EPTwhat do i do?
ZvP counter dragoons
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Schones_Chaos
United States226 Posts
what do i do? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Schones_Chaos
United States226 Posts
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
If I was in your situation, I'd probably skip Mutalisk altogether and just go lurkling or something. If you've scouted out his base already you can also try to crush him with pure Drone drilling + Zerglings so you can bash down his Zealot wall and then continue on to kill his Dragoons with your Zerglings (Speedlings work better ofc). | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
:/ If he's gooning 90% he won't be able to afford templars, expect reavers, and use muta clumps to pick off templars. | ||
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NovaTheFeared
United States7222 Posts
On July 09 2007 11:33 Schones_Chaos wrote: Then he gets high templars and storms mutas/lings Tell me how he's getting mass goon/sair/storm while you're outexpanding him? | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
Ramp is a different story though. imo. toss wont be able to grab temp or reaver tech before u get a 3rd gas if hes going for a sizable number of goons. Zerg players gotta know how to split their units so they dont get massively stormed to death, so just snipe the temps as best as u can with mutas. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
if he's turtling, just contain? We'll see what it's like when you post rep i guess. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
next. | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
goons are always supported by reavers, and reavers are always carried in shuttles, if u can't contain a good toss, take a few scourges and try to snipe the shuttle, at the same time mass muta/ling and expand. i wouldn't attack a goon/reaver/cannon defense with only muta/ling...try ur best to contain. | ||
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LeoTheLion
China958 Posts
On July 09 2007 13:19 Chill wrote: MutaLing > Goon* next. agreed my worst mu is zvp but i know that 2 groups of ling + 1 group of muta can fuck up 2 groups of goons hard don't let him take his expo, and match his army while you expo/tech keep him on his toes by harassing with muta and chasing his corsairs with scourge | ||
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ilovezil
United States4143 Posts
In the zerg vs protoss matchup, I find that dragoons are most useful when breaking contains. The gas that dragoons eat up are better spent on templars, archons, and upgrades. Simple put, the more dragoons you force your opponent to make, the less storms and archons you'll encounter. Now, from what I understand, your opponent is making dragoons at a very early stage in the game. This is a golden opportunity for you to either tech or upgrade safely while adding another hatchery (possibly as an expo). Mass speedlings are a favorable counter against early goons because goons are less easliy replacable than lings due to more costly and demanding production. Remember, you can always adapt to what your opponent does from this point; get lurkers if he decides to switch to zeals/ht/archon, and get mutas if he's going to persist in using goon/zeal. Use a 3 hatch build to open. While you're whoring lings and drones, you can slowly tech and grab expoes since you won't be dealing with high tech power from the Protoss anytime soon. You'll be ahead of your opponent, even upgrade-wise if you keep researching carapace to deal with any power-ups on your opponent's weapon upgrade. From hereon out, just steamroll him with hydras, lurkers, mutas, ultras, whatever combination of Zerg that runs like diarhea from the overmind's ass. However...I'm judging that you're around public newb level from your opening post, so I hope what I explained was helpful -_-. EDIT: And against sairs, hydras are your best friends. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
right? T_T | ||
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BlueIris
Korea (South)107 Posts
On July 09 2007 18:53 evanthebouncy! wrote: You are in the state of newbie confusion where your greatest concern is "GOD NOTHING WORKS IMBA!" right? T_T Yes | ||
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I-Emerge
United States435 Posts
On July 09 2007 11:27 Schones_Chaos wrote: What if your playing zerg vs toss. They go for dragoons imediatly while stil blocking their ramp with zelots? if i go for mutas he get sairs.. what do i do? Hi Most of the people here has answer your question. I would liek to add that by the time he has a Sair you should have 1 to 3 hydra to keep your Ovys alive. Once your Muta come out you want to make some Scourge right away. Go to Toss's base with Muta and Scourge and kill his 1 or 2 Sair he has. ---I-Emerge | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
