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ZvP counter dragoons - Page 4

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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RaGe
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Belgium9947 Posts
July 12 2007 22:47 GMT
#61
fuck this thread really sucks, and there's a lot of strat forum bans to be dealt out here
Moderatorsometimes I get intimidated by the size of my right testicle
YoUr_KiLLeR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States3420 Posts
July 12 2007 23:24 GMT
#62
On July 13 2007 01:33 5HITCOMBO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2007 21:53 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
On July 10 2007 11:13 Boblion wrote:
On July 10 2007 09:23 Chill wrote:
Going Hydras against Dragoons is a pretty bad idea too. There's no reason not to go MutaLing. Other things can work, but you don't sacrifise anything by going MutaLing, and it is the proper counter.



LOL i m a huge noob but i know that hydras rape goons with ease. They are cheaper and very good vs EVERY protoss units except high templar. Pure hydra will work until toss has massed a lot of high templar, so u can switch to ultraling late game. On the contrary goons arent good vs lings ( u need zeal, archon, ht ), mutas ( u need archon or sair ) and hydras ( u need speedzeal or ht ). Nevertheless they are usefull against lurks.

edit: speedlots could be annoying if you have not a lot of hydras. ANd btw CubEdIn post is the best so far

You should've stopped typing right after "LOL i m a huge noob". Why are you trying to argue with a good player when you have already admitted you don't know much? Your advice is vauge and poor. You should take the time to read and learn more before trying to give your own limited knowledge. And to you and cubedin...why go hydras when muta/ling works better? It's the perfect counter to massed goons..use it. The End.

People forget things really fast sometimes.

Didn't Savior lose three games in a row to Bisu with that mutaling vs goon/sair strat?

wtf no? savior didnt go mutaling nor did bisu go goon/sair.
what the fuck do you have to say for yourself now you protoss jackass can you retaliate in any way
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
July 12 2007 23:35 GMT
#63
rofl
SuperJongMan
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Jamaica11586 Posts
July 13 2007 00:04 GMT
#64
You know what beats Mass Goons from 1 base?

Many Many Drones. You really can't lose if you make like 30 drones and 2 sunken vs some sucker who thinks 3 gate goon in base is good or something. ~_~
POWER OVERWHELMING ! ! ! KRUU~ KRUU~
CubEdIn
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Romania5359 Posts
July 13 2007 01:43 GMT
#65
Okay you guys are starting to get really annoying.. If it's not a thread about the perefect way to go fast expo and +1 speedzeals you just diss it with things like muta/ling, next?

You're wrong. Good players know more than one strat in PvZ (OMG NO WAI!!!). So you might encounter someone who goes goons from one base and just go lings and get surprised by that reaver and go "ah damn it lucky bastard" when he just outplayed you fair and square.

But since you're all that stuck up (well not all, but most), then tell me why the hell did MoonShine (who is known as a good zerg at the moment) went hydra vs goons vs Andrei on pyton? Hm? Why not just ling/muta? If it's SO PERFECT AND DOESN'T REQUIRE ANY CONVERSATION.

Come on, did you even bother reading any of my posts? And I do mean people that posts things like "fuck this thread really sucks, and there's a lot of strat forum bans to be dealt out here".

If you don't care, then just don't read it. But it might have helped the original poster understand the game a little better, and why some things may work, why some are less efficient buy safer, and so on. So why don't you just go post in the speedzeals+1 standard-no-brain-robot play thread if you don't like this.
Im not a n00b, I just play like one.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
July 13 2007 02:21 GMT
#66
Okay, it's lunch time and I didn't pack a big lunch so I'll type what I was originally thinking when I posted "MutaLing, next."

You'd think Hydras are the counter to Dragoons, since they do explosive against large units (Dragoons) and are half the cost. The truth of the matter is, Dragoons dance really well against Hydralisks until they're surrounded. Toss in any terrain, like the bridges on Tau, or heaven help you if it's the middle of Longinus, and you will lose that battle. Yes, the strong counter to pure Hydralisks is ZealTemp, but realistically Dragoons are the soft counter. So there's no reason to go Hydras. You lose mobility, you deal less damage, you can't harass. It's pointless.

