EPTZvT 5 racks counters
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Gromgrom
8 Posts
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
make your 3h muta optimized. must finish spire at 6:00. if you don't like this, go lurker into fast hive. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10253 Posts
Mutas are also important to keep alive while still dealing enough damage. Early ling/muta engages on early mnm forces to limit their numbers is the best, since if reinforcements group with the army, it is too large at that point for mid-game zerg forces to contest, unless they went mass lurker and delayed hive. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2041 Posts
To add on top of what Scan wrote, you can try to go very heavy on sunken, stay on 2 base and try to do some significant dmg with mutas. The problem here is as soon terran realizes what you're doing he can add multiple turrets while transitioning into SK terran. | ||
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Kodan
United States51 Posts
On June 12 2017 17:51 kogeT wrote: The biggest struggle when playing 3 hath vs 5 rax is to realize that you have to defend. If you want to be aggresive vs 5 rax it's basically a gamble where terran is favored. To add on top of what Scan wrote, you can try to go very heavy on sunken, stay on 2 base and try to do some significant dmg with mutas. The problem here is as soon terran realizes what you're doing he can add multiple turrets while transitioning into SK terran. Scan stated that you should get a spire done by 6:00. is that always necessary when going muta? I have been seeing some people delay their zling speed to get ground carapace upgrades but it delays the mutas just a teeny bit. would this work at the higher level of play anyway? | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2298 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10253 Posts
On June 13 2017 08:16 XenOsky- wrote: FlaSh's builds are just too solid, 2ble CC vs P and 5 rax +1 rines vs zerg seem unbeatable atm. what is 2ble CC? | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
Kodan: 3hatch 12 gas(which leads to 6:00 spire) is what is mostly used right now. The early carapace is used for crazy zerg builds which skip lurkers and get fast ultras, not the standard muta->lurker->defiler ZvT play. 12 gas is good against 5rax because it speeds up all of these timings, which means: less marines when mutas come out, less marines when you try to secure 3rd base with lurker on ramp. | ||
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Kodan
United States51 Posts
On June 13 2017 10:17 ortseam wrote: Yeah his TvT builds also seem unbeatable, even Last didn't stand a chance Kodan: 3hatch 12 gas(which leads to 6:00 spire) is what is mostly used right now. The early carapace is used for crazy zerg builds which skip lurkers and get fast ultras, not the standard muta->lurker->defiler ZvT play. 12 gas is good against 5rax because it speeds up all of these timings, which means: less marines when mutas come out, less marines when you try to secure 3rd base with lurker on ramp. ok thanks for the info! Is there any 12 pool variation of this? I have a hard time on iccup defeding BBS going 12 hatch so I started doing an early pool. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On June 13 2017 06:53 Kodan wrote: Scan stated that you should get a spire done by 6:00. is that always necessary when going muta? I have been seeing some people delay their zling speed to get ground carapace upgrades but it delays the mutas just a teeny bit. would this work at the higher level of play anyway? The reason why you want to get your mutas out very fast is that you want the terran army to not take control of center too early.. If you get mutas late MnM army is going to get too big and just kill you no matter how fantastic your micro is. So if you get mutas at 6:00 like scan suggested you force him to either move out with 12-15 MnM to pressure you or wait until he has a lot. At this point you would get lurker ready so most terrans will try to take advantage by goig out at 12-15 marine count. | ||
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[nkc]moon
30 Posts
On June 13 2017 08:16 XenOsky- wrote: FlaSh's builds are just too solid, 2ble CC vs P and 5 rax +1 rines vs zerg seem unbeatable atm. Apparently Everytime flash would go 5 rax in practice for asl final effort would shit on him | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
