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On March 21 2018 17:11 f10eqq wrote:
1) In one of the translated Stork vods he says something about bottom right causing reavers to bugout (in the context of proxy reaver vs 12 nex -> cannons pvp), so maybe it has something to do with the angle of attack? I'd be interested in the bwapi people trying to figure this out.
2) Yes
3) Some people like it, but it's all personal preference. I'd recommend shift+tab for teal/red colors though since reds usually more visible on the minimap for most people.
thanks man. the shift+tab is a godsend.
Another question that I just ran into. Can lurker spines kill DTs without seeing them? There were no ovies around but two of my DTs just disappeared when I sent them to snipe lurkers. I'm guessing the spines hit everything regardless of cloak. I will be more careful and backstab as much as possible.
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Pre muta timing, how many sunks can a Terran bust with x mmf force? Yes I know lings are s factor yada yada, but what’s a rough idea? 2 sunks= 8 rines and a couple medics or what? How does it scale
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On March 19 2018 01:16 Dazed. wrote:
I was asking in a general way in order to get an idea of how many lings should keep me in my base at x marine count, obviously circumstances change but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to convey an answer. I’m asking for a heuristic.
On March 22 2018 05:19 Dazed. wrote:
Pre muta timing, how many sunks can a Terran bust with x mmf force? Yes I know lings are s factor yada yada, but what’s a rough idea? 2 sunks= 8 rines and a couple medics or what? How does it scale
id stay in base vs 1.5x or more lings, tho once marine count rises or u mix in some firebats u can take on a stupid amount of lings
3 marines 1 medic is about equivalent to 1 sunken. 12 marines 3 medics will easily bust 3 unsupported sunks if you aren't attacking through a tiny choke. once you get +1 it shifts even more in favor of mnm
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- 8 marine 2 medic can be held with 1 sunken and 10-12 lings, or 2 sunkens for safety. (although 2 sunkens alone won't hold, they need to be supported by drones of few lings) 3 sunkens is 100% secure but it's an overinvestment from Z
- 10-12 marine 2-3 medic you need minimum 2 sunken and lings. 3 sunken if you only have like 6 lings
- 16 marine 4 medic (5 rax counter attack to your muta) you need minimum 4 sunken and lings, as 4 sunkens will die
- Anything 16+ marine 4+ medic requires a ton of sunkens to the point where terran starts lacking surface area to attack. On FS a sunkane wall of 6+ sunkens is very hard to break as choke is not that wide
From timing perspective, unless terrans plays an all in like 3 rax timing before muta, everything except an early 2 medic push can be held with mutas spawning just in time. So where Z really has to be careful is those 2 rax timings. Everything else is a matter of taste if Z wants to be very deffensive with multiple sunkens or try to go for muta ling army / quick lurker etc.
Now some general remarks:
- Much depends on how terran attacks. A proper attack where marines steam + heal a bit + medic go 1st and tank an initial shot from sunkens and nice spread of marines to allow them to attack at the same time + healing of marines that are getting hit by sunkens makes any attack + targeting sunkens one-by-one is probably a 100% stronger attack than a version without those actions.
- Zergling micro can mean anything from bad micro and not even getting a single marine to acutally killing a whole pack. Jaedong with his superior ling micro usually sticks to just 1 max 2 sunkens, but most other players won't be able to do it.
- +1 attack and especially +1 armor on marines changes the outcome dramatically
- temporary evolution chamber in front of sunkens helps a lot as it minimizes the surface for so marines can't attack at the same time but also makes some of the marines shoot at the evolution chamber if not microed properly.
- a rule of thumb that will only get you as far is 1 sunken per 1 medic
So long story short, there is no single rule. All depends on execution from Terran and Zerg, upgrades and different tactics around building placement, map specifics etc. Also what has to be considered is every sunken made by zerg is a win for terran, unless of course terran himself is heavily commited to the attack.
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On March 22 2018 01:46 Golgotha wrote:
Another question that I just ran into. Can lurker spines kill DTs without seeing them? There were no ovies around but two of my DTs just disappeared when I sent them to snipe lurkers. I'm guessing the spines hit everything regardless of cloak. I will be more careful and backstab as much as possible.