Oh wow! BlueIris is back! <3 | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
if you still lose, your macro bad! MORE HYDRA LING PLZ! I'd imagine his storm will be terribly late due to all that gas usage, but still be careful as ranged dragoon is strong! Work on your flanking and remember to focus fire on the dragoon! Double upgrade hydra and speedling is must. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
If you're just going to describe the situation without a replay, you need to be more specific. Does "immediate" goons mean goons before expansion? When you go muta are you opening 3 hat Lair or what? If he goes sairs to counter mutalisks, is that off of 1 gas, or does he already have his expansion? Etc. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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paper
13196 Posts
it was so sexy with all the micro :OOO anyone got? ^^ | ||
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
Later game you have to react to what he does, just keep your scouting up so you don't get caught with the wrong tech. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
The more likely situation would be that he'll be able to take his nat and you'll contain from there with lurks in which case you need to expand to 3rd and maybe your 4th expansion and make ling/hydra/lurk/scourge for contain while teching to ultra/ling or stay with lair tech and go for drops or something if you want. | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
a) mass speedlings b) mass hydra c) mass muta d) muta/ling or muta/hydra Any of these work if he's going goon from one base. Because the lack of gas will mean lack of proper support for goons. If he's getting goon/reaver (which is most likely) then hydra/muta will work. Just use mutas to target reavers/shuttle first. Then use your hydra to finish off the rest. Don't overexpand, and try to catch him on an open field. He can cause problems if you're trying to fight on a corridor. If he's going goon/templar then mass lings is great. Just be sure to send 2 groups of lings with move near his goons so he can't storm everything. A nice surround and he's toast. Goon/archon or goon/sair will die to mass hydra. Hydras are far cheaper and more effective than goons with equal economies, not to mention your eco will probably be better if he didn't apply any pressure at first. But seriously, Jonoman wtf? Going for lurk contain vs goon? You do know that goons is what tosses usually use to break out of heavy lurk contains right? Also "hope he doesn't have observer"? The best combo he could get is goon/reaver. Which means he probably has robotics, or was planning to get it anyway. Going for lurk contain is probably the worst idea vs goons. Seriously. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On July 10 2007 09:23 Chill wrote: Going Hydras against Dragoons is a pretty bad idea too. There's no reason not to go MutaLing. Other things can work, but you don't sacrifise anything by going MutaLing, and it is the proper counter. LOL i m a huge noob but i know that hydras rape goons with ease. They are cheaper and very good vs EVERY protoss units except high templar. Pure hydra will work until toss has massed a lot of high templar, so u can switch to ultraling late game. On the contrary goons arent good vs lings ( u need zeal, archon, ht ), mutas ( u need archon or sair ) and hydras ( u need speedzeal or ht ). Nevertheless they are usefull against lurks. edit: speedlots could be annoying if you have not a lot of hydras. ANd btw CubEdIn post is the best so far | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
On July 10 2007 09:01 CubEdIn wrote: DO NOT get lurks vs goons. That's the worst of your options. Seriously. Yeah they might work if you catch him well and surround with lings and such but why the hell would you go through all that trouble when you could: a) mass speedlings b) mass hydra c) mass muta d) muta/ling or muta/hydra Any of these work if he's going goon from one base. Because the lack of gas will mean lack of proper support for goons. If he's getting goon/reaver (which is most likely) then hydra/muta will work. Just use mutas to target reavers/shuttle first. Then use your hydra to finish off the rest. Don't overexpand, and try to catch him on an open field. He can cause problems if you're trying to fight on a corridor. If he's going goon/templar then mass lings is great. Just be sure to send 2 groups of lings with move near his goons so he can't storm everything. A nice surround and he's toast. Goon/archon or goon/sair will die to mass hydra. Hydras are far cheaper and more effective than goons with equal economies, not to mention your eco will probably be better if he didn't apply any pressure at first. But seriously, Jonoman wtf? Going for lurk