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In PvT at high level, unless protoss wins it early, there tends to be a large build up at the terran natural of tanks and vultures while terran harrasses. Then, when he's ready, terran just unseiges and goes out.
Are there any practical ways in mid-game (so not carriers/arbs) to allow toss to choose when to fight? cos basically terran gets to choose every time, as their defence is so strong.
It just sucks to see terran controlling the game unchallanged, when toss basically has to suck it up and wait until terran is ready, even with a significant unit advantage.
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hold ramp early and reaver/dt harrass then expo =) should be 10 minute game
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On April 15 2005 08:42 azndng wrote: hold ramp early and reaver/dt harrass then expo =) should be 10 minute game
I'm talking about mid-game. Say you did that and he defended it then expanded with good turret cover... Now what?
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Open with reaver Attempt to storm drop followup Force terran to stay at home Expand at islands
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You shouldn't attack head on I think you may like to play with a lot of speed shuttles. You can not only perform fairly large drops on the terran main, but you can also perform a lot of tasks quickly (one shuttle storm drops, one is ready to drop zeals on tanks ahead of the push, one takes probe to island)
While you're doing all this, get arbiter with recall/stasis or carriers. There's your initiative. I don't think there's much of a way to get to choose the time of the all-out ground fight until you have carrier, if the terran doesn't want to.
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p vs t is basically slowing down terran , so u can get higher tech units , unless ur opponent is under ur level u will need high tech.
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I mostly let them turtle, after i have my first 4-5goons and 1obs, I wait about 30seconds for possible vulture rush, stop it, and then expand. If they are expanding, then I take another expansion (usually with gas) and immediatly get my tech going. Exploit the fact that they are gonna sit there, so that when it comes time for them to push, you are very much ahead of them. If you really wanna stop pushes, mix in templar. Not only with units, but have 2 temps in a shuttle with 2 dt's or zeals. once he pushes on you and you attack him (from more than 1 angle) your speed shuttles can drop templar into the middle of the battle, and get off 3-4 quick storms to destroy any attempts at cluster seiging. PJ does this very well, so get a bunch of his replays and watch
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So basically no, there is no way. You have to wait for the Terran to come out.
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I dont really see that as a downside, if they want to turtle, and not move out...then take your nat, another main, and the islands....and they'll be the ones paying for it.
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take more bases then they'll have to come out
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you pretty much answered your own question..you can't attack him when he's sieged into his base, so you can only try to attack when he has decided to move out
You got the significant unit advantage, and that's why you tech to arbiters or carriers, or storm or whatever..because he can't challenge your army for another 5 minutes
Effective storm drops might be able to slow him down until you've got 20 gates and can afford to just throw constant units at him until you finally get his min only, and he concedes
maybe 6 speed shuttles or something, but if he's mass defensing it, probably won't work either
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Baltimore, USA22225 Posts
Pretty muchly what everyone else said... having him turtle while you wait outside is not a bad thing, it's pretty much exactly what you want him to do. If you are looking to end the game sooner though, as suggested, the only thing I can think of that'll end it in mid-game in a timely manner would be massive shuttle drops in his main, or on his defensive units. I know as T I've been caught off guard a few times, expecting the usual; Toss will stay outside my base while I can work my econ a bit and skimp on the units.
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On April 15 2005 10:12 FroZZoR wrote: take more bases then they'll have to come out
agreed, if u have sufficient unit advantage take more bases, this should force him to move out or face a slow death once u get them up and running
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force the terran to come out by outexpanding him.
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but what if T gets high upgrades and I don't, should I attack him... or just make units until i get more upg?
