EPTWhat about attack first then armor?
Can anyone supply me with some stats and thoughts on this?
thx
Armor instead of Attack upgrade PvT
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
What about attack first then armor? Can anyone supply me with some stats and thoughts on this? thx | ||
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On March 13 2005 12:21 BCloud wrote: Terran does 70, 125, 20, 30 damage, adding +1 armor wont change much i guess... +1 armor is good "prevention" from vulture raids.You need 3 hits to kill a probe instead of 2 w/o +1 armor.As was mentioned above | ||
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
On March 13 2005 12:32 hasuwar wrote: They melt like butter anyway not mine! | ||
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XythOs
Germany520 Posts
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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LastWish
2015 Posts
On March 13 2005 13:01 FreeZEternal wrote: I like to grade attack first, because when you have +3 attack mines die instanly~!!! +_+ important +_+ no this isn't important important is to divide your zealots per tanks to minimize splash loses(tank&mine). If u divide correctly low spread mines will only help you because they'll explode at tanks. | ||
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pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
On March 13 2005 13:01 FreeZEternal wrote: I like to grade attack first, because when you have +3 attack mines die instanly~!!! +_+ important +_+ This does make a big difference. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
On March 13 2005 13:22 LastWish wrote: no this isn't important important is to divide your zealots per tanks to minimize splash loses(tank&mine). If u divide correctly low spread mines will only help you because they'll explode at tanks. You haven't played a push whore terran -.-;; | ||
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w)Gs(Zero-
Colombia270 Posts
On March 13 2005 12:21 BCloud wrote: Terran does 70, 125, 20, 30 damage, adding +1 armor wont change much i guess... that's right | ||
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KiLLme1st
United States1824 Posts
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LastWish
2015 Posts
On March 13 2005 13:35 KiLLme1st wrote: FreeZEternal is Korean I think I will agree with him. a funny reaction for this... wtf does nationality have to do with it And i tell you if u send zealots attack-move through mine field, your zealots will gather around the mine+kill it. This all will slow them down a lot and through this time all of your lots will take like super-splash from tanks. Zealots are there in battlefield to run as fast as they can to reach tanks. Dragoons are the ones to kill mines mostly and finish off lonely,weak or wounded units. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28707 Posts
apart from that, it's pretty damn useless unless he's goliath heavy =[ personally I always upgrade attack and never more than one forge pvt. terran benefits tons from upgrades but toss doesn't benefit much cept for carriers.  | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
It's not like zeals won't get shot by vults when running in. A good push/Terran won't allow many zeals to get through a mine field. Edit: Lmao drone you HAD to post 1 second before didn't you. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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FroZZoR
China925 Posts
vulture prevention my ass better vulture prevention... considering u built a FORGE... is upgrade attack and build some damned cannons | ||
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lIlIlIlIlIlI
Korea (South)3851 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On March 13 2005 13:22 LastWish wrote: no this isn't important important is to divide your zealots per tanks to minimize splash loses(tank&mine). If u divide correctly low spread mines will only help you because they'll explode at tanks. S T F U IT IS IMPORTANT. What you said is important, BUT HAS JACK ALL TO DO WITH UPGRADES. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On March 13 2005 14:18 Liquid`Drone wrote: armor has one use only, that is for probes vs vultures apart from that, it's pretty damn useless unless he's goliath heavy =[ personally I always upgrade attack and never more than one forge pvt. terran benefits tons from upgrades but toss doesn't benefit much cept for carriers. To fight 3-3 terran with ground, you pretty much need 3-3-3 O_o Also I think when you are 3+.. goons/zealots take one less hit to kill tanks? On March 13 2005 15:56 FroZZoR wrote: armor is fucking useless vulture prevention my ass better vulture prevention... considering u built a FORGE... is upgrade attack and build some damned cannons See, I know you are good/great and all but! It is NOT useless, there's plenty of koreans (and I say koreans because there is not a whole lot of good non-korean terrans) who have absolutely excellent vulture sniper control, which means 2-3 cannons.. wont save your probes. I *think* the extra hit would be *great* :O | ||
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
How many terran make it first priority to upgrade after mid game? Lots of average-decent terrans don't seem to upgrade until late game... | ||
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GroT
Belgium3003 Posts
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As.I.Lay.Dying
United States456 Posts
