EPToh, and I did read his post MaTRiX[SiN], i dont think the terran has to be very good to beat mass expos
Choosing when to fight, PvT - Page 2
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starofNC
United States1340 Posts
oh, and I did read his post MaTRiX[SiN], i dont think the terran has to be very good to beat mass expos | ||
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RedMeat
United Kingdom490 Posts
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
Note the strafe v beast game @wcg. beast was playing very well and strafe overexpanded early and beast didnt attack in time. think of how many games there is a 5-10 minute lull and you could have expanded but didnt. sure _very_ good terrans will probably eat it alive, but if hes having trouble choosing when to attack this implies that he feels he has enough army to kill his opponent yet he just sits there idly waiting for the terran to attack. Thus, I think it would be in his best interest to overexpand a slight amount, not only to force the terran out, but also because he seems like he could afford it. When i say expand one too many times, i mean youre sitting there with 2 bases, your 2nd natural is building, you have 5-7 gates pumping, go take another main. its only 400 minerals, which is just 3 more units, its not like youre really losing out that much, but the possible gain is huge. | ||
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rpf289
United States3524 Posts
On April 15 2005 08:33 Resonate wrote: What I do is put observers everywhere on the map, especially crucial areas and have others patrol expansions. I have my army in a line across the middle of the map, and when I see the Terran try to move out, I will attack across that whole front, and do my best to micro everything. Once his setup attempt has been defeated or the Terran has retreated, I retreat as well, and do it again when they try to set up again. Remember to attack the Terran's army while in transit, as they are the weakest then. You should probably have an almost equal number of zealots and goons, with more goons. Generally, you should try not to lose goons in droves, and if you do, that means you should have pulled back earlier. Attack repeatedly until your zealots are dead, then retreat and do it all over again. In summary, be an asshole and be annoying, and don't let the Terran set up. Try to storm drop his natural or main if you can while he wants to push out so his economy is crippled slightly, and therefore won't be able to keep up unit production. Put some DT's on your cliffs, and maybe an HT. That way you can commit most of your ground army to attacking, not running around to defend expansions.In PvT at high level, unless protoss wins it early, there tends to be a large build up at the terran natural of tanks and vultures while terran harrasses. Then, when he's ready, terran just unseiges and goes out. Are there any practical ways in mid-game (so not carriers/arbs) to allow toss to choose when to fight? cos basically terran gets to choose every time, as their defence is so strong. It just sucks to see terran controlling the game unchallanged, when toss basically has to suck it up and wait until terran is ready, even with a significant unit advantage. I just realized I'm rambling. Sorry. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2638 Posts
He then slowpushes out to take his min only. I feel like I can't do anything in this situation. I've allready secured my nat rigth before or just after he took his. I migth even have harassed it a bit depending on his tank placement. But my army is lacking and I desperatly need to get a third base running, which is going to be one of the other mains. (Probably 9 in this example.) So I can't stop the slowpush to the nat and I need to cover my main/nat and my expo, and I also need to keep enough forces to stop the terran from doing something. I just feel I don't have enough troops in this part of the game. Either a shitload of vults raid expo or nat/main because I don't have enough shit there to stop them (2-3 cannons and 1-2 goons doesn't help that much) or I have left to little in the middle and he just unsieges his shit and moves it to my doorstep without me being able to put up any resistance before he has turned the fast push into a slowpush once again. I can counter his min only but it really doesn't gain me that much since his newly produced units and mines/turrets will take out a pretty big chunck of what I have out there and the next wave of produced units will invaribly rape my expo while he takes another himself. I just get pissed of when playing good terrans I guess. It's so frustrating playing a mu when you have to rely on your opponents mistakes as much as playing good. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
Heh, no coincidence that the terran is doing 1fact expo. There is always the option to try and take this out early with drops or some kind of elevator strategy. But, its 12/6 so i suppose just macroing hard is the best option. If he decides to take his min only fast - after 2to4 facts and sets up well, you really cant do anything. Just macro hard and wait for him to make a move. If he starts to slow push towards you and positions are 12/6 youll be safe for some time. Once he reachs your doorstep he will have to pack them up front to be able to hold you or spread them out. If he packs them up front mostly, flank. If he spreads them out, just attack every once in awhile to clear out some space and flank. I dunno why you took the 3main instead of your 2nd nat. That might make things harder. If you are not able to take an expanson at 3main, nat or 2nd nat take an island. If he can just unsiege and move around at will, youve done something wrong already. Probably not kept up in mass. If you dont keep up in macro well enough, your basically screwed... | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2638 Posts
