
My attempt to mirror Free's wall-in at top spawn:
Kal's wall-in at top spawn (note that Kal had indeed built 3 cannons before his gate, but he was facing a 9 pool speedling build):
Much's wall-in at bottom spawn (I didn't do mirrors for Kal and Much because they are very akin to Free's wall-in):
Stork's wall-in at top spawn:
My attempt to mirror Stork's wall-in at bottom spawn:
Now let's analyze what we have here: Free's, Kal's and Much's wall-in's are essentially the same idea with slight variations. They get a cannon that covers the nexus, a pylon slightly in behind, a cannon that covers the gate/forge wall, and the actual wall blocks the wide ramp passage. Much's wall-in differs slightly from what Free did, he has a more safely-positioned cannon, but the same cannon of Free blocks a larger part of the choke. So Free's wall-in is superior if zerg tries to run past through it, and Much's is better if zerg tries to kill the cannons. However, keep in mind that cannon placement actually can be dependent on the scouting information - if zerg has a handful of lings but an early extractor, he might not be able to kill the cannons, if zerg opens 12 hatch, a run-through is highly improbable.
Stork's wall-in is quite different from the others. Stork builds his wall right close to the wide ramp, so he might have better spacing and more time to react vs a ling attack directed from there. His second cannon is placed in such a way that a couple of probes placed in the small choke with proper pull-back control would be able to halt or completely stop any kind of ling attack from there. But buildings don't give vision of high ground and his wall will do nothing if lings from the small choke actually break through, his cannon is also exposed to lings in a frightening way. So Stork's way of handling FE is by definition based on premium micro. Imo, for an average player, Free's/Kal's/Much's wall-in with some variation on cannon/pylon placement is superior.
Hope that helped, I would really love someone to do Python ^^.
EDIT: and kudos to Zerg~Legend, his wall-ins for Tau are indeed better both due to better-protected forge and larger detour route.
This is top quality stuff. Thanks Bluzman and Zerg~Legend. I have always been amazed at the number of Protoss that don't know these formations and also the number of Zerg who attempt a speedling build when the Protoss is showing a solid formation. It happens tons on iCCup and also occasionally among professionals, though I think coaches and players of professional teams have taken notice and made sure to correct such an easy thing. The one game I beat Mondragon in a tournament, he went speedling on Longinus when I was at 11 and I was using the proper formation. It looks like the lings can go past the gateway on the right but of course they can't. So I got an easy advantage to start off the game.
Stork's Blue Storm formation is better for defending against hydralisks. He probably had some nightmare games during practice when he saw a hydralisk timing attack coming and, despite adding more cannons, he still couldn't defend. His formation allows for units to retreat back to the cannons and attack with the cannons.
oh wow i love reach's block for that 10 spot on Luna, makes the lings run a nice distance if they want to scout if the ramp is blocked or not, and the bottom hole can be blocked with any one unit
Yeah. It's not bad. Lings can easily run past on top though...
The other spots are more terrible. Zeus had a bad time with Savior's lings running past him. 2'oclock is impossible to make a "good" block, so I never bothered making a sample. Out of all the games played on Luna the Final, there wasn't a FE at that location by Protoss.
Well, I'm thinking about that, but I feel we should collect abit more data before merging it all into a giant OP.
Btw, Python wall-in's are easier that Blue Storm because of the ramp. You still have to worry about all-in attacks, but runs are that much harder to do due to how easy it is to block the ramp with probes.
Btw, those walls look very, very nice! Can you tell me which of the gaps between wall/cliff on those screens are actually impassable? The screen for main at 3 shows a gate below cliff which is most of the time passable despite looking super-tight.
The gaps between the building and the wall should be impassable in all positons. I MC:ed a ling and tried to run past. A micro mistake could still have made it's way though but I doubt it. I'll test again just to be safe.
Edit: The darn gate was passable, so I moved it. The choke is now alittle wider but it can't be passed above.
On November 20 2007 03:15 Equinox_kr wrote: If needed I can provide pictures for Reverse Temple if BluzMan would be interested in them
I think there are far more people interested in them than just me. I've already stated that this should be a thread everyone could contribute to, there's a ton of maps out there, and one man simply can't do them all. ^^ RTL's wall-in's are quite unique (but very easy due to maximum collision size of the minerals) so it is definetely helpful.
It isn't a great deal, but the forge at 9 is unpowered ^^
EDIT: also, I think I have a better formation for 6:
Thank you for this thread! Sorry for posting similar positioning, but I already had the savegame I kind of spent time on this same thing this weekend, here are some of my attempts of blocking:
My cover of the forge/gateway is only one cannon, a bit safer pylon and better protection for gas/probes. The line is zergling proof with those three probes placed like that. A DT would have to walk around the bottom cannon for those brave enough to FE in pvp.
Python 3, the rightmost probe has to be exactly there to block lings. Notice the lack of cover for my mining probes though.
Python 12, the pylon kind of sucks there if you want to build more cannons close to the gas, but it makes it easier to block with probes.
Python 9, very similar til zerg~legend's post, so just to complete my suggestions for Python:
Python 6 I think I stole directly from a recent game (but he had one cannon to the left of the Nexus), but can't remember what game right now. I don't have the skill of some people posting here, so this is simply trial and error.
*ninjaediting done if I don't find any broken links a.s.o.
OK here comes my views on Luna the final. (since no one seems to post it) This is far from perfect but I did my best.
Position 1: Nuked better job done
Position 4: Nuked better job done
Position 7: Nuked better job done
Position 10:
*EDITED* note: OK this one is far better than the previous one. Apart from the way out of your base you need one zealot at the bottom left of the ramp or lings may go through. forge and nexus are fully protected. However there is still litle room to harass gas. (long way to go to do this) clearly the bottom canon is a little bit weak but tell me what you think of this.
This one is great =) The cannon isn't bothering the peons mining gas.
Luna 7
You can either place the second cannon to the right of the gate in order to protect the gas or next to the first cannon in order to protect it from an all in. The path between the gate and the nexus is lingwalkable but is quite the detour.
Luna 1
The only thing that bothers me with this one is that the gas still isn't protected. Maybe it's worth it to move out the wall. That would make it worse vs runbys but the gas would get protected just as much as the rest of your base.
I think it'll be a good idea if we can play some practice games where all protss do is make a formation at every single spawn Nat and zerg makes some ling and try to break it. Should be fun.
On November 21 2007 19:22 evanthebouncy! wrote: I think it'll be a good idea if we can play some practice games where all protss do is make a formation at every single spawn Nat and zerg makes some ling and try to break it. Should be fun.
Yes this could be nice to know with how much speedlings zerg can get a breakthrough that bothers protoss economy. (something like 5-6 lings or more)
On November 21 2007 19:22 evanthebouncy! wrote: I think it'll be a good idea if we can play some practice games where all protss do is make a formation at every single spawn Nat and zerg makes some ling and try to break it. Should be fun.