On March 13 2005 17:21 GroT wrote: I think you should strive to be a mother fucking amazing protoss who never lets the vultures get through in the first place I second that. | ||
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Keanu_Reaver
Djibouti1432 Posts
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Fayth[pG]
Canada1093 Posts
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cacat
Korea (South)28 Posts
I mean.. even if u upgrade both armor and shield 3times, a siege tank with +1 attack pretty much neutralizes the armor upgrades... I'd go straight to +3 attack instead... even for carriers, i wouldn't upgrade their armor unless their attack upgrade has been +3 already... or with the money to upgrade armor, i'd rather produce one more goon or something... | ||
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nortydog
Australia3067 Posts
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{ToT}Strafe
Thailand7026 Posts
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
And carrier armor AND attack is important. carriers do 6x8 damage, but with full grade on weapons it changes to 9x8.. Goliath is the same... if they gain 1 armor they acutally block 1x8 more damage then before.. Both armor and attack is really good to upgrade in goliath vs carrier... ppl say grade dont mather much in ground unit battle tvp... In tvp the small battles on your cliff or if your island gets dropped it really makes a diffrence.. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28707 Posts
but like, say terran is building 3/3 goliaths they will deal 24 damage to the carriers if the carriers have no upgrades 18 if they have +3. that's a very large difference. if the goliaths DONT have upgrades then they do a base damage of 12 and only 6 if you have +3 armor, which is pretty ridiculous. (not to mention won't really ever happen, but who cares. :D ) | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28707 Posts
I mean unsieged tank vs dragoon goon 80 shield 100 health tank 30 damage after 3 shots goon will have 92-93 health left (1 armor and 1-2 shield regenerated) tank needs 4 shots more to kill, 7 total tank vs goon where goon has +3 armor 3 tank shots brings goon down to 95-96 health left then tank dealsh 26 damage per hit as opposed to 29 goon still dies in 4 hits more. +3 makes absolutely no difference in that scenario. vs sieged tank, same thing. goon vs vulture, normally vulture deals 19/4 = 4.75. 3 armor goon = 16/4 = 4. not really that big a difference either for the investment +3 is.. vulture vs zealot, 9 hits kills a zealot with 0 armor with +3 you need 10, assuming vultures have no attack themselves. and that is +3.. if you look at the differences +3 armor makes in tvz or pvz or zvz or pvp then the difference it makes in pvt is nonexistant. having +3 shield and +3 armor will make some difference, because if a unit is under attack and regenerates one shield then that one shield will deflect 4 damage, but still.. that costs 900/900. now if you're fighting against m&m or he's making a bunch of goliaths, then armor is good. but vs pure vulture tank you can feel free to avoid it completely. | ||
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LastWish
2015 Posts
On March 13 2005 16:42 FrozenArbiter wrote: S T F U IT IS IMPORTANT. What you said is important, BUT HAS JACK ALL TO DO WITH UPGRADES. I didn't say Protoss attack upgrades are useless - I just said *THIS* as for killing mines with zealots is a useless idea(because it doesn't work that good). | ||
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On March 13 2005 14:19 Ack1027 wrote: I'm pretty damn sure Freeze is better than everyone who has posted in this thread [ including me because I've played him before ] It's not like zeals won't get shot by vults when running in. A good push/Terran won't allow many zeals to get through a mine field. Edit: Lmao drone you HAD to post 1 second before didn't you. that's a clock, its hh:mm | ||
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
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4.Aiur
United States995 Posts
On March 13 2005 13:55 LastWish wrote: Not to mention that there is probably more than 1 mine going off. While it is stopping to kill it, another is coming in as well.a funny reaction for this... wtf does nationality have to do with it And i tell you if u send zealots attack-move through mine field, your zealots will gather around the mine+kill it. This all will slow them down a lot and through this time all of your lots will take like super-splash from tanks. Zealots are there in battlefield to run as fast as they can to reach tanks. Dragoons are the ones to kill mines mostly and finish off lonely,weak or wounded units. Get your zealots to the tanks ASAP and take as many mines as you can along the way. | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