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Unless youre playing a very good terran, expanding one too many times will most likely win you the game. It will either force him out of his base or allow you to expand all over and do whatever you want
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Im the worst Terran ever, and I can rareley win TvP...... sad lol
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lol BigBalls more like expanding one too many times will lose you the game
I think dk's are getting more and more essential in pvt as a way of making the terran conservative with his scanning as u try and get that 4th expansion min/gas up
if you hadn't been very successful with an extra early expand, or in your side-strat to hurt the eco of the teran, then your 3rd base invariably gets raped by vultures as your zeal shuttle(s) die to the turrets around middle tanks T-T terrans can really abuse this especially with positions favoring them on lotem
my main problem with pvt seems to always come around that ~13 minute mark when its like 6gates vs 5 or 6factory
or.. it also seems like on nostal more n more opponents ive played like to spend less on workers and u die before your 3rd base even finished warping T_T
yea iono its pretty bad when I see a starport I actually let out a sigh of relief, so much easier to deal with than getting a 3rd gas/min up and running after he 1fac cc's
I am the shitty at pvt
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16927 Posts
On April 15 2005 21:50 starofNC wrote: lol BigBalls more like expanding one too many times will lose you the game . . . I am the shitty at pvt
Yeah way to be a hypocrite. BigBalls is better at PvT than you'll ever be
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
notice that he said Unless youre playing a very good terran
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Empyrean thanks
oh, and I did read his post MaTRiX[SiN], i dont think the terran has to be very good to beat mass expos
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Youre wrong
Note the strafe v beast game @wcg. beast was playing very well and strafe overexpanded early and beast didnt attack in time. think of how many games there is a 5-10 minute lull and you could have expanded but didnt. sure _very_ good terrans will probably eat it alive, but if hes having trouble choosing when to attack this implies that he feels he has enough army to kill his opponent yet he just sits there idly waiting for the terran to attack. Thus, I think it would be in his best interest to overexpand a slight amount, not only to force the terran out, but also because he seems like he could afford it.
When i say expand one too many times, i mean youre sitting there with 2 bases, your 2nd natural is building, you have 5-7 gates pumping, go take another main. its only 400 minerals, which is just 3 more units, its not like youre really losing out that much, but the possible gain is huge.
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On April 15 2005 08:33 Resonate wrote: In PvT at high level, unless protoss wins it early, there tends to be a large build up at the terran natural of tanks and vultures while terran harrasses. Then, when he's ready, terran just unseiges and goes out.
Are there any practical ways in mid-game (so not carriers/arbs) to allow toss to choose when to fight? cos basically terran gets to choose every time, as their defence is so strong.
It just sucks to see terran controlling the game unchallanged, when toss basically has to suck it up and wait until terran is ready, even with a significant unit advantage. What I do is put observers everywhere on the map, especially crucial areas and have others patrol expansions. I have my army in a line across the middle of the map, and when I see the Terran try to move out, I will attack across that whole front, and do my best to micro everything. Once his setup attempt has been defeated or the Terran has retreated, I retreat as well, and do it again when they try to set up again. Remember to attack the Terran's army while in transit, as they are the weakest then. You should probably have an almost equal number of zealots and goons, with more goons. Generally, you should try not to lose goons in droves, and if you do, that means you should have pulled back earlier. Attack repeatedly until your zealots are dead, then retreat and do it all over again. In summary, be an asshole and be annoying, and don't let the Terran set up. Try to storm drop his natural or main if you can while he wants to push out so his economy is crippled slightly, and therefore won't be able to keep up unit production. Put some DT's on your cliffs, and maybe an HT. That way you can commit most of your ground army to attacking, not running around to defend expansions.
I just realized I'm rambling. Sorry.
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My main problem with PvT is that if the terran get's a decent postion (I don't know why it is like this but PvT on Lotem is twice as hard as on any other map.) I almost allways get fucked around the time my 3 base goes up. (Another main.) Classical example: T got 12, I got 6. T just fast expoes to nat asap. Then starts slowpushing as well as putting two tanks and a good placed turret/s along with his barracks at his nat. (No storm dropping.) He then slowpushes out to take his min only. I feel like I can't do anything in this situation. I've allready secured my nat rigth before or just after he took his. I migth even have harassed it a bit depending on his tank placement. But my army is lacking and I desperatly need to get a third base running, which is going to be one of the other mains. (Probably 9 in this example.) So I can't stop the slowpush to the nat and I need to cover my main/nat and my expo, and I also need to keep enough forces to stop the terran from doing something. I just feel I don't have enough troops in this part of the game. Either a shitload of vults raid expo or nat/main because I don't have enough shit there to stop them (2-3 cannons and 1-2 goons doesn't help that much) or I have left to little in the middle and he just unsieges his shit and moves it to my doorstep without me being able to put up any resistance before he has turned the fast push into a slowpush once again. I can counter his min only but it really doesn't gain me that much since his newly produced units and mines/turrets will take out a pretty big chunck of what I have out there and the next wave of produced units will invaribly rape my expo while he takes another himself.
