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! [G] TvP Building palcement vs Zealots

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-09 21:47:46
August 16 2006 13:42 GMT
#1
Alot of people complain about how to stop zealots in TvP when walling is not an option. Most people would say "Make rines and micro them with scv". There is also a little trick which many should consider. Certain building placements will allow a marine to go through the gap between 2 buildings, but not a zealot.

The theory
I did the research on placing buildings that you would have in early game TvP, and here are the placements that work and don't:

[image loading]



Extending the theory
Now that you know which combinations and positions of buildings work, you can experiment in putting these together to make a really solid setup, or you can just go with the supply+rax combo on any map. Here are some examples to start you thinking about what makes a good setup:

[image loading]


[image loading]


And from regarding this thread:
[Q] 1st supply placement

[image loading]


[Edit]!!! I'm very hesistant to recommend this special setup. I tried it in an ICCup game, but the zealot manage to fit through. It seems if the zealot is going after your rine, it will go through the gap, but not if you use a move command to try and get it through. Stay with rax+supply or rax+cc in the normal configurations because it is safer.

Applying the theory to real games
Once you have this special gap, what do you do with it? Basically, zealots will have to walk around the buildings the long way, while your rine can walk straight through the gap. If he does take the long way around, just walk through the gap and continue shooting. If he goes for an scv, don't be afraid to attack him, and when he heads for your rine again, just dive towards the gap. Similarly, if he heads for your mineral line, attack him with the rine and retreat to the gap when needed. Also retreat scvs that getting attacked.

Something that is quite important to note is that when you have 2 or more marines to control, to get them all through the gap, you have to spam move or else they'll get confused. Do not attack until you have all the rines safe on the other side of the buildings. I have lost a couple of rines because when 1 rine walks through, the gap is blocked for a moment, so the other rines try and go the long way around and get confused. Spamming move will avoid this.

Also, I tend to place my next supplies adjacent to the existing ones without thinking. This sometimes leads to really awkward groups of supplies that clog my base up. Think carefully about where the supplies go and how you can place it so that the next supplies you make will be in a neat place.

Pros and Cons
If you use this technique properly, you are perfectly safe with 1 marine vs the first zealot if you have good micro. It also saves mining time compared to building a wall because your scvs do not have to travel so far away and back (and you won't get annoying tosses building a pylon at your wall or anything).

When 2 or more zealots come, you start to get into trouble. Obviously he can trap your rines by simply attacking from both sides of the gap. By then however, you should have a vult building if you took good care of your scv that's building your factory (and this is why you need the factory close to your setup, so it can build as fast as possible without being held up). If he sends goons after that, they will be a problem without a wall too, but some scvs to hold your ramp should be enough.

This idea is not mine, and I read it when someone said "nada puts his rax beside his cc so he can run his rine through and make a maze". Also, please don't try and say things like "lol youre a retard" etc without trying it yourself in a game.

niteReloaded's work
All credit goes to him of course, and he covers all the different possible positions with each combination of buildings, plus some examples of setups on RLT and RH3:

  • CC+Baracks combos:
    + Show Spoiler +

    1. Baracks left, CC right:
    [image loading]


    2. Baracks up, CC down:
    [image loading]


    3. Baracks right, CC left:
    [image loading]


    4. Baracks down, CC up:
    [image loading]




  • Barracks + Supply combos
    + Show Spoiler +

    1. Supply left&right of the baracks:
    [image loading]


    2. Supply up&down of the barracks:
    [image loading]



  • CC + supply combos:
    No matter how you put them next to each other, not a marine nor a zealot can go in between.
    (Had a picture of it, but apparently I dont have it anymore. This one shouldnt be too hard to understand )



Practical use:
I made all starting positions for the RLT and RHIII so that you get the idea of how to use this in a real game.

  • Reverse Temple:
    + Show Spoiler +

    1. 12 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    2. 6 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    3. 8 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    4. (Once again, it seems that the 2 o'clock position of RLT has disappeared from my hard drive so you'll just have to do this as a homework ^ ^)

  • Rush Hour III:
    + Show Spoiler +

    1. 3 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    2. 7 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    3. 11 o'clock position:
    [image loading]




Summary of all this information

1. A rax, with a supply on the right of it is good in any arrangement as long as they are adjacent.
2. A CC, with a rax to the right of it is good in any arrangement as long as they are adjacent.
3. 2 supplies right beside each other is good.
4. All other arrangements are basically useless.

Just like how people experiment with FE setups in PvZ, do a bit of research yourself on the maps you like to play and memorize the setups for each position. If you're playing on a map where you haven't done the experimenting, then you can stick with your simple CC+Rax or Supply+Rax combos.

Note: To test out quickly on a map, pick toss against a terran computer, then mc the scv that builds the first rax. The computer will sit there and do nothing from then on.
bine
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States2352 Posts
August 16 2006 13:45 GMT
#2
nice! awesome graphics etc. skyglow! had no idea this was possible.
Alborz
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Canada1551 Posts
August 16 2006 13:53 GMT
#3
Thank you :O
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32274 Posts
August 16 2006 14:04 GMT
#4
Man pics explain it so easy. Guides and advice should be followed by pics all the time <3
Moderator<:3-/-<
Alborz
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Canada1551 Posts
August 16 2006 14:15 GMT
#5
On August 16 2006 23:04 IntoTheWow wrote:
Man pics explain it so easy. Guides and advice should be followed by pics all the time <3

Werd.
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17726 Posts
August 16 2006 16:22 GMT
#6
Shit this is nice
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
deus_073
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
Romania187 Posts
August 16 2006 23:05 GMT
#7
^_^ nice
comabreaded
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
United States2166 Posts
August 16 2006 23:23 GMT
#8
on luna i had top right and did the rax placement in the 2nd ss. the zeal came and my marine was spazzing in a circle till he died while i clicked frantically, and my opponent was like "?"

!!!
I put the fu in fun
SCNewb
Profile Joined June 2006
Canada2210 Posts
August 16 2006 23:28 GMT
#9
it makes a lot more sense now..thanks
Huge iloveOov fan
ShabZzoY!
Profile Joined July 2004
Great Britain760 Posts
August 16 2006 23:43 GMT
#10
FANCY
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
August 16 2006 23:59 GMT
#11
Oh, that's sexy.
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
hall-
Profile Joined August 2006
United States22 Posts
August 17 2006 00:04 GMT
#12
oh~
7=K, l_=n,_l_=oh, T=oo~as in pool~ l=i,e, o=null consonant,v (right side up)=s,l- =a~as in bat~, -l=o,~as in hOt~, l= =ya,=l =yo~as in yawn~Korean keyboard -_-,want
ROOTheognis
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States4482 Posts
August 17 2006 00:26 GMT
#13
awesome. so left side of rax alongside cc? gotcha :o]
If you avoid your weakness, it will remain your weakness. www.twitter.com/#!/rootheognis Follow me!
Larva
Profile Joined November 2005
United States363 Posts
August 17 2006 01:27 GMT
#14
Ahah, I learned this the hard way by walling wrong and being rushed early by zealots when I played Terran, but those facts I know, and helped me a lot against gay proxies/cheesers :\.
LOL AT THIS GUY ABOVE ME.
QuietIdiot
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
7004 Posts
August 17 2006 03:12 GMT
#15
can zerglings make their way around? +_+
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
August 17 2006 03:35 GMT
#16
yeah lings can get in
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
strik.fr
Profile Joined May 2006
France212 Posts
August 17 2006 04:54 GMT
#17
Good thanks ..finally a smart trick. Funny pics
my top 5 forever 1)nada 2)julyzerg 3)iloveoov 4)Boxer 5)Nal_ra
MyLostTemple *
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2921 Posts
August 17 2006 04:58 GMT
#18
On August 17 2006 12:12 QuietIdiot wrote:
can zerglings make their way around? +_+


quiet idiot!
Follow me on twitter: CallMeTasteless
LegendaryDreams
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Canada1350 Posts
August 17 2006 05:48 GMT
#19
so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
call me moxie
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
August 17 2006 05:50 GMT
#20
You're fucked.

