the most popular use for da's are to feedback high templars, and in some old threads they've been suggested to steal reavers
if u can steal a shuttle+ reaver with an mc and keep the da, its 100% profit
but im thinking of whether using MC to steal upgrades would work, or using MC strategically
eg steal a shuttle/reaver with reaver shuttle/upgrades
eg 2 u didnt upgrade leg speed whereas your opponent does, right before a battle u mc their zealot and get leg speed immediately
eg 3 steal a high templar for storm upgrade, possibly + templar energy
eg 4 steal their observer and weaken their army with DTs until they get another ob/take out one of their far expansions bcause they cant get another ob there in time
eg 5 in late late game, MC an arbitor
the costs for DA and MC upgrade would be 450/400, and although for most of the examples it seems like a bad trade off like enemy HT with storm upgrade = only 200/350, but the thing is that this might be effective for follow ups after u do some damage with DT rush such as killing a few probes and forcing enemy cannons, or mind games because right before a critical battle u can get speed/storm upgrades immediately
also::: maelstrom costs 100/100, and in late game if you can maelstrom a clumped up group of HT then storm them, its like in pvz against mutas except HTs are much slower
Energy: 150 Range: 10 Effect-Radius: - Duration: - This spell will instantaneously place the targeted unit permanently under the control of the casting player. The Dark Archon's shields are reduced to 0. It is important to note that the casting player will receive all ability upgrades the stolen unit had, making Mind Control potentially powerful in a PvP game. For example, Mind Controlling an Arbiter which has researched Stasis Field will grant that ability to all Arbiters owned by the Mind Controlling player. Weapons, Armor, and Plasma Shield upgrades are not transferable in this manner. Mind Controled units can cap over the 200 max suply count.
I'm doubtful of DA for Mind Control, but I like it for feedback if the opponent skips Reavers for quick Templar. With 1-2 DA suppressing the energy-heavy templar, my Reavers can clean up.
On June 14 2010 03:52 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: the problem is finding targets of opportunity, and not dying instantly because the gas you wasted on DAs werent spent on crucial storms or archons.
its harder to MC a shuttle full of crap than you'd think
Try playing a cpu in PvP and letting it get 4-5 bases and then see how annoying the DAs' MC is. It is really why I play the cpu sometimes, because it gets really annoying to be trying to recall in their base and end up with them recalling in yours.
edit: a good player can keep their DA alive longer than the cpu, and the cpu can keep it alive pretty long sometimes.
On June 14 2010 03:52 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: the problem is finding targets of opportunity, and not dying instantly because the gas you wasted on DAs werent spent on crucial storms or archons.
its harder to MC a shuttle full of crap than you'd think
Try playing a cpu in PvP and letting it get 4-5 bases and then see how annoying the DAs' MC is. It is really why I play the cpu sometimes, because it gets really annoying to be trying to recall in their base and end up with them recalling in yours.
edit: a good player can keep their DA alive longer than the cpu, and the cpu can keep it alive pretty long sometimes.
but recalls arent effective in multiplayer pvp at all. the gas cost basically means you just wasted 4-5 storms. and if the arbiter tech gets scouted, its the simple matter of making a single DA to feedback the incoming arbiter. the cloaking field isnt effective either, since there are usually observers to help fight dts anyways.
and basically all you're saying is that you need better multitasking. it really isnt very hard to stop a recall. and if you need a recall to break a computer, you're doing something wrong.
On June 14 2010 03:52 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: the problem is finding targets of opportunity, and not dying instantly because the gas you wasted on DAs werent spent on crucial storms or archons.
its harder to MC a shuttle full of crap than you'd think
Try playing a cpu in PvP and letting it get 4-5 bases and then see how annoying the DAs' MC is. It is really why I play the cpu sometimes, because it gets really annoying to be trying to recall in their base and end up with them recalling in yours.
edit: a good player can keep their DA alive longer than the cpu, and the cpu can keep it alive pretty long sometimes.
but recalls arent effective in multiplayer pvp at all. the gas cost basically means you just wasted 4-5 storms. and if the arbiter tech gets scouted, its the simple matter of making a single DA to feedback the incoming arbiter. the cloaking field isnt effective either, since there are usually observers to help fight dts anyways.
and basically all you're saying is that you need better multitasking. it really isnt very hard to stop a recall. and if you need a recall to break a computer, you're doing something wrong.
It was just an example. I don't use arbiters, I use archons and carriers (either mass archon/zeal or mass carrier/ wtf other units I have resources for) in PvP late game.
