SPOILER ALERT: This is a BR of the recently concluded SWL Finals, specifically Set 5 between Flash (KT) and Bisu (SKT). Results will be discussed later, so if you don't want to get spoiled, please leave now. Otherwise. let the [D] begin!
GodFlash has raped BisuAngel again and again over the past few games. But Bisu is currently in top form in this SWL. Flash is his usual self, just a bit more cocky. Bisu sees this as a chance to redeem himself and get some groove back especially for the coming MSL Group Death.
It's set 5, STK 3-1 KT. SKT wins and SWL Gold is theirs. KT wins and It goes at least 1 more set, probably for God vs Terrorist matchup. Because of the map (Aztec), SKT wisely sends Bisu to snipe Flash.
Aztec is notoriously 65% PvT, so sending Bisu made all sense. The middle and natural exit is terrible for mech as Protoss can surround them easily. Ridges in the map make is Carrier heaven, but as we all know, Bisu doesnt like Carriers. But he is very strong in this league, and he has said that he has a special build vs Flash.
Bisu goes forward early pylon gate. Bisu puts his Gate to narrow the entrance to his expo.
God goes depot-expo barracks He builds preventive gas as Bisu probe continues to harass Here is the infamous Bisu probe in action
God goes Rax-Double 2nd depot. He scouts in the wrong direction.
Seing rax-double, Bisu goes for double before core, knowing he'll be safe from early vulture harass. Is this the Flash snipe build he is talking about?
Bisu's 1st harass zealot arrives, send Flash's natural in mini-chaos After 3 zealots go rampaging on Flash's main and nat, killing marines and scvs left and right, God builds a bunker to help stop the disarray. (Note: PrTSc doesnt do justice to Bisu's micro. Please watch the VOD to see how he supermicros the zealots to chase down the marines and scvs. It's a beautiful thing.)
First vulture goes out. Meets 3 Goons. (Goon micro prevents vult from barely exiting ramp) Dies a meaningless life.
BisuAngel goes Robo/Cita. DT drop? Meanwhile, ranged Goons pound on the bunker. Flash pulls scv for repair, wasting more econ time. Seige tank arrives later, scares off goons.
Flash builds scan. Bisu build more macro Gates, Archives, and Observatory
Bisu starts 3rd. God feels strong a DT drop and obs is coming, transitions to Goliath.
Bisu, having Flash in a contain, starts 4th. 2 ninjas enter Flash's natural. Flash has no turrets. Not even Ebay.
But scan allows Flash to kill DT without taking any damage.
Flash moves out with recon vults in Bisu's nat. Sees Bisu maynarding, proceeds to 3rd instead. But goons are everywhere. 1 vult almost sees 4th, but dies before going the ramp.
Deciding he has turtled enough has enough troops, Flash moves out and sets a contain of his own in the attack path
But Bisu is on 4 bases now, and working off 100 gates
Goons snipe Vessel. Arbiter arrives, and Bisu moves down to face the mech line moving down the narrow ramp to face a tank line.)
Look at how Bisu managed to gain advantage from a disadvantageous position
On April 15 2011 12:46 Ryshi wrote: Spoilers Alert: This is the SWL Finals 2011 set 5 on Aztec.
I know there is another thread that exists discussing this game, but that thread is more of a battle report. Unlike the other report, this is an objective analysis on game strategy to explain why the players played the way they did in the opening. I've read the discussion on this game in GG.NoRe's BR, Mystlord's BR on the main page, and a few pages in the live games thread. I wish to highlight on things which were not addressed or addressed wrongly that were critical in the game's direction.
Opening Analysis: This is a game between Bisu and Flash, on the map Aztec. The interesting aspect of this map is that the main is on lower ground to the nat. This feature makes it difficult to break out if the opponent is able to contain from the high ground at the entrance. Simply imagine yourself in the lower ground with an FD or dragoons and your opponent has dragoons or an FD in the higher ground. A lack of vision and a 30% miss rate makes it difficult to fight upwards. The map is quite similar to Reverse Temple and Neo Requiem (except for a larger distance) which are maps that favor early pressure. Hence, it is quite normal of Bisu to build the gateway at the nat despite the vulnerability of it being attacked and also for Flash to opt for some above ground build.
Bisu begins with building his gateway at his nat. The placement of the pylon and gateway has actually a few things to it. The usual reason for the gateway to be placed in the front of the nat is to assist in walling should a vulture runby come later and also to reach the opponent quickly for his zealot strategy. The pylon's placement also has an importance. At first glance, it would have made more sense to put the pylon at the top of the gateway to assist the wall-in, leaving only a small space for units to get through. However, by doing that, it becomes more vulnerable to bunker rush and it would be harder to defend.
A bunker rush is not completely unlikely due to the incentive for early pressure for a contain based on the map. Although the map is big, if Flash did a successful early attack through a proxy rax and by bringing scvs, Flash could easily build a bunker at the top of the ramp that would be difficult to break. This is a definite possibility as there has been quite a history of Flash cheesing Bisu (e.g. Hitchhiker, Monty Hall), and also because the map is quite difficult to TvP, Flash may want to end it early. Hence, the pylon was probably built there from this possibility.
The scouting probe arrives when Flash is building the barracks. Based on the position of the barracks and the percentage complete, Bisu has more assurance Flash is not doing a cheese. It harasses the scv a little bit before moving into Flash's main when Flash sends scv to defend.
The probe scouting the main confirms Flash is not cheesing, this can be done by looking at the scv count. The probe going near Flash's gas causes Flash to take his gas in response. This move actually slowed down Flash's FE quite a bit, but it was needed in case Bisu steals his gas. Recall that Flash lost a game to Stork on Bloody Ridge due to gas steals, and this map also favors the early goon pressure should Bisu choose such a strategy.
Flash's scv goes the wrong way and misses the incoming zealot. All that can be said is luck is entirely in Bisu's favor.
Bisu's zealot arrives when Flash is building his 2nd marine. His first marine is busy trying to kill the probe in the main.This allows Bisu to walk around the wall freely without taking damage. An important note here is that the depot at the nat is Flash's second depot. Flash is already slowed down from the gas before cc build, and flash would have to cut scvs a bit earlier to squeeze out that marine due to the lack of minerals and also supply cap.
The depot is necessary for the supply and Flash would have built it anyway rather than a bunker if he saw the zealot. He could have built a bunker after, but remember he is low on minerals. Also, placing a bunker is difficult as his units may be in the way and Bisu would try to block it. Putting the bunker left of the depot above the barracks is only a temporary solution. It takes time to complete and Bisu's current zealots could just run in main (unless Flash could block it in time). It also leaves the left side vulnerable to dragoon harass should they come, as Flash have yet to scout Bisu. The fact that a zealot came one at a time means it is not dual gate, which means Bisu could be using his resources to tech. Putting a bunker on the right side would just allow zealots to run pass.
The situation at Flash's base is just a micro battle where Bisu tries to kill scvs/marines while Flash defends utilizing his wall by running marines through them. This picture here is just to highlight the minimap to show Flash did scout Bisu. The camera does not show it but the scv is killed by a zealot without even making it to see the forward gateway. This actually doesn't have that big of an impact except not being able to scout if Bisu is expanding or teching. Based on Bisu's zealots and the map, Flash could have probably already guessed it's a forward gateway.
Flash later builds bunker quite soon right after starting his factory before even any dragoon has arrived. This bunker is not to counter zealots, as zealots could just run past and it is difficult to wall with scvs based on the large gaps. The timing is for dragoons. It is not necessary a miscalculation although it was built way before a dragoon even came, only because Bisu expanded first. If Bisu had chosen to tech to goons without FE to try and end the game, the bunker is more or less right timing. This bunker prevents goon from walking by, because if it passes through, the scvs will wall off the goon above the gas area so it will take hits from the bunker without able to pass through. By preventing a dragoon to pass, Flash was able to make a vulture before his machine shop to take care of the zealots in base.
