EPTBlood bath builds TvP - Page 2
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
WhizKid77
China682 Posts
| ||
|
CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2646 Posts
 My 1 gate forge cannon rush was taken down by 3 marines plus scv's, but with some scv casulties from my lots. I swapped into 2 gate goons (Very weak spot here, a few marines could have finished me off since I didn't build a cannon) and attacked again with 2 slots and 2 goons. The marines died and there were substantiual scv losses before the tank popped out and finished off the goons. (Enemy had fast teched to factory.) I waited for a bit and attacked again with 4 ranged goons, easly killing the tank and winning the game. Moral of the story: You can hold the rush, but either follow up directly or BUNKER up at your "chocke" untill you get tanks with siege. Don't forget to get turrets or scan or mines. Just survive the rush and then either a) rush aggresivly or b) turtle like hell. | ||
|
ZZZnachor
Poland200 Posts
On December 23 2004 15:46 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: While on the topic: Is there any way to really win vs toss when your zerg? I tried 5 pool and that didn't help. I haven't tried 4 pool, it migth be fast enough but on the other hand they see it coming from miles away. I can win vs idiot tosses who goes fast forge because then I just get another hatch and power like crazy untill I have lurkers. (Still pool before the hatch tho.) I wasn't plaing on bb many times, but i make a 9pool (gas to 100 and speed) haras and hath in protos main, but in place he can't see (best) but from 2 gateways when u haras good (make non stop lings, no drones) u mat be able to bild hathery even when he cnows about it, but i am not sure on this. | ||
|
ZZZnachor
Poland200 Posts
On December 23 2004 15:47 SCFraser wrote: ya if you scout zeal cannon u have to 2 racks, but id still bunk by cc to defend against the 1st zeal, not have to take scvs off mins to defend. and if u try to zeal/cannon vs 2 racks ill rape u with rine/scv. Try me ^^ whats the standard b/o for zeal cannon ive never done it.. must be pylon, gate forge pylon cannon while pumping zeals? ur gonna end up with 2/3 zeal vs 5 rine and 10 scv, so.. ur not gonna get a cannon in. Yeah if u go 2baraks i am tolking about bunker in mineral line and tech. If u go 2barak best i can do is 2gate, forge for def. And tech fast to templar i gues it is beter then reaver. | ||
|
8882
2718 Posts
I used to go 6pool-ling harass, sunken, hydra den, fast speed if he went cannons just power a bit and make range, kill what you can and power more, maybe tech to lurkers generally some sort of 9pool->sunk->hydra harass is good too if he goes cannons you should be happy, hydras with range upgrade work good against them the only problem is a smart toss which expects your bo and makes some sort of zeal->cannon->fast HT/reaver, because it is very hard to dodge storms you need to harass well with lings/hydras | ||
|
HULKAMANIA
United States1219 Posts
You may have an issue with a Vanilla player dishing out advice on a BroodWar strategy forum, but let me let you in on a little secret about the Bath, the early game is exactly the same for both the original and the expansion. Early game on Bloodbath involves minimal tech unless you happen to find yourself in a TvT. But if at any point you feel the additional units of BW would nullify the effectiveness of these strategys, feel free to discard them - or come back to Vanilla and tell them Hulk sent you. The matchups you're all discussing do happen to be the stickiest ones, too. So I'll get down to brass tacks here and share some successful gems of strategy for each one. The golden rule of Bloodbath is that you can't cheat. You can't go early expo, you can't go early tech, you can't even attempt to cheese your way into a win against a competent player. You have to play heads-up and execute airtight micro and you have to earn your tech. You also have to know exactly what your opponent is doing, but this is Bloodbath after all - recon isn't hard. TvP The matchup that spawned this thread was TvP @ BB so I'll start there. My TvR and TvP builds are identical, so there is no issue there. 9 - Rax 9 - Depot 10 - Rax Build tightly enough that your buildings provide cover against zealots, but do not build so tightly that you have a hard time mobilizing against your opponent when the time comes for an attack. Most importantly do not expose any supply depots. Make sure you can cover them from harassment be it of the ling or zeal variety. The point of this 9 rax build is to be strong enough economically to allow you to keep up with a protoss player (admittedly you'll be slightly behind but the center-advantage of Terran on BB will make up for it), and to simultaneously enable you to punish the protoss if he gets too greedy with your 2 available raxes. Obviously timing and recon are important. Just remember you're protecting your passage to mid-game where the scales will tip back in your favor while remaining powerful enough to pose a threat to him early-game. You have to keep him on a tight leash and then choke him to death when the time comes. The fact of the matter is that, all things being equal, a 1-base Terran with a strong enough economy who has earned his tech will generally be in a position to wail on a 1-base Protoss in a similar stage of economic and technological development. The Terran can hold the center of the map like a pitbull. The general thrust of your Terran vs. Protoss early game should be to put you in a position whereby you can make the above scenario happen. To do this you must be ready to counter any schemes that bastard protoss has cooked up early game. Generally, you will see a toss assume 3 dispositions: Hardcore Zealot Harassment This is simply a 2 gate/3 gate zeal pump. A good toss will try to stay in your base as long as possible and pound on you until you're so turtled up your scvs have to pass a good four or five bunkers on their way back to the command center. At this point his ranged goons will have arrived and you'll have absolutely no place to put your fac. His dragoons will rape you all to hell, you'll type "lol this map sux," and then exit the game. We've all been there. It's a sad saga. In order to counter a 2 gate zeals with 2 rax rines (going more than 2 raxes is asking to get raped imho but I don't have time to explain here), you have to take your choke with a bunker. I repeat: take your choke with the bunker. You cannot be cost effective with a bunker in preventing harassment unless it is at your choke. You'll have to take your choke pretty early in the matchup, right as your 2 rax has kicked into gear and before his zeals start rolling out full-steam. From here you are on your way to being able to dominate the center. Pump rines as needed, keep your recon up, prioritize scv production, and prepare rumble into the center when your factory tech kicks in. Things to watch for: 1) A Protoss who drops everything and starts teching as soon as you take your choke. The counter to this is simple. Prioritize marine production and go rail on him with scv/rine. 2) A Protoss who expands immediately. Counter this the same way. Keep your rine pump going full-tilt and go level his main for him. He will had to skimp on zeals to expo this early. In Summary: 1) Prevent harassment by holding your choke. 