But on a more serious note i think rax+depot would work there.
Blind
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States2528 Posts
August 17 2006 05:54 GMT
#21
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote:
so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
August 17 2006 05:58 GMT
#22
It seems like the setup doesn't really cover your mineral line, though, as marine range is only 4. T_T In the bottom two pictures (gosu pics btw), can't the zealots just walk around to the mining scvs and hit them without being attacked?
Diablo666
Profile Joined October 2005
United States306 Posts
August 17 2006 06:06 GMT
#23
On August 17 2006 14:58 Myrmidon wrote:
It seems like the setup doesn't really cover your mineral line, though, as marine range is only 4. T_T In the bottom two pictures (gosu pics btw), can't the zealots just walk around to the mining scvs and hit them without being attacked?


then you micro your marine to hit and run ?
No soy mala yerba, solo yerba en mal lugar
WastedYouth
Profile Joined March 2006
United States563 Posts
August 17 2006 06:22 GMT
#24
micro between 2 supply depots. Most people tend to build them next to each other anyways.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Skill is what happens when luck becomes habit
IIICodeIIIIIII
Profile Joined April 2006
China1101 Posts
August 17 2006 07:44 GMT
#25
On August 17 2006 14:54 Blind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote:
so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.


no no no, you should lift your command center, tell your scvs to stop, and float your rax to land as close to minerals as possible. then tell ur command center to land. this will slow down your minerals, but hey, if you lose, you're terran so who cares.

<------------- p player. pvt is hard enough as it is. without little things like this. why not rush with this? huh?? huh!!?
thedeadhaji *
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
39489 Posts
August 17 2006 08:05 GMT
#26
I really want to see someone put depot next to the CC, then not be able to get comsat and get raped XD
dronebabo
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
10866 Posts
August 17 2006 08:31 GMT
#27
--- Nuked ---
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
August 17 2006 12:13 GMT
#28
On August 17 2006 14:58 Myrmidon wrote:
It seems like the setup doesn't really cover your mineral line, though, as marine range is only 4. T_T In the bottom two pictures (gosu pics btw), can't the zealots just walk around to the mining scvs and hit them without being attacked?


You can attack the zealot, and if he comes after you you run to your little gap, and if he decides to attack you just run through and he goes the long way around. If he decides to go for your scvs again after chasing you away you go and attack him again.
outqast
Profile Joined October 2005
United States287 Posts
August 17 2006 15:28 GMT
#29
I have tried about a zillion times and i cant get it to work with the supply...
Command center + rax works great
but command center + supply your marine cant get through
which incidentally might be a great idea for a block so there is no way to fit your marine in that gap

and rax supply depot I can't get to work because the zealot always is able to attack the rine.
Alborz
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Canada1551 Posts
August 17 2006 15:41 GMT
#30
On August 17 2006 16:44 IIICodeIIIIIII wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2006 14:54 Blind wrote:
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote:
so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.


no no no, you should lift your command center, tell your scvs to stop, and float your rax to land as close to minerals as possible. then tell ur command center to land. this will slow down your minerals, but hey, if you lose, you're terran so who cares.

<------------- p player. pvt is hard enough as it is. without little things like this. why not rush with this? huh?? huh!!?

At my level, I find PvT much easier than TvP =/
CruiseR
Profile Joined November 2004
Poland4014 Posts
August 17 2006 15:57 GMT
#31
good work, thx ;]
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
August 17 2006 17:27 GMT
#32
On August 18 2006 00:28 outqast wrote:
I have tried about a zillion times and i cant get it to work with the supply...
Command center + rax works great
but command center + supply your marine cant get through
which incidentally might be a great idea for a block so there is no way to fit your marine in that gap

and rax supply depot I can't get to work because the zealot always is able to attack the rine.


Try set it up exactly like the 4th pic, you don't need the cc on the left but place the supply depot like that in relation to the rax. It worked in the test game I used for the screen shots
ahk-gosu
Profile Joined July 2004
Korea (South)2099 Posts
August 17 2006 17:31 GMT
#33
when there are maps that are hard to wall like luna, i just either get 4 or 5 marines and expo or i make about 3 and go 2 fac.

also im pretty sure you can wall luna with 3 suppy depot and rax.
Micro.Macro.Scouting.Harassment.
Reason
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United Kingdom2770 Posts
August 17 2006 18:21 GMT
#34
thanks for your help skyglow!

also, if the minerals are to the right of your cc you make a supply to the left and then a barracks to the left of that?? or do you make a barracks to the left and then a supply depot to the left of that?? im asking this because this:
On August 17 2006 14:54 Blind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote:
so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.

doesn't answer Legendary's question, one which I pose too, in any way whatsoever. It does in fact seem to be ignoring it completely... in simple terms:
Q) what do I do if I can't build to the right
A) build to the right
riight
Speak properly, and in as few words as you can, but always plainly; for the end of speech is not ostentation, but to be understood.
diverse
Profile Joined August 2006
Australia72 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-17 19:10:26
August 17 2006 19:09 GMT
#35
[image loading]


Might not be applicable in different places, but that's Arcadia 11oclock's nat.

Please don't laugh at my APM :[
ROOTheognis
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States4482 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-17 19:41:30
August 17 2006 19:41 GMT
#36
hahahahahahah 136 loollololoo hahhaha

i always like skyglow's strat posts
If you avoid your weakness, it will remain your weakness. www.twitter.com/#!/rootheognis Follow me!
SpaCe)Ment-rA
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada389 Posts
August 17 2006 21:22 GMT
#37
Thanks so much skyglow1 !
In the moonlight, dancing madly backwards
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3697 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-17 21:27:55
August 17 2006 21:27 GMT
#38
On August 18 2006 00:28 outqast wrote:
I have tried about a zillion times and i cant get it to work with the supply...
Command center + rax works great
but command center + supply your marine cant get through
which incidentally might be a great idea for a block so there is no way to fit your marine in that gap

and rax supply depot I can't get to work because the zealot always is able to attack the rine.

Make sure the top-left corner of the supply is just barely below the top-right of the barracks. If its a tiny bit above, then the barracks will technically be "below" it, and almost any time that happens, you get a "wall condition".
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
lakrismamma
Profile Joined August 2006
Sweden543 Posts
August 17 2006 23:52 GMT
#39
Nice but still the zeeaot have time to kill like 3 scv before the marine kills it?
I hear thunder but theres no rain. This type of thunder breaks walls and window panes.
MyLittlePwny
Profile Joined July 2006
Canada171 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-18 01:04:05
August 18 2006 01:02 GMT
#40
Intresting concept, usefull in early game, but the second a goon shows up with a zeal or 2 your in trouble. After initial rush having a choke point is very important. This opening will lead to intense micro for terran costing him time, Perhaps opening with 8 rax will stop the proxy rush but where will that leave u in terms of tech timing. I would like to see an 8-9 rax opening for a metal build on maps such as these. hmm...8 rax 1 fact 1 port may be effective (vults or tanks ur choice keeping in mind how much toss has spent on zeals). But i myself usually have no trouble holding a proxy with 10 rax rine pump into a gundam. Maybe 8 rax 15 fact then expo ? realitivly slow opening in terms of offense but that doesnt stop terrans these days. Any ideas?
When all else fails, Blame the guy who cant speak english.
dronebabo
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
10866 Posts
August 18 2006 01:18 GMT
#41
--- Nuked ---
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
August 18 2006 01:27 GMT
#42
PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.

This guide was very informative, very good.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
August 18 2006 01:33 GMT
#43
On August 17 2006 16:44 IIICodeIIIIIII wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2006 14:54 Blind wrote:
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote:
so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.


no no no, you should lift your command center, tell your scvs to stop, and float your rax to land as close to minerals as possible. then tell ur command center to land. this will slow down your minerals, but hey, if you lose, you're terran so who cares.

<------------- p player. pvt is hard enough as it is. without little things like this. why not rush with this? huh?? huh!!?