On June 14 2010 03:52 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: the problem is finding targets of opportunity, and not dying instantly because the gas you wasted on DAs werent spent on crucial storms or archons.
its harder to MC a shuttle full of crap than you'd think
Try playing a cpu in PvP and letting it get 4-5 bases and then see how annoying the DAs' MC is. It is really why I play the cpu sometimes, because it gets really annoying to be trying to recall in their base and end up with them recalling in yours.
edit: a good player can keep their DA alive longer than the cpu, and the cpu can keep it alive pretty long sometimes.
but recalls arent effective in multiplayer pvp at all. the gas cost basically means you just wasted 4-5 storms. and if the arbiter tech gets scouted, its the simple matter of making a single DA to feedback the incoming arbiter. the cloaking field isnt effective either, since there are usually observers to help fight dts anyways.
and basically all you're saying is that you need better multitasking. it really isnt very hard to stop a recall. and if you need a recall to break a computer, you're doing something wrong.
It was just an example. I don't use arbiters, I use archons and carriers (either mass archon/zeal or mass carrier/ wtf other units I have resources for) in PvP late game.
Carriers? Are those even viable PvP at all? Seems like there are a bunch of options against them, whether its stasis, storms, and, I think; MC and scouts are also cost effective against carriers.
I just can't see carriers are being that indtimidating PvP, unless you just get suprised and 6 or more come out of nowhere.
On June 14 2010 03:52 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: the problem is finding targets of opportunity, and not dying instantly because the gas you wasted on DAs werent spent on crucial storms or archons.
its harder to MC a shuttle full of crap than you'd think
Try playing a cpu in PvP and letting it get 4-5 bases and then see how annoying the DAs' MC is. It is really why I play the cpu sometimes, because it gets really annoying to be trying to recall in their base and end up with them recalling in yours.
edit: a good player can keep their DA alive longer than the cpu, and the cpu can keep it alive pretty long sometimes.
but recalls arent effective in multiplayer pvp at all. the gas cost basically means you just wasted 4-5 storms. and if the arbiter tech gets scouted, its the simple matter of making a single DA to feedback the incoming arbiter. the cloaking field isnt effective either, since there are usually observers to help fight dts anyways.
and basically all you're saying is that you need better multitasking. it really isnt very hard to stop a recall. and if you need a recall to break a computer, you're doing something wrong.
It was just an example. I don't use arbiters, I use archons and carriers (either mass archon/zeal or mass carrier/ wtf other units I have resources for) in PvP late game.
Carriers? Are those even viable PvP at all? Seems like there are a bunch of options against them, whether its stasis, storms, and, I think; MC and scouts are also cost effective against carriers.
I just can't see carriers are being that indtimidating PvP, unless you just get suprised and 6 or more come out of nowhere.
let me introduce you to my favorite PvP of all time:
It's actually really not a bad strategy imo. You open with a dt rush. If it works, you win, good job. If he gets an observer, keep your 2 dark templars alive and do your normal transition.
But why not also just morph the 2 dark templars into a DA? Against good players, the dark templars don't have much use once they have observers out (since most good players would be wary of DT drops and DT sneak-ins). If your opponent goes reaver tech, you can MC the reaver/shuttle+reaver. If he goes HT tech, you have a DA to feedback with, or you can MC one of their high templars for free psi storm research (maybe get extra energy upgrade as a bonus)
It probably has no place in a professional game... but up to, I would say, C level iccup, it has potential.
Carriers are viable in PvP if the map is convenient for them, because Protoss doesn't have any clean counters. Mind Control works great, but that's a 150 mana spell on an expensive unit. Scouts are OK, but require almost as many resources committed as the Carriers to counter them. Dragoons don't have the range, unless there's too much open space for carriers to be effective in the first place, and Psionic Storm is painful but expensive and somewhat limited.
However, on most maps you will either die while teching Carriers, or be stuck with one base and unable to match your opponent's economy. I'm pretty sure Carriers are only viable in PvP on island maps, very-long-ground-but-short-air-rush-distance maps, or maps with backyard expansions.
On June 14 2010 04:53 blabber wrote: It's actually really not a bad strategy imo. You open with a dt rush. If it works, you win, good job. If he gets an observer, keep your 2 dark templars alive and do your normal transition.
But why not also just morph the 2 dark templars into a DA? Against good players, the dark templars don't have much use once they have observers out (since most good players would be wary of DT drops and DT sneak-ins). If your opponent goes reaver tech, you can MC the reaver/shuttle+reaver. If he goes HT tech, you have a DA to feedback with, or you can MC one of their high templars for free psi storm research (maybe get extra energy upgrade as a bonus)
It probably has no place in a professional game... but up to, I would say, C level iccup, it has potential.