2) Take the necessary steps to usurp the center. 3) Finish the Toss. The Cannon Rush The Cannon Rush comes in two varieties - retarded and less retarded. The retarded cannon rusher will be forge only, dispatch him at your leisure. The less retarded cannon rusher will hit you very early with zeals and a cannon attempt - usually aimed at your geyser. Chances are if the toss gets to your gas with a cannon, you're too far up Shit Creek to paddle your way back into the game. However, both cannon rushes die easily enough if you nip them in the bud. The counter is much the same as outlined above. If you scout a forge, wait for that critical moment when your rines (and a couple of scvs) will be able to steamroll anything he can field and take your choke with a bunker. A 1 gate 1 forge build or a 2 gate build burdened by a forge can't break you if you take your choke properly. From here the game is yours. Things to watch for: 1) A 1 gate cannon rusher who is teching hard behind his attack. This could spell early goon or fast reaver - both of which are trouble in the right hands. The counter should be familiar by now. Beef up your rine force and go ream his base. The only difference is he may have cannoned himself up at home to try to survive this and come out ahead in the tech-race. However, if your harassment is strong enough, he will have to spend too much on cannons to succeed with this strat. Use offensive bunkers to your advantage. If you wound and fluster him (or even kill him if he comitted too many sins), you're back in prime rape position come mid game. 2) A toss who cannons his own choke and then powers and techs like a madman. He shouldn't be too much of a threat. Simply power and tech in a similarly madmanesque fashion. You can send a rax over to scout, too, and then counter him accordingly. Summary: 1) Keep your eyes peeled for it early game. 2) Stop it before it starts. 3) Take the necessary steps to control the map. 4) Proceed to rape. Quick Tech The last thing you want is a well powered, well teched Protoss running around on Bloodbath with you. There are a million and one things he can do to keep you out of the center while he secures an expo or two. But don't worry; while failing to counter this build produces the most theatrically cataclysmic results, it's the easiest to counter. The 9 rax build I proffered here was created with quick techers in mind. They break the golden rule of bloodbath and it is your job to punish them. You'll find yourself very much in a situation like you were gas-capped on Temple and you're forced to counter w/ rine scv except there is no ramp for the Protoss to hide atop. All you have to do is attack him at the proper time with about 6-8 rines and as many scvs as you want to throw at him. If you don't do anything stupid, his build leaves him at your mercy. So that's a basic overview of TvP on Bloodbath. I have just realized how long this post will be if I type out my thoughts on ZvP or ZvT, but, don't worry, I can hint at them in a few words. - Go 9 pool 9 gas. - Harass like your life depends on it. - Make sure if the match enters mid-game, you're at a substantial advantage. So questions? Comments? I'll answer any BB quandaries you have here or in PM. Just make sure they doesn't involve sairs or medics or dts or other instruments of post-classical warfare. | ||
|
ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
| ||
|
ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
Hulk, vs Z or P, why wouldn't you build medics? You also don't account for DT in your vanilla builds. EDIT: You can't put a bunker at your choke, the zealots will cruise right by. | ||
|
HULKAMANIA
United States1219 Posts
On December 24 2004 00:19 ProudCappi wrote: Shorter TvP guide: SCV rush. I was attempting to tell you how to beat people other than newbies, morons, and the physically handicapped, but I guess if you're playing them exclusively an SCV rush will work most the time. On December 24 2004 00:22 ProudCappi wrote: To add to that: Hulk, vs Z or P, why wouldn't you build medics? You also don't account for DT in your vanilla builds. EDIT: You can't put a bunker at your choke, the zealots will cruise right by. I don't build medics because I play VANILLA. I don't account for dark templars in my VANILLA builds because I play VANILLA. And you couldn't be more wrong about the bunker at the choke. A bunker backed by two active raxes will rape attempts on the behalf of the protoss to run into your base. The ones which actually make it through the door fall easy prey to some fairly simple micro. | ||
|
ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
Also, show me a rep where scv rushing doesn't work. EDIT: However, thanks for writing all of that up for this thread, honestly. I just don't think it is all correct.  | ||
|
HULKAMANIA
United States1219 Posts
| ||
|
HULKAMANIA
United States1219 Posts
| ||
|
ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
| ||
|
ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
| ||
|
HULKAMANIA
United States1219 Posts
Vanilla gogo. EDIT: I did say earlier I take it most of you don't play Bloodbath very seriously. Personally, I have played more Bloodbath in my Starcraft career than any other map. It was my first love - much like Vanilla SC which I also play almost exclusively. | ||
|
ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
| ||
|
ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
| ||
|
pat777
United States356 Posts
Did you do a 4 scv rush or a 8 scv rush? An 8 scv rush is better with scouting. Use your 5th scv to scout. When you get 7/8 scvs bring them to the middle while the 5th scv scouts until you find the enemy. By the time your scvs get to the middle the 5th scv should be done scouting and you can just send them to kill the enemy. | ||
|
SCFraser
Canada1534 Posts
| ||
|
paper
13196 Posts
| ||
| ||