contain vs goon? You do know that goons is what tosses usually use to break out of heavy lurk contains right? Also "hope he doesn't have observer"? The best combo he could get is goon/reaver. Which means he probably has robotics, or was planning to get it anyway. Going for lurk contain is probably the worst idea vs goons. Seriously. If he is seriously going to go dragoon off one base then you can just stay with mass hydra maybe hydra/ling but if you see he is teching archives (OP never said his opponent was going reaver/goon) then they will be gas deprived and they can't see lurks so can't attack them. And lurk/ling/hydra contain off of 2-3 bases from Z well positioned will rape goons because as soon as the P tries to attack the lurks the zerg just rushes their ling/hydra forward and demolish the P. With reavers in the mix it becomes a matter of if Z just wants to back off and expand more OR try to mass off of their existing 2-3 bases and try to power over the P in an attempt to stop the push out and pretty much end the game. -I agree that hydra/muta could work too. Lots of things could work because a P going one base goons just seems like a weak build while a FE to mass goon/reaver might be pretty viable. | ||
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On July 10 2007 11:13 Boblion wrote: LOL i m a huge noob but i know that hydras rape goons with ease. They are cheaper and very good vs EVERY protoss units except high templar. Pure hydra will work until toss has massed a lot of high templar, so u can switch to ultraling late game. On the contrary goons arent good vs lings ( u need zeal, archon, ht ), mutas ( u need archon or sair ) and hydras ( u need speedzeal or ht ). Nevertheless they are usefull against lurks. edit: speedlots could be annoying if you have not a lot of hydras. ANd btw CubEdIn post is the best so far yes, maybe if youre playing fastest map possible. otherwise, if youre going hydras and not mutas youre not exploiting the fact that goons are so immobile. | ||
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BalloonFight
United States2007 Posts
Hydra/Ling Muta/Ling Pure ling with double evo running ups Just pick one, I'd go with Muta/Ling as you can raid his workers as well. If he goes sairs and goons off of 1 base, make some scourge to pick off the sairs. If he switches to archons, you switch to hydra, etc etc. Play ZvP like Rock Paper Scissors and you win, as long as you switch to counter what he's going. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On July 10 2007 11:13 Boblion wrote: LOL i m a huge noob but i know that hydras rape goons with ease. They are cheaper and very good vs EVERY protoss units except high templar. Pure hydra will work until toss has massed a lot of high templar, so u can switch to ultraling late game. On the contrary goons arent good vs lings ( u need zeal, archon, ht ), mutas ( u need archon or sair ) and hydras ( u need speedzeal or ht ). Nevertheless they are usefull against lurks. edit: speedlots could be annoying if you have not a lot of hydras. ANd btw CubEdIn post is the best so far Why do I even try? GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I FUCKING HATE THE STRATEGY FORUM. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On July 10 2007 11:38 Chill wrote: Why do I even try? GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I FUCKING HATE THE STRATEGY FORUM. Well i just said that mass hydra can work vs nearly everything protoss has. I dont understand why it would be a bad idea to use it against goons. On July 10 2007 11:36 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote: yes, maybe if youre playing fastest map possible. otherwise, if youre going hydras and not mutas youre not exploiting the fact that goons are so immobile. I didnt said that mutas suck against goon ( mutaling is great imo ). I just said that mass hydra works also even if mutaling is more mobile. Moreover many top zerg players dont use muts vs p so dont call me fastest map player please. I'm noob but i m not retarded. | ||
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
On July 09 2007 11:33 Schones_Chaos wrote: Then he gets high templars and storms mutas/lings then ultralisk the shit out of him | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
There is no proper way to beat this, just micro out of the storm, as in only move the units in the storm out of the storm. It will come to by time. ^ and yea ultras kinda useless imo without lings...unless u have like 20 of them ^ mass anything only works if u have good micro...other wise 6 temps with storm can hurt really really bad. ^ toss has more options vs mutas, so muta harass not gonna work for long. its nice if u have them as part of ur force though. dont be afraid of a 1base toss build. as long as u kill their army when he coems out, you will be fine, cause tehrs no way hes going heavy goons and expecting any kind of tech along with that. by then, you would have like 4 gases and when u guyz kill each other off, you would have a serious upper hand. | ||