MutaLing on the other hand, never fails against Dragoons. Mutas eat the damage, Zerglings deal it. If he runs from a surround, you deal extra damage with Mutas. He can't stand and fight without taking damage and he can't run without taking damage. He's fucked. Additionally, he's spend so much gas on Dragoons he can't counter your Mutas. Mutas only have one ground Protoss counter - Archons. The less gas he spends on Archons the more control you have, the less he can move out, the more you expand, the more gas you get, the more Mutas you have, the more the game tips in your favour.Hydras do not rape Goons with ease.

To you: Yes I read your post. How are you going to get killed by Reavers when you went MutaLing. You're bring up point that don't make sense. ReaverGoon does not beat MutaLing, two Hatch or three Hatch, it doesn't matter.
Moderator
5HITCOMBO
Profile Joined March 2006
Japan2239 Posts
July 13 2007 05:34 GMT
#67
Why would you go pure hydralisks? Four hatch hydraling is much stronger, and it accomplishes basically the same thing as muta does by letting you expand while harassing his choke with upped hydras, with the lings right behind in case he tries to move out before he has templars. The harass is in a different spot, and your army is a bit less vulnerable to archon than it would be if you just went mutaling. And this argument has been going on long enough that I don't have to really explain why you have gas for two evo chambers.

Maybe I was a bit off saying that mutaling is outdated, but hydraling is still very viable. I have a really hard time making a conscious decision to go mutas when the opponent is making sairs.
I live in perpetual fear of terrorists and studio gangsters
w3jjjj
Profile Joined April 2007
United States760 Posts
July 13 2007 06:43 GMT
#68
i had a similar post earlier about toss double FE with goon/reaver, it seems muta/ling is definitely the best way to counter goon/reaver, and i assume reaver cuz no idiot uses pure goons, gets raped by pretty much anything.

in early game toss won't have enough gas to support both reaver and ht tech if hes building so many goons, so mutas are perfect, u will have troubles dealing with reavers however if u went hydra/ling, a nice dragoon dance and a some good reaver shots will rip ur ground army apart. mutas on the other hand takes forever to kill since dragoons do half damage to small units, so have ur lings do the raping after targeting reavers with mutas.

i don't see the point of arguing between muta and hydra, u have no need of hydras before toss get archons which he can't for a while, early game u can build much more lings than u can hydras so u get numerical superiority, by the time u have enough resources and toss got archons u can add as much hydras to ur army as u want, but in early game muta/ling > goon/reaver period, hydras are waste of money as they are less effectinve at that stage of the game.
Chuck Norris can salvage his opponent's structures.
beta.love
Profile Joined July 2007
United States1 Post
July 13 2007 10:33 GMT
#69
On July 09 2007 14:16 ilovezil wrote:
Although there are too many variables that you have not given, I'll assume what I'm thinking in my head and give you this:

In the zerg vs protoss matchup, I find that dragoons are most useful when breaking contains. The gas that dragoons eat up are better spent on templars, archons, and upgrades. Simple put, the more dragoons you force your opponent to make, the less storms and archons you'll encounter.

Now, from what I understand, your opponent is making dragoons at a very early stage in the game. This is a golden opportunity for you to either tech or upgrade safely while adding another hatchery (possibly as an expo). Mass speedlings are a favorable counter against early goons because goons are less easliy replacable than lings due to more costly and demanding production. Remember, you can always adapt to what your opponent does from this point; get lurkers if he decides to switch to zeals/ht/archon, and get mutas if he's going to persist in using goon/zeal.

Use a 3 hatch build to open. While you're whoring lings and drones, you can slowly tech and grab expoes since you won't be dealing with high tech power from the Protoss anytime soon. You'll be ahead of your opponent, even upgrade-wise if you keep researching carapace to deal with any power-ups on your opponent's weapon upgrade. From hereon out, just steamroll him with hydras, lurkers, mutas, ultras, whatever combination of Zerg that runs like diarhea from the overmind's ass.

However...I'm judging that you're around public newb level from your opening post, so I hope what I explained was helpful -_-.