On March 14 2005 01:46 Liquid`Drone wrote: grades matter quite a lot tvp. but protoss ground armor does not. I mean unsieged tank vs dragoon goon 80 shield 100 health tank 30 damage after 3 shots goon will have 92-93 health left (1 armor and 1-2 shield regenerated) tank needs 4 shots more to kill, 7 total tank vs goon where goon has +3 armor 3 tank shots brings goon down to 95-96 health left then tank dealsh 26 damage per hit as opposed to 29 goon still dies in 4 hits more. +3 makes absolutely no difference in that scenario. vs sieged tank, same thing. goon vs vulture, normally vulture deals 19/4 = 4.75. 3 armor goon = 16/4 = 4. not really that big a difference either for the investment +3 is.. vulture vs zealot, 9 hits kills a zealot with 0 armor with +3 you need 10, assuming vultures have no attack themselves. and that is +3.. if you look at the differences +3 armor makes in tvz or pvz or zvz or pvp then the difference it makes in pvt is nonexistant. having +3 shield and +3 armor will make some difference, because if a unit is under attack and regenerates one shield then that one shield will deflect 4 damage, but still.. that costs 900/900. now if you're fighting against m&m or he's making a bunch of goliaths, then armor is good. but vs pure vulture tank you can feel free to avoid it completely. Thats about it, only one thing though. I agree with you but I still find it very useful with armor vs vulture raids... | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28707 Posts
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statix
United States1760 Posts
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DuSkie
Czech Republic451 Posts
On March 13 2005 14:18 Liquid`Drone wrote: armor has one use only, that is for probes vs vultures apart from that, it's pretty damn useless unless he's goliath heavy =[ personally I always upgrade attack and never more than one forge pvt. terran benefits tons from upgrades but toss doesn't benefit much cept for carriers. yup thats true, but if Im going for Arbiter I upgrade 2x weapons + armor,dont know why,I just do it, that army looks much stronger then | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28707 Posts
you normally want to get it in pvz (archons benefit tons from them. 3/3 cracklings aren't bad at all vs +3 attack 0 shield archons, but +3 attack and 3 shield archons deal with them nicely. but in pvt and pvp only if you are so rich that it really doesn't matter what you do. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
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pfff
Belgium1352 Posts
oh, and armor is pretty important pvt when youre going carriers and the terran counters with gols. that 3+ armor makes a pretty big difference against the gols attack. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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m3th
United States19 Posts
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
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SchOOl_VicTIm
Greece2394 Posts
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On March 14 2005 14:47 SchOOl_VicTIm wrote: as for the carrier armor and shield upgrade: I'm not gonna go into math calculations and such, but from my experience as a T player, a carrier with 3 shield and 3 armor just doesn't fucking die!! carriers already have 4 armor and if the defenses get all upgraded, it simply is impossible to kill a bunch of them... (unless you micro gosu and can pull out the boxer style) Don't they have three natural armour. It was four, it got tuned down in 1.08. I think. | ||
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SchOOl_VicTIm
Greece2394 Posts
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pfff
Belgium1352 Posts
shield upgrade could be usefull, but shields melt when they see gols anyway, and getting 3 shields is incrediblly expensive. armor has its uses against gols (and against scvs on islands), but it is infinitely worse then attack vs terran. if you are getting armor to counter vultraids, you should have a forge. why dont you just get some cannons? | ||
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Holorin
France227 Posts
On March 14 2005 01:46 Liquid`Drone wrote: grades matter quite a lot tvp. but protoss ground armor does not. I mean unsieged tank vs dragoon goon 80 shield 100 health tank 30 damage after 3 shots goon will have 92-93 health left (1 armor and 1-2 shield regenerated) tank needs 4 shots more to kill, 7 total tank vs goon where goon has +3 armor 3 tank shots brings goon down to 95-96 health left then tank dealsh 26 damage per hit as opposed to 29 goon still dies in 4 hits more. +3 makes absolutely no difference in that scenario. vs sieged tank, same thing. goon vs vulture, normally vulture deals 19/4 = 4.75. 3 armor goon = 16/4 = 4. not really that big a difference either for the investment +3 is.. vulture vs zealot, 9 hits kills a zealot with 0 armor with +3 you need 10, assuming vultures have no attack themselves. and that is +3.. if you look at the differences +3 armor makes in tvz or pvz or zvz or pvp then the difference it makes in pvt is nonexistant. having +3 shield and +3 armor will make some difference, because if a unit is under attack and regenerates one shield then that one shield will deflect 4 damage, but still.. that costs 900/900. now if you're fighting against m&m or he's making a bunch of goliaths, then armor is good. but vs pure vulture tank you can feel free to avoid it completely. Everything was said, the size/attacktype is so important as the armor is deducted before this reduction and as tank deals pretty 85 damage, you'll want to kill it fast more than resist (no-)longer Funny to notice that full toss air upgrades 3-3-3 costs 2100-2100 [t/z full air : 1125-1125] | ||
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SoL.Origin
Argentina2400 Posts
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Travin
Sweden672 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
On April 14 2005 12:53 SoL.Origin wrote: why armor? why not shields? works for probes and cannons... reach used it as his first upgrade in some reps Because shields costs a fuckload more? Based on these posts and your "great" posts in the PP4 you really seem to have a shaky understanding of basic knowledge... | ||