Yes this could be nice to know with how much speedlings zerg can get a breakthrough that bothers protoss economy. (something like 5-6 lings or more)
3 lings is often all you need to really bother toss economy early game.. assume toss doesn't have more than 1 zealot.
On November 21 2007 12:32 nevake wrote: ... Edit: Not sure why picture doesn't show, but I'll fix it later.
For the first image use "http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2129/peakstopwallingk2.png", for second use "http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7085/peaksbottomwallinzo9.png" in your tags. You get them from the "direct" field at imageshack below your image.
Nice. A lot of these are really good, but I think a lot of these can be improved. Specifically nevake's Peaks. You should be considering the following when you place your Cannons, in descending order of importance:
- Are they blocked in by buildings (Forge, Pylon, Nexus, Gateway) to prevent an easy surround? - Do they cover all buildings? - Do they cover Probes? - Can they easily be run by into my main?
In the top Peaks, both Cannons are fairly exposed and side-by-side, meaning they will easily die to 12 Zerglings. The top position doesn't even cover the Forge, meaning you will lose that to Zerglings. Once the Forge is gone your ramp is exposed, even though you should have Zealots by this time.
It's a similar problem for the bottom Peaks. The Cannons are exposed and not easily protected by Zerglings. This position is slightly better because the Forge isn't exposed.
There must be a better formation for Peaks. I realize it's tough because you need to have your Gateway and Forge blocking the ramp, but I think we can find (or come up with) something better.
On the top Peaks I'm not sure because that Forge is so exposed if you try to block the ramp. I would probably move the bottom cannon to the top left of the Nexus, at the very least, but I think this formation needs to be entirely redone.
On the bottom Peaks I would move the top Cannon to the left of the Pylon so it's more protected. I'd still be really nervous with that formation, and would probably use a Pylon or Cybernetics Core to block the Cannons from the top.
I see your point with the top (but I think it's more my mistake that the cannons didn't reach than anything else, so I re did it and I think the cannons reach now). I'll try to get a different top wall-in I have seen from a replay I have (and edit it into this post).
Edit: I think this is Kal's top wall-in from one of his replays. It has a wider choke, but the cannons are further apart.
I think the gate on the bottom spot should be moved to atop the forge. That would limit the possibel angles of approach. And I think the cannons should be moved to below nexus for better protection.
First of all, I checked like 10 pvts with top players just now. And they don't seem to rely as much (based on those 10) on a perfect wall-in on peaks (unlike blue storm), especially not at 12.
In addition they often build only the forge and a cannon first, and they sometimes place the forge where I place the gateway (on 12), they don't have the luxury of placing it all at the same time and therefore have to choose differently. When expecting lings all of them built three or more cannons at 12, often two along the Nexus and one behind it leaving big holes otherwise, just slapping a gate under the forge. I am quite sure they have good reasons for this, but that did not stop me for trying to make something more along the lines of this thread.
Peaks 12:
Peaks 6:
Buildings and gas are covered in both positions (the gas cannot be surrounded by lings afaik here either). Minerals are mostly covered too. 12 is obviously harder to defend. With probes placed like shown the lings have to run around the Nexus (or attack).
OK I came up with a new idea for a wall in on the f***ing position 1 for Luna. First I'll tell you what bothered me on Zerg~LegenD work: 1. Gaz isn't protected. As you will see this particular drawback can't be helped. I turned the problem in every way possible it seems that you can't help it. 2. Open photon canons. This will be corrected in the following. 3. The path betwen gateway and Pylon I pulled out a trick for this precise thing. I just tried hard on a wall-in close to minerals but I couldn't do anything really better. That's why I went for a wall in on the path to your FE. As you will see the wall itself is pretty nice but this place has drawbacks later in the game.
Second this has to be discussed. I couldn't make every piece of testing and I won't be able before a long time.
Let's go for the picture:
So there are now two things that should be discussed.
(really) Early game: The wall itself sounds strong, you can wall with 2 zealots but there is a path between gate and the upper canon. However you can stick an almost invisible probe in there. (which is targetable by a direct Attack clic but this assumes the zerg sees it and is able to do it without losing most of his zerglings. Once you get yourself a 3rd zeal you may advance your line of defense a little bit and get straight defense for your canons. But unless your left canon is damaged enough it is better to let your two zealots where they are and get the third in the place of the probe.
(late)Early game: Hydras: well I FEd Hydras are gonna be tough to counter but this has nothing to do with the wall. Mutas: OMG this is where the pain comes. We don't have anything to protect our beloved probes from muta harass. And there I need advice from better players than me: is there any hope of countering them with early dragoons and a templar tech delayed. I don't know and I have noone to test it right now. Another point is that if you scout your opponent good enough to see that there isn't a critical amount of zerglings you can keep the money from the second canon and set it up at your nat.
Anyway if the fool zerg is willing to take your wall down with his mutas to get his zerglings into your economy be confident since everything is protected. Precisely if you go for the 3 zeal in a line be wary that only one canon can fire on mutas as long as they target the zealot on the left side you should go back to the 2+1 position.
I tried to figure out some wall-ins for Zodiac. Because I can't remember them instantly I made screens so I guess I can add them to this thread. These are ones that are decent that I could come up with. There could very well be some problems with one of them. Or maybe the second cannon can be better.
I looked and copied some of them from progames.
Ooh, and the 11 o'clock position on Python has the forge out of the pylon range. It's not easily fixed either.
Very good guide, I won't be screwed by zerglings but,
On November 18 2007 19:06 BluzMan wrote: - Gateway above obstacle is usually impassable, but make sure you don't trap your zealots like in that famous game when some protoss went 2 gate proxy and trapped his initial zealots, so he gg'd before even being scouted.
for those protoss users that have trouble with the exact place where nexus should be located ( I had that problem before), use the vaspene geyser as a reference point, then make pylons according to it (you should practice by yourself first ofc) If you do this, then many maps become more or less same to block. usually i would build one unit space away from where nexus should be built so units can pass through. This practice shuld help vs'in 9 poolers or even 5 poolers. sometimes lots of protoss users panic and just build pylon wherever possible and end up not being able to build nexus at all (classic example = tau cross 3 starting position)
Other possible reference points could be cracks on certain places. for example, for tau cross or arcadia, i look for certain features of a specific area. this will help you block more consistently
I saw that the luna 5 position needs a better block (maybe better only in my mind), so i added a replay where it shows the block. I wasn't sure how to upload screenshots...so I here's the replay instead. hopefully someone can ss it.
With that positioning, units from your base have to go through your probe line to get out of the base if rallied to the front, and that sucks. Heres the one I've used on 12:00:
I know there is more than 1 pylon, but let me explain. The first pylon is all you really need to power any of that, but since its out in front, its somewhat vulnerable later on. So later, I build the second pylon and then eventually the third. The second one powers the forge and cannon, and the third one powers everything but the forge.
On April 14 2008 11:30 Spaceball wrote: Is it just me or have the images for blue storm disappeared? Everything else still seems to be there... Any chance those can get re uploaded? Thanks!
Was looking for the BS images too... Anyone have them?
