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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On June 02 2017 08:15 Denzak wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Category:Zerg_Build_Orders There is no overpool versus Terran. Why not? Should Zergs never overpool versus a Terran? This page was last modified on 18 June 2009, at 09:11  Maybe sometime I'll go write some articles in there for fun  | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
I'm facing a lot of lower level Protoss that go for more earlier Gateway units, and then they focus on sniping early FD tanks. Once the two gates are scouted, in this case, should mines be foregone for Siege first, along with a fast CC + nat walloff? Really just focusing on openings here, maybe the first 5-8 minutes or so. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany914 Posts
Variant A is basically the safe expansion version vs FD. You don't need to push, just play a standard game. Your economies are about the same. The same versus variant B, play defensive and place your mines at smart locations at your natural entrance. You have the economic advantage no need to push out. You should build around 6 marines to absorb enough shots while you lay mines. Research siege after mines asap so that you don't die to a possible bust with one zealot and the goons. The only variant where I would recommend to switch to siege expand is if you scout a 10/15 gate opening. This one is almost impossible to hold with an FD. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
Alright thanks! I'll just not push in these cases and continue on | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
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jaeboss
69 Posts
On June 04 2017 15:59 CecilSunkure wrote: In 1.18? Often times double click on game to join, but the list shifts at last second causing to join wrong game. Also sometimes they see race they don't like and leave. this happened so many times to me that i now use Alt-O to join games. i've miss-joined the same game 3 times in a row before because of double clicking. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On June 04 2017 15:59 CecilSunkure wrote: In 1.18? Often times double click on game to join, but the list shifts at last second causing to join wrong game. Also sometimes they see race they don't like and leave. Thanks, that makes sense. That was really bugging me... New question. In ZvP, Is there any way to stop a protoss player from taking hard-to-access expansions in the midgame? In particular the 3,6,9, and 12 o'clock expansions on Fighting Spirit, where there's just two small ramps (one of them guarded by their natural) and very little room. I try to scout them often, but it seems to always go like: [run in zergling, nothing there] {30 seconds later} [run in another zergling and see multiple cannons warping, a pylon wall, zealots blocking the ramp, etc] Or even if i do manage to catch it before they have defenses up, they'll just clear out my attacking lings with their entire army, and guard it until they get defenses up. Once their defenses are up, it just seems like suicide to even try attacking it with my midgame ling/hydra army. And by the time I get defilers, they'll have reavers/high templar, so even with dark swarm it'll be difficult. Is there a good way to attack these expansions? Worth trying a drop? Or should I just not even try, and take another expansion myself? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28879 Posts
But generally, on fighting spirit, you are just delaying, and imo, you want to prioritize droning up, teching up and stabilizing on 4 bases rather than trying to stop him from getting his third. Stopping p from establishing a second natural and main, that's kinda crucial, and p being about to take one of those sometimes forces your hand and means you need to engage. But the third you basically just have to accept that if he really tries to take it, he will take it. Still, killing the first probe he sends is good, killing the second is great, and if you manage to delay more than that, it's the kind of thing that starts to make a real difference. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On June 05 2017 12:20 Liquid`Drone wrote: But generally, on fighting spirit, you are just delaying, and imo, you want to prioritize droning up, teching up and stabilizing on 4 bases rather than trying to stop him from getting his third. Stopping p from establishing a second natural and main, that's kinda crucial, and p being about to take one of those sometimes forces your hand and means you need to engage. But the third you basically just have to accept that if he really tries to take it, he will take it. Still, killing the first probe he sends is good, killing the second is great, and if you manage to delay more than that, it's the kind of thing that starts to make a real difference. Thanks for the info. So basically, if you're not doing an early attack, you just play completely defensive until the late game? What if the P doesn't try to take a main/natural but instead goes for the side base on the other side of him (like, the 6 o'clock if he started at 7 o'clock)? | ||
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Ryzel
United States561 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28879 Posts
On June 05 2017 12:53 Luddite wrote: Thanks for the info. So basically, if you're not doing an early attack, you just play completely defensive until the late game? What if the P doesn't try to take a main/natural but instead goes for the side base on the other side of him (like, the 6 o'clock if he started at 7 o'clock)? Well in general you can always attack if an opening appears, so I don't agree with the 'completely defensive' line of thinking. You want to have units on the map, so you can poke at the protoss army, pick off stray templars and units, and have map awareness. And you can always have 3/5 hatch hydra as your standard build, then you'll often be aiming to end the game before p takes his third. But like, if you morph a lair, you're almost always accepting that p is gonna get his third. I think p starting at 7 and taking 6 before 9 has two pretty obvious followups. Firstly, it really opens the p main to drops from the top. Secondly, it's an obvious play to move towards 5, so you gotta pay close attention to that. Overall I think it's significantly weaker from protoss and normally something zerg can punish with good army movement. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On June 05 2017 18:21 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think p starting at 7 and taking 6 before 9 has two pretty obvious followups. Firstly, it really opens the p main to drops from the top. Secondly, it's an obvious play to move towards 5, so you gotta pay close attention to that. Overall I think it's significantly weaker from protoss and normally something zerg can punish with good army movement. Oh I meant that he takes 9 oclock (his second natural), then takes 6 oclock. So he's got the two side bases well defended with cannons, his army in the natural which can quickly move to whichever side base is threatened, and his base is guarded from drops by the two side bases. So he's in a really tough defensive position, and he's got 4 bases/4 gasses, so he can quickly build up this 200/200 death ball that wrecks me. Or like you said he can even go take another main/natural. | ||
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-Frog-
United States514 Posts
The protoss doesn't go right for the third but does take it after a speedlot attack and defends it with cannons/HT. Effort responds by ignoring the base, expanding to his 4th and teching to mutas so that he can confront the protoss army in the middle of the map. He ends up positioning himself in a way to defend his 4th if need be but also to counterattack the protoss main. After he snipes the HT protoss is forced to fight him when Effort engages the natural and can't win without storm. Of course this is Effort playing and you can see him turn god mode on partway through the game in order to win, but the same principles apply. Don't try to break the fortified position but expand and try to force favorable engagements elsewhere on the map. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28879 Posts
On June 06 2017 01:23 Luddite wrote: Oh I meant that he takes 9 oclock (his second natural), then takes 6 oclock. So he's got the two side bases well defended with cannons, his army in the natural which can quickly move to whichever side base is threatened, and his base is guarded from drops by the two side bases. So he's in a really tough defensive position, and he's got 4 bases/4 gasses, so he can quickly build up this 200/200 death ball that wrecks me. Or like you said he can even go take another main/natural. Ah. In that case, it's tough to break him and you have to accept playing late game, and you want to learn being able to handle a protoss death ball. But like, at this point you're also at the stage where you have defilers, and with defilers and drops, those expansions aren't any tougher to break than a regular natural is. If he's at 7 and he has both 9 and 6 and a big army, you can do stuff like simultaneous defiler ling drops on both 9 and 6 while attacking his main army to draw his attention. Often he's not able to storm defensively in one of the expansions, and then you kill off one of them. I mean, if the protoss is able to fend off the attacks better than you're able to pull them off, then he's actually just playing better, so it's totally fair that he ends up winning. ;p | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On June 06 2017 03:48 Liquid`Drone wrote: Ah. In that case, it's tough to break him and you have to accept playing late game, and you want to learn being able to handle a protoss death ball. But like, at this point you're also at the stage where you have defilers, and with defilers and drops, those expansions aren't any tougher to break than a regular natural is. If he's at 7 and he has both 9 and 6 and a big army, you can do stuff like simultaneous defiler ling drops on both 9 and 6 while attacking his main army to draw his attention. Often he's not able to storm defensively in one of the expansions, and then you kill off one of them. I mean, if the protoss is able to fend off the attacks better than you're able to pull them off, then he's actually just playing better, so it's totally fair that he ends up winning. ;p Hmm OK. It just seems like I'm being too passive overall when I try to play "standard", because there's too many games where the P is like: {forge first fast expand to natural with wall in} can't attack that {P pressures me with speedlots/corsairs} gotta focus on defense {expands to 2nd natural side base with cannons above ramp} can't attack that {expands to other side base} can't attack that So i'm just completely defensive while he build up a massive economy. I haven't tried dropping with defilers though, that's a good idea. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
2 Sunkens + sim can defend speedlot +1 and sairs timing, along with a couple hydra, or a spore. | ||
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lestye
United States4232 Posts
On June 06 2017 04:30 CecilSunkure wrote: Did you watch the JD translated video? He described importance in stopping cannons from going up at P's 4th/5th, since once they are up becomes much more a pain. If you are able to get to 4 saturated bases as Z, you should be able to roll the Protoss once hive tech + upgs are finished, assuming good macro. 2 Sunkens + sim can defend speedlot +1 and sairs timing, along with a couple hydra, or a spore. Oh I didn't know this Youtube channel existed. This is really kickass in addition to that "Tiny Land" youtube channel that adds subtitles to pro Korean streams. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On June 06 2017 04:30 CecilSunkure wrote: Did you watch the JD translated video? He described importance in stopping cannons from going up at P's 4th/5th, since once they are up becomes much more a pain. If you are able to get to 4 saturated bases as Z, you should be able to roll the Protoss once hive tech + upgs are finished, assuming good macro. 2 Sunkens + sim can defend speedlot +1 and sairs timing, along with a couple hydra, or a spore. Thanks, thats a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I'm not sure what to take from that video though. I kinda feel like Jaedong only held off the midgame push (the first one with HTs) by being way better at micro/multitasking, and most normal low-level players would have just died there, or at least I would have. He still lost his natural and a ton of drones. And then right after that, he only managed to kill the P's 4th base with exceptionally good game sense and micro. | ||
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