Like you said if the DT's get there and there are observers, then there definately is a point in making them into a DA. Maelstrom, while seemingly weak, can really disrupt a zealot charge. Having your Zealots be able to take out half of their zealot's health before they can finally retreat or something is absolutely huge. Also, if they went observer first they probably want to get more Reavers since they only need one more building, so at that point a mind control of a slow/shuttle that lost it's momentum shuttle can really piss them off (they either kill it, which is probably one wave of goon shots wasted, or you get a pretty reaver and potentially save yourself other upgrades that they might have gotten).
my brother has played 5 games on Blood Bath(b.net btw) and his opponent was teching to them to and it was a bo5 they had agreed to and they both teched to it at around the same time and had an awesome micro-intensive game where his opponent actually got an arbiter to cloak his carriers and stasis his opponent's carriers. It was a long time ago(like 1.14 I think) so they are both better than they were before but it was still a cool game and showed that any type of game can be played on Blood Bath. It also showed that carriers are always an effective way to create a great game.
On June 14 2010 06:39 Severedevil wrote: Carriers are viable in PvP if the map is convenient for them, because Protoss doesn't have any clean counters. Mind Control works great, but that's a 150 mana spell on an expensive unit. Scouts are OK, but require almost as many resources committed as the Carriers to counter them. Dragoons don't have the range, unless there's too much open space for carriers to be effective in the first place, and Psionic Storm is painful but expensive and somewhat limited.
However, on most maps you will either die while teching Carriers, or be stuck with one base and unable to match your opponent's economy. I'm pretty sure Carriers are only viable in PvP on island maps, very-long-ground-but-short-air-rush-distance maps, or maps with backyard expansions.
even on island-esque maps it is hard to win with
Scouts work because they cost less (half the amount of gas), build faster, and use up less food
haha dark archons are pretty awesome. i think i actually used a dark templar opening -> expand with cannons/speed zealots + mind control shuttle (reavers are definitely a bonus) and push out as soon as 1+ finishes. it obviously doesn't work versus good players though but up to a certain level it's a lot of fun.
carriers are not used in pvp besides a few special circumstances e.g. a stall game with mass cannons everywhere or some type of island map (non-existant in competitive gaming scene).
dark archons pvp.. maybe mind control if he has a speed shuttle and reavers. that would be worth it. stealing a templar or a zealot or a dragoon to get that units ability (storm or legs or range) would cost you more than to upgrade it yourself so its really rhetorical. maybe you could do a maelstorm timing attack or something like that. maybe go for a dt rush and follow it with a mind control / 4 gate goon all in where you mc a goon to get range on your goons. build 3 dts, morph 2 and pressure with the other one while following with mc and goons. gas might be too low to be possible though. idk
On June 14 2010 07:39 3FFA wrote: my brother has played 5 games on Blood Bath(b.net btw) and his opponent was teching to them to and it was a bo5 they had agreed to and they both teched to it at around the same time and had an awesome micro-intensive game where his opponent actually got an arbiter to cloak his carriers and stasis his opponent's carriers. It was a long time ago(like 1.14 I think) so they are both better than they were before but it was still a cool game and showed that any type of game can be played on Blood Bath. It also showed that carriers are always an effective way to create a great game.
User was warned for this post
Why was this post warned? lol nothing offensive here
On June 14 2010 07:39 3FFA wrote: my brother has played 5 games on Blood Bath(b.net btw) and his opponent was teching to them to and it was a bo5 they had agreed to and they both teched to it at around the same time and had an awesome micro-intensive game where his opponent actually got an arbiter to cloak his carriers and stasis his opponent's carriers. It was a long time ago(like 1.14 I think) so they are both better than they were before but it was still a cool game and showed that any type of game can be played on Blood Bath. It also showed that carriers are always an effective way to create a great game.
User was warned for this post
Why was this post warned? lol nothing offensive here
I am guessing its because it was off topic and arbiter carrier is a noob build that is not making a point.
On June 14 2010 08:22 OneOther wrote: haha dark archons are pretty awesome. i think i actually used a dark templar opening -> expand with cannons/speed zealots + mind control shuttle (reavers are definitely a bonus) and push out as soon as 1+ finishes. it obviously doesn't work versus good players though but up to a certain level it's a lot of fun.
carriers are not used in pvp besides a few special circumstances e.g. a stall game with mass cannons everywhere or some type of island map (non-existant in competitive gaming scene).
It's one of those high risk high reward situations. Since DA's are anticasters and are completely dependent on your opponent given you the opportunity to steal/feedback stuff it makes them pretty opportunistic. I've always thought they had a place in the matchup, particularly in longer PvPs or in Templar heavy PvPs, but realistically they're too difficult to pull off consistently.