Conclusion Flash was put into a disadvantage due a few cases of bad luck: Bisu was able to scout Flash first causing Flash to slow down his build and also Flash scouting wrong. The micro battles also put Flash behind. Bisu played this advantage out by expanding rather than teching quickly to end the game.
Flash's Alternative Looking back at the game, I think the best thing Flash could have done is build a temporary depot at the location in this image. Although minerals is scarce and Flash does not know if a continuous stream of zealots is coming, if he had known and had the resources building it here would be much better than placing a bunker to fend off the zealots. The depot here is zealot proof, it cannot be placed any lower because zealots can walk pass the right side of the gas. The depot does not need to be complete and can be cancelled later if needed. It may or may not have worked but I think this would have been the best solution.
I've read some people said Flash was unprepared for this game by being sent out this early. While this is true to a certain extent, Flash's building placement was definitely well suited for the map. However, I can't say whether it's simply because he knows this map or he specifically prepared for it.
I hope my analysis is insightful and clarifies on things of why the players did certain things. I wished to have posted this sooner when it was more relevant but I had my exams this past week. Feel free to discuss whether my insights are correct or wrong, and if I am missing anything important.
I think, Bisu's initial zealot harass was absolutely devastating to Flash. Bisu's zealot raped lots and lots of marines and SCVs. If you check the VOD, the commentators were highlighting how little Flash's SCV count is compared to Bisu, although Flash's cc was done earlier. Then, after he barely held off Bisu's zealot rampage with a vulture, the crucial vulture needed to scout was raped by Bisu. Then Flash had to build comsats, and not use it in fear of DTs. By the time Flash realizes wtf is going on, Bisu's 4th base is running already, Vs. Flash's 2. In a desperation attempt, which I think is a horrible decision from Flash, he half-ass pushed and tried to contain Bisu, off of 5 factories...with a science vessel in there as well. =.=. Then, Flash focused too much on the wide choke, and Bisu came down from the narrow one where 2 tanks are present with 12346548794 units...and thats GG. So, from that, we learned that it is not wise to try to contain a 4 base protoss off of 2 bases, even if you're Flash.
You failed to mention Flash's build, which was 5 fact. Flash would never use that on a balanced map. Flash felt the urge to end it quickly because Aztec is completely unplayable in the late-game.
Now in regards to Flash's execution, Flash merely went for a contain rather than the kill. This made little sense as his contain was when Bisu was on 4 bases and Flash on 2. I'm not sure why he did this, but I think it had something to do with the 6-7 vultures he lost for no gain just before he pushed out.
As far as the early zealot pressure went, it was clever from Bisu to find a weakness to rax cc. Most terrans would have just died. But Flash handled it ridiculously well and I don't think it had that large of an effect on the game. Flash's nat cc was running much earlier than Bisu's.
On April 11 2011 03:29 salito wrote: You failed to mention Flash's build, which was 5 fact. Flash would never use that on a balanced map. Flash felt the urge to end it quickly because Aztec is completely unplayable in the late-game.
Now in regards to Flash's execution, Flash merely went for a contain rather than the kill. This made little sense as his contain was when Bisu was on 4 bases and Flash on 2. I'm not sure why he did this, but I think it had something to do with the 6-7 vultures he lost for no gain just before he pushed out.
As far as the early zealot pressure went, it was clever from Bisu to find a weakness to rax cc. Most terrans would have just died. But Flash handled it ridiculously well and I don't think it had that large of an effect on the game. Flash's nat cc was running much earlier than Bisu's.
TLDR: 5 fact execution too passive.
Not really. The initial harass lost Flash so much mining time that he barely had anything once the goon batch was out. Bisu could have finished it there, if not for Terran natural advantages of: 1. wall, 2. repair, and 3. seige tanks.
On April 11 2011 03:29 salito wrote: You failed to mention Flash's build, which was 5 fact. Flash would never use that on a balanced map. Flash felt the urge to end it quickly because Aztec is completely unplayable in the late-game.
Now in regards to Flash's execution, Flash merely went for a contain rather than the kill. This made little sense as his contain was when Bisu was on 4 bases and Flash on 2. I'm not sure why he did this, but I think it had something to do with the 6-7 vultures he lost for no gain just before he pushed out.
As far as the early zealot pressure went, it was clever from Bisu to find a weakness to rax cc. Most terrans would have just died. But Flash handled it ridiculously well and I don't think it had that large of an effect on the game. Flash's nat cc was running much earlier than Bisu's.
TLDR: 5 fact execution too passive.
becuase he clearly did not have enough units to kill toss. So he attempted to get in a good position with good mines and supply depots.. then perhaps slow push or exapand from their...do you play starcraft?
A lot of people are making incorrect points about the game and i'll try to address them here.
First of all, the zealot harass from Bisu was pivotal to winning. Flash lost way more scv's then he should have and on top of that he lost way more marines then he wanted to. Bisu's harassment set him far ahead economically and slowed Flash's build to a halt. You can notice in the VOD that the commentators point out how much of a worse economy Flash has then Bisu even though Flash opened rax cc.
Now lets look at Flash's build. Its key to note that Flash's build was pretty much a copy of Fantasy's Build that Fantasy's been using for quite a while. Just take a look at recent Fantasy TvP's and you'll see this build used quite a lot. Bisu clearly had a ton of practice against this build.
What is fantasy's build anyway? The original build was essentially 1 rax cc --> 1 fact --> academy / armory + 1 wep --> 3 fact --> starport science vessel --> 5 fact. Then pushing out with the science vessel for map control. A lot of people have noted that since it was 5 fact, it was all in, but it really wasn't. Take a look at Fantasy vs Stork. Fantasy is a very similar situation as Flash, excluding how far Flash was behind. Both are at 2 base versus a soon to be 4 base. From there, Fantasy merely gains map control with the vulture, goliath vessel combo and double expands. Whats great about this build, is that you gain a lot of map control in the mid game without sacrificing any infrastructure. You'll note that Fantasy still has a +1 wep with +2 wep coming up and already has vessel tech with EMP. Take a look at Fantasy vs Stats on Circuit Breaker, which is a much better example of how this works. Fantasy pushes out with 5 fact and sets up a contain./ push as he double expands.
If you actually read up to here I'll talk about what Flash did wrong. First of all, the zealot harass. For his skill, Flash should not have lost as much as he did. There were a couple times where if he had reacted a split second earlier, he would've saved a marine or two. Meanwhile Bisu just rallied zealots at little to no cost while taking his expansion. This in itself just broke Flash's whole plan. From there I would have advised him to switch to just the most turtling he's ever done, but he decided to go on with his plan, which wasn't necessarily a bad one.
When you think of it, Aztec is actually a very good map for Flash's/Fantasy's opening. He pretty much plans to contain Bisu at the bridges while he takes his own 3rd and 4th base. By containing the bridges, he makes sure there are no counterattack paths and the only options for P is to break the contain or recall. He assumes that no protoss wants to push down that tiny ramp near the natural to break this push, so he focuses all of his units at having a parallel siege line to the bridges. Had he not taken so much damage in the early game, I have no doubt it would have turned into that same situation. But at that point, it really didn't matter. Bisu could have easily broken through from the bridges and would come out with the same scenario.
So to conclude.
Flash loses way too much early game. Does good build on a good map for it. Loses because of the first point.
On April 11 2011 03:29 salito wrote: You failed to mention Flash's build, which was 5 fact. Flash would never use that on a balanced map. Flash felt the urge to end it quickly because Aztec is completely unplayable in the late-game.