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LuDwig-
Italy1143 Posts
goon\reaver->muta corsair->scourge then when he go for ht u simply switch to hra simple as thati | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
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Wonders
Australia753 Posts
On July 10 2007 12:19 Boblion wrote: Well i just said that mass hydra can work vs nearly everything protoss has. I dont understand why it would be a bad idea to use it against goons. ... I didnt said that mutas suck against goon ( mutaling is great imo ). I just said that mass hydra works also even if mutaling is more mobile. Moreover many top zerg players dont use muts vs p so dont call me fastest map player please. I'm noob but i m not retarded. Mass hydra works against about nothing that the protoss has except for a pure goon army without templar. They're terrible against speedzeals and terrible against storm. | ||
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Resonate
United Kingdom8402 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On July 11 2007 22:18 Wonders wrote: Mass hydra works against about nothing that the protoss has except for a pure goon army without templar. They're terrible against speedzeals and terrible against storm. Read my posts: On July 10 2007 11:13 Boblion wrote: They are cheaper and very good vs EVERY protoss units except high templar. Pure hydra will work until toss has massed a lot of high templar, so u can switch to ultraling late game ---------------------------------------------------- edit: speedlots could be annoying if you have not a lot of hydras. ANd btw CubEdIn post is the best so far Well i think that speedzeal and ht arent the only protoss units. Are archon, slowzeal, reavers, goons, carriers, sairs nothing ? Because mass hydras works very well against it. Of course mutaling and hydraling ( u will usually have more mineral than vespene so you can use it to make lings ) can work too and be better ( depending on the situation ). | ||
riptide
5673 Posts
Good luck. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32051 Posts
On July 10 2007 12:19 Boblion wrote: Well i just said that mass hydra can work vs nearly everything protoss has. I dont understand why it would be a bad idea to use it against goons. I didnt said that mutas suck against goon ( mutaling is great imo ). I just said that mass hydra works also even if mutaling is more mobile. Moreover many top zerg players dont use muts vs p so dont call me fastest map player please. I'm noob but i m not retarded. SHUT THE FUCK UP IDIOT What happene to the strat forum bans? On July 10 2007 09:23 Chill wrote: Why do I even try? GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I FUCKING HATE THE STRATEGY FORUM. =[ not all of us are idiots | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
First of all, the mass hydra thing: It does work well against goons, goons/archon. It works against goon/reaver if you flank him well, and it works worst vs goon/templar. Keep in mind that hydras cost half of what a goon costs in everything but minerals, and that's close too. So with equal economies you will have 2 hydras per goon. Now I know this isn't what happens in games but as long as you MASS hydra they should work vs goon combos. Hydras suck vs speedzeals and storm, but just like in PvP, you can't go goon and strom from one gas. If you want support with your goons, you have to opt for reaver. Now, I know the OP didn't say anything about goon support, but you'll have to agree, it's practicly impossible to win with straight-pure goon vs a zerg that's close to your skill. So basicly, I think it's not that bad an idea to go hydra at first, since it would hold against reaver drops, sairs, and pure goon alike, rather than go muta, have to spend money on hive, and probably lings, and give him time to breathe. Besides, muta/ling can bring archons to the battlefield, in which case you will HAVE to switch strats. Just take moonshine vs andrei's game 2-3 weeks ago, @ python. Moonshine just rounded up hydras, and got mutas when he saw reaver coming, it worked really well too. Had he gone straight muta when he saw goons he would have been severely crippled by the first reaver drop. So bottom line, my point is: even though lings may be more effective and cheaper at first, you lose the ability to adapt to his strat, because, let's face it, you can't really use your overlords to scout if he's going goons, and if you have like 2 groups of lings and spire building and he lands a reaver in your base, then what?  | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On July 12 2007 06:16 Hawk wrote: SHUT THE FUCK UP IDIOT What happened to the strat forum bans? Why so much hate ? Explain me why you disagree instead of flaming. The main difference between zerg and protoss/terran is that you have a larger choice of units in every match up and as CubEdIn explained hydras work well against many protoss units combos. Nevertheless they suck against storm. But which zerg unit doesnt suck against storm ? I only see one: Ultras because they are uber strong. With their low hp lings are raped by storm ( but they are cheaper so it is a better choice ), guards are too slow, with lurks you cant even try to dodge and against muts protoss will morph his hts in archon so ... Hydras can have trouble against speedlots ( until u reach a critical hydra number ) and lurkerling is way better against it but still you can use and win with variations of hydras combos especially if you have a decent micro to dodge storms and of course "dance" with hydras. edit: is it a tradition to bash low-post count users on tl ? | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
The thing about mass hydra is, it's a horrible investment long-term, you get delayed tech and once he gets speedlots / ht they are just fodder. So, if he's cranking out 2-3 gate goon and getting range, I'd go for hydra/ling, because chances are someone who counters muta by teching to sair is not going to be able to counter mass hydra or hydra/ling properly. Don't get in the habit of doing it though. | ||
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On July 09 2007 21:08 Myrmidon wrote: I have to agree with the being outplayed. Your opponent may just be better, and have quicker reactions, better scouting, and more untis to begin with. If this is not the case i would either muta ling, or do this funny ling build i encouter as p, they just mas a HUGE amount of lings and by the time i have eight lots and a few goons they have almost fourty lings or so. I duno ive only been beaten by zergs...I play toss.Evan has the best insight here. It just sounds like you're getting outplayed. . | ||
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Gokey
United States2722 Posts
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InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
next. | ||
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Brutalisk
794 Posts
This is all the OP wanted to know. Additions: If he adds HTs/Speedzealots, then you add lurkers. Use leftover mutas to snipe HTs or harass his bases. Against archons it's not so clear, just throw everything you have at them. Hydras work best against archons (you can snipe them with a group of hydras) but if he has archons it means he also has quite a few HTs which are very strong against hydras... In general, it's all a matter of the right combination. Regularly scout your opponent's army and see what it's made of and what he is about to build, and build units accordingly. But there's no golden rule in ZvP. You may also win July style mass hydra vs. anything with excellent storm dodging, sniping of HTs, and dancing vs. Speedzealots if extreme microing like that is your style. Just know that one second of not taking care of your army and you might lose them all... | ||
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Pressure
7326 Posts
On July 12 2007 06:16 Hawk wrote: SHUT THE FUCK UP IDIOT FIGHT ME WITH MUTALING | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On July 10 2007 11:13 Boblion wrote: LOL i m a huge noob but i know that hydras rape goons with ease. They are cheaper and very good vs EVERY protoss units except high templar. Pure hydra will work until toss has massed a lot of high templar, so u can switch to ultraling late game. On the contrary goons arent good vs lings ( u need zeal, archon, ht ), mutas ( u need archon or sair ) and hydras ( u need speedzeal or ht ). Nevertheless they are usefull against lurks. edit: speedlots could be annoying if you have not a lot of hydras. ANd btw CubEdIn post is the best so far You should've stopped typing right after "LOL i m a huge noob". Why are you trying to argue with a good player when you have already admitted you don't know much? Your advice is vauge and poor. You should take the time to read and learn more before trying to give your own limited knowledge. And to you and cubedin...why go hydras when muta/ling works better? It's the perfect counter to massed goons..use it. The End. | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