Which is kinda sad considering they're a cool unit :3
On June 14 2010 08:22 OneOther wrote: haha dark archons are pretty awesome. i think i actually used a dark templar opening -> expand with cannons/speed zealots + mind control shuttle (reavers are definitely a bonus) and push out as soon as 1+ finishes. it obviously doesn't work versus good players though but up to a certain level it's a lot of fun.
carriers are not used in pvp besides a few special circumstances e.g. a stall game with mass cannons everywhere or some type of island map (non-existant in competitive gaming scene).
It's one of those high risk high reward situations. Since DA's are anticasters and are completely dependent on your opponent given you the opportunity to steal/feedback stuff it makes them pretty opportunistic. I've always thought they had a place in the matchup, particularly in longer PvPs or in Templar heavy PvPs, but realistically they're too difficult to pull off consistently.
Which is kinda sad considering they're a cool unit :3
Not just are they cool, but they float, are an awesome shade of red, and you can barely understand them over the sound of how bad ass they are.
On a serious-er note, mind controlling Templars pisses people off like crazy, but feedbacking 3 of them rages them like crazy, I think their range is definately up to feed back Templars (and it's a faster cast I think too...
Just checked range and DA is 10 while Templars are 9, and cuz high templar need to stop and then cast, you might be able to do a shift-cast on templars with a retreat command. Even if you don't get to cast the storms, having up to 600 gas go to a complete waste is absolutely huge.
Hard to pull off yes, but can be oh so worth it (especially after a rebuffed DT rush).
Dark Archons are also fast. If you can somehow manage not to have high templar on the ground, your army will move 50% faster, which is pretty sweet.
That's probably only a big deal if you invested deeply enough into Shuttle/Reaver that you have speed shuttles, but even if you do have templar on the ground, Dark Archon's speed + durability + range makes it pretty easy to snipe templar.
if u can steal a shuttle+ reaver with an mc and keep the da, its 100% profit
If you can get a dark archon in range of it to mind control it and not lose either the new shuttle of the dark archon, chances are your dragoons could've been able to snipe the shuttle
eg steal a shuttle/reaver with reaver shuttle/upgrades
Nobody gets reaver upgrades and spending money on dark mind control + 2 archons is more expensive than spend money on robotics support and shuttle speed (if you want the upgrade, you are going to make shuttles and reavers, right?), it also means your reaver tech will be delayed since you went templar first, that it might just be better to skip reaver tech and go straight for storms.
eg 2 u didnt upgrade leg speed whereas your opponent does, right before a battle u mc their zealot and get leg speed immediately
Mind control + DTs cost more than leg speed upgrade. Chances are you'll lose that dark archon in the battle
eg 3 steal a high templar for storm upgrade, possibly + templar energy
2 DTs + mind control cost more than storm + energy, instead of getting mc you can get storm instead and not rely on luck (stormless ht drop anyone?)
eg 4 steal their observer and weaken their army with DTs until they get another ob/take out one of their far expansions bcause they cant get another ob there in time
Again, I highly doubt you can get a dark archon and observer in range of their observer and pull off a mind control, and even after that chances are low that they'll have only one observer
eg 5 in late late game, MC an arbitor
lol. if you get to lategame when arbiters are preferred over high templars, then sure go ahead, but you should only try it once you anticipate arbiters coming
the costs for DA and MC upgrade would be 450/400, and although for most of the examples it seems like a bad trade off like enemy HT with storm upgrade = only 200/350, but the thing is that this might be effective for follow ups after u do some damage with DT rush such as killing a few probes and forcing enemy cannons, or mind games because right before a critical battle u can get speed/storm upgrades immediately
If you're harassing with DTs, chances are you will either win the game or lose their DTs. If you get dts into an undefended base, for example, you kill everything. If he puts up cannons, you kill the cannons. If the cannons go up or they end up getting an obs, your dts basically die. You haven't been harassing enough if your DTs can make it out alive
This is very risky and very difficult to pull off. Obviously, If you open DTs, your opponent opens reavers and then you MC a shuttle with 2 reavers, you will be in great shape, but I think most of the time something is gonna go wrong. The only time I saw this build used was by Movie in the OSL and it showed exactly what happens if you just have bad luck. + Show Spoiler +
On June 14 2010 07:39 3FFA wrote: my brother has played 5 games on Blood Bath(b.net btw) and his opponent was teching to them to and it was a bo5 they had agreed to and they both teched to it at around the same time and had an awesome micro-intensive game where his opponent actually got an arbiter to cloak his carriers and stasis his opponent's carriers. It was a long time ago(like 1.14 I think) so they are both better than they were before but it was still a cool game and showed that any type of game can be played on Blood Bath. It also showed that carriers are always an effective way to create a great game.