Now in regards to Flash's execution, Flash merely went for a contain rather than the kill. This made little sense as his contain was when Bisu was on 4 bases and Flash on 2. I'm not sure why he did this, but I think it had something to do with the 6-7 vultures he lost for no gain just before he pushed out.
As far as the early zealot pressure went, it was clever from Bisu to find a weakness to rax cc. Most terrans would have just died. But Flash handled it ridiculously well and I don't think it had that large of an effect on the game. Flash's nat cc was running much earlier than Bisu's.
TLDR: 5 fact execution too passive.
becuase he clearly did not have enough units to kill toss. So he attempted to get in a good position with good mines and supply depots.. then perhaps slow push or exapand from their...do you play starcraft?
#1 flashes bunker was late, and he took too much damage from the first zealots #2 he was unable to gain good scouting knowledge, because of the dts (wasted his scan while bisu took a 4th) and his vulture harass was blocked #3due to the above, flash was too passive in his push while bisu gained a huge advantage and won easily
Flash just played expecting bisu to play a certain way and he was way off. I noticed also that flash's game play was less flash-like today as he had to waste 2 scans for 1 ob, and his management early game vs s2 seemed very nervous.
So while the map is seemingly imbalance (the statistics speak for themselves) Flash is very capable of winning TvP on any map, even vs bisu. You can thank the build order of bisu and flash going into auto pilot (+ some nervous play) to attribute to this loss. As for eliminating the map, as new seasons come they will always eliminate the map, I assume this one will be one of the first to be removed.
On April 11 2011 04:24 FyRe_DragOn wrote: #1 flashes bunker was late, and he took too much damage from the first zealots #2 he was unable to gain good scouting knowledge, because of the dts (wasted his scan while bisu took a 4th) and his vulture harass was blocked #3due to the above, flash was too passive in his push while bisu gained a huge advantage and won easily
didn't thought about that, really clever tho. when the dts where going towards the natural , i was like "dude, why are you going to waste 2 dts?"...
Flash cut 100000 corners and that basically cost him the game. The zealot harrass won the game. Now the question is did flash cut corners because he knew the map was imbalanced and needed something to even the score? Also flashes attempt to contain was probably hindered by the massssiivveeee area he had to cover.
The game was already over after the zealot pressure, and flashes 5 fact all in was wise imo. He was simply too far behind economically it would have been silly for him to be passive.
Definately not. If a forward gateway could win you a game vs rax expand, everyone would do it. Flash could have dealt with it better, but he was only slightly behind, mainly because his bunker and siege tank was delayed.
I think the purpose of the build was to keep Flash defending, and then back off while double expanding to 4 bases. Bisu's build was very vulnerable to vulture drops, and he knew that, since he overdefended his new bases with dragoons. It's impossible to protect 4 bases at that time of the game though, so Flash could've easily done massive damage with drops. Maybe the point of the DT's was to make Flash waste scans and keep him guessing. I'm pretty sure when Flash saw the replay, he knew exactly what he did wrong.
Definately not. If a forward gateway could win you a game vs rax expand, everyone would do it. Flash could have dealt with it better, but he was only slightly behind, mainly because his bunker and siege tank was delayed.
I think the purpose of the build was to keep Flash defending, and then back off while double expanding to 4 bases. Bisu's build was very vulnerable to vulture drops, and he knew that, since he overdefended his new bases with dragoons. It's impossible to protect 4 bases at that time of the game though, so Flash could've easily done massive damage with drops. Maybe the point of the DT's was to make Flash waste scans and keep him guessing. I'm pretty sure when Flash saw the replay, he knew exactly what he did wrong.
Yes and i bet when Bisu practiced this strategy against Fantasy, Bisu lost. I'll say this much: Flash's marine SCV micro was far less than the usual godlike micro.
Don't make threads about maps just cause someone lost. Aztec isn't that bad as some of the really really bad maps over the years, not even close. salito, trying to claim it's unplayable is just ignorant. Flash is flash for a start and he just didn't respond or play particularly well except handling the zealots quite well which even then put him behind, because he was willing to risk blind Rax CC against an SKT1 player in a game where something unusual could obviously happen, and did not even go for a safety bunker behind the depot at least temporarily until he could make one in the front. The map played no part in the original event that cost him the game, so what's the point of this thread?
After that it's just eco advantage into win. But Flash still could have done a better job if you really must discuss it, there's an expo right below that can be easily held with his style mech and then hold out until a later stronger push that he's so good with. If you get a mech ball up the big ramp behind the P natural, they are fucked. The distance isn't even that far. So saying it's unplayable is ridiculous, the 3rd gas isn't that far away or hard to hold in that position.
Think about it, If it's truly that bad why the hell is he going for such a blind risk opening when every P is trying to punish it these days? Just 2fac or something instead if it's apparently terrible. The low down main helps any early T push like that.
We didn't see threads made for every crazy stats TvZ map from last year every time Zergs lost to insane mech walls that couldn't be broken with twice the apm of the defender.
Bisu is able to get into Flash's main with the zealots and is able to see the vulture coming out. He's able to tell that his zealot harass alone won't win the game, and switches to goons, which proceed to deny any scouting vultures. Furthermore, he followed up the denial of scouting information through DTs and Goons (and Flash's mistake of wasting two scans for a observer), along with his economical damage with a double expansion. Flash wasn't able to scout it soon enough, and when he scouted it, he didn't have enough money to execute a proper 5 fact.
My question is, if Flash had invested in an earlier ebay and some turrets to stop DTs, would he have been able to use his scan to scout?
Also Flash went 1 armory and starport/science facility. If he had just gone 5 fact from the beginning, would his push been quicker and more effective?
I admit though, Bisu's sniping of the science vessel was pretty baller, and that engagement into that setup of Flash was pretty epic.
I'm pretty sure the primary purpose for the bunker flash built was not for the zealots, but to prepare for goon harass to come, hence it was built at that location. The timing of this bunker is evidence for this. It was quite late vs the zealots but in time for the goons. This bunker was also needed so he could build a vulture first rather than a tank.
It was a bad decision by Flash to go 1 rax FE when SKT said they had some special strat prepared. And Flash didn't demonstrate the beastly marine micro needed to effectively defend 1 rax FE against zealot aggression. And he cut marines after making 1 while still in the dark about Bisu's build. Not to detract from Bisu's zealot micro and build preparation, but a key factor in Flash's loss was his own greed.
On April 11 2011 06:20 Mortality wrote: The map is clearly bad for TvP but it's nowhere near unplayable. Bisu played the better game of Starcraft, that's all.
Pretty much this.. I happen to like Aztec quite a bit and although it is hard for TvP I think it's an interesting map that should be kept in the map rotation. Also PvZ is really fun to play on and watch on this map.
Definately not. If a forward gateway could win you a game vs rax expand, everyone would do it. Flash could have dealt with it better, but he was only slightly behind, mainly because his bunker and siege tank was delayed.
I think the purpose of the build was to keep Flash defending, and then back off while double expanding to 4 bases. Bisu's build was very vulnerable to vulture drops, and he knew that, since he overdefended his new bases with dragoons. It's impossible to protect 4 bases at that time of the game though, so Flash could've easily done massive damage with drops. Maybe the point of the DT's was to make Flash waste scans and keep him guessing. I'm pretty sure when Flash saw the replay, he knew exactly what he did wrong.
Protoss doesn't do a forward gateway+Gate-FE every game because of how bad it is vs a fact-expand (FD). Otherwise forward Gate+Gate-FE is possibly the best counter to Rax-FE. Also I imagine that almost all Protosses will be doing forward Gates on Aztec, because getting contained at the reverse ramp by a bunker means GG for Protoss.
Definately not. If a forward gateway could win you a game vs rax expand, everyone would do it. Flash could have dealt with it better, but he was only slightly behind, mainly because his bunker and siege tank was delayed.
