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On July 10 2007 12:19 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2007 11:38 Chill wrote:
Why do I even try? GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I FUCKING HATE THE STRATEGY FORUM. Well i just said that mass hydra can work vs nearly everything protoss has. I dont understand why it would be a bad idea to use it against goons. Show nested quote +On July 10 2007 11:36 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote:
yes, maybe if youre playing fastest map possible. otherwise, if youre going hydras and not mutas youre not exploiting the fact that goons are so immobile. I didnt said that mutas suck against goon ( mutaling is great imo ). I just said that mass hydra works also even if mutaling is more mobile. Moreover many top zerg players dont use muts vs p so dont call me fastest map player please. I'm noob but i m not retarded.
SHUT
THE
FUCK
UP
IDIOT
What happene to the strat forum bans?
On July 10 2007 09:23 Chill wrote: Why do I even try? GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I FUCKING HATE THE STRATEGY FORUM.
=[ not all of us are idiots
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Come on guys, don't be so harsh. Just try and discuss it.
First of all, the mass hydra thing: It does work well against goons, goons/archon. It works against goon/reaver if you flank him well, and it works worst vs goon/templar. Keep in mind that hydras cost half of what a goon costs in everything but minerals, and that's close too. So with equal economies you will have 2 hydras per goon. Now I know this isn't what happens in games but as long as you MASS hydra they should work vs goon combos.
Hydras suck vs speedzeals and storm, but just like in PvP, you can't go goon and strom from one gas. If you want support with your goons, you have to opt for reaver. Now, I know the OP didn't say anything about goon support, but you'll have to agree, it's practicly impossible to win with straight-pure goon vs a zerg that's close to your skill.
So basicly, I think it's not that bad an idea to go hydra at first, since it would hold against reaver drops, sairs, and pure goon alike, rather than go muta, have to spend money on hive, and probably lings, and give him time to breathe.
Besides, muta/ling can bring archons to the battlefield, in which case you will HAVE to switch strats.
Just take moonshine vs andrei's game 2-3 weeks ago, @ python. Moonshine just rounded up hydras, and got mutas when he saw reaver coming, it worked really well too. Had he gone straight muta when he saw goons he would have been severely crippled by the first reaver drop.
So bottom line, my point is: even though lings may be more effective and cheaper at first, you lose the ability to adapt to his strat, because, let's face it, you can't really use your overlords to scout if he's going goons, and if you have like 2 groups of lings and spire building and he lands a reaver in your base, then what? 
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On July 12 2007 06:16 Hawk wrote:
SHUT
THE
FUCK
UP
IDIOT
What happened to the strat forum bans?
Why so much hate ? Explain me why you disagree instead of flaming.
The main difference between zerg and protoss/terran is that you have a larger choice of units in every match up and as CubEdIn explained hydras work well against many protoss units combos.
Nevertheless they suck against storm. But which zerg unit doesnt suck against storm ? I only see one: Ultras because they are uber strong.
With their low hp lings are raped by storm ( but they are cheaper so it is a better choice ), guards are too slow, with lurks you cant even try to dodge and against muts protoss will morph his hts in archon so ...
Hydras can have trouble against speedlots ( until u reach a critical hydra number ) and lurkerling is way better against it but still you can use and win with variations of hydras combos especially if you have a decent micro to dodge storms and of course "dance" with hydras.
edit: is it a tradition to bash low-post count users on tl ?
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Mass hydra doesn't sound like a bad idea, although, it is all situational. If the protoss is really dedicated towards making only goon, I'd just mass hydra because it'd be the easiest way.
The thing about mass hydra is, it's a horrible investment long-term, you get delayed tech and once he gets speedlots / ht they are just fodder. So, if he's cranking out 2-3 gate goon and getting range, I'd go for hydra/ling, because chances are someone who counters muta by teching to sair is not going to be able to counter mass hydra or hydra/ling properly. Don't get in the habit of doing it though.