User was warned for this post
Why was this post warned? lol nothing offensive here
I am guessing its because it was off topic and arbiter carrier is a noob build that is not making a point.
But being noob should not be a ban-able offense. and it was on topic, some guy mentioned using carriers I think lol
The BW strategy forum is unique relative to the other forums in that sharing bad advice is something that can get you banned from posting in the sub-forum, which is what happened to 3FFA (this is not his first offense, btw). SC2 strategy will evolve to be the same thing, eventually, but right now hardly anyone knows what they're saying, so we're a bit more forgiving there.
The reason we moderate the strategy forums in this way is that we'd like our strategy forums to be a valuable resource for finding competitively viable information. If someone searches for "Dark Archon usage" and they find a thread about cloaked carriers on Bloodbath, they will have wasted their time. So we try to discourage irrelevant stuff like that.
I hope this has answered your off-topic question, mkchoi0801. Please trust that our decisions are not completely arbitrary and try to stay on-topic. Thanks.
On June 14 2010 03:52 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: the problem is finding targets of opportunity, and not dying instantly because the gas you wasted on DAs werent spent on crucial storms or archons.
its harder to MC a shuttle full of crap than you'd think
i think the biggest problem is being lazy and having your DA sniped
DA's rock. Any attempt to use them more often will be met by my applause. High life and speed yields low snipability. Feedback is useful when you don't get an opportunity to use the other spells effectively since all good opponents will get casters eventually or be punished by your storms.
I haven't really used them in pvp, but I have obsed the games of a player who has. I think he had a great opportunity at one point to maelstrom incoming zealots and then place a couple reaver shots or storms in them.
Though due to the high vespene cost of da's and ht's you will probably want to go a little zealot heavier than usual. Will you open with templar archives, get two dts to see if you can harass, then retreat back for a da if you cant? seems like a good fallback.
In addition, you're kinda relient on your opponent's tech. What if your opponent doesn't upgrade leg speed on zealots and you build a lot of them? I think you should tech leg speed regardless since it will be very key.
On June 15 2010 08:23 antrax wrote: What about using DA's feedback to nullify high templar counter to reaver heavy army.
This is the most normal use, as far as I can tell. Certainly that's how I prefer to use them - if I have much more reavers than my opponent, but he gets templar earlier, I'd rather get DA and snipe his high-energy Templars instead of trying to play High-Templar catchup.
Now, I probably wouldn't get more than two Dark Archons for that purpose, and I would add High Templars afterward because Psionic Storm is so good, but it's not much fun to have a window where you have maybe two storms total and the opponent has like ten.
EDIT: If you open DTs, though, I'm not convinced you can just retreat and morph a dark archon if the opponent is prepared for your harass. Usually a crucial part of a DT opening is to leave a DT in position to sneak into the opponent's main if he moves out (and possibly another to delay his third) so that your opponent can't kill you before your storms are up, or expand like a balloon while you're scrambling for your speedlot/templar army.
eg 3 steal a high templar for storm upgrade, possibly + templar energy
2 DTs + mind control cost more than storm + energy, instead of getting mc you can get storm instead and not rely on luck (stormless ht drop anyone?) \
i only read this since i was waiting for someone to make this mistake ;3
2 dts + mind control = 450/400
storm + energy = 400/500, u forgot to add in cost of 1 templar xD (and he lose 50/150, so total difference is 0/250 since u make him lose worth of 1 HT)
also, instead of stealing upgrades of course you also get a unit that u mced, it can allow u to cast a storm right in the middle of their army if ur fast enough, a reaver/shuttle takes a long time to build and if u mc it u also get a reaver/shuttle, there are more factors that affect the value of MC other than just cost
eg 3 steal a high templar for storm upgrade, possibly + templar energy
2 DTs + mind control cost more than storm + energy, instead of getting mc you can get storm instead and not rely on luck (stormless ht drop anyone?) \
i only read this since i was waiting for someone to make this mistake ;3
2 dts + mind control = 450/400
storm + energy = 400/500, u forgot to add in cost of 1 templar xD (and he lose 50/150, so total difference is 0/250 since u make him lose worth of 1 HT)
also, instead of stealing upgrades of course you also get a unit that u mced, it can allow u to cast a storm right in the middle of their army if ur fast enough, a reaver/shuttle takes a long time to build and if u mc it u also get a reaver/shuttle, there are more factors that affect the value of MC other than just cost
You don't need energy upgrade for HTs, unless you want to add energy cost for dark archons too?