I think the purpose of the build was to keep Flash defending, and then back off while double expanding to 4 bases. Bisu's build was very vulnerable to vulture drops, and he knew that, since he overdefended his new bases with dragoons. It's impossible to protect 4 bases at that time of the game though, so Flash could've easily done massive damage with drops. Maybe the point of the DT's was to make Flash waste scans and keep him guessing. I'm pretty sure when Flash saw the replay, he knew exactly what he did wrong.
Protoss doesn't do a forward gateway+Gate-FE every game because of how bad it is vs a fact-expand (FD). Otherwise forward Gate+Gate-FE is possibly the best counter to Rax-FE. Also I imagine that almost all Protosses will be doing forward Gates on Aztec, because getting contained at the reverse ramp by a bunker means GG for Protoss.
Forward gate like that also stops terrans who try to proxy rax by their minonly ie Fantasy and Ssak. (perfectman vs ssak is one example)
Following up the forward gate with 2gate goon range also works well and has potential to straight up kill the terran or inflict severe damage with decent micro.
On April 11 2011 03:29 salito wrote: You failed to mention Flash's build, which was 5 fact. Flash would never use that on a balanced map. Flash felt the urge to end it quickly because Aztec is completely unplayable in the late-game.
Now in regards to Flash's execution, Flash merely went for a contain rather than the kill. This made little sense as his contain was when Bisu was on 4 bases and Flash on 2. I'm not sure why he did this, but I think it had something to do with the 6-7 vultures he lost for no gain just before he pushed out.
As far as the early zealot pressure went, it was clever from Bisu to find a weakness to rax cc. Most terrans would have just died. But Flash handled it ridiculously well and I don't think it had that large of an effect on the game. Flash's nat cc was running much earlier than Bisu's.
TLDR: 5 fact execution too passive.
I definitely would not call that build a 5 fact. Watch the game again, and look at Flash's factory timing. After his first tank gets out and his natural is relatively secure, he adds two factories, and then an armory, and a starport. By the time Bisu's obs gets in his base (the part where Flash scans it and snipes it with goliaths), his fourth factory is still building. At the point where he pushes out of his base to set up his tank line, his fifth factory has just recently started.
I think he lost for several reasons. Firstly, the initial zealot harass. Sure, Bisu lost 4 (or 5?) zealots, but he delayed Flash's mining, killed quite a few SCVs and marines, and forced Flash to build more marines than he wanted to. If Flash can get away with building just two or three marines and putting them in the bunker, then he is going into the midgame very comfortably.
Also, Flash teched hard, and quite unnecessarily in my opinion. After his first three factories, he added an armory, starport, scans, and a science facility. All for what? This tech only let him not die to DTs, and snipe a few observers. Big deal. Once those two DTs and observers were dead, Flash was just sitting there awkwardly with this tech he didn't need. In addition, he wasted three scans just to kill a 1 observer and 2 DTs. These three scans would be much better if they were on Bisu's base to see what he was doing. Anyways, after sniping the observer, the goliaths were basically useless, and the Science Vessels did nothing except let Flash snipe a few observers.
A few things to notice about the Science Vessels: 1.) That one gets sniped by about 5 goons. Epic move by Bisu. Very unfortunate for Flash. 2.) All of Flash's Science Vessels that he made in the entire game cast a total of 2 spells: 1 EMP on some random group of zealots, and a Defensive Matrix on a tank. Both of these were as he was defending his third, not during his initial push. He wasn't even using his Science Vessels for vision. When Bisu shut down Flash's push, Flash was using turrets and scan to see Bisu's cloaked units. There were no vessels in sight.
My point is, when you spend that much money on tech and it does nothing, there's no way that it can be good for you.
oh my goodness. i have had so much difficulty with 1 rax expanding against this forward gate that delays the gas to get the natural up much faster.
its just so hard to combat against the zealot because you really need to have clutch micro, possibly delay your cc for a bunker and it doesn't really affect p that much. this is definately a hard counter to 1 rax fe. great play by bisu
As for the map imba... does anyone else find it ironic that toss has such an advantage on aztec? ...yknow, it's kinda like the conquistadors vs the hispanic natives with the invaders of earth taking over human civilization
On April 11 2011 11:24 Taekwon wrote: As for the map imba... does anyone else find it ironic that toss has such an advantage on aztec? ...yknow, it's kinda like the conquistadors vs the hispanic natives with the invaders of earth taking over human civilization
On April 11 2011 10:35 DTK-m2 wrote: Also, Flash teched hard, and quite unnecessarily in my opinion. After his first three factories, he added an armory, starport, scans, and a science facility. All for what? This tech only let him not die to DTs, and snipe a few observers. Big deal. Once those two DTs and observers were dead, Flash was just sitting there awkwardly with this tech he didn't need. In addition, he wasted three scans just to kill a 1 observer and 2 DTs. These three scans would be much better if they were on Bisu's base to see what he was doing. Anyways, after sniping the observer, the goliaths were basically useless, and the Science Vessels did nothing except let Flash snipe a few observers.
A few things to notice about the Science Vessels: 1.) That one gets sniped by about 5 goons. Epic move by Bisu. Very unfortunate for Flash. 2.) All of Flash's Science Vessels that he made in the entire game cast a total of 2 spells: 1 EMP on some random group of zealots, and a Defensive Matrix on a tank. Both of these were as he was defending his third, not during his initial push. He wasn't even using his Science Vessels for vision. When Bisu shut down Flash's push, Flash was using turrets and scan to see Bisu's cloaked units. There were no vessels in sight.
My point is, when you spend that much money on tech and it does nothing, there's no way that it can be good for you.
To be fair, I feel like given Flash's gameplan, it actually *was* necessary for him to tech that way. Bisu got DTs, and Flash chose to skip turrets in order to get a fast armory and Goliath, which overall saves him money in defending from drop harass, but also makes it so that Bisu can easily fuck up an early push by Flash without vessels by sending in DTs one at a time. Given that he was unwilling to sacrifice some economy to get turrets, he basically was forced to get the Science Vessel, and Bisu perhaps predicted this and cleverly stopped getting DTs after his first pair.
I'd say that one of his major mistakes was using those two scans to kill that observer, given that it really wasn't seeing anything particularly crucial, such as factory count. Those were scans needed to scan Bisu's bases and DTs if Flash chose to push, but after he used them up he pretty much had to 1) wait for turrets, 2) use Science Vessel, and he'd already chosen to skip 1, and so as mentioned in the previous paragraph, it was a forced choice. Not ideal, but Flash doesn't have maphack to know that Bisu had stopped using DTs. Or, he used up his maphack for a silly observer.
Basically, Flash's Science Vessels were a waste that game, but that was because of smart play by Bisu, using the threat of DTs to force the response, and then doing nothing more. It would be like faking someone into building a ton of Goliaths by building a Fleet Beacon, but actually going for a full ground army.
On April 11 2011 05:50 infinity2k9 wrote: We didn't see threads made for every crazy stats TvZ map from last year every time Zergs lost to insane mech walls that couldn't be broken with twice the apm of the defender.
that's because T>>>Z maps were the norm so nobody batted a wink
On April 11 2011 05:50 infinity2k9 wrote: We didn't see threads made for every crazy stats TvZ map from last year every time Zergs lost to insane mech walls that couldn't be broken with twice the apm of the defender.
that's because T>>>Z maps were the norm so nobody batted a wink
Yeah, haha.
Also, no Zerg has just absolutely owned the ZvT matchup the way Flash frequently makes top P's look absolutely helpless. That's why it's interesting when he loses, and especially in a game like this where he was clearly in deep trouble the entire time.