EDIT: And against sairs, hydras are your best friends.


rofl nicely put :D
:)
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7227 Posts
July 13 2007 12:01 GMT
#70
hydra ling rapes goon zeal
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
July 13 2007 13:55 GMT
#71
On July 13 2007 01:33 5HITCOMBO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2007 21:53 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
On July 10 2007 11:13 Boblion wrote:
On July 10 2007 09:23 Chill wrote:
Going Hydras against Dragoons is a pretty bad idea too. There's no reason not to go MutaLing. Other things can work, but you don't sacrifise anything by going MutaLing, and it is the proper counter.



LOL i m a huge noob but i know that hydras rape goons with ease. They are cheaper and very good vs EVERY protoss units except high templar. Pure hydra will work until toss has massed a lot of high templar, so u can switch to ultraling late game. On the contrary goons arent good vs lings ( u need zeal, archon, ht ), mutas ( u need archon or sair ) and hydras ( u need speedzeal or ht ). Nevertheless they are usefull against lurks.

edit: speedlots could be annoying if you have not a lot of hydras. ANd btw CubEdIn post is the best so far

You should've stopped typing right after "LOL i m a huge noob". Why are you trying to argue with a good player when you have already admitted you don't know much? Your advice is vauge and poor. You should take the time to read and learn more before trying to give your own limited knowledge. And to you and cubedin...why go hydras when muta/ling works better? It's the perfect counter to massed goons..use it. The End.

People forget things really fast sometimes.

Didn't Savior lose three games in a row to Bisu with that mutaling vs goon/sair strat?

Sair/Goon is much different then mass goon or goon reaver-_- Bisu opened FE ---> Sair ---> then mass goons. It's much different. The mistake savior made was arrogance in his micro to be able to pick off the sairs...it didnt work. And he was actually winning after just the muta/ling phase (the game on reverse temple). The mistake came from not being prepared against bisu's awesomely timed Goon/reaver push with sair support behind the walls.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
CubEdIn
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Romania5359 Posts
July 13 2007 14:32 GMT
#72
w3jjjj, don't think that FE goons is the same as 1-base goons. That was my whole point. Sure, if he expos first then you have plenty of time to get mutas, AND build a nice economy so you can switch to hydra if you see archons. Sure!

But if he goes one base he can get reaver BEFORE YOUR MUTAS. What's so hard to belive? Did you not see tons of games where toss reaver drops zerg's main when spire is at 300-400? That's the best scenario. I know this, as a toss player, it's so great when you drop a reaver and see spire at 300-400 hp. It's like you have a solid 20 seconds to shoot at things and score as many kills as you can.

I was just saying that mutas are not that solid because he can:
a) get reaver before your mutas - you're severely screwed
b) get fast archons (not many, like 1-2, and try an attack with 8-10 goons and 2 archons, if you only have muta-ling then that's not going to fly too well)
c) out-micro you - this is kind of hard to accomplish, but if his reaver(s) manage to fire more than 2 times at your lings, they're pretty much gone, and you get a handfull of mutas fighting a lot of goons. not to mention he can out-micro your new-born lings since there won't be enough to deal with goons

I'm not saying goon is a viable strat, in fact it's probably one of the hardest strats to pull off in PvZ. But you can still pull it off, if zerg screws something up. Like getting spire just late enough so you can get your reaver in there.

...and please don't tell me it's impossible to get reavers before zerg gets muta. It happens a lot of times, it's all about the way the game goes.
Im not a n00b, I just play like one.
pyrogenetix
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
China5094 Posts
July 13 2007 17:31 GMT
#73
the thing with starcraft is that the skill levels vary so fucking vastly that sometimes giving advice is extremely difficult.

pvz mass goons? mutalisks and zerglings should school that EZ
Yea that looks just like Kang Min... amazing game sense... and uses mind games well, but has the micro of a washed up progamer.
Eatme
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
Switzerland3919 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-07-13 19:03:55
July 13 2007 19:02 GMT
#74
I dont have any comment on how to counter but here is a replay. Since I'm to lazy to host I'll link to the replay pack. Its GEKOTH Gurram vs Sillen and the replay is the last one in the pack.

http://www.gamingeye.com/pc/strategi/starcraft/nyheter/nyhet.eye?id=66419

Hope we can get some comments and thats someone could analyse that game. It's not that long but it's the only example on what goon running over zerg looks like.
If it's somehow a bad example someone with more skill have to stage some games.
I have the best fucking lawyers in the country including the man they call the Malmis.
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