You may be able to mc one ht, but the cost for the dark archon is 250/200, when one ht would cost 50/150. Dark archons are very weak, mc costs a lot of energy, and dark archons lose all their shields when they mc, meaning that dark archon will probably die pretty quickly. Even if you do get a storm, it would be much more worthwhile to tech to storms yourself.
Reaver/shuttle is usually used in midgame PvP and are you saying you're going to be quick teching to mc when they go reaver/shuttle? There's a huge timing window in there in which you spent so much gas on a dark archon, mc, citadel, and templar archives while you're waiting for energy to accumulate. It's not like going dark templars when you force your opponent to stay at his base to kill your dark templars, but instead he's allowed to march right to your base where you spent all your gas on a mind control upgrade that while waiting for energy. By the time you can mind control, chances are the reavers will be outside the shuttle killing your army already.
But the thing is, if i see my opponent has a DA, i would try to snipe it before it does anything or i guard my important units FOR AIUR WITH MY LIFE. so it'll be hard to do anything methinks.
eg 3 steal a high templar for storm upgrade, possibly + templar energy
2 DTs + mind control cost more than storm + energy, instead of getting mc you can get storm instead and not rely on luck (stormless ht drop anyone?) \
i only read this since i was waiting for someone to make this mistake ;3
2 dts + mind control = 450/400
storm + energy = 400/500, u forgot to add in cost of 1 templar xD (and he lose 50/150, so total difference is 0/250 since u make him lose worth of 1 HT)
also, instead of stealing upgrades of course you also get a unit that u mced, it can allow u to cast a storm right in the middle of their army if ur fast enough, a reaver/shuttle takes a long time to build and if u mc it u also get a reaver/shuttle, there are more factors that affect the value of MC other than just cost
You don't need energy upgrade for HTs, unless you want to add energy cost for dark archons too?
You may be able to mc one ht, but the cost for the dark archon is 250/200, when one ht would cost 50/150. Dark archons are very weak, mc costs a lot of energy, and dark archons lose all their shields when they mc, meaning that dark archon will probably die pretty quickly. Even if you do get a storm, it would be much more worthwhile to tech to storms yourself.
Reaver/shuttle is usually used in midgame PvP and are you saying you're going to be quick teching to mc when they go reaver/shuttle? There's a huge timing window in there in which you spent so much gas on a dark archon, mc, citadel, and templar archives while you're waiting for energy to accumulate. It's not like going dark templars when you force your opponent to stay at his base to kill your dark templars, but instead he's allowed to march right to your base where you spent all your gas on a mind control upgrade that while waiting for energy. By the time you can mind control, chances are the reavers will be outside the shuttle killing your army already.
i think you are thinking im suggesting a dark archon rush, which is not the case. midgame, bot you and the opponent are going to have a robotics bay for obs, templar archives for lategame anyways, so their cost should not factor into loss. the only cost should be the DTs and the MC upgrade, and even so DTs mid-late game will be useless if the enemy protoss builds cannons at all his bases, which is why im suggesting DA transition.
if u manage to keep the DA alive in every case, there is no trade, but if u lose it then u have to consider the tradeoffs, and that depends on whether you think the 250/200 u spent on DTs are costs or are useless. now when you MC, u not only steal ability upgrades, you also gain a unit(s) and make your opponent lose unit(s). so say you manage to steal a shuttle with 1 reaver with shuttle speed, you gain 200/200 upgrade, 200 shuttle and 275/100 reaver, you also make your opponent lose 475/300 shuttle reaver. total damage/gain dealt by DA is 950/600 worth of resources and if you lose the DA u get 700/400 anyways in your favor. even if you dont make a robotics bay you can get shuttle speed, and you can then upgrade templar storm and do some speed shuttle templar drops yourself
about the leg speed thing, yeah instead of spending 150/150 on the research, ima spend 125/Shitloadofgas (X2) on dts to morph into an archon, then ima spend 150/150 to research MC. Chances are if you tech to dark archons too fast, you'll get owned by 2 gate reaver, not giving you enough time to get the actual research and energy up. Feedback thing is impressive though, it may pay off if you get enough HT kills. A game I remember with feedback in PvP (that's actually modern) is I THINK M18 vs mOvie on MatchPoint, I know it was M18, not sure about the other person being mOvie
Mind Control definitely grants you upgrades of spells. Discovered this when stealing an arbitor before I even had the Tribunal myself. When I finally built it I didn't have to research recall. I didn't know though that the upgrade steals don't count for forge/air cybercore upgrades. I'm going to check on this just to be sure because it really does affect the cost effectiveness of Dark Archons in PvP.
eg 3 steal a high templar for storm upgrade, possibly + templar energy
2 DTs + mind control cost more than storm + energy, instead of getting mc you can get storm instead and not rely on luck (stormless ht drop anyone?) \
i only read this since i was waiting for someone to make this mistake ;3
2 dts + mind control = 450/400
storm + energy = 400/500, u forgot to add in cost of 1 templar xD (and he lose 50/150, so total difference is 0/250 since u make him lose worth of 1 HT)
also, instead of stealing upgrades of course you also get a unit that u mced, it can allow u to cast a storm right in the middle of their army if ur fast enough, a reaver/shuttle takes a long time to build and if u mc it u also get a reaver/shuttle, there are more factors that affect the value of MC other than just cost
You don't need energy upgrade for HTs, unless you want to add energy cost for dark archons too?
