the most popular use for da's are to feedback high templars, and in some old threads they've been suggested to steal reavers
if u can steal a shuttle+ reaver with an mc and keep the da, its 100% profit
but im thinking of whether using MC to steal upgrades would work, or using MC strategically
eg steal a shuttle/reaver with reaver shuttle/upgrades
eg 2 u didnt upgrade leg speed whereas your opponent does, right before a battle u mc their zealot and get leg speed immediately
eg 3 steal a high templar for storm upgrade, possibly + templar energy
eg 4 steal their observer and weaken their army with DTs until they get another ob/take out one of their far expansions bcause they cant get another ob there in time
eg 5 in late late game, MC an arbitor
the costs for DA and MC upgrade would be 450/400, and although for most of the examples it seems like a bad trade off like enemy HT with storm upgrade = only 200/350, but the thing is that this might be effective for follow ups after u do some damage with DT rush such as killing a few probes and forcing enemy cannons, or mind games because right before a critical battle u can get speed/storm upgrades immediately
also::: maelstrom costs 100/100, and in late game if you can maelstrom a clumped up group of HT then storm them, its like in pvz against mutas except HTs are much slower
Energy: 150 Range: 10 Effect-Radius: - Duration: - This spell will instantaneously place the targeted unit permanently under the control of the casting player. The Dark Archon's shields are reduced to 0. It is important to note that the casting player will receive all ability upgrades the stolen unit had, making Mind Control potentially powerful in a PvP game. For example, Mind Controlling an Arbiter which has researched Stasis Field will grant that ability to all Arbiters owned by the Mind Controlling player. Weapons, Armor, and Plasma Shield upgrades are not transferable in this manner. Mind Controled units can cap over the 200 max suply count.
I'm doubtful of DA for Mind Control, but I like it for feedback if the opponent skips Reavers for quick Templar. With 1-2 DA suppressing the energy-heavy templar, my Reavers can clean up.
On June 14 2010 03:52 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: the problem is finding targets of opportunity, and not dying instantly because the gas you wasted on DAs werent spent on crucial storms or archons.
its harder to MC a shuttle full of crap than you'd think
Try playing a cpu in PvP and letting it get 4-5 bases and then see how annoying the DAs' MC is. It is really why I play the cpu sometimes, because it gets really annoying to be trying to recall in their base and end up with them recalling in yours.
edit: a good player can keep their DA alive longer than the cpu, and the cpu can keep it alive pretty long sometimes.
On June 14 2010 03:52 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: the problem is finding targets of opportunity, and not dying instantly because the gas you wasted on DAs werent spent on crucial storms or archons.
its harder to MC a shuttle full of crap than you'd think
Try playing a cpu in PvP and letting it get 4-5 bases and then see how annoying the DAs' MC is. It is really why I play the cpu sometimes, because it gets really annoying to be trying to recall in their base and end up with them recalling in yours.
edit: a good player can keep their DA alive longer than the cpu, and the cpu can keep it alive pretty long sometimes.
but recalls arent effective in multiplayer pvp at all. the gas cost basically means you just wasted 4-5 storms. and if the arbiter tech gets scouted, its the simple matter of making a single DA to feedback the incoming arbiter. the cloaking field isnt effective either, since there are usually observers to help fight dts anyways.
and basically all you're saying is that you need better multitasking. it really isnt very hard to stop a recall. and if you need a recall to break a computer, you're doing something wrong.
On June 14 2010 03:52 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: the problem is finding targets of opportunity, and not dying instantly because the gas you wasted on DAs werent spent on crucial storms or archons.
its harder to MC a shuttle full of crap than you'd think
Try playing a cpu in PvP and letting it get 4-5 bases and then see how annoying the DAs' MC is. It is really why I play the cpu sometimes, because it gets really annoying to be trying to recall in their base and end up with them recalling in yours.
edit: a good player can keep their DA alive longer than the cpu, and the cpu can keep it alive pretty long sometimes.
but recalls arent effective in multiplayer pvp at all. the gas cost basically means you just wasted 4-5 storms. and if the arbiter tech gets scouted, its the simple matter of making a single DA to feedback the incoming arbiter. the cloaking field isnt effective either, since there are usually observers to help fight dts anyways.
and basically all you're saying is that you need better multitasking. it really isnt very hard to stop a recall. and if you need a recall to break a computer, you're doing something wrong.