I just get pissed of when playing good terrans I guess. It's so frustrating playing a mu when you have to rely on your opponents mistakes as much as playing good.
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nah its not twice as hard but def harder then nostalgia. But i probably like temple better because it can be played out many ways easier.
Heh, no coincidence that the terran is doing 1fact expo. There is always the option to try and take this out early with drops or some kind of elevator strategy. But, its 12/6 so i suppose just macroing hard is the best option. If he decides to take his min only fast - after 2to4 facts and sets up well, you really cant do anything. Just macro hard and wait for him to make a move.
If he starts to slow push towards you and positions are 12/6 youll be safe for some time. Once he reachs your doorstep he will have to pack them up front to be able to hold you or spread them out. If he packs them up front mostly, flank. If he spreads them out, just attack every once in awhile to clear out some space and flank. I dunno why you took the 3main instead of your 2nd nat. That might make things harder. If you are not able to take an expanson at 3main, nat or 2nd nat take an island.
If he can just unsiege and move around at will, youve done something wrong already. Probably not kept up in mass. If you dont keep up in macro well enough, your basically screwed...
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So take nat instead of other main?
That was probably my biggest problem, because having to cover to different places is fucking hard at that part of the game.
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If your at 12 i would def take the 2nd nat. At 6 its a harder call to make. I think its more likely he will try to attack with a load of vults if expo to 9 main, though. Mabey make a pylon/cannon wall at the top of the ramp or something...
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When I'm at 12, I take my nat, then my 2nd nat. At 3, I take my nat, then either the 12 main or 12 nat. At 6, I usually lose. In my attempt to not lose, I take my nat, the the 4 island. At 9, I take my nat, then either the 11 island, or 6 main.
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BigBalls I agree with your post insofar as that you are saying you only directed him as such because he commented that he reaches a point where he is sitting with his minerals and does not know what to do.. I suppose in my reading of your post, the combination of 'one', plus 'too many' threw me a bit off,
BigBalls forgive my ignorance but are you a proponent of the +1 armor upgrade to stall the vulture attacks? or.. In a map such as LT I don't see it being quite reasonable to defend 1 (possibly) finished nexus and 1 other warping almost finished nexus with pylon+cannon or 2 cannon while still macroing and keeping up with units..
Cuddlykitten taking the other main was probably a good move on ur part I think
some things you can do if you surely dont see a starport anywhere with observers is to smartly place pylon+forge+maybe 1 cannon directly along a line beneath 9oclock ramp.. this will afford u some protection during your efforts to take your mineral only @ 6 oclock (building placement...i.e, anything to postpone the vultures from getting up there in other words)
you will need gateways at the 6 base sooner than later however, but pershaps this is something you could do to buy yourself some time in 6v12 or even 6v3
terrans in my experience tend to get tempted more if you take a 3rd base that is nearer as opposed to farther away from them.. they get cocky as far as moving their units out and doing their push or whatever (hey, maybe this is what you want for them to do vs you anyway, but yea thats definately by experience) they always get the bright idea to vult attacks when the base is far away
"..or I have left to little in the middle and he just unsieges his shit and moves it to my doorstep without me being able to put up any resistance."
this shouldn't really ever have to be the case.. you are either overexpanding or.. yea you are probably overexpanding
and on a side note to Resonate, I think people sometimes are overly excited to expand when they see the terran taken his natural.. speed shuttle or just solid shuttle play as Legionnaire recently showed on Nostalgia vs Androide.. is a very good investment to make instead of dropping a 4th nexus somehwere on the map.
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P is reactionary race if you forgot + _+ Wait for them to come out and flank them hard >=) Otherwise, harass.
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No, im a proponent of +1 weapons; however, ive never thought about the +1 armor nor have I read the thread, so I will keep my mind open on which is superior.