You'll be able to put down before a zergling runby no matter what type of fe you choose to use. I agree that making gate before nexus is stupid, and that's probably why no one has said that it should be done.
Gate before nexus is fine if you're going some weirdo build like what Stork used on Katrina. It's also fine with a gate first build (gate/forge) that is a starter for a zealot/cannon rush. It is also fine on maps like Longinus or Tau Cross where blocking a choke with your gate actually improves your defense more than an extra cannon (but this is only a case for 6-9 pool, 12 pool works with 14 nex, overpool with forge/nex).
A front cannon is not so bad if you're not afraid of a ling all-in. Later on, it serves a nice purpose vs hydra (if you have enough zealots) and especially vs early lurker builds.
EDIT: oh and sorry for not updating this, I will try to do it in the near future. I've kinda halted playing SC for like 3 months now.
I tried a bunch of combos on a lot of the new maps (and the new version of Blue Storm). I still need to do the new OSL map, and I'm sure most of these probably aren't the best, but they for the most part meet the criteria.
Only did 4:30 on this map, because I realized you could just block your main/nat choke, lol. Still, I guess a partial block would be relatively helpful in slowing down an attempt anyways:
Both of these would obviously be useless if they killed the neutrals and went around with like a hydra all in build though. Building near the expo spot was really hard to make a reasonable choke though, so I figured I would include these.
problems with geno's: 5:00 lings break through probes, run behind minerals never getting hit by cannons. too many get through
1:00 the two cannons don't support each other. too wide open. lings kill the bottom cannon and run behind minerals. the SS of mine is incorrect. the top left cannon should be one matrix to the right so it supports the blocking probes better. it can still cover the neutral building from that position
10:00 again just cannon placement. mine has both cannons supporting the blocking probes better and it also has one cannon that'll kill lings trying to run behind minerals
7:00 geno didn't give 7 but mine is a little weird. this position sucks. basically you block with probes between nex and gate and you block your ramp. zerg can kill the top left cannon, but the other is still in good position. it can cover everything, including your ramp. it's likely he'll die trying to get up your ramp rather than attack the top left cannon anyway
remember you can kill the neutral buildings later to let your units come out easier
Yeah I really didn't like my 1:00 on othello, yours looks a lot better. The cannon by the min line seems a lot stronger than trying to prevent them from going behind in the first place since it supports the rest of the buildings better. The other ones are mainly cannon differences, but yours do look better.
Here is the one I had for Othello at 7:00: edit: nevermind, doesn't work.
And here are some that I came up with on Hwarangdo: 10:30:
4:30:
Both cannons full protect the forge, and one partially protects gateway (other fully protects it).
I have a question though. I've been testing these on single player, so I can't try with lings. Probes could pass through cannon above forge, and forge above cannon (used in those screenshots), so I put one there to block. Dark templars couldn't fit though (at least at cannon over forge, I don't think I tested the other one). Do lings fit in that gap? If they don't then these would only require a single probe block (cannon by nexus is fully impassible I think).
edit: Nevermind, I just tried the 7:00 othello ones I made with lings instead of probes/DTs. Too many holes, lol.
Also I tried out some new combos at 1:00, and I kinda like this one:
Neither cannon is exposed, both cover both forge and gateway, one covers the min line in case of a successful run through, and it can be blocked with 3 probes.
maybe you could shift the forge and gate one to the left and put the cannon in the corner between the two, although this would sacrifice coverage of your min line, it should cover both the other cannon and the neutral while allowing units to move thru later game.
On April 27 2008 10:07 alphafuzard wrote: maybe you could shift the forge and gate one to the left and put the cannon in the corner between the two, although this would sacrifice coverage of your min line, it should cover both the other cannon and the neutral while allowing units to move thru later game.
I don't think the gateway can be moved left from its spot. Its impassable when its to the right of the neutral, I think its passable neutral over gate.
Are you guys trying those ones out with lings? Or are you just posting what you think might work? Gate on the site of an assimilator looks very passable to me, but of course, looks can decieve. So are they verified or not?
Anyway, Vampire is a bad map for walls because of the extremely large choke. You'd probably be best off trying to block the nat/main choke with a probe maynard if he tries to run through.
the gateway/assim gap is passable in the 4 o'clock pic but not the other one, but even with it being passable any lings trying to squeeze in there at that spot are gonna get pounded by the cannons, they'd have to go single file and the gap is covered by both cannons
You sure?? Cause I'm pretty sure lings cant get through and since you never omit to mention Mondragon's run bys i think an air tight wallin is not useless at all
Please correct me if im wrong but how do you block with the setup in the op?
The old standard wall-ins don't work on Blue Storm 1.2 though.
Despite all that, your wall-ins are very bad not only because it takes quite a few probes to block (so they're definitely not airtight) but because the cannons are exposed, so even if the run-by problem is eliminated (and it's not) your opponent could just target the cannons and then you'd be in a heap of trouble.
The old wall-ins were really good because of how well everything fit together (Chill's recent chat with 50Cal.Stalife on that replay project explains it). Mondragon's run-by was super strong because it came right as the final piece of the wall-in was put down, the cybernetics core.
That's the standard way to wall in, those forge-gateway-cannon formations.
I don't see how the 1.2 version changes things. Maybe I didn't pay attention, but I didn't see progamers change their wall ins afaik. Maybe the second cannon though.
For the screenshots in the OP for blue storm there is more room between the nexus and the gate/forge. That's really the only difference. I think I like mine more than the ones geno posted a page back.
Although I tested them out with some actual lings and I would need a minimum of 5 probes to completely seal everything off if I had to.
KrinkleStyle, your cannons block the path of workers gathering gas. I finally took the time to post up the wall-ins that I use for Blue Storm. I saw NonY use the one for 1 o'clock in the TSL, and I based my 7 o'clock wall-in off that one.
Move the pylon to the right of the cannon so it helps block the choke a little. Also you can move the entire gate/forge thing down 1 matrix so there is more room above it for adding defences vs a hydra break.
I think you're talking about 7 o'clock right? I see what you mean Kwark. I should move the entire wall-in down 1. I'll change it later when I have time.
great thread, just wanna add that the game you are reffering to(OP) is Kingdom vs July @ Korhal Ceres(correct name?) from WCG Korea quallis some years ago
problems with geno's: 5:00 lings break through probes, run behind minerals never getting hit by cannons. too many get through
1:00 the two cannons don't support each other. too wide open. lings kill the bottom cannon and run behind minerals. the SS of mine is incorrect. the top left cannon should be one matrix to the right so it supports the blocking probes better. it can still cover the neutral building from that position
10:00 again just cannon placement. mine has both cannons supporting the blocking probes better and it also has one cannon that'll kill lings trying to run behind minerals
7:00 geno didn't give 7 but mine is a little weird. this position sucks. basically you block with probes between nex and gate and you block your ramp. zerg can kill the top left cannon, but the other is still in good position. it can cover everything, including your ramp. it's likely he'll die trying to get up your ramp rather than attack the top left cannon anyway
remember you can kill the neutral buildings later to let your units come out easier
NonY I really like your 1, 10, and 7 o clock FE layouts, but at the 5 oclock one wouldn't you need 4 or 5 probes to cover? There's the gaping hole between the cannon and the neutral building, there's the hole between the cannon and pylon, and there's a hole between the pylon and gateway. Is your screenshot wrong? Or am I reading it wrong or something?
