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Resonate
United Kingdom8402 Posts
Are there any practical ways in mid-game (so not carriers/arbs) to allow toss to choose when to fight? cos basically terran gets to choose every time, as their defence is so strong. It just sucks to see terran controlling the game unchallanged, when toss basically has to suck it up and wait until terran is ready, even with a significant unit advantage. | ||
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azndng
United States344 Posts
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Resonate
United Kingdom8402 Posts
On April 15 2005 08:42 azndng wrote: hold ramp early and reaver/dt harrass then expo =) should be 10 minute game I'm talking about mid-game. Say you did that and he defended it then expanded with good turret cover... Now what? | ||
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NeverTheEndlessWiz
Singapore827 Posts
Attempt to storm drop followup Force terran to stay at home Expand at islands | ||
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
I think you may like to play with a lot of speed shuttles. You can not only perform fairly large drops on the terran main, but you can also perform a lot of tasks quickly (one shuttle storm drops, one is ready to drop zeals on tanks ahead of the push, one takes probe to island) While you're doing all this, get arbiter with recall/stasis or carriers. There's your initiative. I don't think there's much of a way to get to choose the time of the all-out ground fight until you have carrier, if the terran doesn't want to. | ||
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k3fka
Argentina1267 Posts
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ronhaak
Canada98 Posts
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Ghin
United States2391 Posts
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ronhaak
Canada98 Posts
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FroZZoR
China925 Posts
then they'll have to come out | ||
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
You got the significant unit advantage, and that's why you tech to arbiters or carriers, or storm or whatever..because he can't challenge your army for another 5 minutes Effective storm drops might be able to slow him down until you've got 20 gates and can afford to just throw constant units at him until you finally get his min only, and he concedes maybe 6 speed shuttles or something, but if he's mass defensing it, probably won't work either | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
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rT)Arch
Uruguay22 Posts
On April 15 2005 10:12 FroZZoR wrote: take more bases then they'll have to come out agreed, if u have sufficient unit advantage take more bases, this should force him to move out or face a slow death once u get them up and running | ||
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pfff
Belgium1352 Posts
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SainT
Chile1067 Posts
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
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eternalbliss
United States1035 Posts
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starofNC
United States1340 Posts
I think dk's are getting more and more essential in pvt as a way of making the terran conservative with his scanning as u try and get that 4th expansion min/gas up if you hadn't been very successful with an extra early expand, or in your side-strat to hurt the eco of the teran, then your 3rd base invariably gets raped by vultures as your zeal shuttle(s) die to the turrets around middle tanks T-T terrans can really abuse this especially with positions favoring them on lotem my main problem with pvt seems to always come around that ~13 minute mark when its like 6gates vs 5 or 6factory or.. it also seems like on nostal more n more opponents ive played like to spend less on workers and u die before your 3rd base even finished warping T_T yea iono its pretty bad when I see a starport I actually let out a sigh of relief, so much easier to deal with than getting a 3rd gas/min up and running after he 1fac cc's I am the shitty at pvt | ||
Empyrean
17039 Posts
On April 15 2005 21:50 starofNC wrote: lol BigBalls more like expanding one too many times will lose you the game . . . I am the shitty at pvt Yeah way to be a hypocrite. BigBalls is better at PvT than you'll ever be  | ||
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
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starofNC
United States1340 Posts
oh, and I did read his post MaTRiX[SiN], i dont think the terran has to be very good to beat mass expos | ||
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RedMeat
United Kingdom490 Posts
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
Note the strafe v beast game @wcg. beast was playing very well and strafe overexpanded early and beast didnt attack in time. think of how many games there is a 5-10 minute lull and you could have expanded but didnt. sure _very_ good terrans will probably eat it alive, but if hes having trouble choosing when to attack this implies that he feels he has enough army to kill his opponent yet he just sits there idly waiting for the terran to attack. Thus, I think it would be in his best interest to overexpand a slight amount, not only to force the terran out, but also because he seems like he could afford it. When i say expand one too many times, i mean youre sitting there with 2 bases, your 2nd natural is building, you have 5-7 gates pumping, go take another main. its only 400 minerals, which is just 3 more units, its not like youre really losing out that much, but the possible gain is huge. | ||
