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Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 133

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Terranist
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2496 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-04 01:24:45
April 04 2013 01:24 GMT
#2641
oops wrong thread
The Show of a Lifetime
traceurling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1240 Posts
April 04 2013 01:28 GMT
#2642
On April 04 2013 10:11 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2013 09:13 traceurling wrote:
On April 04 2013 05:35 thezanursic wrote:
On April 04 2013 05:14 Sayle wrote:
On April 04 2013 04:58 thezanursic wrote:
On April 03 2013 18:08 Sayle wrote:
What's the point of a 5 player map though, the game dynamic would be almost the same as a 4 player map except that there's more randomness in scouting your opponent's spawn.

Edit: For 1v1 at least.

If the same was said for any other map feature. BW would have gotten stale years ago. I am pretty sure that a resonably balanced 5,6 player 1v1 map is within the limits of possibility and if so I just don't see why it wasn't attempted. I mean yes, it doesnt add that much to the game, but it's still worth a try.


My point is that if you consider what makes 2, 3, and 4-player maps unique from each other, there is actually quite a lot that has big impacts on gameplay, but the difference between a 5-player map and 4-player map is minimal. The only real difference is that you can't split the map perfectly, but adding a central base like FS does solves that problem much more neatly. Especially when you consider how difficult it must be to create a balanced 5 or 6 player map with equal rush distances between bases, that's probably why nobody has bothered with it.

Having said that, there is no strict rule saying you must have equal distances between spawns. Gaia, for example, even now shows up in motw occasionally and gets played. I can't imagine that kind of thing would be too popular among players with the current metagame though.

I understand the above, but it kind of seems like KESPA has tried almost everything over the BWs professional life span, but 5 or 6 spawn 1v1 maps just weren't one of those.

So for the current metagame you're gonna new essentially a main and a natural, so take spawn locations and multiply by two. That leaves you with 10 based for a 5 player map, and 12 for a 6 player maps. In terms of space, mains require quite a but of space, so pretending the other mains are just thirds doesn't quite workout out cz now you don't have room for a third because not enough room analog you risk having too much money on a map. Sorry I had a more well thought out answer but my browser crashed and I didn't want to retype all of it.

More macro oriented games due to harder to find spawns. Naturals are generally easier to defend as thirds. Quite frankly, no one enjoys watching a game where players pick at each other's defense.

It's like Hive ZvZs, I like seeing them every once in a while but definitely not 20% of the time...it can be cool to see players show their skills at endurance and playing the waiting game, just not too frequently
"Appreciate the things you have before they become the things you had."
BroodKingEXE
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States829 Posts
April 04 2013 03:20 GMT
#2643
On April 04 2013 10:28 traceurling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2013 10:11 BroodKingEXE wrote:
On April 04 2013 09:13 traceurling wrote:
On April 04 2013 05:35 thezanursic wrote:
On April 04 2013 05:14 Sayle wrote:
On April 04 2013 04:58 thezanursic wrote:
On April 03 2013 18:08 Sayle wrote:
What's the point of a 5 player map though, the game dynamic would be almost the same as a 4 player map except that there's more randomness in scouting your opponent's spawn.

Edit: For 1v1 at least.

If the same was said for any other map feature. BW would have gotten stale years ago. I am pretty sure that a resonably balanced 5,6 player 1v1 map is within the limits of possibility and if so I just don't see why it wasn't attempted. I mean yes, it doesnt add that much to the game, but it's still worth a try.


My point is that if you consider what makes 2, 3, and 4-player maps unique from each other, there is actually quite a lot that has big impacts on gameplay, but the difference between a 5-player map and 4-player map is minimal. The only real difference is that you can't split the map perfectly, but adding a central base like FS does solves that problem much more neatly. Especially when you consider how difficult it must be to create a balanced 5 or 6 player map with equal rush distances between bases, that's probably why nobody has bothered with it.

Having said that, there is no strict rule saying you must have equal distances between spawns. Gaia, for example, even now shows up in motw occasionally and gets played. I can't imagine that kind of thing would be too popular among players with the current metagame though.

I understand the above, but it kind of seems like KESPA has tried almost everything over the BWs professional life span, but 5 or 6 spawn 1v1 maps just weren't one of those.

So for the current metagame you're gonna new essentially a main and a natural, so take spawn locations and multiply by two. That leaves you with 10 based for a 5 player map, and 12 for a 6 player maps. In terms of space, mains require quite a but of space, so pretending the other mains are just thirds doesn't quite workout out cz now you don't have room for a third because not enough room analog you risk having too much money on a map. Sorry I had a more well thought out answer but my browser crashed and I didn't want to retype all of it.