Othello is motw this week so I need to get these FE's right lol.
I just started a game without learning them first to wing it, and found when I went to build my nexus that my gateway was slightly in the way and immediately alt>QQ'd lol....
problems with geno's: 5:00 lings break through probes, run behind minerals never getting hit by cannons. too many get through
1:00 the two cannons don't support each other. too wide open. lings kill the bottom cannon and run behind minerals. the SS of mine is incorrect. the top left cannon should be one matrix to the right so it supports the blocking probes better. it can still cover the neutral building from that position
10:00 again just cannon placement. mine has both cannons supporting the blocking probes better and it also has one cannon that'll kill lings trying to run behind minerals
7:00 geno didn't give 7 but mine is a little weird. this position sucks. basically you block with probes between nex and gate and you block your ramp. zerg can kill the top left cannon, but the other is still in good position. it can cover everything, including your ramp. it's likely he'll die trying to get up your ramp rather than attack the top left cannon anyway
remember you can kill the neutral buildings later to let your units come out easier
NonY I really like your 1, 10, and 7 o clock FE layouts, but at the 5 oclock one wouldn't you need 4 or 5 probes to cover? There's the gaping hole between the cannon and the neutral building, there's the hole between the cannon and pylon, and there's a hole between the pylon and gateway. Is your screenshot wrong? Or am I reading it wrong or something?
Othello is motw this week so I need to get these FE's right lol.
I just started a game without learning them first to wing it, and found when I went to build my nexus that my gateway was slightly in the way and immediately alt>QQ'd lol....
They can't pass under your forge there, but yes, 5 is the hardest to block properly. You need like 3-4 probes still, even if you count that in. I tried a lot of different setups at Othello 5...I must go to sleep now (early class), but should I forget to add my pictures (WCG practice) to this thread in an effort to contribute, someone could be kind and remind me . They're the "old" WCG mappack maps (Troy, Blue Storm - covered here - , Othello, Andromeda), all starting position naturals.
Edit: a justified bump imo, this topic is pretty resourceful.
problems with geno's: 5:00 lings break through probes, run behind minerals never getting hit by cannons. too many get through
1:00 the two cannons don't support each other. too wide open. lings kill the bottom cannon and run behind minerals. the SS of mine is incorrect. the top left cannon should be one matrix to the right so it supports the blocking probes better. it can still cover the neutral building from that position
10:00 again just cannon placement. mine has both cannons supporting the blocking probes better and it also has one cannon that'll kill lings trying to run behind minerals
7:00 geno didn't give 7 but mine is a little weird. this position sucks. basically you block with probes between nex and gate and you block your ramp. zerg can kill the top left cannon, but the other is still in good position. it can cover everything, including your ramp. it's likely he'll die trying to get up your ramp rather than attack the top left cannon anyway
remember you can kill the neutral buildings later to let your units come out easier
NonY I really like your 1, 10, and 7 o clock FE layouts, but at the 5 oclock one wouldn't you need 4 or 5 probes to cover? There's the gaping hole between the cannon and the neutral building, there's the hole between the cannon and pylon, and there's a hole between the pylon and gateway. Is your screenshot wrong? Or am I reading it wrong or something?
Othello is motw this week so I need to get these FE's right lol.
I just started a game without learning them first to wing it, and found when I went to build my nexus that my gateway was slightly in the way and immediately alt>QQ'd lol....
They can't pass under your forge there, but yes, 5 is the hardest to block properly. You need like 3-4 probes still, even if you count that in. I tried a lot of different setups at Othello 5...I must go to sleep now (early class), but should I forget to add my pictures (WCG practice) to this thread in an effort to contribute, someone could be kind and remind me . They're the "old" WCG mappack maps (Troy, Blue Storm - covered here - , Othello, Andromeda), all starting position naturals.
Edit: a justified bump imo, this topic is pretty resourceful.
I actually made one just now that only needs 3, but all these stupid pcx converters cost money and the cracks are terrible.
I'll get it converted some time later and post it to see what u guys think
problems with geno's: 5:00 lings break through probes, run behind minerals never getting hit by cannons. too many get through
1:00 the two cannons don't support each other. too wide open. lings kill the bottom cannon and run behind minerals. the SS of mine is incorrect. the top left cannon should be one matrix to the right so it supports the blocking probes better. it can still cover the neutral building from that position
10:00 again just cannon placement. mine has both cannons supporting the blocking probes better and it also has one cannon that'll kill lings trying to run behind minerals
7:00 geno didn't give 7 but mine is a little weird. this position sucks. basically you block with probes between nex and gate and you block your ramp. zerg can kill the top left cannon, but the other is still in good position. it can cover everything, including your ramp. it's likely he'll die trying to get up your ramp rather than attack the top left cannon anyway
remember you can kill the neutral buildings later to let your units come out easier
NonY I really like your 1, 10, and 7 o clock FE layouts, but at the 5 oclock one wouldn't you need 4 or 5 probes to cover? There's the gaping hole between the cannon and the neutral building, there's the hole between the cannon and pylon, and there's a hole between the pylon and gateway. Is your screenshot wrong? Or am I reading it wrong or something?
Othello is motw this week so I need to get these FE's right lol.
I just started a game without learning them first to wing it, and found when I went to build my nexus that my gateway was slightly in the way and immediately alt>QQ'd lol....
They can't pass under your forge there, but yes, 5 is the hardest to block properly. You need like 3-4 probes still, even if you count that in. I tried a lot of different setups at Othello 5...I must go to sleep now (early class), but should I forget to add my pictures (WCG practice) to this thread in an effort to contribute, someone could be kind and remind me . They're the "old" WCG mappack maps (Troy, Blue Storm - covered here - , Othello, Andromeda), all starting position naturals.
Edit: a justified bump imo, this topic is pretty resourceful.
I actually made one just now that only needs 3, but all these stupid pcx converters cost money and the cracks are terrible.
I'll get it converted some time later and post it to see what u guys think
Just google Irfanview, that should solve all the easy image convertion tasks you should ever encounter. Hell, I use it to some semi-advanced stuff over Photoshop because it's way more convenient for me.
Oh and please hold me on to my promise...damn busy days lately. Maybe 2 days from now on. Or Friday. Gah
On November 05 2008 23:07 Axieoqu wrote: Updates would be greatly appreciated. I'm having problems especially with Chupung Ryeong and it's tricky natural.
I've been doing some for recent maps which I've put here. Every one of these (so far) is copied directly from a progamer vod, though some of them aren't that great. The Chupung one doesn't really cover the back entrance, but I've found putting a probe or a pylon down that path will give you enough warning to lings sneaking behind that you can pull probes with time to spare. As always, experiment a bit.