On July 12 2007 21:53 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: And to you and cubedin...why go hydras when muta/ling works better? It's the perfect counter to massed goons..use it. The End. ...Did you even bother to read my post? I CLEARLY explained why you should go hydra when muta/ling works better. 1. Since he's going goon, you can't scout his tech properly. Therefore you might get cought with a reaver before your spire comes out (not if you went 2-hatch-tech, but assuming you went 3-hatch and then realised he was massing goons, add some early harass and lings instead of drones at start and presto, you have a late spire). Now what are you gonna do with lings versus shuttle/reaver? Are you going to lose half your drones and countless lings till some muta/scrouge come out? When six hydra could have saved your ass? Also, a nice goon+reaver rush can cause you problems if he micros his reaver(s) good enough so it gets to fire 3-4 times. That's all it needs to get rid of your 20-30 lings. 2. Since he's going goon, you can't scout his tech properly. Therefore he might come out of his base with goons + 2-3 archons. Then how well will your muta/ling force stack up? The basic idea with hydra is that he can't really surprise you. Not with sairs, not with reavers, not with archons. The only thing that can cause you problems is storm. But that's highly unlikely out of one gas. Further on, the situation changes. You can't look at this just as "ah, that's the perfect counter". You have to realise which way the game will flow until it gets to the point where you can build the perfect counter, and most importantly, the perfect counter to what.  | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
Overall hydra is safer imho. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On July 12 2007 21:53 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: You should've stopped typing right after "LOL i m a huge noob". Why are you trying to argue with a good player when you have already admitted you don't know much? Your advice is vauge and poor. You should take the time to read and learn more before trying to give your own limited knowledge. And to you and cubedin...why go hydras when muta/ling works better? It's the perfect counter to massed goons..use it. The End. Well typing "LOL" was stupid and seemed arrogant sry. But you dont need to be savior to understand the basics of zvp. You can even if you are noob. I said that zerg allows you to play with your own style so using hydras arent a that bad idea especially against goons. Btw call my advice poor if you want but i least i try to explain my ideas whereas some ppl here flame me without making any constructive post. But ok i wont use "LOL" anymore because people may feel offended, and it makes me sound arrogant. Moreover if i make another post on the strategy forum i wont say "i'm noob" because everyone will start to flame me. Now stay on topic, and stop the flame. I wont post here during the next two weeks ( good holidays everyone ). | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
Hydralisk timing pushes off of 3-4 hats are very strong against anything that's not templar tech first. [edit] And even then, it's not like you're gonna run your entire hydra force into his cannons and templars, right? [/edit] | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
However, in case of goons, you don't have to worry about speedzeals, so you're pretty much safe no matter what. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On July 12 2007 21:53 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: You should've stopped typing right after "LOL i m a huge noob". Why are you trying to argue with a good player when you have already admitted you don't know much? Your advice is vauge and poor. You should take the time to read and learn more before trying to give your own limited knowledge. And to you and cubedin...why go hydras when muta/ling works better? It's the perfect counter to massed goons..use it. The End. People forget things really fast sometimes. Didn't Savior lose three games in a row to Bisu with that mutaling vs goon/sair strat? | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On July 13 2007 01:33 5HITCOMBO wrote: People forget things really fast sometimes. Didn't Savior lose three games in a row to Bisu with that mutaling vs goon/sair strat? Savior wasn't going MutaLing, he was playing massively expansive hoping to get an economy up. Big difference. I have a feeling he wouldn't have stayed with Mutas for very long because he was getting Hydralisk upgrades anyways. I'm pretty sure Bisu opened 1-2 Gate Corsair DT, not ranged Goons with Sair. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