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On July 09 2007 21:08 Myrmidon wrote:
Evan has the best insight here. It just sounds like you're getting outplayed.
. I have to agree with the being outplayed. Your opponent may just be better, and have quicker reactions, better scouting, and more untis to begin with. If this is not the case i would either muta ling, or do this funny ling build i encouter as p, they just mas a HUGE amount of lings and by the time i have eight lots and a few goons they have almost fourty lings or so. I duno ive only been beaten by zergs...I play toss.
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Muta/Ling is strongest against Goon/Reaver. Muta/Ling totally rapes mass goons. If he adds Corsairs, then you add hydras. If it's just a few sairs then muta/scourge works as well.
This is all the OP wanted to know.
Additions:
If he adds HTs/Speedzealots, then you add lurkers. Use leftover mutas to snipe HTs or harass his bases. Against archons it's not so clear, just throw everything you have at them. Hydras work best against archons (you can snipe them with a group of hydras) but if he has archons it means he also has quite a few HTs which are very strong against hydras...
In general, it's all a matter of the right combination. Regularly scout your opponent's army and see what it's made of and what he is about to build, and build units accordingly.
But there's no golden rule in ZvP. You may also win July style mass hydra vs. anything with excellent storm dodging, sniping of HTs, and dancing vs. Speedzealots if extreme microing like that is your style. Just know that one second of not taking care of your army and you might lose them all...
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On July 12 2007 06:16 Hawk wrote:
SHUT
THE
FUCK
UP
IDIOT
FIGHT ME WITH MUTALING
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On July 10 2007 11:13 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2007 09:23 Chill wrote:
Going Hydras against Dragoons is a pretty bad idea too. There's no reason not to go MutaLing. Other things can work, but you don't sacrifise anything by going MutaLing, and it is the proper counter. LOL i m a huge noob but i know that hydras rape goons with ease. They are cheaper and very good vs EVERY protoss units except high templar. Pure hydra will work until toss has massed a lot of high templar, so u can switch to ultraling late game. On the contrary goons arent good vs lings ( u need zeal, archon, ht ), mutas ( u need archon or sair ) and hydras ( u need speedzeal or ht ). Nevertheless they are usefull against lurks. edit: speedlots could be annoying if you have not a lot of hydras. ANd btw CubEdIn post is the best so far
You should've stopped typing right after "LOL i m a huge noob". Why are you trying to argue with a good player when you have already admitted you don't know much? Your advice is vauge and poor. You should take the time to read and learn more before trying to give your own limited knowledge. And to you and cubedin...why go hydras when muta/ling works better? It's the perfect counter to massed goons..use it. The End.
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On July 12 2007 21:53 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
And to you and cubedin...why go hydras when muta/ling works better? It's the perfect counter to massed goons..use it. The End.
...Did you even bother to read my post? I CLEARLY explained why you should go hydra when muta/ling works better.
1. Since he's going goon, you can't scout his tech properly. Therefore you might get cought with a reaver before your spire comes out (not if you went 2-hatch-tech, but assuming you went 3-hatch and then realised he was massing goons, add some early harass and lings instead of drones at start and presto, you have a late spire).
Now what are you gonna do with lings versus shuttle/reaver? Are you going to lose half your drones and countless lings till some muta/scrouge come out? When six hydra could have saved your ass?
Also, a nice goon+reaver rush can cause you problems if he micros his reaver(s) good enough so it gets to fire 3-4 times. That's all it needs to get rid of your 20-30 lings.
2. Since he's going goon, you can't scout his tech properly. Therefore he might come out of his base with goons + 2-3 archons. Then how well will your muta/ling force stack up?
The basic idea with hydra is that he can't really surprise you. Not with sairs, not with reavers, not with archons. The only thing that can cause you problems is storm. But that's highly unlikely out of one gas. Further on, the situation changes.