Brilliant Idea!
Terran rushes protoss with a handful of SCV/marines and build mass supply depots instead of bunkers and micros them to death.
Sounds like an awesome way to toy a newb eh? xD
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
outqast
Profile Joined October 2005
United States287 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-18 01:41:43
August 18 2006 01:40 GMT
#44
On August 18 2006 02:27 skyglow1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2006 00:28 outqast wrote:
I have tried about a zillion times and i cant get it to work with the supply...
Command center + rax works great
but command center + supply your marine cant get through
which incidentally might be a great idea for a block so there is no way to fit your marine in that gap

and rax supply depot I can't get to work because the zealot always is able to attack the rine.



Try set it up exactly like the 4th pic, you don't need the cc on the left but place the supply depot like that in relation to the rax. It worked in the test game I used for the screen shots


This is what happened when i tried it :-(
[image loading]


[image loading]
Night[Mare
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Mexico4793 Posts
August 18 2006 01:49 GMT
#45
On August 17 2006 12:35 intrigue wrote:
yeah lings can get in


in fact zerglings get anywhere
Teamliquidian townie
Night[Mare
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Mexico4793 Posts
August 18 2006 01:52 GMT
#46
On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote:
PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.

This guide was very informative, very good.


remember protoss need to whine about how imba sc is and that protoss suck so much.
Teamliquidian townie
OverTheUnder
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2929 Posts
August 18 2006 02:21 GMT
#47
On August 18 2006 10:49 Night[Mare] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2006 12:35 intrigue wrote:
yeah lings can get in


in fact zerglings get anywhere


no true afaik:X There are certain maps, and building placements where u can block completely. I remember on LT, a factory and acadamy did just that. (I want to say a xellos or nad game where they went 2 port wraith) Obvioisly wont matter vs 9 pool, but still;P
Honor would be taking it up the ass and curing all diseases, damn how stupid can people get. -baal http://puertoricanbw.ytmnd.com/
CGMU
Profile Joined February 2006
Peru48 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-18 03:37:04
August 18 2006 03:32 GMT
#48
On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote:
PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.

This guide was very informative, very good.


Of course, its not a hard macth-up for toss because PvT IS imbalanced.,:terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush.and why i think PvT is imbalanced?because terran doesnt have an early static defense, like cannons or sunkens,.
Heen
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
Korea (South)2178 Posts
August 18 2006 04:31 GMT
#49
Eh? TvP is the most balanced non-mirror match-up.
('''(G_G/'''')
ROOTheognis
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States4482 Posts
August 18 2006 04:55 GMT
#50
On August 18 2006 12:32 CGMU wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote:
PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.

This guide was very informative, very good.


Of course, its not a hard macth-up for toss because PvT IS imbalanced.,:terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush.and why i think PvT is imbalanced?because terran doesnt have an early static defense, like cannons or sunkens,.


no... rofl

u can stop a zlot rush perfectly just with marine/scv micro
If you avoid your weakness, it will remain your weakness. www.twitter.com/#!/rootheognis Follow me!
Never Post
Profile Joined July 2004
United Kingdom503 Posts
August 18 2006 06:10 GMT
#51
On August 18 2006 10:40 outqast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2006 02:27 skyglow1 wrote:
On August 18 2006 00:28 outqast wrote:
I have tried about a zillion times and i cant get it to work with the supply...
Command center + rax works great
but command center + supply your marine cant get through
which incidentally might be a great idea for a block so there is no way to fit your marine in that gap

and rax supply depot I can't get to work because the zealot always is able to attack the rine.



Try set it up exactly like the 4th pic, you don't need the cc on the left but place the supply depot like that in relation to the rax. It worked in the test game I used for the screen shots


This is what happened when i tried it :-(


You're meant to run through, not just stand in between, because the Zealot can't fit through.
Note to self: [You have short term memory loss - you did post this]
iNsaNe-
Profile Joined January 2005
Finland5201 Posts
August 18 2006 06:25 GMT
#52
I'm rudely hijacking this thread for my own selfish purposes and asking where do you get that LiveAPM-thing?
It takes a fool to remain sane.
BalloonFight
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States2007 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-18 06:45:29
August 18 2006 06:44 GMT
#53
On August 18 2006 15:25 iNsaNe- wrote:
I'm rudely hijacking this thread for my own selfish purposes and asking where do you get that LiveAPM-thing?


Download BWlauncher if you don't have it already. Then run that with b-net. Then in game type (backslash)apmlive (or (backslash)liveapm, i forgot which one. )

And to the guy who said tvp is imbalanced because of early game zealots: No.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
August 18 2006 06:52 GMT
#54
On August 18 2006 12:32 CGMU wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote:
PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.

This guide was very informative, very good.


Of course, its not a hard macth-up for toss because PvT IS imbalanced.,:terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush.and why i think PvT is imbalanced?because terran doesnt have an early static defense, like cannons or sunkens,.

thats the least of the problems
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
CGMU
Profile Joined February 2006
Peru48 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-18 07:52:02
August 18 2006 07:32 GMT
#55
On August 18 2006 15:44 BalloonFight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2006 15:25 iNsaNe- wrote:
I'm rudely hijacking this thread for my own selfish purposes and asking where do you get that LiveAPM-thing?


Download BWlauncher if you don't have it already. Then run that with b-net. Then in game type (backslash)apmlive (or (backslash)liveapm, i forgot which one. )

And to the guy who said tvp is imbalanced because of early game zealots: No.


Give reasons, dont just say NO.and it is imbalanced since terran must wall-in to survive the rush
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-18 10:04:40
August 18 2006 09:56 GMT
#56
On August 18 2006 10:02 MyLittlePwny wrote:
Intresting concept, usefull in early game, but the second a goon shows up with a zeal or 2 your in trouble. After initial rush having a choke point is very important. This opening will lead to intense micro for terran costing him time, Perhaps opening with 8 rax will stop the proxy rush but where will that leave u in terms of tech timing. I would like to see an 8-9 rax opening for a metal build on maps such as these. hmm...8 rax 1 fact 1 port may be effective (vults or tanks ur choice keeping in mind how much toss has spent on zeals). But i myself usually have no trouble holding a proxy with 10 rax rine pump into a gundam. Maybe 8 rax 15 fact then expo ? realitivly slow opening in terms of offense but that doesnt stop terrans these days. Any ideas?


Well think about it this way. If you're playing on luna, FD is a very viable build. If you did not place your buildings in any special way, you would fight off the first zealots (if toss went zealots into goons at the start) by using your typical scv + marine micro running around etc. Most people don't have trouble with taking on the first goon + zealot because the tank is coming out soon by then. By usign the placement of the buildings to make that special gap, you can relieve the pressure of the zealot by not having to use scvs to stop the zealots.

On August 18 2006 03:21 Reason wrote:
thanks for your help skyglow!

also, if the minerals are to the right of your cc you make a supply to the left and then a barracks to the left of that?? or do you make a barracks to the left and then a supply depot to the left of that?? im asking this because this:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2006 14:54 Blind wrote:
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote:
so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.

doesn't answer Legendary's question, one which I pose too, in any way whatsoever. It does in fact seem to be ignoring it completely... in simple terms:
Q) what do I do if I can't build to the right
A) build to the right
riight


Diverse got it right in his pic. It doesn't matter where your rax + supply combination is, just not too far away from your mineral line so its easier to defend your mineral line. Here's a simple explanation:

Case 1: Minerals are to the right of your cc; solution = rax + supply (supply is on the right side of the rax).
Case 2: Minerals are not to the right of your cc; solution = raxn on the right side of cc, or supply on the right side of a rax.

On August 18 2006 15:10 Never Post wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2006 10:40 outqast wrote:
On August 18 2006 02:27 skyglow1 wrote:
On August 18 2006 00:28 outqast wrote:
I have tried about a zillion times and i cant get it to work with the supply...
Command center + rax works great
but command center + supply your marine cant get through
which incidentally might be a great idea for a block so there is no way to fit your marine in that gap

and rax supply depot I can't get to work because the zealot always is able to attack the rine.



Try set it up exactly like the 4th pic, you don't need the cc on the left but place the supply depot like that in relation to the rax. It worked in the test game I used for the screen shots


This is what happened when i tried it :-(


You're meant to run through, not just stand in between, because the Zealot can't fit through.