Part of it is that ZvT is, in my opinion, inherently a harder matchup to dominate to the degree Flash manages to dominate TvP, though I don't think it's any harder to merely be good at ZvT than it is to be good at TvP. Flash is able to exceed regular Terrans at decision making and game sense by so much that Protoss players simply can't prepare for him in practice.
On April 11 2011 04:12 guMmiwormz wrote: If you actually read up to here I'll talk about what Flash did wrong. First of all, the zealot harass. For his skill, Flash should not have lost as much as he did. There were a couple times where if he had reacted a split second earlier, he would've saved a marine or two. Meanwhile Bisu just rallied zealots at little to no cost while taking his expansion. This in itself just broke Flash's whole plan. From there I would have advised him to switch to just the most turtling he's ever done, but he decided to go on with his plan, which wasn't necessarily a bad one.
You know zealots are just as fast as marines.. The top level terrans arent idiots, they know how to micro. However it isnt possible to kite marines against zealots due to the equal speed, and necessity to use scvs to even attempt to slow the zealots down a little.
On April 11 2011 05:50 infinity2k9 wrote: We didn't see threads made for every crazy stats TvZ map from last year every time Zergs lost to insane mech walls that couldn't be broken with twice the apm of the defender.
that's because T>>>Z maps were the norm so nobody batted a wink
Yeah, haha.
Also, no Zerg has just absolutely owned the ZvT matchup the way Flash frequently makes top P's look absolutely helpless. That's why it's interesting when he loses, and especially in a game like this where he was clearly in deep trouble the entire time.
Part of it is that ZvT is, in my opinion, inherently a harder matchup to dominate to the degree Flash manages to dominate TvP, though I don't think it's any harder to merely be good at ZvT than it is to be good at TvP. Flash is able to exceed regular Terrans at decision making and game sense by so much that Protoss players simply can't prepare for him in practice.
Umm yellow[arnc] was known for his insane zvt. savior during his reign made all the terrans look like scrubs
the reason why people find it so interesting/enjoyable when flash loses or any terran for that matter is because the way terran wins is generally boring: a slow fatass ball moving its way towards the enemy base while they sit there helpless.
although to be fair to terran these proleague maps have been pretty unfavourable this season. aztec, bloody ridge and icarus. and let's not forget central plains -.- (before they replaced it with freaking BR)
On April 11 2011 05:50 infinity2k9 wrote: We didn't see threads made for every crazy stats TvZ map from last year every time Zergs lost to insane mech walls that couldn't be broken with twice the apm of the defender.
that's because T>>>Z maps were the norm so nobody batted a wink
Yeah, haha.
Also, no Zerg has just absolutely owned the ZvT matchup the way Flash frequently makes top P's look absolutely helpless. That's why it's interesting when he loses, and especially in a game like this where he was clearly in deep trouble the entire time.
Part of it is that ZvT is, in my opinion, inherently a harder matchup to dominate to the degree Flash manages to dominate TvP, though I don't think it's any harder to merely be good at ZvT than it is to be good at TvP. Flash is able to exceed regular Terrans at decision making and game sense by so much that Protoss players simply can't prepare for him in practice.
Umm yellow[arnc] was known for his insane zvt. savior during his reign made all the terrans look like scrubs
the reason why people find it so interesting/enjoyable when flash loses or any terran for that matter is because the way terran wins is generally boring: a slow fatass ball moving its way towards the enemy base while they sit there helpless.
although to be fair to terran these proleague maps have been pretty unfavourable this season. aztec, bloody ridge and icarus. and let's not forget central plains -.- (before they replaced it with freaking BR)
There are more maps where T>Z than those where T<Z. In fact if you look at winners league statistics, clearly Zerg has been the underdog, getting mauled by both the protoss and terran who in turn have been kind of equal(with terran perhaps ahead due to how brutal their dominance over zerg has been)
On April 11 2011 10:35 DTK-m2 wrote: Also, Flash teched hard, and quite unnecessarily in my opinion. After his first three factories, he added an armory, starport, scans, and a science facility. All for what? This tech only let him not die to DTs, and snipe a few observers. Big deal. Once those two DTs and observers were dead, Flash was just sitting there awkwardly with this tech he didn't need. In addition, he wasted three scans just to kill a 1 observer and 2 DTs. These three scans would be much better if they were on Bisu's base to see what he was doing. Anyways, after sniping the observer, the goliaths were basically useless, and the Science Vessels did nothing except let Flash snipe a few observers.
A few things to notice about the Science Vessels: 1.) That one gets sniped by about 5 goons. Epic move by Bisu. Very unfortunate for Flash. 2.) All of Flash's Science Vessels that he made in the entire game cast a total of 2 spells: 1 EMP on some random group of zealots, and a Defensive Matrix on a tank. Both of these were as he was defending his third, not during his initial push. He wasn't even using his Science Vessels for vision. When Bisu shut down Flash's push, Flash was using turrets and scan to see Bisu's cloaked units. There were no vessels in sight.
My point is, when you spend that much money on tech and it does nothing, there's no way that it can be good for you.
To be fair, I feel like given Flash's gameplan, it actually *was* necessary for him to tech that way. Bisu got DTs, and Flash chose to skip turrets in order to get a fast armory and Goliath, which overall saves him money in defending from drop harass, but also makes it so that Bisu can easily fuck up an early push by Flash without vessels by sending in DTs one at a time. Given that he was unwilling to sacrifice some economy to get turrets, he basically was forced to get the Science Vessel, and Bisu perhaps predicted this and cleverly stopped getting DTs after his first pair.
I'd say that one of his major mistakes was using those two scans to kill that observer, given that it really wasn't seeing anything particularly crucial, such as factory count. Those were scans needed to scan Bisu's bases and DTs if Flash chose to push, but after he used them up he pretty much had to 1) wait for turrets, 2) use Science Vessel, and he'd already chosen to skip 1, and so as mentioned in the previous paragraph, it was a forced choice. Not ideal, but Flash doesn't have maphack to know that Bisu had stopped using DTs. Or, he used up his maphack for a silly observer.
Basically, Flash's Science Vessels were a waste that game, but that was because of smart play by Bisu, using the threat of DTs to force the response, and then doing nothing more. It would be like faking someone into building a ton of Goliaths by building a Fleet Beacon, but actually going for a full ground army.
No, I think it was more like he changed his mind halfway through, and attempted to do a timing push on the double expo rather than take a 3rd when he was still on 3 factories.
Yeah I think Flash really shouldn't have burned all those scans earlier. No scans, plus his lack of scouting => decision to tech hard to early upgraded goliaths and vessels in order to blind counter drops/DTs, and Bisu made a good decision to not actually make any more DTs or any harass in general making the tech pretty useless.
This led to what I saw as a weak contain. It had only 5 tanks initially with only 1 complete machine shop at the time of the push, with maybe 8 sieged tanks tops at the contain break, while Bisu is sitting on 4 base macroing a massive arbiter ground army. All that gas spent on tech = low gas for tanks, and it didn't help that all the tanks were spread out due to the nature of the contain.
And Bisu sniped the vessel anyway. lol
Also I'm going to give credit to Bisu here - how often can I say that I really liked Bisu's performance here given his history of weaker PvT? All his offense worked as intended, he won the scouting/mind games, and cleanly converted his advantage into a win.
This game can be compared with Jaehoon vs Fantasy in SWL
Flash did 1rax fe, fantasy did 1fact fe. Both guys got hit by heavy 1gate zealot pressure and suffered marine losses(fantasy didnt lose scvs though i think)
Flash expanded to second at 2:47 Flash made his fact at 4:28
Fantasy made his fact at 3:00 Fantasy expanded to second at 4:17
This difference in fact timing was critical to the course of both games.