More macro oriented games due to harder to find spawns. Naturals are generally easier to defend as thirds. Quite frankly, no one enjoys watching a game where players pick at each other's defense.

It's like Hive ZvZs, I like seeing them every once in a while but definitely not 20% of the time...it can be cool to see players show their skills at endurance and playing the waiting game, just not too frequently

Well ZvZ isn't what was thinking of. I was thinking of the implications of mech terran at defending. It'd would be ridiculous to be able to defend 6 bases pretty easily.
Playing Protoss = Opponent owned
traceurling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1240 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-04 05:57:13
April 04 2013 03:53 GMT
#2644
On April 04 2013 12:20 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2013 10:28 traceurling wrote:
On April 04 2013 10:11 BroodKingEXE wrote:
On April 04 2013 09:13 traceurling wrote:
On April 04 2013 05:35 thezanursic wrote:
On April 04 2013 05:14 Sayle wrote:
On April 04 2013 04:58 thezanursic wrote:
On April 03 2013 18:08 Sayle wrote:
What's the point of a 5 player map though, the game dynamic would be almost the same as a 4 player map except that there's more randomness in scouting your opponent's spawn.

Edit: For 1v1 at least.

If the same was said for any other map feature. BW would have gotten stale years ago. I am pretty sure that a resonably balanced 5,6 player 1v1 map is within the limits of possibility and if so I just don't see why it wasn't attempted. I mean yes, it doesnt add that much to the game, but it's still worth a try.


My point is that if you consider what makes 2, 3, and 4-player maps unique from each other, there is actually quite a lot that has big impacts on gameplay, but the difference between a 5-player map and 4-player map is minimal. The only real difference is that you can't split the map perfectly, but adding a central base like FS does solves that problem much more neatly. Especially when you consider how difficult it must be to create a balanced 5 or 6 player map with equal rush distances between bases, that's probably why nobody has bothered with it.

Having said that, there is no strict rule saying you must have equal distances between spawns. Gaia, for example, even now shows up in motw occasionally and gets played. I can't imagine that kind of thing would be too popular among players with the current metagame though.

I understand the above, but it kind of seems like KESPA has tried almost everything over the BWs professional life span, but 5 or 6 spawn 1v1 maps just weren't one of those.

So for the current metagame you're gonna new essentially a main and a natural, so take spawn locations and multiply by two. That leaves you with 10 based for a 5 player map, and 12 for a 6 player maps. In terms of space, mains require quite a but of space, so pretending the other mains are just thirds doesn't quite workout out cz now you don't have room for a third because not enough room analog you risk having too much money on a map. Sorry I had a more well thought out answer but my browser crashed and I didn't want to retype all of it.

More macro oriented games due to harder to find spawns. Naturals are generally easier to defend as thirds. Quite frankly, no one enjoys watching a game where players pick at each other's defense.

It's like Hive ZvZs, I like seeing them every once in a while but definitely not 20% of the time...it can be cool to see players show their skills at endurance and playing the waiting game, just not too frequently

Well ZvZ isn't what was thinking of. I was thinking of the implications of mech terran at defending. It'd would be ridiculous to be able to defend 6 bases pretty easily.

I was making a comparison
But eh...depends on map layout of course...if Terran forces get too divided defending three or four bases...all depends on how the mapmaker makes the map...

When going 12 Pool into 2 Hatch Muta, is it possible to do speedling harass without delaying your mutas?
"Appreciate the things you have before they become the things you had."
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5478 Posts
April 04 2013 08:46 GMT
#2645
On April 04 2013 09:13 traceurling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2013 05:35 thezanursic wrote:
On April 04 2013 05:14 Sayle wrote:
On April 04 2013 04:58 thezanursic wrote:
On April 03 2013 18:08 Sayle wrote:
What's the point of a 5 player map though, the game dynamic would be almost the same as a 4 player map except that there's more randomness in scouting your opponent's spawn.

Edit: For 1v1 at least.

If the same was said for any other map feature. BW would have gotten stale years ago. I am pretty sure that a resonably balanced 5,6 player 1v1 map is within the limits of possibility and if so I just don't see why it wasn't attempted. I mean yes, it doesnt add that much to the game, but it's still worth a try.


My point is that if you consider what makes 2, 3, and 4-player maps unique from each other, there is actually quite a lot that has big impacts on gameplay, but the difference between a 5-player map and 4-player map is minimal. The only real difference is that you can't split the map perfectly, but adding a central base like FS does solves that problem much more neatly. Especially when you consider how difficult it must be to create a balanced 5 or 6 player map with equal rush distances between bases, that's probably why nobody has bothered with it.