You can place it in the middle but its hard to do that accurately. Better to just run through when youre microing hard and trying to macro at the same time. I'll try that palcement on luna and see if I can get it to work outqast.

[Edit] Funny that... it doesn't seem to work on Luna in that placement. The zealot still cant go through and you can do the running trick, but you cant place your marine and leave it there so the zealots cant touch the rine. As you can see in the 4th pic those 2 zealots are walking around aimlessly so it works on LT. Just do the run through thing.

On August 18 2006 08:52 lakrismamma wrote:
Nice but still the zeeaot have time to kill like 3 scv before the marine kills it?


Run your scv thats getting hit to another mineral before it dies. If he goes after your marine, run towards the gap and through it if you need.
outqast
Profile Joined October 2005
United States287 Posts
August 18 2006 14:08 GMT
#57
ahhhh i knew it wasn't crazy.

I can sit the rine in there if it is rax + cc and it works. Thanks though that is a cool tip.
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
August 19 2006 07:53 GMT
#58
On August 18 2006 11:21 OverTheUnder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2006 10:49 Night[Mare] wrote:
On August 17 2006 12:35 intrigue wrote:
yeah lings can get in


in fact zerglings get anywhere


no true afaik:X There are certain maps, and building placements where u can block completely. I remember on LT, a factory and acadamy did just that. (I want to say a xellos or nad game where they went 2 port wraith) Obvioisly wont matter vs 9 pool, but still;P


Rax/depot on 9 LT stops lings AFAIK

On August 18 2006 12:32 CGMU wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote:
PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.

This guide was very informative, very good.


Of course, its not a hard macth-up for toss because PvT IS imbalanced.,:terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush.and why i think PvT is imbalanced?because terran doesnt have an early static defense, like cannons or sunkens,.


Ignoring obviously bad maps like Guillotine...

1. Let's take a look at stats. http://www.pgtour.net/ladder.stats.php , http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=15963 , http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=15932

2. But wait, stats mean nothing. (insert rant about good players v bad players). Okay, let's try to find other Terrans sharing a similar concern as you do, as clearly it is a serious problem if they face such enormous odds stacked against them in every TvP. So let's try to find people whining about PvT imbalance by searching for "PvT imbalance" at TeamLiquid. http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q="pvt imbalance" , aka no results, as none of those threads mention that PvT is imbalanced. Compare to http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q="pvz imbalance"

3. But let's imagine, that despite this overwhelming evidence, let's pretend that you, CGMU, have stumbled upon something that no one has yet discovered in a game dating back many many years, a game in which zealot rush v Terran must never have been attempted despite it being mainstream against both other races, and this monumental discovery could be one that would allow you to go down in history with such other brilliant Starcraft strategists such as the author of the Official Prima Strategy Guide and that guy that peddles that ProGamer book that Leg did a chapter for. So let's consider your masterful reasoning.

terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush


(I'm not even going to dignify your comment on lack of static defense with a response. Not only does T have static defense:

[image loading]


anyone who needs to use them in TvP is about as deserving of posting in the Strategy Forum of this website as a wasted baboon.)


According to you, you need to wall-in in order to "SURVIVE" a zealot rush (ignoring such trivialities like "micro" or "not sucking hard at build order", since attack-move is obviously all anyone needs).

Therefore, on maps where you can't wall-in, it's impossible to "SURVIVE" said zealot rush without "perfect" building placement.

Which is why, of course, Terran loses every single TvP game on Luna, or Hunters, or Blizzard's old LT at the 6 position, or any of the other eighty thousand maps where walling is impossible.

Goddamn, you should be in Korea winning every tournament with nothing but your juggernaut war-machine zealots raping every T ever. Who needs micro and macro when you have your PATENTED CGMU PVT ZEALOT RUSH FREEWIN ability?
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
August 19 2006 08:34 GMT
#59
On August 19 2006 16:53 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2006 11:21 OverTheUnder wrote:
On August 18 2006 10:49 Night[Mare] wrote:
On August 17 2006 12:35 intrigue wrote:
yeah lings can get in


in fact zerglings get anywhere


no true afaik:X There are certain maps, and building placements where u can block completely. I remember on LT, a factory and acadamy did just that. (I want to say a xellos or nad game where they went 2 port wraith) Obvioisly wont matter vs 9 pool, but still;P


Rax/depot on 9 LT stops lings AFAIK


I think you need to place it in a certain way for that to work. The way I usually use doesn't block the lings, but if you replace one of the supply depots in any block with a academy then AFAIK it blocks the lings out.
Blind
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States2528 Posts
August 19 2006 08:45 GMT
#60
On August 18 2006 03:21 Reason wrote:
thanks for your help skyglow!

also, if the minerals are to the right of your cc you make a supply to the left and then a barracks to the left of that?? or do you make a barracks to the left and then a supply depot to the left of that?? im asking this because this:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2006 14:54 Blind wrote:
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote:
so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.

doesn't answer Legendary's question, one which I pose too, in any way whatsoever. It does in fact seem to be ignoring it completely... in simple terms:
Q) what do I do if I can't build to the right
A) build to the right
riight

This is what I was describing. This does block zealots as long as the marine is not too close to the bottom or top while it's between the rax and depot.

[image loading]
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-19 09:45:23
August 19 2006 09:44 GMT
#61
On August 18 2006 16:32 CGMU wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2006 15:44 BalloonFight wrote:
On August 18 2006 15:25 iNsaNe- wrote:
I'm rudely hijacking this thread for my own selfish purposes and asking where do you get that LiveAPM-thing?


Download BWlauncher if you don't have it already. Then run that with b-net. Then in game type (backslash)apmlive (or (backslash)liveapm, i forgot which one. )

And to the guy who said tvp is imbalanced because of early game zealots: No.


Give reasons, dont just say NO.and it is imbalanced since terran must wall-in to survive the rush

Hehe, I remember back in the good old days, before Luna was ever created.. I used to play PvT PvZ TvP and because I was (am) crazy (or just trying to be contrary, much like how I picked protoss - everyone said they were the weakest - and I insist on defending PvZ as a balanced matchup - and have for most of the time I've played BW), I naturally decided to copy the most unique terran player for my TvP.

Who?

V-Gundam.

Never, ever walls in (now there's tons of people who don't but back then everyone except him and a couple of others - boxer doing it every now and then - walled).

Ah man, only did gundam rushes for more than a year, probably 2. Wasn't great at it tho, but fun build.

Ahem, back to the point: no, you don't need to wall-in to survive, make non-stop marines from the barrack, maybe get a vulture before your machineshop if he insists on making more zealots.

Position them at ramp.

Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
MyTHicaL
Profile Joined November 2005
France1070 Posts
August 19 2006 09:49 GMT
#62
sexy pics... Now when i get the urge to change race i wont die in 3mins on luna tvp like normal ^^;
Heen
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
Korea (South)2178 Posts
August 19 2006 10:10 GMT
#63
If it's in that exact position, there is no way a zealot can hit it.
('''(G_G/'''')
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16985 Posts
August 19 2006 10:20 GMT
#64
On August 19 2006 16:53 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2006 11:21 OverTheUnder wrote:
On August 18 2006 10:49 Night[Mare] wrote:
On August 17 2006 12:35 intrigue wrote:
yeah lings can get in


in fact zerglings get anywhere


no true afaik:X There are certain maps, and building placements where u can block completely. I remember on LT, a factory and acadamy did just that. (I want to say a xellos or nad game where they went 2 port wraith) Obvioisly wont matter vs 9 pool, but still;P


Rax/depot on 9 LT stops lings AFAIK

Show nested quote +
On August 18 2006 12:32 CGMU wrote:
On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote:
PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.

This guide was very informative, very good.


Of course, its not a hard macth-up for toss because PvT IS imbalanced.,:terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush.and why i think PvT is imbalanced?because terran doesnt have an early static defense, like cannons or sunkens,.