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rpf289
United States3524 Posts
On April 15 2005 08:33 Resonate wrote: What I do is put observers everywhere on the map, especially crucial areas and have others patrol expansions. I have my army in a line across the middle of the map, and when I see the Terran try to move out, I will attack across that whole front, and do my best to micro everything. Once his setup attempt has been defeated or the Terran has retreated, I retreat as well, and do it again when they try to set up again. Remember to attack the Terran's army while in transit, as they are the weakest then. You should probably have an almost equal number of zealots and goons, with more goons. Generally, you should try not to lose goons in droves, and if you do, that means you should have pulled back earlier. Attack repeatedly until your zealots are dead, then retreat and do it all over again. In summary, be an asshole and be annoying, and don't let the Terran set up. Try to storm drop his natural or main if you can while he wants to push out so his economy is crippled slightly, and therefore won't be able to keep up unit production. Put some DT's on your cliffs, and maybe an HT. That way you can commit most of your ground army to attacking, not running around to defend expansions.In PvT at high level, unless protoss wins it early, there tends to be a large build up at the terran natural of tanks and vultures while terran harrasses. Then, when he's ready, terran just unseiges and goes out. Are there any practical ways in mid-game (so not carriers/arbs) to allow toss to choose when to fight? cos basically terran gets to choose every time, as their defence is so strong. It just sucks to see terran controlling the game unchallanged, when toss basically has to suck it up and wait until terran is ready, even with a significant unit advantage. I just realized I'm rambling. Sorry. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2706 Posts
He then slowpushes out to take his min only. I feel like I can't do anything in this situation. I've allready secured my nat rigth before or just after he took his. I migth even have harassed it a bit depending on his tank placement. But my army is lacking and I desperatly need to get a third base running, which is going to be one of the other mains. (Probably 9 in this example.) So I can't stop the slowpush to the nat and I need to cover my main/nat and my expo, and I also need to keep enough forces to stop the terran from doing something. I just feel I don't have enough troops in this part of the game. Either a shitload of vults raid expo or nat/main because I don't have enough shit there to stop them (2-3 cannons and 1-2 goons doesn't help that much) or I have left to little in the middle and he just unsieges his shit and moves it to my doorstep without me being able to put up any resistance before he has turned the fast push into a slowpush once again. I can counter his min only but it really doesn't gain me that much since his newly produced units and mines/turrets will take out a pretty big chunck of what I have out there and the next wave of produced units will invaribly rape my expo while he takes another himself. I just get pissed of when playing good terrans I guess. It's so frustrating playing a mu when you have to rely on your opponents mistakes as much as playing good. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
Heh, no coincidence that the terran is doing 1fact expo. There is always the option to try and take this out early with drops or some kind of elevator strategy. But, its 12/6 so i suppose just macroing hard is the best option. If he decides to take his min only fast - after 2to4 facts and sets up well, you really cant do anything. Just macro hard and wait for him to make a move. If he starts to slow push towards you and positions are 12/6 youll be safe for some time. Once he reachs your doorstep he will have to pack them up front to be able to hold you or spread them out. If he packs them up front mostly, flank. If he spreads them out, just attack every once in awhile to clear out some space and flank. I dunno why you took the 3main instead of your 2nd nat. That might make things harder. If you are not able to take an expanson at 3main, nat or 2nd nat take an island. If he can just unsiege and move around at will, youve done something wrong already. Probably not kept up in mass. If you dont keep up in macro well enough, your basically screwed... | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2706 Posts
That was probably my biggest problem, because having to cover to different places is fucking hard at that part of the game. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
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rpf289
United States3524 Posts
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starofNC
United States1340 Posts