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SoL.Origin
Argentina2400 Posts
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January
123 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
On April 14 2005 15:06 SoL.Origin wrote: Then Reach must be really stupid. Exalted why are you not a progamer given your unholy knowledge of the game? TT Good job not being specific in what kind of reps and situations he got shields, that's a little important, don't you think? If it's PvZ with Archons then obviously shield has use, if he was rushing to carrier then plasma shields would have more use than armor. Stick to limiting your mind on what's "NOT POSSIBLE HUMANELY!" instead of debating on strategy forum plz. For the kids talking about going dual forge and armor up, instead use that 150+100/100 on something that's actually productive - another expand? If you're that worried about being harassed by vultures, that 150 + 100 will buy you two more cannons, much more useful than the extra hit that will help you when your upg is complete (fuckload of time later). It's already been proven that it's weak vs mech anyway becuase of such high base damage by the ran units.. | ||
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SainT
Chile1067 Posts
On April 14 2005 12:53 SoL.Origin wrote: why armor? why not shields? works for probes and cannons... reach used it as his first upgrade in some reps as exalted said, in the early game u won't have enough money to purshase them | ||
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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Ada
Germany150 Posts
+1 armor sounds nice vs vutlure raids, but if vultures are able to attack your probes, something went wrong anyway. | ||
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RuNei
United States30 Posts
On March 13 2005 15:56 FroZZoR wrote: armor is fucking useless vulture prevention my ass better vulture prevention... considering u built a FORGE... is upgrade attack and build some damned cannons Best quote in the whole thread  | ||
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beavis.smurf
United States339 Posts
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NovaTheFeared
United States7229 Posts
Dude you're fucking spamming up the strategy threads with answers like "here's an idea: DON'T LOSE, then you'll win!" (Link) and doing vicious necromancy on old as fuck threads.  | ||
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gestasi
Germany90 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
On February 01 2006 22:56 nova_442 wrote: Ban Runei please. | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
and the comment was a completely useless one too bannnn | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
"Guys I bumbed this old thread up becouse guess what, I totally feel this and that becouse of this" | ||
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ChoboCop
United States954 Posts
That is too funny. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
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SpuniasauR
Australia1500 Posts
thats twice its been bumped now.3/3/3 is nice v. 3/3 terran, it will stop your units melting, although as drone said on the first page, terran benefits so much more from upgrades in this matchup. It's really horrible watching 0/0/0 toss take on 3/3 terran | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
 Does being 0-1-0 Protoss vs 0-0 terran increase the number of shots it takes a seiged tank to kill a dragoon/zeal ? | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
Armor does not increase the number of direct tank hits to kill a zealot or dragoon, no matter if the toss is 3-3-3 and the terran 0-0, it's the very same amount. Goons - 3 hits, zealots - 4 hits. Armor/shields affect only splash damage/vulture attack enough to make a difference. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
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Big Blind
21 Posts
He would have been yelled at to use the search function for sure if he posted asking. I think the point is, you don't need upgrades early, but if the game goes on you have to get something going before he's 3/3 and you're 0/0/0. | ||
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pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
On July 03 2006 07:43 Big Blind wrote: I think this is probably a good example of a thread that could be bumped. He would have been yelled at to use the search function for sure if he posted asking. I think the point is, you don't need upgrades early, but if the game goes on you have to get something going before he's 3/3 and you're 0/0/0. You are right. He may have been yelled at for starting one and not searching. However, all the answers he sought were already in the thread, so why bump? I think the idea is if you are going to bump a thread, then have something significant and new to contribute. The second bump was better than the first because it asked a question (though I think this was answered in the exsisting thread) whereas the first bump just expressed agreement, which is dumb. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On March 13 2005 13:32 FreeZEternal wrote: You haven't played a push whore terran -.