You dont need cannons asap. Let's say you are 6, your opponent is 12. He is building up, maybe harassing a little but not really coming out and there isnt much you can do besides macro/defend. Bring 3 goons over to the 9:00 ramp and expand there. You should have good observer spread so if he tries an attack there OR he starts bringing his forces forward, you can not only move yours up to slow his attacks, but also you can move over to defend either way.
The problem comes in when the terran is very good and starts pushing forward, forcing you to defend, THEN brings vults over to raid the expansion, in which case you need cannons to defend. But, if the terran is not very very solid with good multitasking, he wont be able to pressure/harass/macro at a high level and make you worry about expanding once too many times.
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Yeah, pvt is gay vs anyone good.
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honestly its not so much about choosing when to attack
but managing your money properly so that you are always ready to attack
for example:
many protosses keep an observer over the terran factories. When the terran begins to build up a shitload of factories, the protoss stops expanding and makes a bunch of gateways and starts massing units.
Honestly, "how can i choose when to attack" should not be a big question. Figuring out how to have enough to destroy a terran push AT ANY TIMe is what makes a good protoss.
just my opinion n' all
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The only trouble i have is when i try to harass a 2 base terr, he's got sieged tank and turrent covered most of his base and i cant really do much
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then dont attack or harass him.
he just spent several hundred on turrets, maybe wasted some mines, and definitely wasted some time if you dont attack. Just expo. Expoing is really all there is to pvt...
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out macro your opponent and fight his army in open ground battles. do not attack his main or natural directly until you have economic superiority, which happens if you are winning. it takes a long time to achieve this against a good terran player. attacking sooner will result in your dragoons being splattered all over the ground below his base and to no avail.
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One thing I may add, if the terran is pushing out and you are beginning to get anxious to break his push I generally will drop 4-8 dts in a terran main (depends on how many expos/resources i have, if I do not have enough for 8 dts, ill make 4 dt/4 zeals instead) to create a huge distraction. You will need the shuttles anyway to defend cliffs, break pushes and expo to islands. Eliminate turrets/comsat first as most of his units will be out trying to push towards your base, then work on Facs/Depots. Once he pulls back vults, storm his front lines and break thru. You will then force him to scan your dts, battle your flanking goon/zeal and probably make more turrets all at the sametime.
All of the above is great, but your greatest victory is putting the huge amount of doubt in his head that he can still win if you succeed. Don't forget to throw up another Nexus while all this takes place. Hope this helps.
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PvT is always more about being ready for his attack than ready for your attack. If he's sitting on his thumbs macroing, and you know you can't touch him, then take the opportunity to position yourself strongly. By that I mean expo (like BigBalls was saying) and up your gateway-count as much as you feel you can. This way when he does decide to mosey on out, you are in a position to rebuild much faster than him and keep him contained.
Though there is no shame in taking a higher tech... unless you're so stubborn that you insist on keeping the fight on the ground ; )
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Sweden33719 Posts
Okay.. NOBODY mentioned this, but starting or faking carrier is a way to choose when to fight, and as froz/others said - expanding.
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do a fake expand early midgame, like build the nexus but stop probes and rape him when he tries to push
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u have to w8 for T , till he s "ready" and goes out, then u have to try to beat his army without big losses and than attack
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On May 31 2005 10:14 labcoated wrote: do a fake expand early midgame, like build the nexus but stop probes and rape him when he tries to push
This is generally what happens in PvT -
Terran 1fac ccs or even 2 fac vultures -> expand Protoss double expands, stops probes once his 3rd expo is up, starts massing gates Terran slow/fast pushes out (depending on if he cuts scvs for the 5th/6th fac), either going for the throat (the min only), or map control (his mineral only).
What I don't understand is that, Terran expos in almost all situations come later than the Protoss - the Protoss generally takes the natural and even the min only much quicker than the Terran, but it seems that slow push negates this effect?
For example, take Nada's style - he plays 2 fac vult - > cc - > starport + academy + mass turrets - > 2 dropship 12 vult harass -> min only -> mass tank.