im guessing double cc? | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On June 13 2017 10:17 ortseam wrote: Yeah his TvT builds also seem unbeatable, even Last didn't stand a chance Kodan: 3hatch 12 gas(which leads to 6:00 spire) is what is mostly used right now. The early carapace is used for crazy zerg builds which skip lurkers and get fast ultras, not the standard muta->lurker->defiler ZvT play. 12 gas is good against 5rax because it speeds up all of these timings, which means: less marines when mutas come out, less marines when you try to secure 3rd base with lurker on ramp. 3h 12 gas is like 2:48. 2h 14? 15gas is at 2:40. 3h 12 gas is a little bit delayed. Just remember to put gas @2:40, but i would still prefer players to practice this guide that I made 2 years ago. ZvT Optimized 3 Hatchery Opening (2015) Build Order Description + Show Spoiler + 12 Hatchery 13 Spawning Pool 14 Hatchery 14 Gas at 16, make ONLY 6 zerglings Once you started making mutalisks, keep up having a lot of zerglings(Max 24 zerglings). 3 Hydralisks at your 3rd base and 3 Sunken Colonies for your natural. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On June 16 2017 03:32 LaStScan wrote: 3h 12 gas is like 2:48. 2h 14? 15gas is at 2:40. 3h 12 gas is a little bit delayed. Just remember to put gas @2:40, but i would still prefer players to practice this guide that I made 2 years ago. ZvT Optimized 3 Hatchery Opening (2015) Build Order Description + Show Spoiler + 12 Hatchery 13 Spawning Pool 14 Hatchery 14 Gas at 16, make ONLY 6 zerglings Once you started making mutalisks, keep up having a lot of zerglings(Max 24 zerglings). 3 Hydralisks at your 3rd base and 3 Sunken Colonies for your natural. What is 2:48, 2:40 referring to here? Is that the time you build your first extractor? I don't understand why 12 gas would give you a later extractor than 14/15 gas. | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On June 16 2017 03:49 Luddite wrote: What is 2:48, 2:40 referring to here? Is that the time you build your first extractor? I don't understand why 12 gas would give you a later extractor than 14/15 gas. it is referring to the game timer(not just beginner use it for). if you are gonna talk about supply count and stuff with 12 gas thing, that's not a good idea to begin with because you can even start 12 gas before pool... ^^ | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On June 16 2017 03:53 LaStScan wrote: it is referring to the game timer(not just beginner use it for). if you are gonna talk about supply count and stuff with 12 gas thing, that's not a good idea to begin with because you can even start 12 gas before pool... ^^ In ZvP, zerg goes gas @2:40 which is 15 supply count(I believe). | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On June 16 2017 03:56 LaStScan wrote: In ZvP, zerg goes gas @2:40 which is 15 supply count(I believe). Are these the three builds you're comparing? Fastest gas: + Show Spoiler + 12 Hatchery 13 Spawning Pool 15 Gas (2:40) 14 Hatchery vs 12 gas: + Show Spoiler + 12 Hatchery 13 Spawning Pool 13 Hatchery 12 Gas (2:48) vs your recommended build: + Show Spoiler + 12 Hatchery 13 Spawning Pool 14 Hatchery 14 Gas (later than 2:48?) | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
Gas time is more important than 3h. Trust me. My 3h guide is just a pure textbook lecture. Not too slow and not too fast and good against all of terran openings. 2:40 gas is important because you can have mutas and lurkers faster vs ebay first mm playstyle. Slower the zerg gas is, more struggle you will suffer from taking all those pressure by mm. Think it this way. You just got some harassment by 8 rax 3 scvs 3 rines and defended okay(lost 4-5 drones). Lets say you made only 4 lings because you wanted to recover your mining time. Will you still prefer to go 3h before gas against 8 rax small cheese into expansion? No. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On June 16 2017 10:30 LaStScan wrote: Think it this way. You just got some harassment by 8 rax 3 scvs 3 rines and defended okay(lost 4-5 drones). Lets say you made only 4 lings because you wanted to recover your mining time. Will you still prefer to go 3h before gas against 8 rax small cheese into expansion? No. Maybe I'm having too much  but you'll have to explain this more for me. Why not go 3h before gas in that situation? Is it because you feel like you already have enough of an economic advantage, so now you want to press for a tech advantage? | ||
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