EPTBut i think the biggest problem is dweb duration is short, small AoE and mana cost is 125
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ortseam
996 Posts
But i think the biggest problem is dweb duration is short, small AoE and mana cost is 125 | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
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Moopower
128 Posts
On May 13 2017 20:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: I've argued, for years, that everyone should use queens all the time in both zvt and zvp.  Ensnare is legitimately a great spell. But implementing queens into your play really takes quite some adjustment - you can't hotkey them together with the rest of your army, so you somehow need to make room for them. Personally, I hotkey queens and overlords for dropping to 9 and 0, but sacrificing a hotkey actually is kind of a big deal.As for the sairs; firstly, asking for an argument for why something is ineffective other than too apm intensive is kinda weird, because something being too apm intensive is a really valid argument against it. You need to weight what you do against what you sacrifice. The thing most protoss players do too little of in pvz is dropping in conjunction with corsairs; sairs clear out overlords and scourge so shuttles have a clear path, shuttles drop zealots and dts in main and expansions to pick off tech and hatches, and templars drop to storm mineral lines. But aside from that, I'll address a couple of your points. Dweb is not really effective as a defense against cracklings. It's great with reavers against hydras, but it doesn't last very long, doesn't cover that large of an area (if you could just throw one above a nexus like you can with a dark swarm, that'd totally work, but you need at least 4), and the unit fighting against the cracklings becomes equally unable to shoot. If you already have templars in the expansion, you're much, much better off just throwing down storm immediately than you are throwing down dweb. Secondly, the point about dweb working best in conjunction with goons is a very valid argument against them, because goons become somewhat obsolete once dark swarm is in play. So, for the offensive dweb strat to work, it largely has to be a mid-game strategy, before defiler crackling becomes the zerg army of choice. Like I've said though, I do genuinely think that against some zergs, on a map like fighting spirit, where the zerg takes 4 bases fast, turtles up and temporarily disregards army for tech and economy, and where protoss normally counters by expanding themselves, getting dweb and a big goon+templar army is good. I have had success with that. But those perfect scenarios where it all lines up don't really happen that often. Game is chaotic as hell. I'm not saying to go out of your way to use dweb and focus all your apm on it, I'm saying look if you have the money and you have the corsairs, why not just spend a few extra minerals and gas to tech fleet beacon and get the research to get an extra spell if you had the capacity and opportunity to use it? You're not really losing out on much when both pro gamers are maxed and are just expoing the entire map and planting more hatcheries/gateways,etc. By getting the tech upgrade, you can potentially exploit a weakness in zerg's defense and I think using dweb even with a majority zealot/archon ht reaver army can still be potentially beneficial. An argument against dragoons is like saying a unit gets countered therefore don't use it. Zerg has access to lings all game, yet protoss still gets dragoons, why? because obviously they need them to combat lurkers and fight sim city buildings. Despite their weakness, protoss still utilize them, so an argument against dweb when it's not like forcing you to forgo your main army isn't much of an argument against dweb research, because again you get it because you have extra money to spend. This is all based on the fact that it's ONLY AN OPTION, not something you have to forgo other things to do, other than your apm. Which I think is not taking away too much from someone who can macro and multitask. Is it better to try to do a lot of things at once really quickly? Or would it be more beneficial to win a crucial fight? I see your point about harassment and that protoss should utilize their apm towards that as well, and that is one way to reach the goal of eventually beating your opponent by whittling down their resources and crippling their army production as a result. However I think progamers have gotten very good at responding to such harassment, it's been very difficult to make it really cost effective for the protoss to commit to the harass. I'm not saying protoss progamers shouldn't harass, but to say that protoss should harass instead of doing a dweb siege 90% of the time is better I think it is not necessarily the case. I'm not a progamer, but from what I see in the match up, protoss harassment rarely determines the outcome of the game imo. It's not like in bisu's day where zerg gets totally caught off guard and loses a huge advantage because of it. Zergs can get harassed and get their economy slowed for sure, but it almost never brings it to a significant amount of a level where a successful siege does to kill an expo. Killing an expo is much more of a loss than killing some drones. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On May 13 2017 20:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: I've argued, for years, that everyone should use queens all the time in both zvt and zvp. Ensnare is legitimately a great spell. But implementing queens into your play really takes quite some adjustment - you can't hotkey them together with the rest of your army, so you somehow need to make room for them. Personally, I hotkey queens and overlords for dropping to 9 and 0, but sacrificing a hotkey actually is kind of a big deal.Would it be possible/practical to incorporate queens into the muta harass in zvt? The queen's nest builds really fast, so you could start it late and still get a queen with/soon after your initial group of mutas. Then the ensnare would make it really easy to dodge big groups of marines, or maybe even go toe-to-toe with them since it completely negates the attack boost of stim. | ||
