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Braavos36392 Posts
On November 19 2007 07:50 micronesia wrote:
For python, aren't the entrances to the natural too big to wall? There are probably smart formations that protect the ramp and the nexus, but not as well as in the two aps shown above.
None of these formations are air tight either, it's assumed I'm asking for the optimal building placements.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On November 19 2007 08:03 GrandInquisitor wrote:
But if you go 10 forge, like I do, and see that he's 9 pooling - you only have time to lay down two cannons I thought, and no additional gateway? Wouldn't your layouts be very open to zergling aggression then?
Cut probes. You should definetely be able to build everything in time, just remember that the gateway produces an obstacle even if it's at 100 hp building, so you can build it right before lings reach your nat (well, it builds quite fast, but still better get a head start). The timing of 9 pool is largely dependent on map/position, so on some maps you are better off building a forge right after you scout an empty main. Again, I haven't faced a 9pooler in a while, but vs 12 pool, on most maps you 14 nexus, forge, cut probes, 2 cannons, resume probes, pylon, gateway. It is also very important to scout well. On python, you never scout the closest main - if he is there, you know it right after the first main revealed. This way, no matter where zerg is, you find him in 2 tries. (A nice tip for 9 poolers on Python would be to scout a distant main with first ovie)
Ok, I've watched some VODs on Blue Storm and I should say the wall-in's are quite hard there. The easy thing with maps like Tau Cross and Longinus is that both of them have a choke at natural. Blue Storm does not. Neither does it have a ramp to main, so the logic of the game changes vastly, including wall-in building. For Blue Storm-like maps you would your wall-in to have the following features:
1) Your actual wall is most of the time gateway+forge. Forge should be below like the kind man above me posted. You use this wall to cut off a direction lings can come from.
2) Another part of the wall is your actual nexus. It tightens the choke even more.
3) The "passable area" should be as close to the nexus as possible because it makes using probes to block that much easier.
4) Make totally sure that there is at least one cannon that protects at least 2/3 of the probe mining area and make totally sure that each of your buildings are covered by at least one cannon as well.
5) Your pylon doesn't generate artificial chokes anywhere, but it may be quite vulnerable to ling aggression, so it should be placed slightly behind. In the ideal scenario, it is placed in such a way that it can't be a priority target for lings, but still serves as some kind of obstacle if lings decide to break through.
So let's see how progamers do it:
Free's wall-in at bottom spawn:
My attempt to mirror Free's wall-in at top spawn:
Kal's wall-in at top spawn (note that Kal had indeed built 3 cannons before his gate, but he was facing a 9 pool speedling build):
Much's wall-in at bottom spawn (I didn't do mirrors for Kal and Much because they are very akin to Free's wall-in):
Stork's wall-in at top spawn:
My attempt to mirror Stork's wall-in at bottom spawn:
Now let's analyze what we have here: Free's, Kal's and Much's wall-in's are essentially the same idea with slight variations. They get a cannon that covers the nexus, a pylon slightly in behind, a cannon that covers the gate/forge wall, and the actual wall blocks the wide ramp passage. Much's wall-in differs slightly from what Free did, he has a more safely-positioned cannon, but the same cannon of Free blocks a larger part of the choke. So Free's wall-in is superior if zerg tries to run past through it, and Much's is better if zerg tries to kill the cannons. However, keep in mind that cannon placement actually can be dependent on the scouting information - if zerg has a handful of lings but an early extractor, he might not be able to kill the cannons, if zerg opens 12 hatch, a run-through is highly improbable.
Stork's wall-in is quite different from the others. Stork builds his wall right close to the wide ramp, so he might have better spacing and more time to react vs a ling attack directed from there. His second cannon is placed in such a way that a couple of probes placed in the small choke with proper pull-back control would be able to halt or completely stop any kind of ling attack from there. But buildings don't give vision of high ground and his wall will do nothing if lings from the small choke actually break through, his cannon is also exposed to lings in a frightening way. So Stork's way of handling FE is by definition based on premium micro. Imo, for an average player, Free's/Kal's/Much's wall-in with some variation on cannon/pylon placement is superior.
Hope that helped, I would really love someone to do Python ^^.
EDIT: and kudos to Zerg~Legend, his wall-ins for Tau are indeed better both due to better-protected forge and larger detour route.