Having said that, there is no strict rule saying you must have equal distances between spawns. Gaia, for example, even now shows up in motw occasionally and gets played. I can't imagine that kind of thing would be too popular among players with the current metagame though.

I understand the above, but it kind of seems like KESPA has tried almost everything over the BWs professional life span, but 5 or 6 spawn 1v1 maps just weren't one of those.

So for the current metagame you're gonna new essentially a main and a natural, so take spawn locations and multiply by two. That leaves you with 10 based for a 5 player map, and 12 for a 6 player maps. In terms of space, mains require quite a but of space, so pretending the other mains are just thirds doesn't quite workout out cz now you don't have room for a third because not enough room analog you risk having too much money on a map. Sorry I had a more well thought out answer but my browser crashed and I didn't want to retype all of it.


Maybe Main + Nat + 1 mineral only = 15 bases now that's a lot, but experimentation never hurts.
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
April 04 2013 09:22 GMT
#2646
On April 04 2013 07:00 BroodKingEXE wrote:
What is the ideal spot to drop a reaver? I try to get it in the back of a mineral line, but it feels as if I could get more damage.


I'm going to show you a cool trick.

To maximize the damage caused by scarabs, you always want them to path directly into the unit you're attacking. If the unit you're attacking is separated by minerals or is running away, the scarabs will not do very much damage. If you drop directly into the mineral line, it can be a lot more effective than dropping behind the mineral lines.

Note! Dropping behind the mineral lines is great for many other types of drops, such as high templar, marines, lurkers, etc., but the way scarabs work give them a uniqueness that can be a pain in the ass.

Now, here is a concept that you can play around with: if your opponent has decent reaction time, he/she will see the reaver and go "Oh, I don't want to lose all my workers, so I will pull them away." and maynard them to another mineral field. If you anticipate this, it can potentially yield way more damage for your drop. The idea is to basically drop your reaver in the retreat path of the workers so they will have no choice but to DIE.

Here,
[image loading]

Ignore that enormous splash of blood for a moment. That's not important right now. The important thing is that the reaver is at the bottom of the mineral field, so if the drones want to escape, they have to go south towards the ramp, or clump up near the extractor. If they do either of these, it means you will kill a lot of drones.


Another example of this would be to fly over the natural (maybe drop a zealot into the minerals), but drop the reaver at the top of the ramp.

[image loading]

Even if the drones don't go up the ramp, you still are able to deny small reinforcements coming up the ramp, and on top of that, you can fly to the main base' mineral field to drop there. If the zerg pulls their drones from the natural AND loses a lot at their main, then they will lose a lot of potential harvesting time.

Here is a chart of how to shoot your scarabs at things:
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

Targets moving towards the scarab shot will get hit.

Targets moving sideways might get away like the cowards they are.

Targets moving away from the shot will almost certainly live to work against Aiur.




"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19225 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-04 14:29:18
April 04 2013 13:25 GMT
#2647
edit: NVM answered elsewhere.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
traceurling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1240 Posts
April 04 2013 17:20 GMT
#2648
Two questions about Python;
1.) How does Terran deal vs a 2 Hatch Muta
2.) Bisu and liquipedia both say that 2 Gate is strong on this map; what makes 2 Gate a solid opening for this map?
"Appreciate the things you have before they become the things you had."
sabas123
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands3122 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-04 18:25:17
April 04 2013 18:24 GMT
#2649
On April 05 2013 02:20 traceurling wrote:2.) Bisu and liquipedia both say that 2 Gate is strong on this map; what makes 2 Gate a solid opening for this map?

posabilty of close spawns and wide natrual
The harder it becomes, the more you should focus on the basics.
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5478 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-04 20:59:21
April 04 2013 20:58 GMT
#2650
On April 04 2013 18:22 ninazerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2013 07:00 BroodKingEXE wrote:
What is the ideal spot to drop a reaver? I try to get it in the back of a mineral line, but it feels as if I could get more damage.


I'm going to show you a cool trick.

To maximize the damage caused by scarabs, you always want them to path directly into the unit you're attacking. If the unit you're attacking is separated by minerals or is running away, the scarabs will not do very much damage. If you drop directly into the mineral line, it can be a lot more effective than dropping behind the mineral lines.

Note! Dropping behind the mineral lines is great for many other types of drops, such as high templar, marines, lurkers, etc., but the way scarabs work give them a uniqueness that can be a pain in the ass.