people are being way too theoretical in these threads a game almost never works out in a way where you are going mass something vs mass something else, if he goes goons he WILL have templars to back them up very soon. mutaling is the hard counter, you can use your mutas to harass his base and his cannons (3 cannons are NOT enough vs a muta ball, just kill them) and if he comes back to save, congrats you bought yourself another expansion he can't move out with goon against mutaling until he gets templars and archons, and by that time you should either aim to either have enough bases/upgrades to outmass with a standard zerg army mix, or 3+ gas and have hive almost done the problem with building so many goons midgame for P is that it wastes gas. you have less obs, less dt, less upgrades, but most importantly, not enough archons for late game. you really need every single templar against a good zerg, because goon+temp will not win against a zerg that can constantly reinforce with waves of lings. you run out of storms and your goons die really fast. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
On July 13 2007 06:54 Chill wrote: Savior wasn't going MutaLing, he was playing massively expansive hoping to get an economy up. Big difference. I have a feeling he wouldn't have stayed with Mutas for very long because he was getting Hydralisk upgrades anyways. I'm pretty sure Bisu opened 1-2 Gate Corsair DT, not ranged Goons with Sair. yes, bisu did not go range goon, and savior did not go mutaling | ||
RaGe
Belgium9947 Posts
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On July 13 2007 01:33 5HITCOMBO wrote: People forget things really fast sometimes. Didn't Savior lose three games in a row to Bisu with that mutaling vs goon/sair strat? wtf no? savior didnt go mutaling nor did bisu go goon/sair. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Many Many Drones. You really can't lose if you make like 30 drones and 2 sunken vs some sucker who thinks 3 gate goon in base is good or something. ~_~ | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
You're wrong. Good players know more than one strat in PvZ (OMG NO WAI!!!). So you might encounter someone who goes goons from one base and just go lings and get surprised by that reaver and go "ah damn it lucky bastard" when he just outplayed you fair and square. But since you're all that stuck up (well not all, but most), then tell me why the hell did MoonShine (who is known as a good zerg at the moment) went hydra vs goons vs Andrei on pyton? Hm? Why not just ling/muta? If it's SO PERFECT AND DOESN'T REQUIRE ANY CONVERSATION. Come on, did you even bother reading any of my posts? And I do mean people that posts things like "fuck this thread really sucks, and there's a lot of strat forum bans to be dealt out here". If you don't care, then just don't read it. But it might have helped the original poster understand the game a little better, and why some things may work, why some are less efficient buy safer, and so on. So why don't you just go post in the speedzeals+1 standard-no-brain-robot play thread if you don't like this. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
You'd think Hydras are the counter to Dragoons, since they do explosive against large units (Dragoons) and are half the cost. The truth of the matter is, Dragoons dance really well against Hydralisks until they're surrounded. Toss in any terrain, like the bridges on Tau, or heaven help you if it's the middle of Longinus, and you will lose that battle. Yes, the strong counter to pure Hydralisks is ZealTemp, but realistically Dragoons are the soft counter. So there's no reason to go Hydras. You lose mobility, you deal less damage, you can't harass. It's pointless. MutaLing on the other hand, never fails against Dragoons. Mutas eat the damage, Zerglings deal it. If he runs from a surround, you deal extra damage with Mutas. He can't stand and fight without taking damage and he can't run without taking damage. He's fucked. Additionally, he's spend so much gas on Dragoons he can't counter your Mutas. Mutas only have one ground Protoss counter - Archons. The less gas he spends on Archons the more control you have, the less he can move out, the more you expand, the more gas you get, the more Mutas you have, the more the game tips in your favour.Hydras do not rape Goons with ease. To you: Yes I read your post. How are you going to get killed by Reavers when you went MutaLing. You're bring up point that don't make sense. ReaverGoon does not beat MutaLing, two Hatch or three Hatch, it doesn't matter. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
Maybe I was a bit off saying that mutaling is outdated, but hydraling is still very viable. I have a really hard time making a conscious decision to go mutas when the opponent is making sairs. | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
in early game toss won't have enough gas to support both reaver and ht tech if hes building so many goons, so mutas are perfect, u will have troubles dealing with reavers however if u went hydra/ling, a nice dragoon dance and a some good reaver shots will rip ur ground army apart. mutas on the other hand takes forever to kill since dragoons do half damage to small units, so have ur lings do the raping after targeting reavers with mutas. i don't see the point of arguing between muta and hydra, u have no need of hydras before toss get archons which he can't for a while, early game u can build much more lings than u can hydras so u get numerical superiority, by the time u have enough resources and toss got archons u can add as much hydras to ur army as u want, but in early game muta/ling > goon/reaver period, hydras are waste of money as they are less effectinve at that stage of the game. | ||