You can't look at this just as "ah, that's the perfect counter". You have to realise which way the game will flow until it gets to the point where you can build the perfect counter, and most importantly, the perfect counter to what. 
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Hydras are more flexible incase something horrible happens, they own goons straight up w/ ling support. Mutalisks... well, they're 'sharper' if you prefer that description, hit mire venemously, but fail harder should something unplanned happens.
Overall hydra is safer imho.
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On July 12 2007 21:53 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
You should've stopped typing right after "LOL i m a huge noob". Why are you trying to argue with a good player when you have already admitted you don't know much? Your advice is vauge and poor. You should take the time to read and learn more before trying to give your own limited knowledge. And to you and cubedin...why go hydras when muta/ling works better? It's the perfect counter to massed goons..use it. The End.
Well typing "LOL" was stupid and seemed arrogant sry. But you dont need to be savior to understand the basics of zvp. You can even if you are noob. I said that zerg allows you to play with your own style so using hydras arent a that bad idea especially against goons.
Btw call my advice poor if you want but i least i try to explain my ideas whereas some ppl here flame me without making any constructive post.
But ok i wont use "LOL" anymore because people may feel offended, and it makes me sound arrogant. Moreover if i make another post on the strategy forum i wont say "i'm noob" because everyone will start to flame me.
Now stay on topic, and stop the flame. I wont post here during the next two weeks ( good holidays everyone ).
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I'm sorry, am I the only one who thinks that mutalisks have become a complete waste of time in ZvP? If the opponent tries any sort of FE, it's only going to prevent him from moving out with pure zealots, and your harass isn't going to do much damage after he lays a few cannons - especially if he's going sair like the OP said.
Hydralisk timing pushes off of 3-4 hats are very strong against anything that's not templar tech first.
[edit] And even then, it's not like you're gonna run your entire hydra force into his cannons and templars, right? [/edit]
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Yeah that was kinda my point too. Hydras can cope with pretty much everything, EXCEPT speedzeal/temp. Zeal temp, if not stopped in time will crush hydra, with equal economies (like zerg with 2 exps vs fe toss). Toss can get tons and tons of zeals, and microing will be far less effective. Not to mention storm.
However, in case of goons, you don't have to worry about speedzeals, so you're pretty much safe no matter what.
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Then again, the counter to speedzeals and templars/archons is lurkers, so you're good.
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On July 12 2007 21:53 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2007 11:13 Boblion wrote:On July 10 2007 09:23 Chill wrote:
Going Hydras against Dragoons is a pretty bad idea too. There's no reason not to go MutaLing. Other things can work, but you don't sacrifise anything by going MutaLing, and it is the proper counter. LOL i m a huge noob but i know that hydras rape goons with ease. They are cheaper and very good vs EVERY protoss units except high templar. Pure hydra will work until toss has massed a lot of high templar, so u can switch to ultraling late game. On the contrary goons arent good vs lings ( u need zeal, archon, ht ), mutas ( u need archon or sair ) and hydras ( u need speedzeal or ht ). Nevertheless they are usefull against lurks. edit: speedlots could be annoying if you have not a lot of hydras. ANd btw CubEdIn post is the best so far You should've stopped typing right after "LOL i m a huge noob". Why are you trying to argue with a good player when you have already admitted you don't know much? Your advice is vauge and poor. You should take the time to read and learn more before trying to give your own limited knowledge. And to you and cubedin...why go hydras when muta/ling works better? It's the perfect counter to massed goons..use it. The End.
People forget things really fast sometimes.
Didn't Savior lose three games in a row to Bisu with that mutaling vs goon/sair strat?