Now, here is a concept that you can play around with: if your opponent has decent reaction time, he/she will see the reaver and go "Oh, I don't want to lose all my workers, so I will pull them away." and maynard them to another mineral field. If you anticipate this, it can potentially yield way more damage for your drop. The idea is to basically drop your reaver in the retreat path of the workers so they will have no choice but to DIE.

Here,
[image loading]

Ignore that enormous splash of blood for a moment. That's not important right now. The important thing is that the reaver is at the bottom of the mineral field, so if the drones want to escape, they have to go south towards the ramp, or clump up near the extractor. If they do either of these, it means you will kill a lot of drones.


Another example of this would be to fly over the natural (maybe drop a zealot into the minerals), but drop the reaver at the top of the ramp.

[image loading]

Even if the drones don't go up the ramp, you still are able to deny small reinforcements coming up the ramp, and on top of that, you can fly to the main base' mineral field to drop there. If the zerg pulls their drones from the natural AND loses a lot at their main, then they will lose a lot of potential harvesting time.

Here is a chart of how to shoot your scarabs at things:
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

Targets moving towards the scarab shot will get hit.

Targets moving sideways might get away like the cowards they are.

Targets moving away from the shot will almost certainly live to work against Aiur.






I always wondered why people don't do this more often. I am also curious if it's worth it moving the reaver and delaying so that the reaver shoots just as the workers are transfering through him or will most people see what you are doing and react?
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
April 04 2013 21:04 GMT
#2651
usually people run the drones in the opposite direction instead of trying to transfer
it's still a good place to drop tho since the drones will bug out a little when they try to run without drilling
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
April 05 2013 02:39 GMT
#2652
On April 05 2013 06:04 Dead9 wrote:
usually people run the drones in the opposite direction instead of trying to transfer
it's still a good place to drop tho since the drones will bug out a little when they try to run without drilling


Usually, they stack them on the closest geyser to pull the them away, but I notice that a lot of Terrans will only transfer them. Zergs, on the other hand, can just burrow if they know a reaver is coming.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5478 Posts
April 05 2013 05:23 GMT
#2653
On April 05 2013 06:04 Dead9 wrote:
usually people run the drones in the opposite direction instead of trying to transfer
it's still a good place to drop tho since the drones will bug out a little when they try to run without drilling

If they don't transfer to a near by mineral/gas their workers will bug out anyway and the scarab will most likely hit.
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3126 Posts
April 05 2013 07:49 GMT
#2654
Close position spawns on python is hard vs fast muta builds. I don't know man I guess it favors zerg. I'm not sure if there is some special way to deal with it. You could build a bunker at your nat in a place that blocks mutas. The natural of python is easier to defend than the natural of FS.
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
quirinus
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Croatia2489 Posts
April 05 2013 18:21 GMT
#2655
Does anyone know where wLauncher stores the StarCraft.exe path or how it launches it?
All candles lit within him, and there was purity. | First auto-promoted BW LP editor.
BroodKingEXE
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States829 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-05 22:59:13
April 05 2013 22:58 GMT
#2656
Is there a korean equivalent of TL.net (in terms of strategy)?
Playing Protoss = Opponent owned
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
April 05 2013 23:17 GMT
#2657
On April 06 2013 07:58 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Is there a korean equivalent of TL.net (in terms of strategy)?


They literally just walk up to another Korean and say "Hey, I'm having a really hard time defending against 2 fact openings, what should I do?" and the other Korean is like "Practice better unit control" BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY ALWAYS FUCKING SAY NO MATTER WHAT.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
April 05 2013 23:23 GMT
#2658
On April 06 2013 03:21 quirinus wrote:
Does anyone know where wLauncher stores the StarCraft.exe path or how it launches it?


This tab handles all the gateways, exes, etc.
[image loading]

Click the 찾 기 button to search for the starcraft.exe

I hope that helps, if not, I'm stumped.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
sabas123
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands3122 Posts
April 06 2013 19:45 GMT
#2659
On April 06 2013 07:58 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Is there a korean equivalent of TL.net (in terms of strategy)?

i don't really think so, there might be like vods with compertary shared on sites like neaver and cafe daum thou.
The harder it becomes, the more you should focus on the basics.
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
April 06 2013 20:39 GMT
#2660
On April 07 2013 04:45 sabas123 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2013 07:58 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Is there a korean equivalent of TL.net (in terms of strategy)?

i don't really think so, there might be like vods with compertary shared on sites like neaver and cafe daum thou.

I've talked to a Korean caster/BJ about it and other than the fishbattle.net forum, there doesn't appear to be any more forums left. I believe playxp used to have a Starcraft 1 section but it's all sc2, LoL, and D3 now. He said people just use afreeca and fish to communicate for the most part.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
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