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8751 Posts
This is top quality stuff. Thanks Bluzman and Zerg~Legend. I have always been amazed at the number of Protoss that don't know these formations and also the number of Zerg who attempt a speedling build when the Protoss is showing a solid formation. It happens tons on iCCup and also occasionally among professionals, though I think coaches and players of professional teams have taken notice and made sure to correct such an easy thing. The one game I beat Mondragon in a tournament, he went speedling on Longinus when I was at 11 and I was using the proper formation. It looks like the lings can go past the gateway on the right but of course they can't. So I got an easy advantage to start off the game.
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8751 Posts
Stork's Blue Storm formation is better for defending against hydralisks. He probably had some nightmare games during practice when he saw a hydralisk timing attack coming and, despite adding more cannons, he still couldn't defend. His formation allows for units to retreat back to the cannons and attack with the cannons.
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Can anyone make these for Python and maybe even Luna, those maps are tough.
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Zeus vs Savior
Reach vs Mingu
Luna Idea 1
Luna Idea 2
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oh wow i love reach's block for that 10 spot on Luna, makes the lings run a nice distance if they want to scout if the ramp is blocked or not, and the bottom hole can be blocked with any one unit
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Yeah. It's not bad. Lings can easily run past on top though...
The other spots are more terrible. Zeus had a bad time with Savior's lings running past him. 2'oclock is impossible to make a "good" block, so I never bothered making a sample. Out of all the games played on Luna the Final, there wasn't a FE at that location by Protoss.
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Here's my attempt for python.
The cannon placement is arguable but I tried to place them after Bluzman's recommandations.
I still haven't found any great combinations for the 6 pos but this one is at least better than most 'on the fly' stuff.
Maybe the cannon should be lowered alittle to tighten the choke. But I'm too lazy to retake the screen.
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Maybe we could archieve all working combinations in the op using a spoiler system. Like in that crazy "Strategy Indexing Project".
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Well, I'm thinking about that, but I feel we should collect abit more data before merging it all into a giant OP.
Btw, Python wall-in's are easier that Blue Storm because of the ramp. You still have to worry about all-in attacks, but runs are that much harder to do due to how easy it is to block the ramp with probes.
Btw, those walls look very, very nice! Can you tell me which of the gaps between wall/cliff on those screens are actually impassable? The screen for main at 3 shows a gate below cliff which is most of the time passable despite looking super-tight.
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The gaps between the building and the wall should be impassable in all positons. I MC:ed a ling and tried to run past. A micro mistake could still have made it's way though but I doubt it. I'll test again just to be safe.
Edit: The darn gate was passable, so I moved it. The choke is now alittle wider but it can't be passed above.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
^^
It isn't a great deal, but the forge at 9 is unpowered ^^
EDIT: also, I think I have a better formation for 6:
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It is? ;P At least it's easy fixed by moving the pyl alittle.
Your 6 do indeed look better. =)
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Calgary25997 Posts
Added to recommended threads.
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im reading this thread too, ill make the strategy indexing project general enough so that this too can be added to it
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If needed I can provide pictures for Reverse Temple if BluzMan would be interested in them 
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Amazing thread, always wanted to learn these placements but was always to lazy to start up SC and do it myself.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On November 20 2007 03:15 Equinox_kr wrote:If needed I can provide pictures for Reverse Temple if BluzMan would be interested in them
I think there are far more people interested in them than just me. I've already stated that this should be a thread everyone could contribute to, there's a ton of maps out there, and one man simply can't do them all. ^^ RTL's wall-in's are quite unique (but very easy due to maximum collision size of the minerals) so it is definetely helpful.
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On November 20 2007 02:07 BluzMan wrote:^^ It isn't a great deal, but the forge at 9 is unpowered ^^ EDIT: also, I think I have a better formation for 6:
Thank you for this thread! Sorry for posting similar positioning, but I already had the savegame
I kind of spent time on this same thing this weekend, here are some of my attempts of blocking:
My cover of the forge/gateway is only one cannon, a bit safer pylon and better protection for gas/probes. The line is zergling proof with those three probes placed like that. A DT would have to walk around the bottom cannon for those brave enough to FE in pvp.
Python 3, the rightmost probe has to be exactly there to block lings. Notice the lack of cover for my mining probes though.
Python 12, the pylon kind of sucks there if you want to build more cannons close to the gas, but it makes it easier to block with probes.
Python 9, very similar til zerg~legend's post, so just to complete my suggestions for Python:
Python 6 I think I stole directly from a recent game (but he had one cannon to the left of the Nexus), but can't remember what game right now. I don't have the skill of some people posting here, so this is simply trial and error.
*ninjaediting done if I don't find any broken links a.s.o.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3609/wallinbsfreebottomxu2.jpg)
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