I just raped the above poster lolololo
Moderator
CGMU
Profile Joined February 2006
Peru48 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-19 15:49:10
August 19 2006 15:48 GMT
#65
[QUOTE]On August 19 2006 16:53 GrandInquisitor wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 18 2006 11:21 OverTheUnder wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 18 2006 10:49 Night[Mare] wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 17 2006 12:35 intrigue wrote:
yeah lings can get in[/QUOTE]

in fact zerglings get anywhere[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]On August 18 2006 12:32 CGMU wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote:
PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.

This guide was very informative, very good.[/QUOTE]

Of course, its not a hard macth-up for toss because PvT IS imbalanced.,:terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush.and why i think PvT is imbalanced?because terran doesnt have an early static defense, like cannons or sunkens,.[/QUOTE]

Ignoring obviously bad maps like Guillotine...

1. Let's take a look at stats. [url=http://www.pgtour.net/ladder.stats.php]http://www.pgtour.net/ladder.stats.php[/url] , [url=http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=15963]http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=15963[/url] , [url=http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=15932]http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=15932[/url]

2. But wait, stats mean nothing. (insert rant about good players v bad players). Okay, let's try to find other Terrans sharing a similar concern as you do, as clearly it is a serious problem if they face such enormous odds stacked against them in every TvP. So let's try to find people whining about PvT imbalance by searching for "PvT imbalance" at TeamLiquid. [url=http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=%22pvt+imbalance%22]http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=%22pvt+imbalance%22[/url] , aka no results, as none of those threads mention that PvT is imbalanced. Compare to [url=http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=%22pvz+imbalance%22]http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=%22pvz+imbalance%22[/url]

3. But let's imagine, that despite this overwhelming evidence, let's pretend that you, CGMU, have stumbled upon something that no one has yet discovered in a game dating back many many years, a game in which zealot rush v Terran must never have been attempted despite it being mainstream against both other races, and this monumental discovery could be one that would allow you to go down in history with such other brilliant Starcraft strategists such as the author of the Official Prima Strategy Guide and that guy that peddles that ProGamer book that Leg did a chapter for. So let's consider your masterful reasoning.

[quote]terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush[/quote]

(I'm not even going to dignify your comment on lack of static defense with a response. Not only does T have static defense:

[img]http://www.rpgclassics.com/subsites/starcraft/images/bunker.gif[/img]

anyone who needs to use them in TvP is about as deserving of posting in the Strategy Forum of this website as a wasted baboon.)


According to you, you need to wall-in in order to "SURVIVE" a zealot rush (ignoring such trivialities like "micro" or "not sucking hard at build order", since attack-move is obviously all anyone needs).

Therefore, on maps where you can't wall-in, it's impossible to "SURVIVE" said zealot rush without "perfect" building placement.

Which is why, of course, Terran loses every single TvP game on Luna, or Hunters, or Blizzard's old LT at the 6 position, or any of the other eighty thousand maps where walling is impossible.

Goddamn, you should be in Korea winning every tournament with nothing but your juggernaut war-machine zealots raping every T ever. Who needs micro and macro when you have your PATENTED CGMU PVT ZEALOT RUSH FREEWIN ability?[/QUOTE]

?? korea?no thanks,i and by the way i say early static defense, zergs have sunkens, toss have cannons, and terran must wait until barracks is made to have a bunker and then fil it with marines,¿dont you think is fair for terran to have something similar tu a cannons or a sunken?that can be made early, before making any barracks ?
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-19 19:01:38
August 19 2006 19:00 GMT
#66
CGMU:
Zerg has to make a spawning pool before they can make a sunken.

Protoss has to make a forge before they can make a cannon.

The bunker is by far the faster of the 3 ; [ (ie you don't need to make a special building for it, unlike toss forge, no creep colony before it either).
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
exalted
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States3612 Posts
August 19 2006 19:40 GMT
#67
God CGMU shut up.

Skyglow, I was vaguely familiar with the concept of sticking Marines between buildings to be invulnerable to zealots, but your illustrations really fleshed it out clearly for me. Sweet stuff, props .
too easy
CubEdIn
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Romania5359 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-19 20:08:54
August 19 2006 20:04 GMT
#68
I don't know if many people know this, so I decided to share some anti-ling building placements:
[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


So basicly, they have problems going between supply and academy, this works on many maps, but I chose lost temple because I knew all positions. Also there are certain perfect-blocks with 2 buildings like on 9 lt, or 1 o'clock memory cell. Probably many of you knew but, for those who didn't, maybe this helps.

P.S. I'm not a terran player so if any of this contradicts game logic in any way (like academy too soon), don't come to me asking for B.O.s or smth.

Edit: shrunk them a bit so they're faster to load.
Im not a n00b, I just play like one.
superjoppe
Profile Joined December 2004
Sweden3683 Posts
August 19 2006 20:33 GMT
#69
isnt academy and supply the same size? o.O
Myxomatosis
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States2392 Posts
August 19 2006 20:57 GMT
#70
On August 20 2006 05:33 superjoppe wrote:
isnt academy and supply the same size? o.O


i think it has more to do with how they are shaped. supplies have more room between them when placed at an angle next to each other i guess. cool find though. But honestly, unless you are doing something wierd TvZ. you don't really need a wall, and by the time you get an academy, you would definitely have enough rines to hold your ramp in the first place, with bats and meds ready to go.

the only time where i think this would be somewhat useful is in a 2v2, where you may want to biomech and what not. the only time i would wall would be on the 9 spot LT, just out of sheer convenience.
CubEdIn
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Romania5359 Posts
August 19 2006 21:31 GMT
#71
Yes, I use those for 2v2 when I play random, but if you don't mind lifting you can do it in 1v1 too, just to stop z from sneaking in when you leave home base, or try a drop and are scared of 3-hatch-lings, and the likes. Please note that academy on the right with supply on the left will NOT hold off lings, you need to have a supply depot on the right side of the academy in order for this small trick to work.

Also, as a basic rule, small units have it harder to pass between two different types of buildings (supply+acad, supply+barrax, barracks + fact)

This thing was used by boxer or nada, but it was one of my favourite blocks vs toss back in my terran days because of the fact that factory has a lot more HP than supply. Also holds off lings perfectly, so it works in 2v2. Sadly, I haven't tried this on other maps (machine shop sold separately):

[image loading]
Im not a n00b, I just play like one.
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
August 20 2006 00:01 GMT
#72
On August 19 2006 16:53 GrandInquisitor wrote:
and this monumental discovery could be one that would allow you to go down in history with such other brilliant Starcraft strategists such as the author of the Official Prima Strategy Guide and that guy that peddles that ProGamer book that Leg did a chapter for.




BAHAHAHAHA
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
August 20 2006 05:24 GMT
#73
Very cool thread, I'll be sure to tell every one of my Terran friends
Trucy Wright is hot
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-20 09:18:24
August 20 2006 09:17 GMT
#74
On August 20 2006 05:57 Myxomatosis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2006 05:33 superjoppe wrote:
isnt academy and supply the same size? o.O


i think it has more to do with how they are shaped. supplies have more room between them when placed at an angle next to each other i guess. cool find though. But honestly, unless you are doing something wierd TvZ. you don't really need a wall, and by the time you get an academy, you would definitely have enough rines to hold your ramp in the first place, with bats and meds ready to go.

the only time where i think this would be somewhat useful is in a 2v2, where you may want to biomech and what not. the only time i would wall would be on the 9 spot LT, just out of sheer convenience.

Hehe, I remember a cool game between kiwi and, hm.... Some zerg, maybe Liquid`Crystal? Anyway, he used that block Cube showed for 3 o clock and went wraiths and shit It was really fun, don't have it anymore tho.

Nice thread btw
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27148 Posts
August 20 2006 10:01 GMT
#75
great thread. Another one for the recomended thread section.
ModeratorGodfather
CGMU
Profile Joined February 2006
Peru48 Posts
August 20 2006 10:14 GMT
#76
the title of this thread is "placement vs zealots", why do you put pictures of how to stop lings?.stupid.
Myxomatosis
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States2392 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-20 10:49:39
August 20 2006 10:18 GMT
#77
On August 20 2006 19:14 CGMU wrote:
the title of this thread is "placement vs zealots", why do you put pictures of how to stop lings?.stupid.


coming from the guy who claims PvT is imbalanced because of the zealot rush. keep it up!

edit: nvm didn't mean annoying peruvians as a blanket term. just him and darki.