Absolutely. Units don't have to be visible to be damaged by splash or spells. Lurker spines on DT, Corsair on cloaked Wraith, Storm on cloaked Ghost, Reavers and Archons on Zealots standing on top of burrowed Lurkers, etc...
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Are there any tricks to consider when microing vultures vs marines, or just patrol as against zealots?
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What do pros use Optical Flare for besides just on Observers so their Wraiths can Cloak?
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not really common but lurkers that are holding ramps or random overlords lul.
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when toss steals your gas in a TvP, how is terran supposed to react? whenever I play and steal their gas, I find that it gives me a huge advantage and I can overwhelm them with goons before their tank is up.
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On March 23 2018 22:38 Golgotha wrote:
when toss steals your gas in a TvP, how is terran supposed to react? whenever I play and steal their gas, I find that it gives me a huge advantage and I can overwhelm them with goons before their tank is up.
Really depends on what build you're doing, if you're doing Rax CC and it happens then just take the gas at your natural and line up ~7 scvs to mine it and deposit straight into natural CC when it finishes, if doing another build then the best response is probably to move into Rax CC and just take your natural with a bunker.
The other option, rarely used these days, is to proxy another barracks and go all in with marine/scv.
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On March 23 2018 23:46 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2018 22:38 Golgotha wrote:
when toss steals your gas in a TvP, how is terran supposed to react? whenever I play and steal their gas, I find that it gives me a huge advantage and I can overwhelm them with goons before their tank is up. Really depends on what build you're doing, if you're doing Rax CC and it happens then just take the gas at your natural and line up ~7 scvs to mine it and deposit straight into natural CC when it finishes, if doing another build then the best response is probably to move into Rax CC and just take your natural with a bunker. The other option, rarely used these days, is to proxy another barracks and go all in with marine/scv.
im doing the standard siege expand. so rax into fac into fe. but you're saying i should go straight into rax and cc instead?
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You can also just kill the gas with 3-4 scvs when the assimilator finished and take it a bit later. It will delay your tank and you are a bit behind economically but zealot and goon pressure won't be so problematic compared to a rax expand (and you don't risk being pylon blocked at the natural). If you have a ramp you are safe with a couple of marines until your tank finishes and you can siege expand as usual. But you have to be careful to not let your gas get stolen again, otherwise you are really behind. So keep the probe away with a marine and use an scv on top of the gas to make sure you can build the refinery before the probe can steal it again.
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On March 24 2018 00:45 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2018 23:46 jello_biafra wrote:On March 23 2018 22:38 Golgotha wrote:
when toss steals your gas in a TvP, how is terran supposed to react? whenever I play and steal their gas, I find that it gives me a huge advantage and I can overwhelm them with goons before their tank is up. Really depends on what build you're doing, if you're doing Rax CC and it happens then just take the gas at your natural and line up ~7 scvs to mine it and deposit straight into natural CC when it finishes, if doing another build then the best response is probably to move into Rax CC and just take your natural with a bunker. The other option, rarely used these days, is to proxy another barracks and go all in with marine/scv. im doing the standard siege expand. so rax into fac into fe. but you're saying i should go straight into rax and cc instead?
If you kill the probe after it steals your gas then you can kill the assimilator ASAP with 5-6 SCVs and your marines then go into standard siege expand with a slightly delayed tank but I think the better response is just to take expand more quickly and get a bunker to hold it
Just my 2 cents though, Cryoc's advice might be more sound 
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On March 24 2018 02:40 Cryoc wrote:
You can also just kill the gas with 3-4 scvs when the assimilator finished and take it a bit later. It will delay your tank and you are a bit behind economically but zealot and goon pressure won't be so problematic compared to a rax expand (and you don't risk being pylon blocked at the natural). If you have a ramp you are safe with a couple of marines until your tank finishes and you can siege expand as usual. But you have to be careful to not let your gas get stolen again, otherwise you are really behind. So keep the probe away with a marine and use an scv on top of the gas to make sure you can build the refinery before the probe can steal it again.
Doesn't Terran fall further behind from pulling 3 SCV to kill gas than Protoss does by making the Assimilator? Also, what do you think would be a good way to follow it up if you were looking to pressure - for example, could this lead into a shallow 2 because you use the floating minerals to make 2 rax?