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Calgary25996 Posts
On July 13 2007 01:33 5HITCOMBO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2007 21:53 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On July 10 2007 11:13 Boblion wrote:On July 10 2007 09:23 Chill wrote:
Going Hydras against Dragoons is a pretty bad idea too. There's no reason not to go MutaLing. Other things can work, but you don't sacrifise anything by going MutaLing, and it is the proper counter. LOL i m a huge noob but i know that hydras rape goons with ease. They are cheaper and very good vs EVERY protoss units except high templar. Pure hydra will work until toss has massed a lot of high templar, so u can switch to ultraling late game. On the contrary goons arent good vs lings ( u need zeal, archon, ht ), mutas ( u need archon or sair ) and hydras ( u need speedzeal or ht ). Nevertheless they are usefull against lurks. edit: speedlots could be annoying if you have not a lot of hydras. ANd btw CubEdIn post is the best so far You should've stopped typing right after "LOL i m a huge noob". Why are you trying to argue with a good player when you have already admitted you don't know much? Your advice is vauge and poor. You should take the time to read and learn more before trying to give your own limited knowledge. And to you and cubedin...why go hydras when muta/ling works better? It's the perfect counter to massed goons..use it. The End. People forget things really fast sometimes. Didn't Savior lose three games in a row to Bisu with that mutaling vs goon/sair strat?
Savior wasn't going MutaLing, he was playing massively expansive hoping to get an economy up. Big difference. I have a feeling he wouldn't have stayed with Mutas for very long because he was getting Hydralisk upgrades anyways.
I'm pretty sure Bisu opened 1-2 Gate Corsair DT, not ranged Goons with Sair.
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Braavos36390 Posts
chill is 100% right
people are being way too theoretical in these threads
a game almost never works out in a way where you are going mass something vs mass something else, if he goes goons he WILL have templars to back them up very soon.
mutaling is the hard counter, you can use your mutas to harass his base and his cannons (3 cannons are NOT enough vs a muta ball, just kill them) and if he comes back to save, congrats you bought yourself another expansion
he can't move out with goon against mutaling until he gets templars and archons, and by that time you should either aim to either have enough bases/upgrades to outmass with a standard zerg army mix, or 3+ gas and have hive almost done
the problem with building so many goons midgame for P is that it wastes gas. you have less obs, less dt, less upgrades, but most importantly, not enough archons for late game. you really need every single templar against a good zerg, because goon+temp will not win against a zerg that can constantly reinforce with waves of lings. you run out of storms and your goons die really fast.
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Braavos36390 Posts
On July 13 2007 06:54 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2007 01:33 5HITCOMBO wrote:On July 12 2007 21:53 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On July 10 2007 11:13 Boblion wrote:On July 10 2007 09:23 Chill wrote:
Going Hydras against Dragoons is a pretty bad idea too. There's no reason not to go MutaLing. Other things can work, but you don't sacrifise anything by going MutaLing, and it is the proper counter. LOL i m a huge noob but i know that hydras rape goons with ease. They are cheaper and very good vs EVERY protoss units except high templar. Pure hydra will work until toss has massed a lot of high templar, so u can switch to ultraling late game. On the contrary goons arent good vs lings ( u need zeal, archon, ht ), mutas ( u need archon or sair ) and hydras ( u need speedzeal or ht ). Nevertheless they are usefull against lurks. edit: speedlots could be annoying if you have not a lot of hydras. ANd btw CubEdIn post is the best so far You should've stopped typing right after "LOL i m a huge noob". Why are you trying to argue with a good player when you have already admitted you don't know much? Your advice is vauge and poor. You should take the time to read and learn more before trying to give your own limited knowledge. And to you and cubedin...why go hydras when muta/ling works better? It's the perfect counter to massed goons..use it. The End. People forget things really fast sometimes. Didn't Savior lose three games in a row to Bisu with that mutaling vs goon/sair strat? Savior wasn't going MutaLing, he was playing massively expansive hoping to get an economy up. Big difference. I have a feeling he wouldn't have stayed with Mutas for very long because he was getting Hydralisk upgrades anyways. I'm pretty sure Bisu opened 1-2 Gate Corsair DT, not ranged Goons with Sair.
yes, bisu did not go range goon, and savior did not go mutaling
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EPT