On another note: I was planning on doing the rest of the maps and compiling them for myself, but I noticed that this thread's OP hasn't been updated since 2007. Would there be interest in a new thread? I've got the time and wouldn't mind keeping it updated.
The selected cannon should be built first. Pick between one of the other two, I couldn't decide which would be better. I think the cannons are a little more protected in this setup and the runby distance is a little longer.
Oh now that I see that that probe on the right blocks that spot, I realize that nony's screenshot blocks it if you have the probe high enough (aka where it is in his screenshot), that's fantastic I hadn't realized that before.
The selected cannon should be built first. Pick between one of the other two, I couldn't decide which would be better. I think the cannons are a little more protected in this setup and the runby distance is a little longer.
I think in both cases the cannon closer to the mineral line should be build second, since it covers your probes as they're mining. I think your pylons both block gas miners, but I could be wrong.
They are essentially mirrors. At 7, the probe must be there or lings will get through the forge and gateway. Just tell it to move to the forge from below and it should go there. 1 o'clock is lingproof. they have to run all the way around the gateway and between the two cannons to get to your base.
The cannons by the nexi just *barely* cover far minerals. they should be fine, unless your probe decides to mine on the other side of the patch.
The selected cannon should be built first. Pick between one of the other two, I couldn't decide which would be better. I think the cannons are a little more protected in this setup and the runby distance is a little longer.
I think in both cases the cannon closer to the mineral line should be build second, since it covers your probes as they're mining. I think your pylons both block gas miners, but I could be wrong.
*shrugs* I just figured that one should be built first because i was certain it should go there. I guess it's more of a judgement call. And I checked to make sure the gas wasn't blocked.
EDIT: I'll work on some of the more recent maps to see what I can come up with. I'll post them as I finish them.
On November 08 2008 17:13 simon311A wrote: Centric, on your 7 Chupung Ryeung, why not move the pylon and lower cannon down 1, then swap the forge and gate?
It isn't mine? But I agree...the forge and gate should be switched, otherwise it's not ling-safe.
On November 08 2008 17:13 simon311A wrote: vAltyR, on your 7 Chupung Ryeung, why not move the pylon and lower cannon down 1, then swap the forge and gate?
Fixed.
I think i tried that and it wasn't ling proof between the cliff and the gateway, but I will try it your way and see. Currently, the setup is ling-proof, but only if they probe is where it is in the picture. Otherwise, yeah, lings can get through.
EDIT: Just checked, and your idea has a hole between the cliff and the gateway. You could do it that way and put a probe to block if you wanted.
Hi guys I've been reading this site for a pretty long time and i decided to make an account today.
This thread really helped my PvZ. It's really important to know how to wall in properly in this matchup.One building placement mistake and the zerg can totally own your wall or your troops might get stuck and you get raped again
On November 10 2008 12:23 Sauron wrote: Hi guys I've been reading this site for a pretty long time and i decided to make an account today.
This thread really helped my PvZ. It's really important to know how to wall in properly in this matchup.One building placement mistake and the zerg can totally own your wall or your troops might get stuck and you get raped again
Agreed...I've been trying to get my friend to read this thread for a long, long time but he never does and always gets owned by ling run-by's.
EDIT: Apparently my placements sucked, so I went through MSL vods and copied the progamers. Probes are there to block holes. Edited again after better placements were suggested.
vAltyR, that's some bad placement, both against massling and hydras... progamers usually wall further outside, at the chokepoint. Your 'walls' are way too wide.
I went back and double-checked the ones on Chupung-Ryeong and Destination, and they were actually really close to the pros except for my Chupung-Ryeong 7 o'clock. I feel mine is just as effective, however, since both ways have a hole that needs to be blocked by a probe. However, I'll probably change it at some point to the pro layout.
Anyways, since Athena II is MOTW this week, I figured I'd go ahead and work that one out. Let me know if you see any problems with these.
Also, I know people already have some setups for Andromeda, but I figured I'd add my contribution since I felt they could be improved. Let me know if you see any problems. Thanks to DarkRidley6 for helping me with the Andromeda layouts.
It usually goes pylon-forge-cannon-cannon-nexus-gateway. If you scout the zerg doing a 12-hatch, you can safely do a 14 nexus, though. If he does a pool before expanding, you should put down the forge and a cannon or two depending on how early the pool is (1 cannon for 12pool, 2 for 9pool/overpool).
I'm only D-, though, so I could be wrong. Anybody higher ranked want to help me out on this?
On November 17 2008 22:21 Infinity.SkyLark wrote: yeah, I got the part where he does 12 hatch..
8 pylon 10 forge 12 cannon 14 nexus
if its a 9 pool... 8 pylon 9/10 forge then add 2 cannons then add nexus....
bah, anyone with the specific build orders?
There are no specific build orders. Vs scouted 12 hat 11 pool I often go 8p, 13n, 15g, 16p, 17f, 19a. You need to look at what they're doing and make only as many cannons as you absolutely need to. This is a huge misunderstanding a lot of players have. If you try to follow a strict build order you'll get owned by either massdroning or allins. You need to adapt much more.
Edit: decided to redo all on Andromeda, didn't quite get the suggestions posted by Geno and Valtyr.
All solutions stop lings when probes are placed as shown (tested). Cannons (usually both) cover pylon, gateway, forge, nexus, gass, blocking probes and mostly minerals and ramp.
I think Free does it like this, notice the probe by the gass, he only used 1 probe at the ramp to let cannons get some shots at lings running for the main though.
I saw a lot of variations for this one. Some are aimed more towards defending against hydras rather than run-bys so the pylon/initial cannon is further out. I picked the ones I thought looked neatest.
I would feel very uneasy FE'ing on this map, but it should be possible. These probably aren't optimal since I didn't use progamer's placements except at 7 o'clock.
I gave yellow a try, seems the 11 O'Clock you need three probes, all other positions it can be done with 2 probes to block. Shouldn't matter to much in a game though.
Gnojfatelob, did you check to see where lings can get through on your Medusa? I think there's a few holes, I'll test them out really quickly and let you know
EDIT: Tested, and I like your 7 and 11 better. Both of mine needed an extra probe to plug a hole, whereas yours didn't need it. My only suggestion there is at 7, I would move the pylon left 1 matrix and up two matrices, however where you have it works just as well.
Our setups at 3 are almost exactly the same. Your forge is shifted right one matrix and your gateway is shifted left two matrices from my placements. In terms of blocking zerglings, they'll do the exact same thing, but I like my setup with having one of the cannons forward a bit more relative to the gateway.
I'll update my previous post with your 7 and 11 setups (giving you credit of course) since they are better. I guess it goes to show that even the progamers make mistakes (since I took my medusa setups directly from the progamers).
On December 31 2008 02:21 vAltyR wrote: Gnojfatelob, did you check to see where lings can get through on your Medusa? I think there's a few holes, I'll test them out really quickly and let you know.