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beta.love
United States1 Post
On July 09 2007 14:16 ilovezil wrote: Although there are too many variables that you have not given, I'll assume what I'm thinking in my head and give you this: In the zerg vs protoss matchup, I find that dragoons are most useful when breaking contains. The gas that dragoons eat up are better spent on templars, archons, and upgrades. Simple put, the more dragoons you force your opponent to make, the less storms and archons you'll encounter. Now, from what I understand, your opponent is making dragoons at a very early stage in the game. This is a golden opportunity for you to either tech or upgrade safely while adding another hatchery (possibly as an expo). Mass speedlings are a favorable counter against early goons because goons are less easliy replacable than lings due to more costly and demanding production. Remember, you can always adapt to what your opponent does from this point; get lurkers if he decides to switch to zeals/ht/archon, and get mutas if he's going to persist in using goon/zeal. Use a 3 hatch build to open. While you're whoring lings and drones, you can slowly tech and grab expoes since you won't be dealing with high tech power from the Protoss anytime soon. You'll be ahead of your opponent, even upgrade-wise if you keep researching carapace to deal with any power-ups on your opponent's weapon upgrade. From hereon out, just steamroll him with hydras, lurkers, mutas, ultras, whatever combination of Zerg that runs like diarhea from the overmind's ass. However...I'm judging that you're around public newb level from your opening post, so I hope what I explained was helpful -_-. EDIT: And against sairs, hydras are your best friends. rofl nicely put :D | ||
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Sadist
United States7225 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On July 13 2007 01:33 5HITCOMBO wrote: People forget things really fast sometimes. Didn't Savior lose three games in a row to Bisu with that mutaling vs goon/sair strat? Sair/Goon is much different then mass goon or goon reaver-_- Bisu opened FE ---> Sair ---> then mass goons. It's much different. The mistake savior made was arrogance in his micro to be able to pick off the sairs...it didnt work. And he was actually winning after just the muta/ling phase (the game on reverse temple). The mistake came from not being prepared against bisu's awesomely timed Goon/reaver push with sair support behind the walls. | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
But if he goes one base he can get reaver BEFORE YOUR MUTAS. What's so hard to belive? Did you not see tons of games where toss reaver drops zerg's main when spire is at 300-400? That's the best scenario. I know this, as a toss player, it's so great when you drop a reaver and see spire at 300-400 hp. It's like you have a solid 20 seconds to shoot at things and score as many kills as you can. I was just saying that mutas are not that solid because he can: a) get reaver before your mutas - you're severely screwed b) get fast archons (not many, like 1-2, and try an attack with 8-10 goons and 2 archons, if you only have muta-ling then that's not going to fly too well) c) out-micro you - this is kind of hard to accomplish, but if his reaver(s) manage to fire more than 2 times at your lings, they're pretty much gone, and you get a handfull of mutas fighting a lot of goons. not to mention he can out-micro your new-born lings since there won't be enough to deal with goons I'm not saying goon is a viable strat, in fact it's probably one of the hardest strats to pull off in PvZ. But you can still pull it off, if zerg screws something up. Like getting spire just late enough so you can get your reaver in there. ...and please don't tell me it's impossible to get reavers before zerg gets muta. It happens a lot of times, it's all about the way the game goes. | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5094 Posts
pvz mass goons? mutalisks and zerglings should school that EZ | ||
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
http://www.gamingeye.com/pc/strategi/starcraft/nyheter/nyhet.eye?id=66419 Hope we can get some comments and thats someone could analyse that game. It's not that long but it's the only example on what goon running over zerg looks like. If it's somehow a bad example someone with more skill have to stage some games. | ||
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