That was probably my biggest problem, because having to cover to different places is fucking hard at that part of the game. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
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rpf289
United States3524 Posts
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starofNC
United States1340 Posts
BigBalls forgive my ignorance but are you a proponent of the +1 armor upgrade to stall the vulture attacks? or.. In a map such as LT I don't see it being quite reasonable to defend 1 (possibly) finished nexus and 1 other warping almost finished nexus with pylon+cannon or 2 cannon while still macroing and keeping up with units.. Cuddlykitten taking the other main was probably a good move on ur part I think some things you can do if you surely dont see a starport anywhere with observers is to smartly place pylon+forge+maybe 1 cannon directly along a line beneath 9oclock ramp.. this will afford u some protection during your efforts to take your mineral only @ 6 oclock (building placement...i.e, anything to postpone the vultures from getting up there in other words) you will need gateways at the 6 base sooner than later however, but pershaps this is something you could do to buy yourself some time in 6v12 or even 6v3 terrans in my experience tend to get tempted more if you take a 3rd base that is nearer as opposed to farther away from them.. they get cocky as far as moving their units out and doing their push or whatever (hey, maybe this is what you want for them to do vs you anyway, but yea thats definately by experience) they always get the bright idea to vult attacks when the base is far away "..or I have left to little in the middle and he just unsieges his shit and moves it to my doorstep without me being able to put up any resistance." this shouldn't really ever have to be the case.. you are either overexpanding or.. yea you are probably overexpanding and on a side note to Resonate, I think people sometimes are overly excited to expand when they see the terran taken his natural.. speed shuttle or just solid shuttle play as Legionnaire recently showed on Nostalgia vs Androide.. is a very good investment to make instead of dropping a 4th nexus somehwere on the map. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Wait for them to come out and flank them hard >=) Otherwise, harass. | ||
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
You dont need cannons asap. Let's say you are 6, your opponent is 12. He is building up, maybe harassing a little but not really coming out and there isnt much you can do besides macro/defend. Bring 3 goons over to the 9:00 ramp and expand there. You should have good observer spread so if he tries an attack there OR he starts bringing his forces forward, you can not only move yours up to slow his attacks, but also you can move over to defend either way. The problem comes in when the terran is very good and starts pushing forward, forcing you to defend, THEN brings vults over to raid the expansion, in which case you need cannons to defend. But, if the terran is not very very solid with good multitasking, he wont be able to pressure/harass/macro at a high level and make you worry about expanding once too many times. | ||
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RiSE
United States3182 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
but managing your money properly so that you are always ready to attack for example: many protosses keep an observer over the terran factories. When the terran begins to build up a shitload of factories, the protoss stops expanding and makes a bunch of gateways and starts massing units. Honestly, "how can i choose when to attack" should not be a big question. Figuring out how to have enough to destroy a terran push AT ANY TIMe is what makes a good protoss. just my opinion n' all  | ||
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Sorrow_eyes
United States1007 Posts
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
he just spent several hundred on turrets, maybe wasted some mines, and definitely wasted some time if you dont attack. Just expo. Expoing is really all there is to pvt... | ||
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volair
United States20 Posts
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Vendetta[eV]
United States93 Posts
All of the above is great, but your greatest victory is putting the huge amount of doubt in his head that he can still win if you succeed. Don't forget to throw up another Nexus while all this takes place.  Hope this helps. | ||
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SaNteria
Canada487 Posts
Though there is no shame in taking a higher tech... unless you're so stubborn that you insist on keeping the fight on the ground ; ) | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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