CGMU
Profile Joined February 2006
Peru48 Posts
August 20 2006 10:20 GMT
#78
yes , its imbalanced.but maybe you are toss so you dont care
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27148 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-20 10:30:35
August 20 2006 10:28 GMT
#79
On August 20 2006 19:20 CGMU wrote:
yes , its imbalanced.but maybe you are toss so you dont care


Stop posting in this thread. You are not adding anything to the discussion.
ModeratorGodfather
CGMU
Profile Joined February 2006
Peru48 Posts
August 20 2006 10:32 GMT
#80
On August 20 2006 19:18 Myxomatosis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2006 19:14 CGMU wrote:
the title of this thread is "placement vs zealots", why do you put pictures of how to stop lings?.stupid.


coming from the guy who claims PvT is imbalanced because of the zealot rush. keep it up!

edit: I dont want to make another post, but no, I play terran. You are really retarded though, and with the recent bans of annoying peruvians... I'm kinda hoping the trend continues and you disappear too.


Americans are annoying too, a lot more, you are the perfect example. fucking gay.lol
KoveN-
Profile Joined October 2004
Australia503 Posts
August 20 2006 10:36 GMT
#81
On August 20 2006 19:20 CGMU wrote:
yes , its imbalanced.but maybe you are toss so you dont care


CubEdIn
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Romania5359 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-20 17:53:31
August 20 2006 17:52 GMT
#82
I posted the pics here because someone said that "lings can get in just about anywhere", so I thought I'd share some ling-blocking builds in case you need to keep them out fast. I wasn't going to start a whole new thread just for 5 screenshots.

And just because you don't like a match-up, doesn't mean it's imbalanced. You probably think that TvT is imbalanced as well because you keep getting owned right?

Edit: sorry, didn't see he got banned, didn't want to start a flame war but I get itchy when people say things like that.
Im not a n00b, I just play like one.
Reason
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United Kingdom2770 Posts
August 20 2006 21:14 GMT
#83
i hope it wasn't a temp ban
Speak properly, and in as few words as you can, but always plainly; for the end of speech is not ostentation, but to be understood.
MyLittlePwny
Profile Joined July 2006
Canada171 Posts
August 20 2006 22:25 GMT
#84
acad/depot/rax ownz lingz0rs
When all else fails, Blame the guy who cant speak english.
Alborz
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Canada1551 Posts
August 23 2006 03:58 GMT
#85
Thanks CubEdIn.
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16985 Posts
August 23 2006 08:21 GMT
#86
This is quite a useful thread. Can someone post pictures of formations that work on other maps such as Requiem, etc.? Or perhaps PvZ placements to slow down lings (I know it's kind of off topic here)? I'm honestly too lazy to test them myself
Moderator
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
August 23 2006 12:04 GMT
#87
On August 23 2006 17:21 Empyrean wrote:
This is quite a useful thread. Can someone post pictures of formations that work on other maps such as Requiem, etc.? Or perhaps PvZ placements to slow down lings (I know it's kind of off topic here)? I'm honestly too lazy to test them myself


On any position and on any map, put a supply to the right side of a rax. This should allow a rine through but not a zealot.
CubEdIn
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Romania5359 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-08-24 05:25:37
August 24 2006 05:23 GMT
#88
Also supply on the right side of an academy will stop lings, on any map, provided you have the other side covered

And pvz is easy, since you can't really stop lings, just jam a few buildings in front of the cannons (forge / gate / cybercore) very close to them so that only one ling can pass at a time. In case he attacks just place probes/zealots in where lings are coming through and it should be ok. No point in memorising cannon placements, since fast expo positions are infinetly diverse.
Im not a n00b, I just play like one.
iSkye[89]
Profile Joined August 2006
Korea (South)13 Posts
August 24 2006 06:22 GMT
#89
yeah, this is nice
never thought of this

however, there's a catch.

a good protoss player wouldnt just let the zeolots stick aroudn getting hit by the marines, they'd probably go and target some SCVs or just keep alive long enough for the goons to come
인생은 원래 힘든거지.. = _=;;
ROOTheognis
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States4482 Posts
August 24 2006 06:40 GMT
#90
just take some scvs off and attack with the rines gdit -_-
If you avoid your weakness, it will remain your weakness. www.twitter.com/#!/rootheognis Follow me!
RiSE
Profile Joined April 2004
United States3182 Posts
August 24 2006 08:13 GMT
#91
PvT is balanced.
heavy hand upon the land, feel it's weight inside you
iSkye[89]
Profile Joined August 2006
Korea (South)13 Posts
August 24 2006 09:58 GMT
#92
CGMU, bunker for static defense is sometimes necessary, if you dont feel safe when FE cuz you dont know what the P is doing. He might do bulldog and the one bunker might just be able to save you.

;]
인생은 원래 힘든거지.. = _=;;
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
August 24 2006 12:21 GMT
#93
On August 24 2006 15:22 iSkye[89] wrote:
yeah, this is nice
never thought of this

however, there's a catch.

a good protoss player wouldnt just let the zeolots stick aroudn getting hit by the marines, they'd probably go and target some SCVs or just keep alive long enough for the goons to come


.... What you're meant to do is attack the zealot whenever you can. If the zealot decides to try and attack your rine, you simply run it away and the zealot can't do anything. If the zealot goes back for the scvs again, you just move that 1 scv that is under attack, and while you do that you can attack his zealot with your rine. If he doesn't run his zealot then its almost certainly dead.
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-08 00:32:28
January 08 2008 00:31 GMT
#94
With the recent talks about terran building placements, I decided to revamp and completely redo my guide on building placement vs zealots. Hope it helps!
joohyunee
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
Korea (South)1087 Posts
January 08 2008 00:42 GMT
#95
much much better =)
imBLIND
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2626 Posts
January 08 2008 00:58 GMT
#96
hey, when u place ur depot so that scv pops out closer to mins, if u put ur barracks next do the depot and the cc, will that work?
___xxxx
___xxxx
bbbxxxx
bbbsss
bbbsss

b = barracks
s = depot
x= cc
(goes by matrix)
im deaf
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
January 08 2008 01:07 GMT
#97
On January 08 2008 09:58 imBLIND wrote:
hey, when u place ur depot so that scv pops out closer to mins, if u put ur barracks next do the depot and the cc, will that work?
___xxxx
___xxxx
bbbxxxx
bbbsss
bbbsss

b = barracks
s = depot
x= cc
(goes by matrix)


No it doesn't. The CC stops the rine from going through, even when the rax is 1 matrix down.
Polemarch
Profile Joined August 2005
Canada1564 Posts
January 08 2008 01:56 GMT
#98
Thanks skyglow! That's really helpful and practical.
I BELIEVE IN CAPITAL LETTER PUNISHMENT!!!!!
XsEAJ
Profile Joined October 2007
United States58 Posts
January 08 2008 02:11 GMT
#99
Thanks skyglow, interesting stuff
Equinox_kr
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States7395 Posts
January 08 2008 03:56 GMT
#100
Sexy-tastic.