Basically, since he turtles so much with the turrets (I assume he does this becuase he doesn't wnat ot lose to some newb strat and knows his harass will more than make up for his mass purchasing of turrets) and goes Starport, the Protoss is more than entitled to a 3rd base (which gets raped by the harass but I digress)
I am a big fan of the quick (whirlwind) push and as such it is essential to be the "leader" in the reaping of the expos otherwise I will get raped in the "push" - any comments about the economics of this (in that Factories and their prospective units as a whole cost much more than Gates) would be good.
Lastly, with regards to the +1 weaps or armor, I am a strong believer in only going 1 forge the entire game (and I don't even believe in carrier, so basically ground troops the whole time). Why only 1 forge? Base damage of Terran units are so high that Armor only helps with the Vulture/Probe situation - Attack however comes in handy once +2 kicks in with Zealots slicing mines in one hit. Further, there are many other upgrades that are useful than the 2nd forge - dual obs upgrades, Templar Archives and consequently Arbiter which I feel are all more useful than teh 2nd forge.
Even if you want to protect probes, instead of building the 2nd forge + upgrade, you can afford 2 cannons instead. If you go only 1 forge and choose to go armor, then it is your perogative, but I am strongly against dual forge (in that even speed shuttle/air weapons are better upgrades).
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so u dont like researching different ups in 1 forge or why u build 2 more forges for a total of 3 while u can only do 2 upgrades? :-P
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On May 31 2005 16:04 Regentropfen wrote: so u dont like researching different ups in 1 forge or why u build 2 more forges for a total of 3 while u can only do 2 upgrades? :-P
What do you mean? Weapons, Sheilds and Plasma Sheilds, that's three right?
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going to 3-0-0 you can use only 1 forge then if you add 2 forges you ll be able to use only two of them right ? but FA was probably making it for fun as dedicated forge 1-weapon; 1-armor; 1-shield shields are a strange upgrade but for exemple it helps your canons a lot versus zerglings [what ? no zerglings in pvt ? oh sorry about that ]
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On April 20 2005 21:06 Day[9] wrote:honestly its not so much about choosing when to attack but managing your money properly so that you are always ready to attack for example: many protosses keep an observer over the terran factories. When the terran begins to build up a shitload of factories, the protoss stops expanding and makes a bunch of gateways and starts massing units. Honestly, "how can i choose when to attack" should not be a big question. Figuring out how to have enough to destroy a terran push AT ANY TIMe is what makes a good protoss. just my opinion n' all
This is a VERY good point.
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but strategy that fails at the better level is useless
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Keep expanding, the Terran will come out or face a slow death.
Close Thread.
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Belgium9937 Posts
On June 08 2005 11:39 GaR wrote: Keep expanding, the Terran will come out or face a slow death.
Close Thread.
this is a recommended thread and thus needs to stay open
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I'm pretty sure you can go with Reaver Drop. Even if he does have turrets he's probably not gonna have them all around the outside of his base. Even then he'll probably just have one alone and i think a speed shuttle can make it across 1 turret if it doesn't stop. Try to get some zeals in the drop. One turret is = to 1 vulture so if he has turrets he doesn't have a lot of money. Try and apply constant pressure and make them worry about their safety more than your destruction.
But you might not want to listen to me, I suck.
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early 3 gate 2 shuttle GG
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16927 Posts
On June 08 2005 13:26 Antifate wrote: I'm pretty sure you can go with Reaver Drop. Even if he does have turrets he's probably not gonna have them all around the outside of his base. Even then he'll probably just have one alone and i think a speed shuttle can make it across 1 turret if it doesn't stop. Try to get some zeals in the drop. One turret is = to 1 vulture so if he has turrets he doesn't have a lot of money. Try and apply constant pressure and make them worry about their safety more than your destruction.
But you might not want to listen to me, I suck.
The Terran will sense something is not right by your goon count, and either assume Reavers or Dark Templar. Or, if you hide, he'll see from your Pylon count that you've hidden something. Besides, even if you get a Shuttle in, it's going to die before it gets out, so you've stranded a Reaver. Terran can just check on the minimap whenever an orange blip comes in and run SCVs prematurely or just put tanks there.
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16927 Posts
EDIT: wtf it double posted
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