While Flash was having his bunker pressured by goons at 7:00, fantasy had already laid mines to gain map control and Jaehoon was struggling to blind-clear them, allowing fantasy to take a fast third off two facts with clever tank placement(tank hidden behind tree + scvs repairing) and delay fourth of Jaehoon with vult harassment and mine at 4th.
Fantasy expanded to third at 6:50 Jaehoon expanded to third at 7:53
Bisu double expanded at 8:30
Conclusion: abuse imba fact units :p their power more than makes up for the delayed expansion.
Definately not. If a forward gateway could win you a game vs rax expand, everyone would do it. Flash could have dealt with it better, but he was only slightly behind, mainly because his bunker and siege tank was delayed.
I think the purpose of the build was to keep Flash defending, and then back off while double expanding to 4 bases. Bisu's build was very vulnerable to vulture drops, and he knew that, since he overdefended his new bases with dragoons. It's impossible to protect 4 bases at that time of the game though, so Flash could've easily done massive damage with drops. Maybe the point of the DT's was to make Flash waste scans and keep him guessing. I'm pretty sure when Flash saw the replay, he knew exactly what he did wrong.
Protoss doesn't do a forward gateway+Gate-FE every game because of how bad it is vs a fact-expand (FD). Otherwise forward Gate+Gate-FE is possibly the best counter to Rax-FE. Also I imagine that almost all Protosses will be doing forward Gates on Aztec, because getting contained at the reverse ramp by a bunker means GG for Protoss.
I agree that Factory first is safer, and better overall against non-standard early pushes, but I don't agree that forward Gateway or any other kind of early push is a counter to Rax CC. There are no offensive counters to Rax CC. If there were, Flash wouldn't have the highest matchup win rate since start of 2010, and Terran wouldn't be doing so good lately in general against Protoss. Flash's TvP is 48 wins - 11 losses (81.36%) and rax CC is basically the only opening he does. If that opening could be countered by early pressure, Flash wouldn't have that win rate.
If you're talking about lower level players you're right, but progamers like Flash knows where to place his buildings plus have good enough marine micro to deal with early zealots. With early aggression from Protoss, you can at best negate Rax CC and even the score, but you can't counter it offensively.
Bisu went 8 pylon, 9 gate (cutting a probe) with the intention of making at least one zealot. Flash went rax CC. Both players did this prior to scouting their respective opponents.
Flash scouted late and did not see zealots coming beforehand. Bisu continued pumping zealots in reaction to seeing Flash's rax CC (as he predicted). Flash took major damage and fell behind during this time.
Anything afterwards is Bisu securing the win with his advantage and Flash failing to make a comeback.
You could guess that Flash never wanted to play on Aztec but was forced due to KT's failure. It is unlikely that Flash had anything prepared for this map, so he just resorted to a build he was comfortable with.
On the other hand, Bisu's build was completely designed to exploit a vulnerability in Flash's usual play.
There is not much more you can conclude from this game; I don't get why people are seriously over-analyzing this.
Bisu really really showed fucking perfect form in busting Flash at the end. You can see in the VOD camera shows Bisu he basically jumping for joy in his seat when he knew he had game raped. The initial zeal harass was hard to follow but if you noticed the kills on his zeals they all had like 2-4. It was dirty dirty and awesome.
On April 11 2011 04:12 guMmiwormz wrote: If you actually read up to here I'll talk about what Flash did wrong. First of all, the zealot harass. For his skill, Flash should not have lost as much as he did. There were a couple times where if he had reacted a split second earlier, he would've saved a marine or two. Meanwhile Bisu just rallied zealots at little to no cost while taking his expansion. This in itself just broke Flash's whole plan. From there I would have advised him to switch to just the most turtling he's ever done, but he decided to go on with his plan, which wasn't necessarily a bad one.
You know zealots are just as fast as marines.. The top level terrans arent idiots, they know how to micro. However it isnt possible to kite marines against zealots due to the equal speed, and necessity to use scvs to even attempt to slow the zealots down a little.
Thats why every terran has a sim city. There were multiple times when Flash could have pulled his marines through the sim city and saved a few marines, but he didn't.The only time when you need scvs is when the zealots avoid the sim city and in this case, move down the ramp. Flash's micro was far from perfect that game. The
You do realize that things were extremely difficult for Flash because the marines spawned outside the wall and often there were zealots on both sides of the wall, right?
On April 12 2011 04:37 koreasilver wrote: You do realize that things were extremely difficult for Flash because the marines spawned outside the wall and often there were zealots on both sides of the wall, right?
I quickly rescanned the vod and I count 4-5 marines that Flash lost to single zealots without a 2nd zealot there for Bisu. So it really was Flash just poorly microing.
Definately not. If a forward gateway could win you a game vs rax expand, everyone would do it. Flash could have dealt with it better, but he was only slightly behind, mainly because his bunker and siege tank was delayed.
I think the purpose of the build was to keep Flash defending, and then back off while double expanding to 4 bases. Bisu's build was very vulnerable to vulture drops, and he knew that, since he overdefended his new bases with dragoons. It's impossible to protect 4 bases at that time of the game though, so Flash could've easily done massive damage with drops. Maybe the point of the DT's was to make Flash waste scans and keep him guessing. I'm pretty sure when Flash saw the replay, he knew exactly what he did wrong.
Protoss doesn't do a forward gateway+Gate-FE every game because of how bad it is vs a fact-expand (FD). Otherwise forward Gate+Gate-FE is possibly the best counter to Rax-FE. Also I imagine that almost all Protosses will be doing forward Gates on Aztec, because getting contained at the reverse ramp by a bunker means GG for Protoss.
I agree that Factory first is safer, and better overall against non-standard early pushes, but I don't agree that forward Gateway or any other kind of early push is a counter to Rax CC. There are no offensive counters to Rax CC. If there were, Flash wouldn't have the highest matchup win rate since start of 2010, and Terran wouldn't be doing so good lately in general against Protoss. Flash's TvP is 48 wins - 11 losses (81.36%) and rax CC is basically the only opening he does. If that opening could be countered by early pressure, Flash wouldn't have that win rate.
If you're talking about lower level players you're right, but progamers like Flash knows where to place his buildings plus have good enough marine micro to deal with early zealots. With early aggression from Protoss, you can at best negate Rax CC and even the score, but you can't counter it offensively.
It's not a counter in the same sense as BBS>>>12 Nex, but the best possible opening Protoss can use against Rax-FE because it gives them the most amount of econ while being able to buffer any sort of early aggression from the Terran easily. Combine this with a shorter rush distance and nat structures, Protoss can easily net a few SCV kills to put them ahead (since Rax-FE and Gate-FE expand around the same time). It's just that any sort of Fact-Expand play, which is very common, will make it very difficult for Protoss if he does Gate-FE+Forward Gate. Flash has a high win-rate though because of a combination of almost-perfect gamesense, really fucking good positioning/micro and a lot of unorthodox builds he's been doing.
Play the same scenario out on almost any other map, flash doesn't wall off, Bisu will win again. The advantages of the map didn't have time to come into play. Bisu got so far ahead on initial rush, Flash had to go all in in the push trying to snipe an expansion before he was truly ready for it and lost. Great play by Bisu, don't blame the map.
On April 11 2011 03:29 salito wrote: You failed to mention Flash's build, which was 5 fact. Flash would never use that on a balanced map. Flash felt the urge to end it quickly because Aztec is completely unplayable in the late-game.
Now in regards to Flash's execution, Flash merely went for a contain rather than the kill. This made little sense as his contain was when Bisu was on 4 bases and Flash on 2. I'm not sure why he did this, but I think it had something to do with the 6-7 vultures he lost for no gain just before he pushed out.
As far as the early zealot pressure went, it was clever from Bisu to find a weakness to rax cc. Most terrans would have just died. But Flash handled it ridiculously well and I don't think it had that large of an effect on the game. Flash's nat cc was running much earlier than Bisu's.