-;; The spreading of the zeals is much more important, but attack upgrade is still more important because the Terran units do immense damage, so upgrading armor does a lot less to block damage than attack upgrades do to inflict damage. As for the +1 armor to defend vulture raids, it's pretty useless because by the time you get it, the Terran should be 1-1 anyway. PvT these days is usually a macro game. Any decent Terran can max out well before the 20 minute marker even while harrassing unless he chooses to time a push earlier (constant fighting = lower supply, duh). He will also no doubt already have 1-1 upgrades by 20 minutes, possibly even 2-2. By the 30 minute marker he is almost without a doubt 3-3 unless he is just being lazy. I have a rep for instance of iloveoov maxing out in 12:30 even though he was vulture harrassing until his push. Edit: I don't like bringing up max out times in a thread like this because as I said it obviously depends on how intense the game is. The more action, the fewer units, the less expansions, blah blah blah, everyone knows this already I assume. It's also self-evident that upgrades work the most effectively in larger groups. I'm bringing up max out times in order to remind everyone of what you really have time to upgrade, and remember that upgrades really play a bigger role in this type of a game than in a Boxer vs Garimto game 5 SKY 2001 like game that is very micro intensive. Really, you're +1 armor upgrade is going to be negated very early on by his 1-1, so you're much better off devoting the money to attack, where it will be useful in more situations than just vulture raids. I'm not saying not to upgrade armor. I still stand by what I said in a past thread that 3-3-3 upgraded toss is underrated (most players only upgrade attack no matter how long the game lasts), but you can't afford to waste that kind of money too early. I don't recommend ever making more than 2 forges either, since you are much better off throwing down the money for arbiter or carrier tech. Exalted: Do remember that in a macro game, the Protoss should be out expanding the Terran and will have more money to spend because of it. If you're going to try to persist in that ground war, you really need more than just weapons upgrades, preferrably going all the way up to 3-3-3 if the game lasts long enough just like FA said. And as I said the last time you called me an idiot for calling 3-3-3 underrated, there is a time and a place for it -- it's not something you do every game. More often than not, air provides a better end-game option than persisting in a ground war. But I'll go so far as to say this: I personally do not believe ForU would have lost that infamous game against NaDa if he had spent money upgrading to 3-3-3 instead of massing 0-0-0 units. And don't say it would have cost him too much money because for most of the game he had 4 digits of both resources. He would have successfully contained NaDa until NaDa ran dry. And don't hate on Runei. If more SC gamers took things as light heartedly as him, there wouldn't be such a thing as an "east mentality." | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On July 03 2006 07:43 Big Blind wrote: I think this is probably a good example of a thread that could be bumped. He would have been yelled at to use the search function for sure if he posted asking. I think the point is, you don't need upgrades early, but if the game goes on you have to get something going before he's 3/3 and you're 0/0/0. 100% true, every single word you said. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
On July 03 2006 14:06 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I think its important to note that if you dont upgrade armor then vultures become even more rediculously cost effective against goons (which are supposed to be the counter). +3 vults vs goons with no armor can win fairly easily even without tank support. This makes vulture harass wayyy too good in late game when vults can already take out cannons quickly because of high sheild to hp ratio. So in my opinon getting armor upgrades before late game is a must. Unless of course you're going heavy carrier or something like that. good insight, never tough of that | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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stLm
United States9 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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wXs.Havok
Argentina529 Posts
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
On May 30 2007 08:59 stLm wrote: i do weapon first always, then armor, then weapon again, then armor, i dont do shield till later.. TEMP BAN MUCH? | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
2 post users don't get temp banned | ||
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ShabZzoY!
Great Britain760 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
(to the MOD who's about to ban the poor guy, plz send him a msg and dont ban him permanently. Its obvious he's new to the forum and not a multi account. Seeing him reminds me of myself getting banned "for no reason".) | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9104 Posts
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pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
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dementus
Singapore1151 Posts
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
here | ||
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iGS.Sora
Canada16 Posts
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