EPTI should add that he was a Zerg player.
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 317
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olabaz
United States298 Posts
I should add that he was a Zerg player. | ||
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Turiski
United States6 Posts
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Kau
Canada3502 Posts
On May 25 2017 15:32 Turiski wrote: ... I really should learn to check the forum before posting. Can this post be deleted? Nope we don't do post deletions. Go ahead and edit your post out or you could even put the original question and a link to where you found your answer. | ||
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ihcob
23 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28864 Posts
In bigger battles laying mines mid-battle usually doesn't really work out, but if it's like, 4 tank 8 vulture vs 10 goon 6 zealot or whatever, you can/should lay mines around the goons once the zealots have been taken care of. | ||
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Ryzel
United States554 Posts
I wanted build orders that started out with the potential for aggression and punishing 14CC/14Nex/12 Hatch, but also have a reasonable ability to transition to macro (even if at a slight disadvantage). I want to be active early game and keep the enemy on their toes. After looking through liquipedia I decided these looked best for me... ZvZ - Overpool to 2 hatch muta ZvT - Overpool to 3 hatch muta to lurker ZvP - Overpool to 3 base spire to 5 hatch Hydra Are these viable at all, or are they stupid? Are there any different builds recommended that start as the aggressor yet maintain decent macro transitions? TYVM in advance! | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28864 Posts
zvp, that's one of the hardest ways of playing the matchup, but it's certainly good when you have it down. It's very tight though, you really have to balance ling production vs drone production. I think you will win (significantly) more games out of your first 500 zvps if you instead do a overpool into 3 hatch (on 3 base) hydra into either allin or 5-6 hatch hydra, but that'd also make you a more one-dimensional player. zvz I'm pretty clueless on.  | ||
GTR
51647 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8904 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
On May 26 2017 10:08 Ryzel wrote: Hi! Noobie Zerg player here. I wanted to start trying to git gud by choosing one build order per match up and sticking with them while developing my macro and game skill. I wanted build orders that started out with the potential for aggression and punishing 14CC/14Nex/12 Hatch, but also have a reasonable ability to transition to macro (even if at a slight disadvantage). I want to be active early game and keep the enemy on their toes. After looking through liquipedia I decided these looked best for me... ZvZ - Overpool to 2 hatch muta ZvT - Overpool to 3 hatch muta to lurker ZvP - Overpool to 3 base spire to 5 hatch Hydra Are these viable at all, or are they stupid? Are there any different builds recommended that start as the aggressor yet maintain decent macro transitions? TYVM in advance! Does no one read the posts anymore? He asks about how to open up to prevent greedy builds and he gets a 12 hatch recommendation? For your goal, I think your chosen builds are fine. I am not 100% sure, if overpool is an autowin vs 12 hatch in ZvZ but it should be advantageous. In ZvP, if the map is big, P can still go 11 Nexus first with a good wall vs Overpool, but this doesn't work on Fighting Spirit or Circuit Breaker. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
Overpool however isn't a very good build in ZvZ, and there's no way for you to state that you intend on going 2 hatch muta afterwards. ZvZ games are much more constricting than other match-ups. If you want to be aggressive, go for a 9 Pool speed. I would not recommend this to you however as 9 Pool is in my opinion one of the hardest builds to consistently win with. You really need a lot of game experience to play 9 Pool effectively in all situations. This is much less the case for a build like 12 Pool due to the fact that it has 2 hatcheries from the start and is also safe against essentially all cheeses (any super early pool). | ||
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Ryzel
United States554 Posts
When I mentioned Overpool into a 2nd hatch for ZvZ I was referring to the build on this page (Branch II) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerg_vs._Zerg_Guide From the way it's described, it seems like gets mutas about the same time as 9 pool while having a muta timing advantage over 12 pool and punishing 12 hatch AND can get a 2nd hatch up. Is this not actually viable? Because I noticed it's different from the actual Overpool v. Z page here http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Overpool_(vs._Zerg) Although it also mentions getting 2nd hatch after muta spawn. Should I do this one instead? | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
Edit: I also noticed that the ZvZ article describes only Lair openings which is kinda weird? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28864 Posts