BigBalls forgive my ignorance but are you a proponent of the +1 armor upgrade to stall the vulture attacks? or.. In a map such as LT I don't see it being quite reasonable to defend 1 (possibly) finished nexus and 1 other warping almost finished nexus with pylon+cannon or 2 cannon while still macroing and keeping up with units.. Cuddlykitten taking the other main was probably a good move on ur part I think some things you can do if you surely dont see a starport anywhere with observers is to smartly place pylon+forge+maybe 1 cannon directly along a line beneath 9oclock ramp.. this will afford u some protection during your efforts to take your mineral only @ 6 oclock (building placement...i.e, anything to postpone the vultures from getting up there in other words) you will need gateways at the 6 base sooner than later however, but pershaps this is something you could do to buy yourself some time in 6v12 or even 6v3 terrans in my experience tend to get tempted more if you take a 3rd base that is nearer as opposed to farther away from them.. they get cocky as far as moving their units out and doing their push or whatever (hey, maybe this is what you want for them to do vs you anyway, but yea thats definately by experience) they always get the bright idea to vult attacks when the base is far away "..or I have left to little in the middle and he just unsieges his shit and moves it to my doorstep without me being able to put up any resistance." this shouldn't really ever have to be the case.. you are either overexpanding or.. yea you are probably overexpanding and on a side note to Resonate, I think people sometimes are overly excited to expand when they see the terran taken his natural.. speed shuttle or just solid shuttle play as Legionnaire recently showed on Nostalgia vs Androide.. is a very good investment to make instead of dropping a 4th nexus somehwere on the map. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Wait for them to come out and flank them hard >=) Otherwise, harass. | ||
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
You dont need cannons asap. Let's say you are 6, your opponent is 12. He is building up, maybe harassing a little but not really coming out and there isnt much you can do besides macro/defend. Bring 3 goons over to the 9:00 ramp and expand there. You should have good observer spread so if he tries an attack there OR he starts bringing his forces forward, you can not only move yours up to slow his attacks, but also you can move over to defend either way. The problem comes in when the terran is very good and starts pushing forward, forcing you to defend, THEN brings vults over to raid the expansion, in which case you need cannons to defend. But, if the terran is not very very solid with good multitasking, he wont be able to pressure/harass/macro at a high level and make you worry about expanding once too many times. | ||
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RiSE
United States3182 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
but managing your money properly so that you are always ready to attack for example: many protosses keep an observer over the terran factories. When the terran begins to build up a shitload of factories, the protoss stops expanding and makes a bunch of gateways and starts massing units. Honestly, "how can i choose when to attack" should not be a big question. Figuring out how to have enough to destroy a terran push AT ANY TIMe is what makes a good protoss. just my opinion n' all  | ||
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Sorrow_eyes
United States1007 Posts
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
he just spent several hundred on turrets, maybe wasted some mines, and definitely wasted some time if you dont attack. Just expo. Expoing is really all there is to pvt... | ||
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volair
United States20 Posts
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Vendetta[eV]
United States93 Posts
All of the above is great, but your greatest victory is putting the huge amount of doubt in his head that he can still win if you succeed. Don't forget to throw up another Nexus while all this takes place.  Hope this helps. | ||
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SaNteria
Canada487 Posts
Though there is no shame in taking a higher tech... unless you're so stubborn that you insist on keeping the fight on the ground ; ) | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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labcoated
Canada392 Posts
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DuSkie
Czech Republic451 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
