EPT! [G] TvP Building palcement vs Zealots - Page 6
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Fury_InCa
United States21 Posts
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YinYang69
United States255 Posts
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Pressure
7326 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On January 08 2008 12:57 Fury_InCa wrote: i wonder, could u press hold in middle of bunker/supply where marine could shoot at zealot, not move, and zealot couldnt reach it? yes you can but, it's really hard to fit it in there just right. The moment you do and he figures what's going on, he can just move away and attack an scv, forcing you out of your little gap, and you'll have trouble trying to fit back in it again. It is better to just move back and forth between the gap as needed. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
Also, I was under the impression that you could only put a rine in between the CC and Rax and not have the zealot able to attack your rine. It is possible just using a bunker/supply? | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On January 08 2008 13:31 Qatol wrote: I tried a few extra positions not in the images skyglow posted using the rax and the CC. Rax above the CC and in 3 of the corners does not work, but putting the rax below and to the right of the CC (right below where the comsat would go) also works. Also, I was under the impression that you could only put a rine in between the CC and Rax and not have the zealot able to attack your rine. It is possible just using a bunker/supply? I didn't do the corners cause I generally like things being like beside each other when the buildings are the same size  Yes it is possible with rax and supply (I think that's what you mean instead of bunker), but for some reason you cannot do it on a map like luna, but it does work on jungle tileset (like python). | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17743 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out. | ||
RaGe
Belgium9950 Posts
On January 08 2008 23:57 Chill wrote: Do you honestly think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations? Would you modify your play style after finding this out? I suppose the idea is that you need fewer Marines before starting your tech, but if you are doing Gundam or FD you have a surplus of minerals which are spent on Marines anyways... I don't see how this changes TvP at all other than some sort of Marineless build (1 Fact 1 Port or some Siege first expand). I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out. Well, Chill, FD Terran includes a 11 (or 12) rax/gas and factory before 2nd depot. Eventhough you'll make ~4 rines to go with your first tank, those 4 rines will be somewhat late. A quick zealot-first build can often delay FD. Eventhough I have to agree some of the setups in this thread are over the top (hey if you're gonna build 2depots and a barracks 3 squares away from your cc you might as well wall), the CC-Rax positioning is pretty damn common and can come in handy | ||
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wifebeater
178 Posts
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Tiamat
United States498 Posts
lings and marines are the same size correct? | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On January 08 2008 23:57 Chill wrote: Do you honestly think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations? Would you modify your play style after finding this out? I suppose the idea is that you need fewer Marines before starting your tech, but if you are doing Gundam or FD you have a surplus of minerals which are spent on Marines anyways... I don't see how this changes TvP at all other than some sort of Marineless build (1 Fact 1 Port or some Siege first expand). I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out. Erm for example on ICCup I end up finding this setup VERY useful in nearly half of my TvP games seeing as many tosses will send 2 or more zealots before making goons. Not only do you need less marines before starting tech, you defend so much better with the marines you have against the first couple of zealots. If you have solid micro, your defense is pretty much perfect and you will not suffer any losses (except for maybe a little slowdown to your build order if he attacks the scv building the fact). You don't even need to pull any scvs to defend unless you see there's more zealots coming and you want to hold your ramp. And anyway, the point isn't to alter your playstyle or build order. It's to do something useful with your intial buildings which helps you immensly vs a zealot rush. There's no concrete reason not to do it, and when you do it, it helps so much. Also, this isn't some random theorycraft I'm just throwing out there. I've used this in every one of my TvP games, and it's proven itself to be a valuable tool in early game. I don't "think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations", I know it is more than that, at least for me it is, and I'm sure many other terran players. It was in the old recommended threads section but if you don't want to put it for the people to see in the new recommended threads then fine. | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On January 09 2008 04:32 Tiamat wrote: What about lings? lings and marines are the same size correct? Lings will go through the gaps that marines can go through. This doesn't mean all the positions that have a cross beside them will stop lings. Some of them have crosses because they let both rines and zealots through (and thus also lings). | ||
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