It was just an example. I don't use arbiters, I use archons and carriers (either mass archon/zeal or mass carrier/ wtf other units I have resources for) in PvP late game.
On June 14 2010 03:52 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: the problem is finding targets of opportunity, and not dying instantly because the gas you wasted on DAs werent spent on crucial storms or archons.
its harder to MC a shuttle full of crap than you'd think
Try playing a cpu in PvP and letting it get 4-5 bases and then see how annoying the DAs' MC is. It is really why I play the cpu sometimes, because it gets really annoying to be trying to recall in their base and end up with them recalling in yours.
edit: a good player can keep their DA alive longer than the cpu, and the cpu can keep it alive pretty long sometimes.
but recalls arent effective in multiplayer pvp at all. the gas cost basically means you just wasted 4-5 storms. and if the arbiter tech gets scouted, its the simple matter of making a single DA to feedback the incoming arbiter. the cloaking field isnt effective either, since there are usually observers to help fight dts anyways.
and basically all you're saying is that you need better multitasking. it really isnt very hard to stop a recall. and if you need a recall to break a computer, you're doing something wrong.
It was just an example. I don't use arbiters, I use archons and carriers (either mass archon/zeal or mass carrier/ wtf other units I have resources for) in PvP late game.
Carriers? Are those even viable PvP at all? Seems like there are a bunch of options against them, whether its stasis, storms, and, I think; MC and scouts are also cost effective against carriers.
I just can't see carriers are being that indtimidating PvP, unless you just get suprised and 6 or more come out of nowhere.
On June 14 2010 03:52 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: the problem is finding targets of opportunity, and not dying instantly because the gas you wasted on DAs werent spent on crucial storms or archons.
its harder to MC a shuttle full of crap than you'd think
Try playing a cpu in PvP and letting it get 4-5 bases and then see how annoying the DAs' MC is. It is really why I play the cpu sometimes, because it gets really annoying to be trying to recall in their base and end up with them recalling in yours.
edit: a good player can keep their DA alive longer than the cpu, and the cpu can keep it alive pretty long sometimes.
but recalls arent effective in multiplayer pvp at all. the gas cost basically means you just wasted 4-5 storms. and if the arbiter tech gets scouted, its the simple matter of making a single DA to feedback the incoming arbiter. the cloaking field isnt effective either, since there are usually observers to help fight dts anyways.
and basically all you're saying is that you need better multitasking. it really isnt very hard to stop a recall. and if you need a recall to break a computer, you're doing something wrong.
It was just an example. I don't use arbiters, I use archons and carriers (either mass archon/zeal or mass carrier/ wtf other units I have resources for) in PvP late game.
Carriers? Are those even viable PvP at all? Seems like there are a bunch of options against them, whether its stasis, storms, and, I think; MC and scouts are also cost effective against carriers.
I just can't see carriers are being that indtimidating PvP, unless you just get suprised and 6 or more come out of nowhere.
let me introduce you to my favorite PvP of all time:
It's actually really not a bad strategy imo. You open with a dt rush. If it works, you win, good job. If he gets an observer, keep your 2 dark templars alive and do your normal transition.
But why not also just morph the 2 dark templars into a DA? Against good players, the dark templars don't have much use once they have observers out (since most good players would be wary of DT drops and DT sneak-ins). If your opponent goes reaver tech, you can MC the reaver/shuttle+reaver. If he goes HT tech, you have a DA to feedback with, or you can MC one of their high templars for free psi storm research (maybe get extra energy upgrade as a bonus)
It probably has no place in a professional game... but up to, I would say, C level iccup, it has potential.
Carriers are viable in PvP if the map is convenient for them, because Protoss doesn't have any clean counters. Mind Control works great, but that's a 150 mana spell on an expensive unit. Scouts are OK, but require almost as many resources committed as the Carriers to counter them. Dragoons don't have the range, unless there's too much open space for carriers to be effective in the first place, and Psionic Storm is painful but expensive and somewhat limited.
However, on most maps you will either die while teching Carriers, or be stuck with one base and unable to match your opponent's economy. I'm pretty sure Carriers are only viable in PvP on island maps, very-long-ground-but-short-air-rush-distance maps, or maps with backyard expansions.
On June 14 2010 04:53 blabber wrote: It's actually really not a bad strategy imo. You open with a dt rush. If it works, you win, good job. If he gets an observer, keep your 2 dark templars alive and do your normal transition.