On May 31 2005 10:14 labcoated wrote: do a fake expand early midgame, like build the nexus but stop probes and rape him when he tries to push This is generally what happens in PvT - Terran 1fac ccs or even 2 fac vultures -> expand Protoss double expands, stops probes once his 3rd expo is up, starts massing gates Terran slow/fast pushes out (depending on if he cuts scvs for the 5th/6th fac), either going for the throat (the min only), or map control (his mineral only). What I don't understand is that, Terran expos in almost all situations come later than the Protoss - the Protoss generally takes the natural and even the min only much quicker than the Terran, but it seems that slow push negates this effect? For example, take Nada's style - he plays 2 fac vult - > cc - > starport + academy + mass turrets - > 2 dropship 12 vult harass -> min only -> mass tank. Basically, since he turtles so much with the turrets (I assume he does this becuase he doesn't wnat ot lose to some newb strat and knows his harass will more than make up for his mass purchasing of turrets) and goes Starport, the Protoss is more than entitled to a 3rd base (which gets raped by the harass but I digress) I am a big fan of the quick (whirlwind) push and as such it is essential to be the "leader" in the reaping of the expos otherwise I will get raped in the "push" - any comments about the economics of this (in that Factories and their prospective units as a whole cost much more than Gates) would be good. Lastly, with regards to the +1 weaps or armor, I am a strong believer in only going 1 forge the entire game (and I don't even believe in carrier, so basically ground troops the whole time). Why only 1 forge? Base damage of Terran units are so high that Armor only helps with the Vulture/Probe situation - Attack however comes in handy once +2 kicks in with Zealots slicing mines in one hit. Further, there are many other upgrades that are useful than the 2nd forge - dual obs upgrades, Templar Archives and consequently Arbiter which I feel are all more useful than teh 2nd forge. Even if you want to protect probes, instead of building the 2nd forge + upgrade, you can afford 2 cannons instead. If you go only 1 forge and choose to go armor, then it is your perogative, but I am strongly against dual forge (in that even speed shuttle/air weapons are better upgrades). | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Having 3-3-3 units IS very strong Anyways, I know some people who do archon + carrier (korean guy I know) with fast shield up which IS good :O Obviously you'd be going mostly zealots with this Not sure exactly what he used but it was cool, just should mention it Btw, I almost always use just 1 forge as well, at least until 3-0 then if I'm rich I might add 2 more for armor and shield | ||
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Regentropfen
Germany277 Posts
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iNsaNe-
Finland5201 Posts
On May 31 2005 16:04 Regentropfen wrote: so u dont like researching different ups in 1 forge or why u build 2 more forges for a total of 3 while u can only do 2 upgrades? :-P What do you mean? Weapons, Sheilds and Plasma Sheilds, that's three right? | ||
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Holorin
France227 Posts
then if you add 2 forges you ll be able to use only two of them right ? but FA was probably making it for fun as dedicated forge 1-weapon; 1-armor; 1-shield shields are a strange upgrade but for exemple it helps your canons a lot versus zerglings [what ? no zerglings in pvt ? oh sorry about that ] | ||
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pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
On April 20 2005 21:06 Day[9] wrote: honestly its not so much about choosing when to attack but managing your money properly so that you are always ready to attack for example: many protosses keep an observer over the terran factories. When the terran begins to build up a shitload of factories, the protoss stops expanding and makes a bunch of gateways and starts massing units. Honestly, "how can i choose when to attack" should not be a big question. Figuring out how to have enough to destroy a terran push AT ANY TIMe is what makes a good protoss. just my opinion n' all This is a VERY good point. | ||
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LastWish
2015 Posts
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GaR
United States48 Posts
Close Thread. | ||
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RaGe
Belgium9949 Posts
On June 08 2005 11:39 GaR wrote: Keep expanding, the Terran will come out or face a slow death. Close Thread. this is a recommended thread and thus needs to stay open | ||
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Antifate
United States415 Posts
But you might not want to listen to me, I suck. | ||
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nurOs-
United Kingdom15 Posts
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Empyrean
17039 Posts
On June 08 2005 13:26 Antifate wrote: I'm pretty sure you can go with Reaver Drop. Even if he does have turrets he's probably not gonna have them all around the outside of his base. Even then he'll probably just have one alone and i think a speed shuttle can make it across 1 turret if it doesn't stop. Try to get some zeals in the drop. One turret is = to 1 vulture so if he has turrets he doesn't have a lot of money. Try and apply constant pressure and make them worry about their safety more than your destruction. But you might not want to listen to me, I suck. The Terran will sense something is not right by your goon count, and either assume Reavers or Dark Templar. Or, if you hide, he'll see from your Pylon count that you've hidden something. Besides, even if you get a Shuttle in, it's going to die before it gets out, so you've stranded a Reaver. Terran can just check on the minimap whenever an orange blip comes in and run SCVs prematurely or just put tanks there. | ||
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Empyrean
17039 Posts
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