On May 26 2017 19:08 Cryoc wrote: Does no one read the posts anymore? He asks about how to open up to prevent greedy builds and he gets a 12 hatch recommendation? For your goal, I think your chosen builds are fine. I am not 100% sure, if overpool is an autowin vs 12 hatch in ZvZ but it should be advantageous. In ZvP, if the map is big, P can still go 11 Nexus first with a good wall vs Overpool, but this doesn't work on Fighting Spirit or Circuit Breaker. My experience is that literally nobody below a- iccup opens with 14cc tvz. It's 80-90% 1 rax cc, the other 10-20% split between 2 rax, 1 rax gas and proxy rax. So a newbie choosing a build to punish 14cc makes no sense because he's never gonna face it, and if he faces it, he's probably gonna be so outskilled that he loses despite the BO win. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
On May 26 2017 22:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: My experience is that literally nobody below a- iccup opens with 14cc tvz. It's 80-90% 1 rax cc, the other 10-20% split between 2 rax, 1 rax gas and proxy rax. So a newbie choosing a build to punish 14cc makes no sense because he's never gonna face it, and if he faces it, he's probably gonna be so outskilled that he loses despite the BO win. That might be the case, but you never actually answered his question, if those builds are good vs greedy openings, only "go 12 Hatch ZvT". How does that help a new player? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28864 Posts
But I think that overall pool first builds are much worse than hatch first zvt, and I don't think punishing greedy builds should be a priority. If you want to play more aggressive and lower economy games then it's better to focus on 2 hatch rather than 3 hatch builds than to focus on pool before hatch. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On May 19 2017 14:13 Dazed_Spy wrote: Could I get a firmer answer on this than the one I got? Dude said you look at the 3 hatch timing relative to ur cc, but how far long ought it be?How many drones do I have to kill with an 8 rax in order to transition 1 rax cc, while being even with the zerg at least? | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On May 27 2017 04:34 Dazed_Spy wrote: Could I get a firmer answer on this than the one I got? Dude said you look at the 3 hatch timing relative to ur cc, but how far long ought it be? You can't get a firm answer because it's situational. How many SCVs did you pull, how many lings and sunkens did he make? How many SCVs did you lose, and how long were the ones you pulled not mining? Did you have to prepare defense for a ling counter? Etc. | ||
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Highgamer
1470 Posts
On May 27 2017 04:34 Dazed_Spy wrote: Could I get a firmer answer on this than the one I got? Dude said you look at the 3 hatch timing relative to ur cc, but how far long ought it be? As Sero wrote, it's really hard to get it down to certain numbers, like how many drones vs how many SCVs, because Zerg has the larva mechanic and can also vary his build-order manyfold in this early stage of the game. There's no other way than knowing by heart yourself what you expect to see from Zerg at different points in time and to make a good guess by combining several parameters (drone-count, unit-count, tech-stage). If you've lost all the marines and several SCVs that you pulled without killing more than 2-3 drones you generally know that it's over or last-stand-scenario. And if you have killed as many or more drones and have enough SCVs safe at home to keep building your stuff fluidly, then you should play on no matter what, especially if Zerg over-produced lings. When you see a chance, get safe and stabilize until you can pick up your usual build-order-progression that would normally start somewhere around 16-20 supply depending on your marine-leftovers (CC, depot, 2nd rax or gas, academy, ebay, more barracks, for example, while constantly SCVs and enough depots). I don't know if the +1 4/5rax-bulid is a good option in this situation as it delays the academy which is a problem if Zerg has the resources to tech fast and also if he drones up more than usual. If Zerg defended your 8rax, you won't be able to see much probably, maybe you get a stray SCV into the main, then it's easier of course. Someone wrote: CC should go up shortly after 3rd hatch (if Zerg builds one), so if you're faster, it's as if you did a greedy 1rax FE. If Zerg goes 2hatch tech, his lair normally starts very shortly after your CC afaik. If he is on 3 hatch and starts his lair long before you can start your academy, that's ugh I guess (but could be alright still if his drone-count is lower than usual...). Otherwise, I'd say the only time to tell where you really stand and how you should play it out is when you have your first two scans. If you can scan twice for the first time, you should have stim on the way, 2 barracks (maybe more in the making), some marines and 1-2 medics, an ebay finishing, two mineral lines swarming with SCVs. From here on you can go full-defense if need be - or you can tech fast and make a small bio-push for map-control. Is Zerg's spire already finished? Even if you see mutas just popping you'll live if you can defend the first wave, build turrets asap. Or is it lurker? do you see hydras unmorphed/morphing? Build a bunker or two asap if you're not sure. Factory. If you see late spire/lurker tech and not too many drones, don't run into a ling-trap. Look out for an absurd amount of drones, too, normally the mineral-lines shouldn't be completely stacked. If they are, expect a flood of units after you move out. Try to make way for an SCV-scout looking for a fast 3rd base if you haven't already. | ||
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