Nono, no holes, except ofc the probes, but you gotta micro those a little. The're not my designs, i took them from bisu.
On December 31 2008 02:21 vAltyR wrote: Gnojfatelob, did you check to see where lings can get through on your Medusa? I think there's a few holes, I'll test them out really quickly and let you know.
Nono, no holes, except ofc the probes, but you gotta micro those a little. The're not my designs, i took them from bisu.
Aahhhh, that explains it. I got my 3 from bisu, which is why it's so similar.
dude, at the 1 position at yellow, the lings can pass between the stone tower and the gateway, that was what pissed me off when I was trying it. Good job on the 7 though, I had a different version of your wall.haha.
Red lines are notable places where lings can pass. I generally tried to increase the distance lings would have to run and made sure cannons could cover each other, the ramp, and the back of the minerals.
At the 1 o'clock while only zealots can pass through you can destroy the neutral building to facilitate movement once the ling threat is over. Note that at the 1 o'clock position lings can hit the far corner of the gateway without being in cannon range; the gateway may be able to be moved up one but it might make it harder to block with probes.
Red lines are notable places where lings can pass. I generally tried to increase the distance lings would have to run and made sure cannons could cover each other, the ramp, and the back of the minerals.
At the 1 o'clock while only zealots can pass through you can destroy the neutral building to facilitate movement once the ling threat is over. Note that at the 1 o'clock position lings can hit the far corner of the gateway without being in cannon range; the gateway may be able to be moved up one but it might make it harder to block with probes.
NonY's are a lot better than this. Let me see if I can duplicate them.
EDIT: Here they are. I'm a little iffy about 7 o'clock, but I'm pretty sure the rest of them are NonY's.
On November 17 2008 18:34 vAltyR wrote: Anyways, since Athena II is MOTW this week, I figured I'd go ahead and work that one out. Let me know if you see any problems with these.
I was wondering about thes walls if they are realy the best way to wall on that map as it seams like they got huge openings and make it veary easy to do a run by or should I just block my ramp and let the canons take car of the zerglings? I'm realy noob so I don't realy know trying to learn how to do a fe build better...
I liked these simcities because: 1) lots of room for your army before pushing out and army doesn't have to step through probe line 2) only takes 1 probe or 2 if feeling insecure to block
Things that are less than desirable: 1)ain't too great against hydra break 2)far away from nat nexus
Any suggestions for alternate simcities would be great.
====== Also, it may be a lot of work, but I'm sure the community would appreciate it if a kind-hearted mod would help update the OP to include the new simcities.
It's more sunken into the expansion allowing better defense against hydras. I suppose it would be harder to break out of a contain by the same virtue. With a slight modification
Tau Cross -- these seal completely with 1 zealot and still allow dragoons to pass for 1'oclock and 5'oclock mains... the picture for the OP for 9'oclock works well
Neo Harmony (aka Sword in the Moon on iCCup) is MOTW this week, so I decided to look up some VODs and copy FE formations. Three of these are exact copies of progamer wall-ins. The 5 oclock formation is copied but slightly modified: I moved the gateway right so there's only 1 square between it and the nexus. Some of these are not so great (ling all-ins are a fairly big risk) but that's just the nature of the map.
On April 05 2009 21:00 Sonu wrote: why are all the forges up in the front. If they get sniped by hydras you are screwed right?
These wall-ins are designed to counter any form of zergling runby. You can throw billions of zerglings at it and you will deflect them easily. The only time your forge will get sniped is when he goes all-in hydra with range, otherwise you will have enough units to hold him off. And if he goes all-in hydra, you can afford to lose a forge, if you know how to counter it well.
On April 05 2009 21:00 Sonu wrote: why are all the forges up in the front. If they get sniped by hydras you are screwed right?
These wall-ins are designed to counter any form of zergling runby. You can throw billions of zerglings at it and you will deflect them easily. The only time your forge will get sniped is when he goes all-in hydra with range, otherwise you will have enough units to hold him off. And if he goes all-in hydra, you can afford to lose a forge, if you know how to counter it well.
Also typically your +1 will be close to finishing, so when that upgrade is done you can lose the forge if need be, but lately that hasn't been happening. Typically the Zerg will go for the cannons since they are your support defense, but if you micro your zealots correctly in time for storm, you can deflect the first rush rather easily. If they do target your forge you can target storm them, and even make a new forge in your main, since when your +1 is done you would want to get your second forge up for additional upgrades
So I'm bumping this to see if anyone has any placement suggestions for Outsider? I tried a couple, but they require a bit of well placed buildings and a lot of luck to pull off. Basically for the 1 oclock position (the easiest IMO) you can do a gateway over forge and place the cannons as I have. They defend every building including the natural mineral line. You only need 1-2 probes to block, and the matrix between the pylon and the cannon is enough for archons and dragoons to pass. The other two positions I had a bit more trouble maneuvering. The wall-ins I came up with are in the following screenshots, but for the one at 9 o'clock I'm weary of because of that huge gap. The forge/gateway combo didn't really work in any position. Zerglings were able to get around the buildings anyway I put it. I figured it would be best to keep the gateway and the forge closer to the top since the ramp is north of the expansion. The cannons are more-or-less arbitrarily placed as I couldn't find the best position for them with the wall, which isn't perfect. You need a probe wedged between the wall and the buildings to stop zerglings from entering.
Agreed. I did something very similar to this 1 oclock FE just spur of the moment the first time I tried God's Garden and it was terrible. My units kept getting stuck when they moved through the probe line. That said, I don't think FE is the best build on this map anyway (judging by the few pro games we've seen so far).
On April 29 2009 07:20 Amber[LighT] wrote: So I'm bumping this to see if anyone has any placement suggestions for Outsider? I tried a couple, but they require a bit of well placed buildings and a lot of luck to pull off. Basically for the 1 oclock position (the easiest IMO) you can do a gateway over forge and place the cannons as I have. They defend every building including the natural mineral line. You only need 1-2 probes to block, and the matrix between the pylon and the cannon is enough for archons and dragoons to pass. The other two positions I had a bit more trouble maneuvering. The wall-ins I came up with are in the following screenshots, but for the one at 9 o'clock I'm weary of because of that huge gap. The forge/gateway combo didn't really work in any position. Zerglings were able to get around the buildings anyway I put it. I figured it would be best to keep the gateway and the forge closer to the top since the ramp is north of the expansion. The cannons are more-or-less arbitrarily placed as I couldn't find the best position for them with the wall, which isn't perfect. You need a probe wedged between the wall and the buildings to stop zerglings from entering.
its not a problem if you have to kill 1 cannon to get out.. really, that doesnt affect you at all, the cannons are necessary early game but if you still need them in mid or late game you're almost always losing anyway.
7 pylon 8 forge -> nexus or 1 cannon(depending on zerg build) and gateway basically does it because your probes hold off very well when they surround the cannon.
On May 12 2009 15:20 shinbum wrote: 7 pylon 8 forge -> nexus or 1 cannon(depending on zerg build) and gateway basically does it because your probes hold off very well when they surround the cannon.