You may be able to mc one ht, but the cost for the dark archon is 250/200, when one ht would cost 50/150. Dark archons are very weak, mc costs a lot of energy, and dark archons lose all their shields when they mc, meaning that dark archon will probably die pretty quickly. Even if you do get a storm, it would be much more worthwhile to tech to storms yourself.
Reaver/shuttle is usually used in midgame PvP and are you saying you're going to be quick teching to mc when they go reaver/shuttle? There's a huge timing window in there in which you spent so much gas on a dark archon, and templar archives while you're waiting for energy to accumulate. It's not like going dark templars when you force your opponent to stay at his base to kill your dark templars, but instead he's allowed to march right to your base where you spent all your gas on a mind control upgrade that while waiting for energy. By the time you can mind control, chances are the reavers will be outside the shuttle killing your army already.
i think you are thinking im suggesting a dark archon rush, which is not the case. bot you and the opponent are going to have a robotics bay for obs, templar archives for lategame anyways, so their cost should not factor into loss. the only cost should be the DTs and the MC upgrade, and even so DTs mid-late game will be useless if the enemy protoss builds cannons at all his bases, which is why im suggesting DA transition.
if u manage to keep the DA alive in every case, but if u lose it then u have to consider the tradeoffs, and that depends on whether you think the 250/200 u spent on DTs are costs or are useless. u not only steal ability upgrades, you also gain a unit(s) and make your opponent lose unit(s). so say you manage to steal a shuttle with 1 reaver with shuttle speed, you gain 200/200 upgrade, 200 shuttle and 275/100 reaver, you also make your opponent lose 475/300 shuttle reaver. total damage/gain dealt by DA is 950/600 worth of resources and if you lose the DA u get 700/400 anyways in your favor. even if you dont make a robotics bay you can get shuttle speed, and you can then upgrade templar storm and do some speed shuttle templar drops yourself
If you're not going for a dark archon rush, you should probably be getting shuttle speed too, or you'll be at a big disadvantage. Then once you do tech to templar archives, your opponent will get high templars, which is cheaper than dark archons, and storm costs less energy than mind control. When the other person sees a dark archon, chances are he will snipe it first. If you do mind control the shuttle with reavers both in it, then chances are you could've sniped it with dragoons. If you mind control during a battle, chances are storms would've already been cast, and you'd only be able to control one reaver for the cost of 1 dark archon and the research costs
eg 3 steal a high templar for storm upgrade, possibly + templar energy
2 DTs + mind control cost more than storm + energy, instead of getting mc you can get storm instead and not rely on luck (stormless ht drop anyone?) \
i only read this since i was waiting for someone to make this mistake ;3
2 dts + mind control = 450/400
storm + energy = 400/500, u forgot to add in cost of 1 templar xD (and he lose 50/150, so total difference is 0/250 since u make him lose worth of 1 HT)
also, instead of stealing upgrades of course you also get a unit that u mced, it can allow u to cast a storm right in the middle of their army if ur fast enough, a reaver/shuttle takes a long time to build and if u mc it u also get a reaver/shuttle, there are more factors that affect the value of MC other than just cost
You don't need energy upgrade for HTs, unless you want to add energy cost for dark archons too?
You may be able to mc one ht, but the cost for the dark archon is 250/200, when one ht would cost 50/150. Dark archons are very weak, mc costs a lot of energy, and dark archons lose all their shields when they mc, meaning that dark archon will probably die pretty quickly. Even if you do get a storm, it would be much more worthwhile to tech to storms yourself.