Receives my fake award for real good stuff
^-^
Fury_InCa
Profile Joined July 2007
United States21 Posts
January 08 2008 03:57 GMT
#101
i wonder, could u press hold in middle of bunker/supply where marine could shoot at zealot, not move, and zealot couldnt reach it?
YinYang69
Profile Joined July 2007
United States255 Posts
January 08 2008 04:12 GMT
#102
This is an awesome thread. I've seen it done in pro vods and the few times I try it my marines spazz out. Thanks for the easy guide and pics.
Keep it simple stupid.
Pressure
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
7326 Posts
January 08 2008 04:21 GMT
#103
i think zealot would reach it if he was in there
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
January 08 2008 04:24 GMT
#104
On January 08 2008 12:57 Fury_InCa wrote:
i wonder, could u press hold in middle of bunker/supply where marine could shoot at zealot, not move, and zealot couldnt reach it?


yes you can but, it's really hard to fit it in there just right. The moment you do and he figures what's going on, he can just move away and attack an scv, forcing you out of your little gap, and you'll have trouble trying to fit back in it again. It is better to just move back and forth between the gap as needed.
Qatol
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States3165 Posts
January 08 2008 04:31 GMT
#105
I tried a few extra positions not in the images skyglow posted using the rax and the CC. Rax above the CC and in 3 of the corners does not work, but putting the rax below and to the right of the CC (right below where the comsat would go) also works.
Also, I was under the impression that you could only put a rine in between the CC and Rax and not have the zealot able to attack your rine. It is possible just using a bunker/supply?
Uff Da
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
January 08 2008 04:43 GMT
#106
On January 08 2008 13:31 Qatol wrote:
I tried a few extra positions not in the images skyglow posted using the rax and the CC. Rax above the CC and in 3 of the corners does not work, but putting the rax below and to the right of the CC (right below where the comsat would go) also works.
Also, I was under the impression that you could only put a rine in between the CC and Rax and not have the zealot able to attack your rine. It is possible just using a bunker/supply?


I didn't do the corners cause I generally like things being like beside each other when the buildings are the same size

Yes it is possible with rax and supply (I think that's what you mean instead of bunker), but for some reason you cannot do it on a map like luna, but it does work on jungle tileset (like python).
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17726 Posts
January 08 2008 06:04 GMT
#107
Do you mean only rax sup doesnt work on luna or all the setups?
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
January 08 2008 06:08 GMT
#108
Only rax and supply, and I really don't feel like testing all the other setups
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
January 08 2008 14:57 GMT
#109
Do you honestly think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations? Would you modify your play style after finding this out? I suppose the idea is that you need fewer Marines before starting your tech, but if you are doing Gundam or FD you have a surplus of minerals which are spent on Marines anyways... I don't see how this changes TvP at all other than some sort of Marineless build (1 Fact 1 Port or some Siege first expand).

I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out.
Moderator
RaGe
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Belgium9947 Posts
January 08 2008 15:14 GMT
#110
On January 08 2008 23:57 Chill wrote:
Do you honestly think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations? Would you modify your play style after finding this out? I suppose the idea is that you need fewer Marines before starting your tech, but if you are doing Gundam or FD you have a surplus of minerals which are spent on Marines anyways... I don't see how this changes TvP at all other than some sort of Marineless build (1 Fact 1 Port or some Siege first expand).

I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out.

Well, Chill, FD Terran includes a 11 (or 12) rax/gas and factory before 2nd depot. Eventhough you'll make ~4 rines to go with your first tank, those 4 rines will be somewhat late. A quick zealot-first build can often delay FD. Eventhough I have to agree some of the setups in this thread are over the top (hey if you're gonna build 2depots and a barracks 3 squares away from your cc you might as well wall), the CC-Rax positioning is pretty damn common and can come in handy
Moderatorsometimes I get intimidated by the size of my right testicle
wifebeater
Profile Joined January 2008
178 Posts
January 08 2008 17:57 GMT
#111
Nice!
Villain Terran~~~~~~~~~~
Tiamat
Profile Joined February 2003
United States498 Posts
January 08 2008 19:32 GMT
#112
What about lings?

lings and marines are the same size correct?
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-08 19:50:46
January 08 2008 19:44 GMT
#113
On January 08 2008 23:57 Chill wrote:
Do you honestly think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations? Would you modify your play style after finding this out? I suppose the idea is that you need fewer Marines before starting your tech, but if you are doing Gundam or FD you have a surplus of minerals which are spent on Marines anyways... I don't see how this changes TvP at all other than some sort of Marineless build (1 Fact 1 Port or some Siege first expand).

I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out.


Erm for example on ICCup I end up finding this setup VERY useful in nearly half of my TvP games seeing as many tosses will send 2 or more zealots before making goons.

Not only do you need less marines before starting tech, you defend so much better with the marines you have against the first couple of zealots. If you have solid micro, your defense is pretty much perfect and you will not suffer any losses (except for maybe a little slowdown to your build order if he attacks the scv building the fact). You don't even need to pull any scvs to defend unless you see there's more zealots coming and you want to hold your ramp.

And anyway, the point isn't to alter your playstyle or build order. It's to do something useful with your intial buildings which helps you immensly vs a zealot rush. There's no concrete reason not to do it, and when you do it, it helps so much.

Also, this isn't some random theorycraft I'm just throwing out there. I've used this in every one of my TvP games, and it's proven itself to be a valuable tool in early game. I don't "think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations", I know it is more than that, at least for me it is, and I'm sure many other terran players.

It was in the old recommended threads section but if you don't want to put it for the people to see in the new recommended threads then fine.
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
January 08 2008 19:49 GMT
#114
On January 09 2008 04:32 Tiamat wrote:
What about lings?

lings and marines are the same size correct?


Lings will go through the gaps that marines can go through. This doesn't mean all the positions that have a cross beside them will stop lings. Some of them have crosses because they let both rines and zealots through (and thus also lings).
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
January 08 2008 20:14 GMT
#115
On January 09 2008 04:44 skyglow1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 08 2008 23:57 Chill wrote:
Do you honestly think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations? Would you modify your play style after finding this out? I suppose the idea is that you need fewer Marines before starting your tech, but if you are doing Gundam or FD you have a surplus of minerals which are spent on Marines anyways... I don't see how this changes TvP at all other than some sort of Marineless build (1 Fact 1 Port or some Siege first expand).

I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out.


Erm for example on ICCup I end up finding this setup VERY useful in nearly half of my TvP games seeing as many tosses will send 2 or more zealots before making goons.

Not only do you need less marines before starting tech, you defend so much better with the marines you have against the first couple of zealots. If you have solid micro, your defense is pretty much perfect and you will not suffer any losses (except for maybe a little slowdown to your build order if he attacks the scv building the fact). You don't even need to pull any scvs to defend unless you see there's more zealots coming and you want to hold your ramp.

And anyway, the point isn't to alter your playstyle or build order. It's to do something useful with your intial buildings which helps you immensly vs a zealot rush. There's no concrete reason not to do it, and when you do it, it helps so much.

Also, this isn't some random theorycraft I'm just throwing out there. I've used this in every one of my TvP games, and it's proven itself to be a valuable tool in early game. I don't "think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations", I know it is more than that, at least for me it is, and I'm sure many other terran players.

It was in the old recommended threads section but if you don't want to put it for the people to see in the new recommended threads then fine.


What's wrong with walling? I'm trying to get to the theory of why you would ever do this. What advantages does this afford that a single Marine and a wall don't? It seems overcomplicated - you can't leave your Marine on hold position because of it's low range, so you're going to end up using a ton of micro anyways.
Moderator
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-08 20:42:10
January 08 2008 20:32 GMT
#116
On January 09 2008 05:14 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2008 04:44 skyglow1 wrote:
On January 08 2008 23:57 Chill wrote:
Do you honestly think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations? Would you modify your play style after finding this out? I suppose the idea is that you need fewer Marines before starting your tech, but if you are doing Gundam or FD you have a surplus of minerals which are spent on Marines anyways... I don't see how this changes TvP at all other than some sort of Marineless build (1 Fact 1 Port or some Siege first expand).

I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out.


Erm for example on ICCup I end up finding this setup VERY useful in nearly half of my TvP games seeing as many tosses will send 2 or more zealots before making goons.

Not only do you need less marines before starting tech, you defend so much better with the marines you have against the first couple of zealots. If you have solid micro, your defense is pretty much perfect and you will not suffer any losses (except for maybe a little slowdown to your build order if he attacks the scv building the fact). You don't even need to pull any scvs to defend unless you see there's more zealots coming and you want to hold your ramp.

And anyway, the point isn't to alter your playstyle or build order. It's to do something useful with your intial buildings which helps you immensly vs a zealot rush. There's no concrete reason not to do it, and when you do it, it helps so much.

