TvZ: 1 base tank push - Page 2

On April 12 2017 22:09 ortseam wrote:
If he scouts 2 hatch muta, that's a good reason to not go for tank push (muta timing is 5:50-6:00)

On April 13 2017 03:02 ninazerg wrote:


Blindly going 2rax against random is not logical. This is something I would refer to as responding to an "imaginary threat", which is a trap many new players fall into. You know, that player who builds a ring of turrets around their whole base because they think, "Well, my opponent might be going air." This sort of akin to buying a new house, and then immediately investing 1,000 dollars into mouse-traps and other mouse counter-measures to get rid of the mice, and then find out the house is rodent-free. "There could have been mice." the buyer may say, and while they are technically correct in the sense that a rodent-infestation may have been possible, by simply taking the time to assess the situation in a logical manner, the poor 'investment' could have been avoided altogether.

Here's how this applies to Brood War: In TvR, you have to think of certain possibilities. If our opponent is Terran, they might go proxy double barracks, or if our opponent is Protoss, they might go double gateways, or if our opponent is Zerg, they might go 9 pool or 5 pool. If one plans on going 2 rax no matter what, then that's fine and okay and stuff. But if their plan includes getting an expansion so they can afford a factory-mech army, or a big infantry force supported by tanks and vessels, then that player absolutely should ask themselves: "Should I delay my overall plan because of a threat that may or may not be real, or can I realistically defend against that threat with just one barracks?"

So, you play someone who picks random on Matchpoint and you send an SCV to scout them out a little bit early, just to see what's happening in their neck of the woods. You go up to their base and see a nexus, but nothing else. Uh oh, proxy gateways. But because you're smart, you built a wall-off at your entrance. The only thing you need to check is if they built gateways IN your base. So you send one SCV, see that it's clear, so you know zealots are going to hit from the outside of your base. Then you defend that nonsense, send a vulture into his base, and voila, that noob paid the price for his lack of vision. By doing some simple scouting, and assessing the situation logically, you never had to make a second barracks.

Am I saying that a second barracks is never needed? No. If you see a situation that warrants a second barracks, then build it. You might need it to get the marine numbers to stop zerglings from running into your base during a 5pool. In most cases, there will not be a need to EVER go 2rax expo. Some pre-2006 pros liked to go 2rax expo, but then people developed a better sense of the game's flow and realized that the second barracks was unnecessary.

On April 13 2017 04:27 B-royal wrote:
Actually Demurity I have tested both variations, 13 rax and 16 rax. Your tech is delayed or your barracks will be idling if you go for a 13 barracks. Investing in the early 13 barracks forces you to utilize the barracks, which is another 50 minerals you have to dedicate towards marine production every 15 seconds when you want to invest into an academy/factory/scvs.

I'm interested in what you will come up with, please report your results.

Also at 16 supply it is very much possible to know what your opponent is doing if you scout him on first try.

On April 14 2017 10:56 Demurity wrote:
I did 3 trials. One your way, one mine, and another variation. I played against a CPU (just for build), so take the raw attack timings with a grain of salt, but it still is relative to each other.

Your way hit adjacent enemy base at 5:45. 12 marine with stim, 2 medic, 1 tank with siege.

My way hit adjacent enemy base at 5:00. 12 marine with stim, 2 medic, 1 tank with siege.

Variant hit at 5:30. Was very sloppy, not really worth noting.

Your way had significantly better econ (obviously, as you basically hold onto high amounts of minerals and dont cut scv).
My way hit significantly earlier and required some scv cuts in small pockets. With 1 base timing, it's pretty risky to push at 5:45 as this build will easily fall to 2 base muta play. With good execution, maybe 5:30 timing can win outright.

On April 14 2017 10:56 Demurity wrote:
I did 3 trials. One your way, one mine, and another variation. I played against a CPU (just for build), so take the raw attack timings with a grain of salt, but it still is relative to each other.

Your way hit adjacent enemy base at 5:45. 12 marine with stim, 2 medic, 1 tank with siege.

My way hit adjacent enemy base at 5:00. 12 marine with stim, 2 medic, 1 tank with siege.

Variant hit at 5:30. Was very sloppy, not really worth noting.

Your way had significantly better econ (obviously, as you basically hold onto high amounts of minerals and dont cut scv).
My way hit significantly earlier and required some scv cuts in small pockets. With 1 base timing, it's pretty risky to push at 5:45 as this build will easily fall to 2 base muta play. With good execution, maybe 5:30 timing can win outright.

On April 17 2017 05:16 L1ghtning wrote:
According to my experience with this strategy it's impossible to get a 12 marine 2 medic 1 tank push with siege mode and stim finished at 5:00. Just to get a tank out in time you need to go for regular mech timings, ie 11 rax 12 gas and factory immediately when you have 100 gas, I even think you have to delay the scv at 16 that puts you at 17, or the supply at 15. And you need 150 minerals for a second rax before that too. Forget 11 rax, 13 rax 13 gas. It's not fast enough. I assume you scout at 12 and you're playing on a normal map (not Python).

5:30-5:45 is realistic timings and early is not necessarily better. Even at the 5:45 timing you need to cut a lot of scv's. In my experience you will have to cut marines too, in order to get a push at 5 mins, or delay the second rax very long.

I mean, my personal build aims at 5:40~ and I was initially going with a 13 rax, but I delayed it to 15-16 just like B-royal did, because I realized that I couldn't build marines constantly anyway. And you're saying that you can not only get a 13 rax while maintaining constant marine production, but also get all the supply, the gas, factory, academy, tank, siege mode and stim 40 seconds earlier than me.

When I see it I will believe that it's possible.


The point of this build is not to auto-win. Although that sometimes happens against greedy 3 hatch play, you can't rely on that to happen. Your main goal is to destroy the 2nd mining base and contain and then slowpush the rest. I have even won games when I failed to destroy the hatchery before the 3h mutas popped. What happens depends on what he throws at you.

On April 20 2017 00:24 Dazed_Spy wrote:
You uploaded a zvp?