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On June 15 2010 21:32 dhe95 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 11:52 saltywet wrote:On June 15 2010 11:37 dhe95 wrote:On June 15 2010 11:26 saltywet wrote:On June 15 2010 05:57 dhe95 wrote:eg 3 steal a high templar for storm upgrade, possibly + templar energy 2 DTs + mind control cost more than storm + energy, instead of getting mc you can get storm instead and not rely on luck (stormless ht drop anyone?) \ i only read this since i was waiting for someone to make this mistake ;3 2 dts + mind control = 450/400 storm + energy = 400/500, u forgot to add in cost of 1 templar xD (and he lose 50/150, so total difference is 0/250 since u make him lose worth of 1 HT) also, instead of stealing upgrades of course you also get a unit that u mced, it can allow u to cast a storm right in the middle of their army if ur fast enough, a reaver/shuttle takes a long time to build and if u mc it u also get a reaver/shuttle, there are more factors that affect the value of MC other than just cost You don't need energy upgrade for HTs, unless you want to add energy cost for dark archons too? You may be able to mc one ht, but the cost for the dark archon is 250/200, when one ht would cost 50/150. Dark archons are very weak, mc costs a lot of energy, and dark archons lose all their shields when they mc, meaning that dark archon will probably die pretty quickly. Even if you do get a storm, it would be much more worthwhile to tech to storms yourself. Reaver/shuttle is usually used in midgame PvP and are you saying you're going to be quick teching to mc when they go reaver/shuttle? There's a huge timing window in there in which you spent so much gas on a dark archon, and templar archives while you're waiting for energy to accumulate. It's not like going dark templars when you force your opponent to stay at his base to kill your dark templars, but instead he's allowed to march right to your base where you spent all your gas on a mind control upgrade that while waiting for energy. By the time you can mind control, chances are the reavers will be outside the shuttle killing your army already. i think you are thinking im suggesting a dark archon rush, which is not the case. bot you and the opponent are going to have a robotics bay for obs, templar archives for lategame anyways, so their cost should not factor into loss. the only cost should be the DTs and the MC upgrade, and even so DTs mid-late game will be useless if the enemy protoss builds cannons at all his bases, which is why im suggesting DA transition. if u manage to keep the DA alive in every case, but if u lose it then u have to consider the tradeoffs, and that depends on whether you think the 250/200 u spent on DTs are costs or are useless. u not only steal ability upgrades, you also gain a unit(s) and make your opponent lose unit(s). so say you manage to steal a shuttle with 1 reaver with shuttle speed, you gain 200/200 upgrade, 200 shuttle and 275/100 reaver, you also make your opponent lose 475/300 shuttle reaver. total damage/gain dealt by DA is 950/600 worth of resources and if you lose the DA u get 700/400 anyways in your favor. even if you dont make a robotics bay you can get shuttle speed, and you can then upgrade templar storm and do some speed shuttle templar drops yourself If you're not going for a dark archon rush, you should probably be getting shuttle speed too, or you'll be at a big disadvantage. Then once you do tech to templar archives, your opponent will get high templars, which is cheaper than dark archons, and storm costs less energy than mind control. When the other person sees a dark archon, chances are he will snipe it first. If you do mind control the shuttle with reavers both in it, then chances are you could've sniped it with dragoons. If you mind control during a battle, chances are storms would've already been cast, and you'd only be able to control one reaver for the cost of 1 dark archon and the research costs
players who skip reaver tech and go for long macro games sometimes dont get shuttle speed.
storm costs the same as mind control upgrade, and a dark archon is much harder to snipe due to its speed and range. when you MC a unit you have to take into consideration of opponent losses and your gains, so in reality MCing a high templar can really be argued if its cheaper than a dark archon. mind controlling a shuttle would be much better than sniping with dragoons, since its much harder to react to a mind control, and you may not have enough dragoons to snipe it once/your dragoons take damage trying to snipe shuttle
the only valid argument i think you made is the time to regenerate energy for an MC. and fair enough, since if MC was shorter it would be too good. but i really think that MC has so much more potential
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The mc idea/strategy for insta-research could be good at first, but having thought about it, its fundamentaly flawed (which is a shame, i'd love to see mc games). The problem is that for whatever research you steal, you need the units it applies to, else it makes little sense and you should go for the most expensive/crucial units. So if you want "free" shuttle speed, its pointless if you dont have a robo and bay for reaver and if you get it beforehand (or at some timing), you're vulnerable by spending so much on tech, and if you get it after, it'll be super long till you'll reap the rewards of getting mc in the first place. As a follow up to dt i think it could work in the right situations. I dont think it would be worth it on obs at all tho, you never know if your opponent brought a spare.
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I think this is totally viable.
Yes you will be behind in pure unit count but your opponent is going to be absolutely paranoid about using shuttle/reaver, templar, and possibly zealots (maelstrom).
He's also going to be paranoid about using archons, carriers, arbiters.. just because of mind control.
If he goes shuttle/reaver you'll have a chance at MC'ing it.
If he goes templar you'll have the opportunity to feedback 2-3 templar, or possibly maelstrom the whole group, well.. if you researched maelstrom.
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I sometimes upgrade mc after I've dt-rushed and have my dt's still alive and when I know my opponent goes reavers.
sometimes works well and sometimes it doesnt. you have to be quite carefull with your DA, it's just one shot 
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On June 16 2010 03:16 DuneBug wrote:
I think this is totally viable.
Yes you will be behind in pure unit count but your opponent is going to be absolutely paranoid about using shuttle/reaver, templar, and possibly zealots (maelstrom).
He's also going to be paranoid about using archons, carriers, arbiters.. just because of mind control.
If he goes shuttle/reaver you'll have a chance at MC'ing it.
If he goes templar you'll have the opportunity to feedback 2-3 templar, or possibly maelstrom the whole group, well.. if you researched maelstrom.
i havent thought about that.. maelstroming a clumped up group of templars and then storming them = win
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It's probably not optimal if you're a korean pro-gamer since no one there does it, but I think people should try out the first two abilities of the DA's since we are mostly not korean pro-gamers. I think MC would be great if you could steal a shuttle full of reavers or two and use them for yourself, but the occasions where this could happen are few. In addition, you kinda have to build a lot of DA's before your opponent gets carriers in order to get enough energy to mc them soon so that won't work.
Just try
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Hmmmm, wouldn't the timing be really off to actually MC the shuttle (waiting for full energy takes a looooong time), by that time your opponent would have been already able to take advantage of superior army...
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EPT