Also, this isn't some random theorycraft I'm just throwing out there. I've used this in every one of my TvP games, and it's proven itself to be a valuable tool in early game. I don't "think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations", I know it is more than that, at least for me it is, and I'm sure many other terran players.

It was in the old recommended threads section but if you don't want to put it for the people to see in the new recommended threads then fine.


What's wrong with walling? I'm trying to get to the theory of why you would ever do this. What advantages does this afford that a single Marine and a wall don't? It seems overcomplicated - you can't leave your Marine on hold position because of it's low range, so you're going to end up using a ton of micro anyways.


The buildings are much closer to your scvs than if you built a wall, speeding up your build. You also won't have any annoyances with a toss who tries to mess with your wall by sitting around where the last supply is meant to go or whatever. You'll also waste less mining time if you need to fend off the probe thats harassing your building scv.

If you compare doing this setup to just normal placements of buildings (not wall), then with the normal placement you'll need to be pulling scvs and microing them too. With thsi setup you can just micro the rines and that will pretty much be enough.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
January 08 2008 20:55 GMT
#117
I still feel the advantages are too few. Instead of running the Marine like normal, you're going to be... running the Marine out of his hole and then retreating back. Meanwhile he has free reign of targetting SCVs, especially the Factory SCV. If you further alter your build to place the Factory quite close to your Comman Center, it's now in a non-ideal position in terms of a late-game Factory setup, as shown in your screen shots. Obviously you could lift it and float it to a better spot, but if you do that you've just forfeited the small timing advantage that you sought to gain from this entire thing to start with.

Regardless I put it in the recommended threads to let people decide for themselves. Knowing which setups are Zealot-proof is necessary for making walls on the fly anyways.
Moderator
NoDDiE
Profile Joined November 2006
Poland170 Posts
January 08 2008 21:16 GMT
#118
lol chill. skyglow is absolutelly right
not all maps let u make wall , and only a few are viable for 1 depo 1 rax wall - so "make wall" isn't something always available

about running with marine - the advantage is HUGE compared with price (nothing?). you need to build depo so it doesn't matter where it is - and 1 depo near cc won't really mess ur base (if its rax just lift off) and you gain ability to return fire with rine. without depo//rax help in 1v1 marine vs zeal toss is "the boss" he chooses what to do - chase rine , attack scv or retreat. and usually t doesn't have the option to strike back (unless p goes for scv's). and with this t can force p to attack scv's or escape (or zeal will die after time if he keeps going after marine which strikes back)so T is "the boss" now.
it may sound as minor issue , but in the beggining of tvp 1 zealot can REALLY annoy t and with this "trick" you gain psychological advantage too XD (forcing 1 zeal to retreat with just 1 rine without scv help is priceless).

also i have question regarding the first situation with cc and depo - does it have to be in exact positon , or can it be 1 block (up down), and are there any other options involing cc+building?

and btw good post
One for the money , two for the show , straight to hell is where i go
naventus
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States1337 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-08 21:41:24
January 08 2008 21:41 GMT
#119
Seems to me that any P intent on sending zeals to your base early will be harassing a wall aggressively (pyloning etc).

The problem with this though is that with just a bit of lag, it's really difficult - and it's very tricky if too many zeals get in your base (maybe then throw down a bunker?).

Note though that I use this almost exclusively and rarely wall.
hmm.
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
January 08 2008 22:05 GMT
#120
On January 09 2008 05:55 Chill wrote:
I still feel the advantages are too few. Instead of running the Marine like normal, you're going to be... running the Marine out of his hole and then retreating back. Meanwhile he has free reign of targetting SCVs, especially the Factory SCV. If you further alter your build to place the Factory quite close to your Comman Center, it's now in a non-ideal position in terms of a late-game Factory setup, as shown in your screen shots. Obviously you could lift it and float it to a better spot, but if you do that you've just forfeited the small timing advantage that you sought to gain from this entire thing to start with.

Regardless I put it in the recommended threads to let people decide for themselves. Knowing which setups are Zealot-proof is necessary for making walls on the fly anyways.


Well the only thing you'll have to really actively micro is the marine, compared to having to pull scvs if you didn't do the setup, and this is advantageous.

He doesn't ahve free reign on the factory scv. If he tries to attack it, you attack his zealot. The moment he goes for your zealot, you move towards the gap. If he goes back for the scv again, you can reactly quickly adn resume shooting at him. If your factory is scv is about to die, you can replace it very quickly since the factory is close.

The first factory I'll admit is in a somewhat awkward position. However, that doesn't mean you need to place the next factories beside it and end up with a poor placement. Just place your next few factories in the ideal spot. 1 factory in a strange spot isn't going to affect you much, if at all. And no you'd never lift because that's just not a smart thing to do.
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-01-08 22:10:42
January 08 2008 22:09 GMT
#121
On January 09 2008 06:16 NoDDiE wrote:
also i have question regarding the first situation with cc and depo - does it have to be in exact positon , or can it be 1 block (up down), and are there any other options involing cc+building?


Dunno. I just like how it looks when it's in the exact position. I know for a fact the rax+supply combinations can be up or down, but don't know about the CC.

On January 09 2008 06:41 naventus wrote:
Seems to me that any P intent on sending zeals to your base early will be harassing a wall aggressively (pyloning etc).

The problem with this though is that with just a bit of lag, it's really difficult - and it's very tricky if too many zeals get in your base (maybe then throw down a bunker?).

Note though that I use this almost exclusively and rarely wall.


Exactly. If you wall you will run into annoyances as well. This setup has way less annoying stuff that toss can do against it compared to when you wall.

Yeah once he gets to 2 or more zeal, and he's figured out what's going on, he can use probe + zealots to trap your marines and give you a hard time. However, you should be able to damage the first zealot enough so he has to run down your ramp, and then you should be able to hold your ramp with your next marines + a few scv.
LumberJack
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3355 Posts
January 09 2008 04:05 GMT
#122
Chill, if you actually 'played' terran then you'd know how useful it is, or annoying if you played protoss.
Man fears the darkness, and so he scrapes away at the edges of it with fire.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
January 09 2008 06:00 GMT
#123
This is so useful. Thanx.
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5281 Posts
January 09 2008 12:34 GMT
#124
Wow, like 2 weeks ago i did a research on this subject also, because I tought that you didnt explore all the options. I have a good bunch of screenshots which i'll post here and you can include it in your post if you like them. I think you'll find some of them interesting.
I was going to create a thread, but I just couldnt get myself to start typing. I covered all possibilities of making CC, Barax and supply next to each other. Some block better than the others, some are useful, some suck. What I really focused on is exploiting the matrix, so keep an eye on which parts of the buildings overlap before going to do it yourself. After I did this research, went to play some games, it took me some time to actually use the things I learned, because I kept doing it wrong. Anyway, have a look:
  • CC+Baracks combos:
    + Show Spoiler +

    1. Baracks left, CC right:
    [image loading]


    2. Baracks up, CC down:
    [image loading]


    3. Baracks right, CC left:
    [image loading]


    4. Baracks down, CC up:
    [image loading]




  • Barracks + Supply combos
    + Show Spoiler +

    1. Supply left&right of the baracks:
    [image loading]


    2. Supply up&down of the barracks:
    [image loading]



  • CC + supply combos:
    No matter how you put them next to each other, not a marine nor a zealot can go in between.
    (Had a picture of it, but apparently I dont have it anymore. This one shouldnt be too hard to understand )



Practical use:
I made all starting positions for the RLT and RHIII so that you get the idea of how to use this in a real game.

  • Reverse Temple:
    + Show Spoiler +

    1. 12 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    2. 6 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    3. 8 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    4. (Once again, it seems that the 2 o'clock position of RLT has disappeared from my hard drive so you'll just have to do this as a homework ^ ^)

  • Rush Hour III:
    + Show Spoiler +

    1. 3 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    2. 7 o'clock position:
    [image loading]


    3. 11 o'clock position:
    [image loading]





There, hope it helps! cheers!
skyglow1
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
New Zealand3962 Posts
January 09 2008 21:48 GMT
#125
Wow that's way better than what I did XD Thanks for that. I've incorporated it into the OP and put a little summary after looking both our research.
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