TLDR: 5 fact execution too passive.
becuase he clearly did not have enough units to kill toss. So he attempted to get in a good position with good mines and supply depots.. then perhaps slow push or exapand from their...do you play starcraft?
lol too harsh. take it easy
oh ur right sry getting raped by toss every night can make you a harsh man
I've never fully understood condescending self-gratifying comments like this. So for the purposes of discussion, lets take up everything one by one:
On April 12 2011 03:16 oxidized wrote: Ugh, it's not that complicated guys.
What exactly does this mean? That you've got the whole thing figured out?
Bisu went 8 pylon, 9 gate (cutting a probe) with the intention of making at least one zealot. Flash went rax CC. Both players did this prior to scouting their respective opponents.
Are you implying that the build should come after the scout?
Flash scouted late and did not see zealots coming beforehand. Bisu continued pumping zealots in reaction to seeing Flash's rax CC (as he predicted). Flash took major damage and fell behind during this time.
Anything afterwards is Bisu securing the win with his advantage and Flash failing to make a comeback.
Easy then. No! This is where those who mind what theyre talking about are separated from everyone else.
You could guess that Flash never wanted to play on Aztec but was forced due to KT's failure. It is unlikely that Flash had anything prepared for this map, so he just resorted to a build he was comfortable with.
These are progamers we are talking about. And it is THE SWL FINALS. They prepare for EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING.
On the other hand, Bisu's build was completely designed to exploit a vulnerability in Flash's usual play.
It was expected and responsible of him to do so. Thank God!
There is not much more you can conclude from this game; I don't get why people are seriously over-analyzing this.
Again, if its not your coffee, dont drink it. Some people have the ability to look past the superficial appearances and dwell happily on the minuscule details.
These are progamers we are talking about. And it is THE SWL FINALS. They prepare for EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING.
Given the scarcity of time and practice schedules, this is not possible. Choices must be made, what is prepared for and what is forgone to achieve the preparation, lest preparation for more possibilities be mediocre. You can often see this in the interviews where they admit that they didnt have time to prepare for map x or situation y.
Here it is. Someone could please translate? Please. + Show Spoiler +
◇이영호를 상대로 승리를 확신한 김택용이 만세를 부르고 있다.
[데일리e스포츠 남윤성 기자]
신한은행 위너스리그 10-11 시즌 결승전이 지난 9일 마무리됐습니다. KT 롤스터가 사상 첫 위너스리그 2연패에 도전했지만 SK텔레콤 T1에게 1대4로 완패하면서 왕좌를 내줬죠. SK텔레콤은 단체전의 모든 방식에서 우승한 첫 팀이 됐습니다. 심지어 스페셜포스 프로리그도 우승을 한 적이 있으니까요.
이번 '핀포인트'에서는 결승전 5세트 경기를 되짚어 보려 합니다. 이영호와 김택용이라는 당대 최고의 스타가 맞대결을 펼치자 수많은 e스포츠 팬들이 기대감을 갖고 지켜봤습니다.
두 선수의 경기력도 좋았습니다. 김택용은 좋은 빌드 오더를 들고 나왔고 이영호도 계속 신들린 듯한 방어를 선보였습니다. 최고의 경기력을 가진 두 선수가 최고의 무대에서 대결하는 모습을 되새기면서 그날의 흥분을 함께 느껴보시죠.
◆심리적 압박감 이영호와 김택용의 경기는 사실 시소가 많이 기울어진 상황에서 진행됐습니다. SK텔레콤의 선봉이었던 이승석이 3킬을 기록하며 KT는 어쩔 수 없이 이영호 카드를 4세트에 기용해야 했죠. 이영호가 이승석을 제압하면서 1대3로 한 세트를 따라 붙었지만 스코어가 이미 벌어졌습니다.
이러한 위기 상황에서 테란이 프로토스를 상대로 세 배 이상 많은 패를 기록한 5세트 '아즈텍'에서 김택용을 만났다는 사실이 이영호에게 압박으로 작용했을 것이라 생각합니다.
게다가 SK텔레콤이 미디어데이부터 계속 이영호를 잡을 수 있는 빌드 오더를 들고 나왔다고 엄포를 놓은 상태였으니 이영호로서는 두 배의 압박감에 시달렸을 것입니다.
KT 롤스터에서 대장이라 불리고 있고 네 번째 주자로 나서면 패하지 않는 기록을 갖고 있던 '끝판왕' 이영호라 하더라도 머리 속에 복잡해질 환경이 마련된 셈이지요. 5세트까지 오더라도 2대2인 상태였다면 이영호가 홀가분한 마음으로 경기를 치를 수 있었을 것입니다.
그러나 상황을 돌이킬 수는 없었죠. 1대3은 이영호가 받아들여야만 하는 숫자였습니다.
◇이영호가 정찰을 보낸 SCV가 5시 지역으로 이동합니다. 첫 번째 불운이네요(위). 반면에 김택용의 프로브는 이영호의 본진을 한 번에 파악합니다. 배럭이 언덕 위에 존재하고 커맨드 센터를 일찌감치 지을 것이라는 것도 알아챕니다.
◆따르지 않은 정찰운 이영호는 덤덤하게 플레이했습니다. 극단적인 전략인 2팩토리를 사용할 수도 있었고 팩토리를 하나만 지은 뒤 탱크나 벌처를 뽑으면서 언덕 위의 확장을 가져갈 수도 있었습니다.
이영호의 선택은 입구 지역을 서플라이 디폿과 배럭으로 막으면서 앞마당 지역에 커맨드 센터를 일찌감치 짓는 것이었습니다. 소위 배럭 더블이라 불리는 일반적인 패턴입니다.
이 전략을 성공시키기 위해서는 정찰이 매우 중요합니다. 프로토스가 어떤 움직임을 보이느냐를 확인하면서 발맞춰 대응한다면 아무리 '아즈텍'이라 하더라도 테란이 경기를 수월하게 풀어갈 수 있습니다.
그런데 행운의 여신은 이영호의 편이 아니었습니다. 3개의 스타팅포인트로 구성된 '아즈텍'에서 이영호는 1/2 확률을 찍는데 실패합니다. SCV를 5시 지역으로 보내면서 김택용의 체제를 전혀 모르는 답답한 상황에서 경기를 풀어야 했죠.
배럭을 지은 뒤 자원을 모으는 상황에서 이영호는 머린을 1기밖에 생산하지 않습니다. 커맨드 센터를 가져가는 시점을 최대한 앞당기고 두 개의 확장 기지에서 채취되는 자원을 팩토리 건설과 병력 생산에 투자한 뒤 타이밍을 잡으려고 했던 모양입니다.
◇이영호가 앞마당에 커맨드 센터를 가져가고 있습니다. 정찰에 성공한 김택용의 질럿이 건물을 짓고 있는 SCV를 계속 공격합니다.
그렇지만 정찰의 실패로 인해 이영호는 심대한 피해를 입었습니다. 김택용이 게이트웨이를 언덕 지역에 건설한 뒤 질럿을 계속 생산해 공격을 시도했기 때문입니다.
만약 첫 정찰을 보낸 SCV가 8시 지역으로 이동했다면 이영호는 다른 방식으로 대응했을 가능성이 큽니다. 그러나 뜻대로 풀리지 않으면서 질럿에 의해 건물을 짓던 SCV가 수시로 잡히면서 승기를 내주고 시작했습니다.
이영호의 정찰 실패와 맞물린 김택용의 전략 선택도 매우 좋았습니다. 일반적인 맵이라면 질럿을 6기나 뽑아 계속 공격을 시도하는 것은 무모한 전술이라 비난받았을테지만 공격 거리가 그리 멀지 않은 '아즈텍'이었고 한 번의 정찰로 이영호의 체제를 모두 확인했기에 질럿 찌르기의 효율은 매우 높아졌습니다.