But why not also just morph the 2 dark templars into a DA? Against good players, the dark templars don't have much use once they have observers out (since most good players would be wary of DT drops and DT sneak-ins). If your opponent goes reaver tech, you can MC the reaver/shuttle+reaver. If he goes HT tech, you have a DA to feedback with, or you can MC one of their high templars for free psi storm research (maybe get extra energy upgrade as a bonus)
It probably has no place in a professional game... but up to, I would say, C level iccup, it has potential.
Like you said if the DT's get there and there are observers, then there definately is a point in making them into a DA. Maelstrom, while seemingly weak, can really disrupt a zealot charge. Having your Zealots be able to take out half of their zealot's health before they can finally retreat or something is absolutely huge. Also, if they went observer first they probably want to get more Reavers since they only need one more building, so at that point a mind control of a slow/shuttle that lost it's momentum shuttle can really piss them off (they either kill it, which is probably one wave of goon shots wasted, or you get a pretty reaver and potentially save yourself other upgrades that they might have gotten).
my brother has played 5 games on Blood Bath(b.net btw) and his opponent was teching to them to and it was a bo5 they had agreed to and they both teched to it at around the same time and had an awesome micro-intensive game where his opponent actually got an arbiter to cloak his carriers and stasis his opponent's carriers. It was a long time ago(like 1.14 I think) so they are both better than they were before but it was still a cool game and showed that any type of game can be played on Blood Bath. It also showed that carriers are always an effective way to create a great game.
On June 14 2010 06:39 Severedevil wrote: Carriers are viable in PvP if the map is convenient for them, because Protoss doesn't have any clean counters. Mind Control works great, but that's a 150 mana spell on an expensive unit. Scouts are OK, but require almost as many resources committed as the Carriers to counter them. Dragoons don't have the range, unless there's too much open space for carriers to be effective in the first place, and Psionic Storm is painful but expensive and somewhat limited.
However, on most maps you will either die while teching Carriers, or be stuck with one base and unable to match your opponent's economy. I'm pretty sure Carriers are only viable in PvP on island maps, very-long-ground-but-short-air-rush-distance maps, or maps with backyard expansions.
even on island-esque maps it is hard to win with
Scouts work because they cost less (half the amount of gas), build faster, and use up less food
haha dark archons are pretty awesome. i think i actually used a dark templar opening -> expand with cannons/speed zealots + mind control shuttle (reavers are definitely a bonus) and push out as soon as 1+ finishes. it obviously doesn't work versus good players though but up to a certain level it's a lot of fun.
carriers are not used in pvp besides a few special circumstances e.g. a stall game with mass cannons everywhere or some type of island map (non-existant in competitive gaming scene).
dark archons pvp.. maybe mind control if he has a speed shuttle and reavers. that would be worth it. stealing a templar or a zealot or a dragoon to get that units ability (storm or legs or range) would cost you more than to upgrade it yourself so its really rhetorical. maybe you could do a maelstorm timing attack or something like that. maybe go for a dt rush and follow it with a mind control / 4 gate goon all in where you mc a goon to get range on your goons. build 3 dts, morph 2 and pressure with the other one while following with mc and goons. gas might be too low to be possible though. idk
On June 14 2010 07:39 3FFA wrote: my brother has played 5 games on Blood Bath(b.net btw) and his opponent was teching to them to and it was a bo5 they had agreed to and they both teched to it at around the same time and had an awesome micro-intensive game where his opponent actually got an arbiter to cloak his carriers and stasis his opponent's carriers. It was a long time ago(like 1.14 I think) so they are both better than they were before but it was still a cool game and showed that any type of game can be played on Blood Bath. It also showed that carriers are always an effective way to create a great game.
User was warned for this post
Why was this post warned? lol nothing offensive here
On June 14 2010 07:39 3FFA wrote: my brother has played 5 games on Blood Bath(b.net btw) and his opponent was teching to them to and it was a bo5 they had agreed to and they both teched to it at around the same time and had an awesome micro-intensive game where his opponent actually got an arbiter to cloak his carriers and stasis his opponent's carriers. It was a long time ago(like 1.14 I think) so they are both better than they were before but it was still a cool game and showed that any type of game can be played on Blood Bath. It also showed that carriers are always an effective way to create a great game.
User was warned for this post
Why was this post warned? lol nothing offensive here
I am guessing its because it was off topic and arbiter carrier is a noob build that is not making a point.
EPT