Reaver/shuttle is usually used in midgame PvP and are you saying you're going to be quick teching to mc when they go reaver/shuttle? There's a huge timing window in there in which you spent so much gas on a dark archon, and templar archives while you're waiting for energy to accumulate. It's not like going dark templars when you force your opponent to stay at his base to kill your dark templars, but instead he's allowed to march right to your base where you spent all your gas on a mind control upgrade that while waiting for energy. By the time you can mind control, chances are the reavers will be outside the shuttle killing your army already.
i think you are thinking im suggesting a dark archon rush, which is not the case. bot you and the opponent are going to have a robotics bay for obs, templar archives for lategame anyways, so their cost should not factor into loss. the only cost should be the DTs and the MC upgrade, and even so DTs mid-late game will be useless if the enemy protoss builds cannons at all his bases, which is why im suggesting DA transition.
if u manage to keep the DA alive in every case, but if u lose it then u have to consider the tradeoffs, and that depends on whether you think the 250/200 u spent on DTs are costs or are useless. u not only steal ability upgrades, you also gain a unit(s) and make your opponent lose unit(s). so say you manage to steal a shuttle with 1 reaver with shuttle speed, you gain 200/200 upgrade, 200 shuttle and 275/100 reaver, you also make your opponent lose 475/300 shuttle reaver. total damage/gain dealt by DA is 950/600 worth of resources and if you lose the DA u get 700/400 anyways in your favor. even if you dont make a robotics bay you can get shuttle speed, and you can then upgrade templar storm and do some speed shuttle templar drops yourself
If you're not going for a dark archon rush, you should probably be getting shuttle speed too, or you'll be at a big disadvantage. Then once you do tech to templar archives, your opponent will get high templars, which is cheaper than dark archons, and storm costs less energy than mind control. When the other person sees a dark archon, chances are he will snipe it first. If you do mind control the shuttle with reavers both in it, then chances are you could've sniped it with dragoons. If you mind control during a battle, chances are storms would've already been cast, and you'd only be able to control one reaver for the cost of 1 dark archon and the research costs
players who skip reaver tech and go for long macro games sometimes dont get shuttle speed. storm costs the same as mind control upgrade, and a dark archon is much harder to snipe due to its speed and range. when you MC a unit you have to take into consideration of opponent losses and your gains, so in reality MCing a high templar can really be argued if its cheaper than a dark archon. mind controlling a shuttle would be much better than sniping with dragoons, since its much harder to react to a mind control, and you may not have enough dragoons to snipe it once/your dragoons take damage trying to snipe shuttle
the only valid argument i think you made is the time to regenerate energy for an MC. and fair enough, since if MC was shorter it would be too good. but i really think that MC has so much more potential
The mc idea/strategy for insta-research could be good at first, but having thought about it, its fundamentaly flawed (which is a shame, i'd love to see mc games). The problem is that for whatever research you steal, you need the units it applies to, else it makes little sense and you should go for the most expensive/crucial units. So if you want "free" shuttle speed, its pointless if you dont have a robo and bay for reaver and if you get it beforehand (or at some timing), you're vulnerable by spending so much on tech, and if you get it after, it'll be super long till you'll reap the rewards of getting mc in the first place. As a follow up to dt i think it could work in the right situations. I dont think it would be worth it on obs at all tho, you never know if your opponent brought a spare.
Yes you will be behind in pure unit count but your opponent is going to be absolutely paranoid about using shuttle/reaver, templar, and possibly zealots (maelstrom). He's also going to be paranoid about using archons, carriers, arbiters.. just because of mind control.
If he goes shuttle/reaver you'll have a chance at MC'ing it. If he goes templar you'll have the opportunity to feedback 2-3 templar, or possibly maelstrom the whole group, well.. if you researched maelstrom.
I sometimes upgrade mc after I've dt-rushed and have my dt's still alive and when I know my opponent goes reavers. sometimes works well and sometimes it doesnt. you have to be quite carefull with your DA, it's just one shot
On June 16 2010 03:16 DuneBug wrote: I think this is totally viable.
Yes you will be behind in pure unit count but your opponent is going to be absolutely paranoid about using shuttle/reaver, templar, and possibly zealots (maelstrom). He's also going to be paranoid about using archons, carriers, arbiters.. just because of mind control.
If he goes shuttle/reaver you'll have a chance at MC'ing it. If he goes templar you'll have the opportunity to feedback 2-3 templar, or possibly maelstrom the whole group, well.. if you researched maelstrom.
i havent thought about that.. maelstroming a clumped up group of templars and then storming them = win
It's probably not optimal if you're a korean pro-gamer since no one there does it, but I think people should try out the first two abilities of the DA's since we are mostly not korean pro-gamers. I think MC would be great if you could steal a shuttle full of reavers or two and use them for yourself, but the occasions where this could happen are few. In addition, you kinda have to build a lot of DA's before your opponent gets carriers in order to get enough energy to mc them soon so that won't work.
Hmmmm, wouldn't the timing be really off to actually MC the shuttle (waiting for full energy takes a looooong time), by that time your opponent would have been already able to take advantage of superior army...
EPT