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On March 24 2018 09:18 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2018 02:40 Cryoc wrote:
You can also just kill the gas with 3-4 scvs when the assimilator finished and take it a bit later. It will delay your tank and you are a bit behind economically but zealot and goon pressure won't be so problematic compared to a rax expand (and you don't risk being pylon blocked at the natural). If you have a ramp you are safe with a couple of marines until your tank finishes and you can siege expand as usual. But you have to be careful to not let your gas get stolen again, otherwise you are really behind. So keep the probe away with a marine and use an scv on top of the gas to make sure you can build the refinery before the probe can steal it again. Doesn't Terran fall further behind from pulling 3 SCV to kill gas than Protoss does by making the Assimilator? Also, what do you think would be a good way to follow it up if you were looking to pressure - for example, could this lead into a shallow 2 because you use the floating minerals to make 2 rax?
Yes of course T falls behind economically as I wrote in my initial response, but that's the inherent PvT advantage. The minerals are not the problem you just build your CC a bit earlier on the high ground (or right at the natural and use a bunker to buy the 20s or so until your siege mode is ready). With the later gas you obviously won't pull SCVs from the gas anymore after the factory is done, so your followup build is not really screwed up.
Academy builds are barely working with a correctly timed gas so I wouldn't do that personally unless maybe you killed the probe very fast and can kill the gas faster because otherwise goon range will just kill you.
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On March 24 2018 02:40 Cryoc wrote:
You can also just kill the gas with 3-4 scvs when the assimilator finished and take it a bit later. It will delay your tank and you are a bit behind economically but zealot and goon pressure won't be so problematic compared to a rax expand (and you don't risk being pylon blocked at the natural). If you have a ramp you are safe with a couple of marines until your tank finishes and you can siege expand as usual. But you have to be careful to not let your gas get stolen again, otherwise you are really behind. So keep the probe away with a marine and use an scv on top of the gas to make sure you can build the refinery before the probe can steal it again.
Thanks man, I will kill the assimilator.
Can you also help with a TvT question? If I open 1 FAC FE (standard), but the enemy goes double proxy rax, how do I defend? Because I usually don't even get a marine, I float that thing asap.
This means it's a scouting problem, in TvT, when should I send out my scouting scv? For protoss, I always scout in all my matchups with the first probe that makes a pylon. But I am not sure when to scout as T.
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why dont you get a marine? what do you kill the scouting scv with?
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Yeah, not getting a marine I would consider greedy unless you already scouted your opponent. When you scout the middle with a 13 scout you should be safe, but if the proxy is somewhere else you are dead without marines. Also not being able to kill the scout opens up some early game timings from your opponent since he knows exactly what is going on until your first vulture killed the scout. So a 2 vulture timing with some marines for example can give you some serious trouble.
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In response to Dazed ZvT question you need at least 1 medic per sunken of zerg to do a sunken bust pre-mutalisk egg timing, or pre lurker/hydra timing. The most important parts of that stragegy are 1) Marine Range and Stim 2) critical mass number of marines in cluster, ideally no fewer then 18 and possibly 24-30. 3) 5-7 medics, if he has scouted your attack and starts to mass creep colonies and sunken colonies in his natural. 8 sunken colonies will need at least 8 medics along with the marine group. in an ideal push, 6 sunken can get broken by 7 medics, 9 sunkens can get broken by 11 medics, you want more medics then what the zerg has. 4) A couple firebats, watch out for speedling surrounds from the back in your attack, or from a burrowed position underneath your attack. 5) +1 infantry attack or armor upgrade 6)spreading units out so medics have high surface area for healing. not getting clumped and clustered where sunkens can do max damage in their shots. 6) if you fail to get these things all together in time and zerg has got too many sunkens/lings, wait for a siege tank and siege mode. this will force the zerg to attack into a well defended position to stop his sunkens from getting ranged from far away. After this all goes down if you havent killed zerg yet and zerg hasn't killed you yet with a lurker drop, muta backstab, muta harass, etc, terran needs to make sure his expansion is running and get a science vessel with irradiate to combat late muta and defiler usage from zerg, and any other hivetech. If terran keeps upgrading and takes his third its usually GG in favor of terran.
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Thanks everyone.
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EPT