◇이번엔 드라군인데요. 벌처가 빠져 나가지 못하도록 길을 막고 공격을 시도합니다. 벌처가 잡히면서 이영호의 흔들기가 일차적으로 실패합니다.
여기에 이영호에게 또 하나의 불운-김택용의 실력이기도 하죠-이 따릅니다. 질럿 공격을 계속 막아낸 이영호가 팩토리에서 처음으로 생산한 벌처 한 기를 중앙 지역으로 내보내려고 했지만 김택용의 드라군에 의해 파괴되면서 이영호의 작전은 헝클어져 버렸습니다. 벌처가 활개를 치고 마인까지 개발됐다면 김택용이 마음 놓고 드라군을 보낼 수 없겠지만 중앙 지역에 닿지도 못하고 파괴되면서 심리적인 안정감을 찾는 쪽은 김택용이었습니다.
◆뒤집을 수 없던 맵 데이터 초반부터 압박을 받았지만 이영호는 예리한 타이밍에 치고 나오면서 김택용을 압박하려 했습니다. 김택용이 질럿 압박 이후 드라군을 생산하며 벌처에 대한 대비책을 꾸린 뒤 다크 템플러로 시간을 벌려 했지만 한 번의 스캔으로 두 기의 다크 템플러를 모두 잡아낸 이영호는 프로토스가 확장 기지를 가져갈 것이라 예상하고 치고 나왔죠.
◇이영호가 탱크와 벌처, 골리앗을 이끌고 큰 길목을 봉쇄하기 위해 진출합니다.
골리앗 두 기로 셔틀을 활용한 드롭 공격에 대한 방비책을 마련한 이영호는 벌처와 탱크를 이끌고 중앙 지역으로 내려왔습니다. 마인을 매설하면서 탱크를 배치했고 프로토스가 이동하기 편한 넓은 경로 지역을 서플라이 디폿으로 막아 놓으며 바리케이트까지 쳤습니다. 탱크를 넓게 배치하면서 좁은 지역의 통로까지도 사거리가 닿도록 병력 배치를 완료했습니다.
◇11시 언덕 위 지역에 넥서스를 짓는 김택용. 자원 피해를 거의 받지 않았습니다.
그렇지만 김택용은 이미 10시 미네랄 확장 지역은 물론 11시 언덕 위까지 넥서스를 소환했고 프로브를 배치하며 자원을 채취하기 시작한 상황입니다. 게이트웨이는 대거 늘어나서 질럿을 한 부대씩 뽑아낼 시스템이 완비됐죠. 실제로 드라군으로 테란 병력의 전진을 언덕에서 막아낸 김택용은 아비터에 개스를 소모한 뒤 질럿만 충원했습니다.
김택용이 질럿을 뽑은 이유는 좁은 경로로 이동할 계획을 세웠기 때문이죠. 이영호가 넓은 통로를 서플라이 디폿으로 막아 놓았기에 반대쪽 길로 나가야 하는 상황이었습니다.
이영호는 내심 큰 통로로 김택용의 병력이 오길 바랐을 것입니다. 프로토스가 자신감을 앞세워 '객기'로 들이 받아줘야만 이영호가 확장 기지를 늘리고 병력을 충원할 시간을 벌기 때문입니다.
이영호의 뜻대로 김택용이 움직이지 않았다는 것이 문제라면 문제였습니다. 몇 기 되지 않는 질럿과 아비터를 동반해 좁은 길로 나선 김택용은 마인을 제거하며 포위 공격에 들어갑니다. 중앙 지역까지 질럿을 이동시켰고 띄엄띄엄 배치된 이영호의 탱크 사이로 파고 들며 자폭을 유도했죠. 아비터가 클로킹 필드를 제공하면서 이영호의 저지선은 금세 무너졌습니다.
이 공격 하나로 이영호의 패배가 확정됐다고 해도 무방합니다. 김택용이 마우스와 키보드에서 손을 떼고 엉덩이를 들썩인 이유이기도 하죠.
대장으로 출전했을 때 32연승을 달렸던 이영호라고 하더라도 맵이 주는 압박감과 치밀하게 작전을 전개한 김택용을 제압하기는 어려웠습니다. 김구현과의 박카스 스타리그 때보다 '아즈텍'에서 보여준 이영호의 플레이가 진일보했지만 어려움을 극복하기에는 제반 여건이 따라주지 않았던 것이죠
These are progamers we are talking about. And it is THE SWL FINALS. They prepare for EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING.
Given the scarcity of time and practice schedules, this is not possible. Choices must be made, what is prepared for and what is forgone to achieve the preparation, lest preparation for more possibilities be mediocre. You can often see this in the interviews where they admit that they didnt have time to prepare for map x or situation y.
That is not true. In Proleague matches the top 3-5 always prepare for ALL the maps, usually led by the one they slot for it. The interviews are mind games.
On April 12 2011 10:39 gongryong wrote: I've never fully understood condescending self-gratifying comments like this. So for the purposes of discussion, lets take up everything one by one:
On April 12 2011 03:16 oxidized wrote: Ugh, it's not that complicated guys.
What exactly does this mean? That you've got the whole thing figured out?
Thanks for responding! I admit I was being purposefully condescending in order to generate some response, although this is not quite the response I was expecting! It is not a tone I usually take, so take it as an experiment from me. Mainly I wanted someone to explain why this game is worthy of gameplay analysis on Aztec as opposed to any other TvP on Aztec. I feel like this whole thing is generating discussion because it was the final game of WL, not because it was actually insightful as a game itself.
Bisu went 8 pylon, 9 gate (cutting a probe) with the intention of making at least one zealot. Flash went rax CC. Both players did this prior to scouting their respective opponents.
Are you implying that the build should come after the scout?
No, I am pointing out choices from both players that come outside of the game, and are not related to internal gameplay. As I point out later, Bisu makes this particular choice to exploit Flash's play. This point was meant to imply that Bisu started with a build order advantage (in addition to late scouting from Flash), so a large contribution to Bisu's win comes from this.
Flash scouted late and did not see zealots coming beforehand. Bisu continued pumping zealots in reaction to seeing Flash's rax CC (as he predicted). Flash took major damage and fell behind during this time.
Anything afterwards is Bisu securing the win with his advantage and Flash failing to make a comeback.
Easy then. No! This is where those who mind what theyre talking about are separated from everyone else.
You might have to clarify your statement as I do not understand exactly what it means. But my point is that map-balance analysis is almost a moot point after this exchange. Even thought these are two of the best players in the history of Starcraft, map balance discussion is strained when one player is this far behind at the onset of the game. Sure, you can still talk a little bit about Aztec's map balance, but you should bring in other games to support a point; not just this one.
You could guess that Flash never wanted to play on Aztec but was forced due to KT's failure. It is unlikely that Flash had anything prepared for this map, so he just resorted to a build he was comfortable with.
These are progamers we are talking about. And it is THE SWL FINALS. They prepare for EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING.
I'm guessing you are joking here, but for the sake of completeness let me address this point anyways. Programers only have finite time to practice and therefore must partition their practice time into the most likely scenarios based on their expectations. KT did not expect this very much.
There is not much more you can conclude from this game; I don't get why people are seriously over-analyzing this.
Again, if its not your coffee, dont drink it. Some people have the ability to look past the superficial appearances and dwell happily on the minuscule details.
My problem is that you can't dwell on miniscule details and make overarching conclusions about gameplay and map balance. Sure, I love details as much as anyone else, but analysis beyond the zealot attack will need to be seriously in depth to break any ground. Some of the earlier posts in the thread sum up my opinion on the game best (FyRe_DragOn, renzy, etc)