How on earth do you 8 forge?
I ALWAYS have 10 supply when I start my forge because that's just the way it works out and well.. you need the pylon up before you even build the forge in the first place...
On May 12 2009 15:20 shinbum wrote: 7 pylon 8 forge -> nexus or 1 cannon(depending on zerg build) and gateway basically does it because your probes hold off very well when they surround the cannon.
Bad build order. You never 8 forge. You adapt your FE build order depending on what the zerg is doing.
Guess he's listing a build for FMP or something. Forge goes down on 10 or 11 depending on map. If you're gonna get to the zergs base after righter after forge on 10, delay your forge and scout if the zerg instead. 10 forge if it's a big map or w/e.
I finally got around to getting the pictures. I must warn you they are not very practical but they are good for keeping scouts out. Also, i did not find a way to practically wall off 12's nat without completley walling it off from the owner of the expo.
Any chance of someone posting walls on Lost Temple? (Specifically, I have a hard time walling at 12 o'clock - but I'd be interested to see "recommended" walls at other positions as well.)
Those images are really small. From what I can make out, you need to kill something to get out at 9 o'clock, 6 pylon could be placed better, 3 leaves a large gap. I can't see the ramp at 12 so it looks like it is placed to far forward. Did you test these with lings to guarantee everything that looks blocked is really blocked? And you make images like this it helps to include the nexus so people have a frame of reference, larger would be nice too.
Agreed. I did something very similar to this 1 oclock FE just spur of the moment the first time I tried God's Garden and it was terrible. My units kept getting stuck when they moved through the probe line. That said, I don't think FE is the best build on this map anyway (judging by the few pro games we've seen so far).
Lol its not. 1gate expo is 230947829347x better than forge FE... its kinda ridiculous.
Notes: - Similarly to Troy and Battle Royal, without the assimilators, nothing can pass between the geyser and the adjacent building (gateway/forge). With assimilator built though, zerglings are free to pass hence the probe I had put in the gap. I didn't try this with other units though. I didn't test if the ghost would be able to pass through the gap between building-geyser but I'm hoping you don't have to deal with that... - These wall-ins DO NOT protect you from attacks from the backdoor. You will have to carefully monitor that area for any gay backstab play of any sort. - In the 9 o'clock wall in, you can move the pylon-gateway-forge-adjacent canon 1 block to the left. This way you can block with 2 probes only even with an assimilator built. Also this will not affect gas mining.
On April 29 2009 07:20 Amber[LighT] wrote: So I'm bumping this to see if anyone has any placement suggestions for Outsider? I tried a couple, but they require a bit of well placed buildings and a lot of luck to pull off. Basically for the 1 oclock position (the easiest IMO) you can do a gateway over forge and place the cannons as I have. They defend every building including the natural mineral line. You only need 1-2 probes to block, and the matrix between the pylon and the cannon is enough for archons and dragoons to pass. The other two positions I had a bit more trouble maneuvering. The wall-ins I came up with are in the following screenshots, but for the one at 9 o'clock I'm weary of because of that huge gap. The forge/gateway combo didn't really work in any position. Zerglings were able to get around the buildings anyway I put it. I figured it would be best to keep the gateway and the forge closer to the top since the ramp is north of the expansion. The cannons are more-or-less arbitrarily placed as I couldn't find the best position for them with the wall, which isn't perfect. You need a probe wedged between the wall and the buildings to stop zerglings from entering.
Wasn't really too fond of either of your 5 o'clock bases since zerglings can still pass between gas and nexus. I tried to make one on my own. See how you find it:
Notes: - 4 probes minimum are necessary for a perfect block - canon placement under gateway should NOT be moved any spaces to the left since this position would be perfect for goons to exit the gateway on the left side of the canon therefore not taking the long way to the exit.
I think this wall-in on Python's 6 o'clock is better. You can block with only 2 probes and goons and archons can walk through the cannon/pylon gap. Lower level players also often seem to think their lings will reach the ramp by going left which costs them one or two lings right away. With the addition of your Cybernetics Core you can create a complete wall with 4 probes or leave two one-ling gaps, one of which is partially blocked by exiting gas probes.
On April 29 2009 07:20 Amber[LighT] wrote: So I'm bumping this to see if anyone has any placement suggestions for Outsider? I tried a couple, but they require a bit of well placed buildings and a lot of luck to pull off. Basically for the 1 oclock position (the easiest IMO) you can do a gateway over forge and place the cannons as I have. They defend every building including the natural mineral line. You only need 1-2 probes to block, and the matrix between the pylon and the cannon is enough for archons and dragoons to pass. The other two positions I had a bit more trouble maneuvering. The wall-ins I came up with are in the following screenshots, but for the one at 9 o'clock I'm weary of because of that huge gap. The forge/gateway combo didn't really work in any position. Zerglings were able to get around the buildings anyway I put it. I figured it would be best to keep the gateway and the forge closer to the top since the ramp is north of the expansion. The cannons are more-or-less arbitrarily placed as I couldn't find the best position for them with the wall, which isn't perfect. You need a probe wedged between the wall and the buildings to stop zerglings from entering.
Wasn't really too fond of either of your 5 o'clock bases since zerglings can still pass between gas and nexus. I tried to make one on my own. See how you find it:
Notes: - 4 probes minimum are necessary for a perfect block - canon placement under gateway should NOT be moved any spaces to the left since this position would be perfect for goons to exit the gateway on the left side of the canon therefore not taking the long way to the exit.
The idea was to block with probes mining in the natural. A quicker run-by will be a problem but then there's less lings to worry about. Still I think I prefer your placement.
On May 30 2009 11:34 LuisMl8 wrote: can some one makes all iccup map with a lot of money and intant build to practice how to block or how can i do that
On May 30 2009 11:34 LuisMl8 wrote: can some one makes all iccup map with a lot of money and intant build to practice how to block or how can i do that
On May 30 2009 11:34 LuisMl8 wrote: can some one makes all iccup map with a lot of money and intant build to practice how to block or how can i do that
Go to single player.
Use cheats.
in single player you cant use map from iccup
What are you talking about... just open the iccup map folder, select a map, and start a custom melee game in single player
On May 30 2009 11:34 LuisMl8 wrote: can some one makes all iccup map with a lot of money and intant build to practice how to block or how can i do that
Go to single player.
Use cheats.
in single player you cant use map from iccup
oh yes you can. just make sure its not too far down on a list (aka make a separate folder for all the icc maps)
Very nice, cant wait to try these out, i also have a good block for the 3 o'clock position on Heartbreatk Ridge. Ill upload that later when i find teh replay.
Yeah it would be REALLY useful if liquipedia included a complete list of walls on all maps somewhere, instead of just a few examples. Maybe on the pages for the maps themselves or something?
On July 22 2009 03:20 Muirhead wrote: Yeah it would be REALLY useful if liquipedia included a complete list of walls on all maps somewhere, instead of just a few examples. Maybe on the pages for the maps themselves or something?