On January 09 2008 04:44 skyglow1 wrote: Erm for example on ICCup I end up finding this setup VERY useful in nearly half of my TvP games seeing as many tosses will send 2 or more zealots before making goons. Not only do you need less marines before starting tech, you defend so much better with the marines you have against the first couple of zealots. If you have solid micro, your defense is pretty much perfect and you will not suffer any losses (except for maybe a little slowdown to your build order if he attacks the scv building the fact). You don't even need to pull any scvs to defend unless you see there's more zealots coming and you want to hold your ramp. And anyway, the point isn't to alter your playstyle or build order. It's to do something useful with your intial buildings which helps you immensly vs a zealot rush. There's no concrete reason not to do it, and when you do it, it helps so much. Also, this isn't some random theorycraft I'm just throwing out there. I've used this in every one of my TvP games, and it's proven itself to be a valuable tool in early game. I don't "think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations", I know it is more than that, at least for me it is, and I'm sure many other terran players. It was in the old recommended threads section but if you don't want to put it for the people to see in the new recommended threads then fine. What's wrong with walling? I'm trying to get to the theory of why you would ever do this. What advantages does this afford that a single Marine and a wall don't? It seems overcomplicated - you can't leave your Marine on hold position because of it's low range, so you're going to end up using a ton of micro anyways. | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On January 09 2008 05:14 Chill wrote: What's wrong with walling? I'm trying to get to the theory of why you would ever do this. What advantages does this afford that a single Marine and a wall don't? It seems overcomplicated - you can't leave your Marine on hold position because of it's low range, so you're going to end up using a ton of micro anyways. The buildings are much closer to your scvs than if you built a wall, speeding up your build. You also won't have any annoyances with a toss who tries to mess with your wall by sitting around where the last supply is meant to go or whatever. You'll also waste less mining time if you need to fend off the probe thats harassing your building scv. If you compare doing this setup to just normal placements of buildings (not wall), then with the normal placement you'll need to be pulling scvs and microing them too. With thsi setup you can just micro the rines and that will pretty much be enough. | ||
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
Regardless I put it in the recommended threads to let people decide for themselves. Knowing which setups are Zealot-proof is necessary for making walls on the fly anyways. | ||
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NoDDiE
Poland170 Posts
 not all maps let u make wall , and only a few are viable for 1 depo 1 rax wall - so "make wall" isn't something always available about running with marine - the advantage is HUGE compared with price (nothing?). you need to build depo so it doesn't matter where it is - and 1 depo near cc won't really mess ur base (if its rax just lift off) and you gain ability to return fire with rine. without depo//rax help in 1v1 marine vs zeal toss is "the boss" he chooses what to do - chase rine , attack scv or retreat. and usually t doesn't have the option to strike back (unless p goes for scv's). and with this t can force p to attack scv's or escape (or zeal will die after time if he keeps going after marine which strikes back)so T is "the boss" now. it may sound as minor issue , but in the beggining of tvp 1 zealot can REALLY annoy t and with this "trick" you gain psychological advantage too XD (forcing 1 zeal to retreat with just 1 rine without scv help is priceless).also i have question regarding the first situation with cc and depo - does it have to be in exact positon , or can it be 1 block (up down), and are there any other options involing cc+building? and btw good post | ||
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naventus
United States1338 Posts
The problem with this though is that with just a bit of lag, it's really difficult - and it's very tricky if too many zeals get in your base (maybe then throw down a bunker?). Note though that I use this almost exclusively and rarely wall. | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On January 09 2008 05:55 Chill wrote: I still feel the advantages are too few. Instead of running the Marine like normal, you're going to be... running the Marine out of his hole and then retreating back. Meanwhile he has free reign of targetting SCVs, especially the Factory SCV. If you further alter your build to place the Factory quite close to your Comman Center, it's now in a non-ideal position in terms of a late-game Factory setup, as shown in your screen shots. Obviously you could lift it and float it to a better spot, but if you do that you've just forfeited the small timing advantage that you sought to gain from this entire thing to start with. Regardless I put it in the recommended threads to let people decide for themselves. Knowing which setups are Zealot-proof is necessary for making walls on the fly anyways. Well the only thing you'll have to really actively micro is the marine, compared to having to pull scvs if you didn't do the setup, and this is advantageous. He doesn't ahve free reign on the factory scv. If he tries to attack it, you attack his zealot. The moment he goes for your zealot, you move towards the gap. If he goes back for the scv again, you can reactly quickly adn resume shooting at him. If your factory is scv is about to die, you can replace it very quickly since the factory is close. The first factory I'll admit is in a somewhat awkward position. However, that doesn't mean you need to place the next factories beside it and end up with a poor placement. Just place your next few factories in the ideal spot. 1 factory in a strange spot isn't going to affect you much, if at all. And no you'd never lift because that's just not a smart thing to do. | ||
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