EPTZvP counter dragoons - Page 4
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RaGe
Belgium9950 Posts
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On July 13 2007 01:33 5HITCOMBO wrote: People forget things really fast sometimes. Didn't Savior lose three games in a row to Bisu with that mutaling vs goon/sair strat? wtf no? savior didnt go mutaling nor did bisu go goon/sair. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Many Many Drones. You really can't lose if you make like 30 drones and 2 sunken vs some sucker who thinks 3 gate goon in base is good or something. ~_~ | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
You're wrong. Good players know more than one strat in PvZ (OMG NO WAI!!!). So you might encounter someone who goes goons from one base and just go lings and get surprised by that reaver and go "ah damn it lucky bastard" when he just outplayed you fair and square. But since you're all that stuck up (well not all, but most), then tell me why the hell did MoonShine (who is known as a good zerg at the moment) went hydra vs goons vs Andrei on pyton? Hm? Why not just ling/muta? If it's SO PERFECT AND DOESN'T REQUIRE ANY CONVERSATION. Come on, did you even bother reading any of my posts? And I do mean people that posts things like "fuck this thread really sucks, and there's a lot of strat forum bans to be dealt out here". If you don't care, then just don't read it. But it might have helped the original poster understand the game a little better, and why some things may work, why some are less efficient buy safer, and so on. So why don't you just go post in the speedzeals+1 standard-no-brain-robot play thread if you don't like this. | ||
Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
You'd think Hydras are the counter to Dragoons, since they do explosive against large units (Dragoons) and are half the cost. The truth of the matter is, Dragoons dance really well against Hydralisks until they're surrounded. Toss in any terrain, like the bridges on Tau, or heaven help you if it's the middle of Longinus, and you will lose that battle. Yes, the strong counter to pure Hydralisks is ZealTemp, but realistically Dragoons are the soft counter. So there's no reason to go Hydras. You lose mobility, you deal less damage, you can't harass. It's pointless. MutaLing on the other hand, never fails against Dragoons. Mutas eat the damage, Zerglings deal it. If he runs from a surround, you deal extra damage with Mutas. He can't stand and fight without taking damage and he can't run without taking damage. He's fucked. Additionally, he's spend so much gas on Dragoons he can't counter your Mutas. Mutas only have one ground Protoss counter - Archons. The less gas he spends on Archons the more control you have, the less he can move out, the more you expand, the more gas you get, the more Mutas you have, the more the game tips in your favour.Hydras do not rape Goons with ease. To you: Yes I read your post. How are you going to get killed by Reavers when you went MutaLing. You're bring up point that don't make sense. ReaverGoon does not beat MutaLing, two Hatch or three Hatch, it doesn't matter. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
Maybe I was a bit off saying that mutaling is outdated, but hydraling is still very viable. I have a really hard time making a conscious decision to go mutas when the opponent is making sairs. | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
in early game toss won't have enough gas to support both reaver and ht tech if hes building so many goons, so mutas are perfect, u will have troubles dealing with reavers however if u went hydra/ling, a nice dragoon dance and a some good reaver shots will rip ur ground army apart. mutas on the other hand takes forever to kill since dragoons do half damage to small units, so have ur lings do the raping after targeting reavers with mutas. i don't see the point of arguing between muta and hydra, u have no need of hydras before toss get archons which he can't for a while, early game u can build much more lings than u can hydras so u get numerical superiority, by the time u have enough resources and toss got archons u can add as much hydras to ur army as u want, but in early game muta/ling > goon/reaver period, hydras are waste of money as they are less effectinve at that stage of the game. | ||
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beta.love
United States1 Post
On July 09 2007 14:16 ilovezil wrote: Although there are too many variables that you have not given, I'll assume what I'm thinking in my head and give you this: In the zerg vs protoss matchup, I find that dragoons are most useful when breaking contains. The gas that dragoons eat up are better spent on templars, archons, and upgrades. Simple put, the more dragoons you force your opponent to make, the less storms and archons you'll encounter. Now, from what I understand, your opponent is making dragoons at a very early stage in the game. This is a golden opportunity for you to either tech or upgrade safely while adding another hatchery (possibly as an expo). Mass speedlings are a favorable counter against early goons because goons are less easliy replacable than lings due to more costly and demanding production. Remember, you can always adapt to what your opponent does from this point; get lurkers if he decides to switch to zeals/ht/archon, and get mutas if he's going to persist in using goon/zeal. Use a 3 hatch build to open. While you're whoring lings and drones, you can slowly tech and grab expoes since you won't be dealing with high tech power from the Protoss anytime soon. You'll be ahead of your opponent, even upgrade-wise if you keep researching carapace to deal with any power-ups on your opponent's weapon upgrade. From hereon out, just steamroll him with hydras, lurkers, mutas, ultras, whatever combination of Zerg that runs like diarhea from the overmind's ass. However...I'm judging that you're around public newb level from your opening post, so I hope what I explained was helpful -_-. EDIT: And against sairs, hydras are your best friends. rofl nicely put :D | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On July 13 2007 01:33 5HITCOMBO wrote: People forget things really fast sometimes. Didn't Savior lose three games in a row to Bisu with that mutaling vs goon/sair strat? Sair/Goon is much different then mass goon or goon reaver-_- Bisu opened FE ---> Sair ---> then mass goons. It's much different. The mistake savior made was arrogance in his micro to be able to pick off the sairs...it didnt work. And he was actually winning after just the muta/ling phase (the game on reverse temple). The mistake came from not being prepared against bisu's awesomely timed Goon/reaver push with sair support behind the walls. | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
But if he goes one base he can get reaver BEFORE YOUR MUTAS. What's so hard to belive? Did you not see tons of games where toss reaver drops zerg's main when spire is at 300-400? That's the best scenario. I know this, as a toss player, it's so great when you drop a reaver and see spire at 300-400 hp. It's like you have a solid 20 seconds to shoot at things and score as many kills as you can. I was just saying that mutas are not that solid because he can: a) get reaver before your mutas - you're severely screwed b) get fast archons (not many, like 1-2, and try an attack with 8-10 goons and 2 archons, if you only have muta-ling then that's not going to fly too well) c) out-micro you - this is kind of hard to accomplish, but if his reaver(s) manage to fire more than 2 times at your lings, they're pretty much gone, and you get a handfull of mutas fighting a lot of goons. not to mention he can out-micro your new-born lings since there won't be enough to deal with goons I'm not saying goon is a viable strat, in fact it's probably one of the hardest strats to pull off in PvZ. But you can still pull it off, if zerg screws something up. Like getting spire just late enough so you can get your reaver in there. ...and please don't tell me it's impossible to get reavers before zerg gets muta. It happens a lot of times, it's all about the way the game goes. | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
pvz mass goons? mutalisks and zerglings should school that EZ | ||
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
http://www.gamingeye.com/pc/strategi/starcraft/nyheter/nyhet.eye?id=66419 Hope we can get some comments and thats someone could analyse that game. It's not that long but it's the only example on what goon running over zerg looks like. If it's somehow a bad example someone with more skill have to stage some games. | ||
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