I thought each map article would have "how to do forge fe for protoss" images for each position.
On July 22 2009 03:20 Muirhead wrote: Yeah it would be REALLY useful if liquipedia included a complete list of walls on all maps somewhere, instead of just a few examples. Maybe on the pages for the maps themselves or something?
Just search for a map on Liquipedia and on that page you should find the wall-in. Most if not all of the current maps have the fast expand layouts added to their respective pages.
I attempted lost temple (although the choked are huge, and effective walls are often really hard)
Red lines are where zerglings can pass, everywhere else is impassable.
I like the walls at 9 and 6 a lot better than the other two, with 9 being an actual decent wall-in. All buildings are covered by the 2 cannons also, (this includes the corners of the nexus, despite what it might look like. (obviously the mineral line is much more vulnerable). If you were to play FE at 3 or 12, blocking the gap and your ramp, is an absolute necessity. PS: the weird line going on at 6, is because the lings can get past the gateway gap, but surprisingly not past the forge ;o.
the problem with many of the optimized cannon positioning for zergling rush is that its usually not good against front door hydras. the cannons are separate so picking off cannons with micro is that much easier. it forces one to make more cannons than necessary. i find its better to create cannons so that they are in a position to fend off hydras together. zergling rushes are usually blockable by proper micro as long as the cannons are in decent position blocking the entranceway to the main, and in range of gas or nexus harassment.
the only maps i would create cannons separately are on strange maps with large front door openings such as vampire or a map where ling cheese is very common like destination.
Damn you! Because of you lings run-bys are harder to make if you tell everyone how to wall-in properly. T_T
On August 12 2009 05:25 windragon wrote: the problem with many of the optimized cannon positioning for zergling rush is that its usually not good against front door hydras. the cannons are separate so picking off cannons with micro is that much easier. it forces one to make more cannons than necessary. i find its better to create cannons so that they are in a position to fend off hydras together. zergling rushes are usually blockable by proper micro as long as the cannons are in decent position blocking the entranceway to the main, and in range of gas or nexus harassment.
the only maps i would create cannons separately are on strange maps with large front door openings such as vampire or a map where ling cheese is very common like destination.
Shush, or even hydra breaks will be harder, don't let them know.
Hello. I was wondering what to do against a fast lurker build. If they create like 5-7 lurkers really fast and then just run into your natural away from your cannons. What do I do? thank you. I think I have to always scout him right? To see what he is doing and get a defense before he does it.
On August 19 2009 05:45 SirLectro wrote: Hello. I was wondering what to do against a fast lurker build. If they create like 5-7 lurkers really fast and then just run into your natural away from your cannons. What do I do? thank you.
-~!SirLectro!~-
Welcome to TL.net SirLectro,
I think the thread you chose to post in is not tailored to answer these questions - we discuss building placement only here. If you have a specific problem you want to talk about, you are allowed to make a seperate post, following the guidelines here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60175 Usually that means describing in detail what the question is about and posting a relevant replay of yours:
I tried forge-walling off the current version of Asgard (see new maps). Comments and critique please? My criteria included having a cannon cover the minerals from attacks from the backdoor. Both the cannons are able to reach melee units that approach the highest / lowest mineral patch. The Forge at 11 can be moved to the left if preferred. The first 5 position has the problem so far that Zerglings can funnel through the gap between forge and lower cannon. The second avoids that problem but needs 3 units to block the entrance.
some notes on these wall-ins: for tornado's 7 o clock expo, i think the wall is a bit too far from the nexus and for road runner's 9 o clock expo, the 2 probes by the gateway must be placed in this way: 1 probe really close to the gateway and the other probe in some precise spot between the pylon and first probe, otherwise the zerglings will be able to come through and u will need 4 probes to block in total instead of 3
On August 30 2009 10:50 aeroH wrote: someone needs to edit the op T.T
Just store them in liquipedia. We have one centralized page and we also add it to the respective map pages (see Destination for example). I just posted in this thread before uploading since I wasnt sure about the quality.
Does anyone know if it is possible to do a Forge FE on Ride of Valkyries? I have been looking at some of the older maps to mix up the usual choice of maps and this map seems preety good due to it`s simplistic, yet intriguing design. However, it seems like Forge FE would be really difficult on it due to the mineral entrance at the top and the unbuildable terrain in front.of the choke.
i was able to get a forge wall-in for judgement day, except its conditional because it doesn't cover if the zerg were to mine out ur minerals by the nat gas and send lings in there comments and suggestions would be appreciated
Speaking of judgement day, a pylon in the main choke blocks lings on two of the start locations. On the other two, lings can fit through, workers can't.
On September 12 2009 10:25 Tom Phoenix wrote: Does anyone know if it is possible to do a Forge FE on Ride of Valkyries? I have been looking at some of the older maps to mix up the usual choice of maps and this map seems preety good due to it`s simplistic, yet intriguing design. However, it seems like Forge FE would be really difficult on it due to the mineral entrance at the top and the unbuildable terrain in front.of the choke.
Hi, Compiled walls for couple of the new maps. Is bumping this thread ok? I didn't think I should add to liquipedia as I couldn't find a pro game for a couple of the positions so I had to make my own wall based on the pros.
The rules of Movie's wall seemed to be Pylon 1 pylon's distance from Nex, Gate one cannon's distance from pylon, Gate towards base, Forge towards center
Bottom Right (Bisu's Wall-in)
Selected cannon first
Bottom Left (Couldn't find pro game - made wall based on Bisu's bottom right wall)
I gave Fighting Spirit a shot today. I try to put the pylons close to the nexus so you can build additional cannons if needed, but it does me no good to make the perfect wall if I can't remember how to do it, so I also put pylons in easy-to-remember spots. Sorry for lack of proper "probe placement."
On December 10 2009 11:49 stevethemacguy wrote: I gave Fighting Spirit a shot today. I try to put the pylons close to the nexus so you can build additional cannons if needed, but it does me no good to make the perfect wall if I can't remember how to do it, so I also put pylons in easy-to-remember spots. Sorry for lack of proper "probe placement."
well there have been no definite answers on wall-ins on fighting spirit so I'm bumping with wall-ins that have been used in A-team PvZs on fighting spirit
Thanks for this helpful FE wall-in guide. I had been having a little trouble with a secure wall, as I sometimes make deceiving road blocks that actually have tiny cracks in them, even though the building placement grids are all tight and secure.
12 o clock: 4 probes (note the zealot is placed where the 4th probe should be placed. For some reason, the zergling can't pass when it's placed there, but it can pass when the probe isnt placed there)
4 o clock: 4 probes
8 o clock: 4 probes
I didn't get the ones for Punchbowl Area, because there is a 2nd path that the zerglings can take to circumvent the wall completely
Note that the layout for python on position 12 is out of date with version 1.3 of the map - the ridge has been changed, and you cannot fit the forge as displayed.
Move the pylon up one matrix, and you'll make it work. This slightly impedes the ramp, though (goons still pass).
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