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Jealous
10261 Posts
On May 14 2017 14:03 Luddite wrote: Would it be possible/practical to incorporate queens into the muta harass in zvt? The queen's nest builds really fast, so you could start it late and still get a queen with/soon after your initial group of mutas. Then the ensnare would make it really easy to dodge big groups of marines, or maybe even go toe-to-toe with them since it completely negates the attack boost of stim. I feel like by the time you have a Queen's Nest, a Queen with energy, and the Ensnare upgrade, you should already be getting ready to start Consume/Defilers. I'd have to look up the timings to be sure but aren't Zergs kinda pressed for gas at this juncture? This is tangentially relevant: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/10749_FanTaSy_vs_Jaedong/vod | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28736 Posts
during the muta harass phase you need all the gas. But later on, swapping two lurkers for one queen with ensnare really makes a positive difference when fighting m&m. Back in the day I'd sometimes do a 2 hatch muta where I added a queen and went straight for the CC steal (get 20 mutas with +1 and 1 queen ASAP, attack cc, 4 rounds of attacks brings it down to 750, then the infest happens), but I don't think that could work against modern day terrans at all. ;p | ||
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Jealous
10261 Posts
On May 14 2017 21:58 Liquid`Drone wrote: naw queens have no place in the muta harass. The main thing with ensnare is that it synergizes perfectly with lurker/ling against m&m. Like say terran has 12 marines 4 medics, you have 3 lurker 12 ling. If you as zerg attacks him, and the terran microes well and doesn't get cornered, he's never gonna lose that fight. He fights the lings, targets lurkers while burrowing, and retreats. But if you throw down an ensnare on those rines, then a 3 lurker 12 ling force will kill them all. And it becomes even better with dark swarm (then terran depends even more on running away), and it becomes better in larger battles. during the muta harass phase you need all the gas. But later on, swapping two lurkers for one queen with ensnare really makes a positive difference when fighting m&m. Back in the day I'd sometimes do a 2 hatch muta where I added a queen and went straight for the CC steal (get 20 mutas with +1 and 1 queen ASAP, attack cc, 4 rounds of attacks brings it down to 750, then the infest happens), but I don't think that could work against modern day terrans at all. ;p Relevant to the last paragraph: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/44893_Jaedong_vs_Light/vod | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On May 14 2017 21:58 Liquid`Drone wrote: Back in the day I'd sometimes do a 2 hatch muta where I added a queen and went straight for the CC steal (get 20 mutas with +1 and 1 queen ASAP, attack cc, 4 rounds of attacks brings it down to 750, then the infest happens), but I don't think that could work against modern day terrans at all. ;p Ha! that sounds hilarious, I'll have to try that. Even if it would never work at the pro level, it might work against the low-level people I'm playing. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28736 Posts
From a nationwar against the USA in like 2005. xD Guess the replay doesn't work though.  | ||
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Jealous
10261 Posts
On May 15 2017 05:09 Luddite wrote: Ha! that sounds hilarious, I'll have to try that. Even if it would never work at the pro level, it might work against the low-level people I'm playing. ... I linked the Light vs. Jaedong game for a reason. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On May 15 2017 07:28 Jealous wrote: ... I linked the Light vs. Jaedong game for a reason. I watched it. It doesn't seem like what Drone was describing, or at least not how i'm imagining it. It wasn't a "snipe" in that game. Light went full mechanic while Jaedong took 4 gasses and pumped out huge numbers of mutas, then they went beast mode on each other. The queens at the end were cute but they seemed irrelevant since Jeadong had already won the important battles. I was hoping for something "cheesier". | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28736 Posts
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
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alexpnd
Canada1857 Posts
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Jealous
10261 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8788 Posts
On May 17 2017 03:26 Glioburd wrote: A korean called a friend "Jot bob". We tried to find what does that mean, we found some results related to broodwar. Someone know what does that mean ? i think you mean jotbab (좆밥). its an offensive way of calling someone noob, shit, worthless, ez etc. its a swear word but its more often used between friends rather than to actually offend someone | ||
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ihcob
23 Posts
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
On May 17 2017 13:57 evilfatsh1t wrote: i think you mean jotbab (좆밥). its an offensive way of calling someone noob, shit, worthless, ez etc. its a swear word but its more often used between friends rather than to actually offend someone Thanks | ||
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
On May 17 2017 04:52 alexpnd wrote: Is it safe to 5 fac after reaver opening? Seems my tanks get pummeled. You need to give more information to get useful answers. Is it safe to build 5 facs with turrets up? Yes. Do you want to push with it and deny a third base? That will probably be not very successful, if P didn't lose the reaver and shuttle. | ||
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ihcob
23 Posts
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