EPT[Q]ZvT - 2 hatch muta or 3 hatch muta? - Page 2
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
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Mauzel
United States421 Posts
Also worth note... some people have been going 12 pool-->2hatch muta to get super fast mutas and counter the bunker rush. However, this is really technical because you need to have great muta harass to make those extra couple of seconds worth it. It's also more "fragile" than the 2 hatch muta. | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2802 Posts
On January 23 2010 12:29 FortuneSyn wrote: i dont get why people dont 9 drone scout. i havent been bunker rushed in my last 100 games. As retarded as this may sound to some of you guys, this can't actually be more true. Thumbs up. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On January 23 2010 09:13 DefMatrixUltra wrote: The issue I was getting is the following: if you get bunker rushed with 2 hatch, you are likely to lose 'lots' of drones. This will set you back by a certain amount, like sending you back in time. You will lose just as many drones when doing 3 hatch (because obviously this happens before the builds form and there's no fundamental difference at that point in the game). However, if you recover from a bunker rush and go into 2 hatch, chances are your timing window (which is so important with 2 hatch) is dead. Going into 3 hatch play, however, softens this blow. Timing is not quite as critical with a 3 hatch since your objective is not necessarily to do damage before some upgrade finishes, it's only to offer up a significant risk to Terran if he tries something (switching tech, moving out with early mnm etc.). Being set back in your timing is a lot more forgiving if you just go 3 hatch. If you get delayed by 5-10 seconds, it's bad, but you can fly up to Terran's bases and keep him honest at the very least. You can waltz right in there, scout his line of turrets, and then leave, your job basically done. You can now get your third because your muta can very likely keep Terran in his base easily. So my point is, yes you are right that a 2 hatch and a 3 hatch are just as vulnerable to a bunker rush, but going into one build after a bunker rush is more dangerous than going into another build after bunker rush. Put more succinctly, 3 hatch absorbs damage more easily because of the nature of the build. That's completely wrong. If you get bunker rushed and lose some drones, you have to stick to 2 hatches for a while because you wouldnt be able to support your 3rd hatch... | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On January 23 2010 14:29 Mauzel wrote: 2 hatch play is actually weaker against mech than 3 hatch. The goliaths will be ready to nullify your harass, so 3 hatch is a bit better because your economy will simply be better. You also focus more on lots of units compared to versus bio so that extra early hatch helps. Of course, you can play catch up in economy and come out not too bad compared to a 3 hatch opening. Also worth note... some people have been going 12 pool-->2hatch muta to get super fast mutas and counter the bunker rush. However, this is really technical because you need to have great muta harass to make those extra couple of seconds worth it. It's also more "fragile" than the 2 hatch muta. Don't tell stuffs that you don't know. 2 hatch muta (acompanied with hydras) is really really good to deny terrans natural expo, and mech without natural expo is the weakest thing in the world  .+ Show Spoiler + Also 2 hatch muta (12 pool gas) is the only thing that rapes flash :}. | ||
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wut_wut3
United States221 Posts
9lord/scout 12pool 11gas 11hatch Tada safe opening is safe | ||
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UFO
582 Posts
On January 23 2010 15:41 EsX_Raptor wrote: As retarded as this may sound to some of you guys, this can't actually be more true. Thumbs up. Yes but .... Nonetheless what are u gonna do against 8 rax , you r gonna end up taking u r 8-10 drones , chasing 3 marines + scv at some point and loosing 6 at the very least . You can try to sunken up but your eco is fucked similarly. So you lose anyways even if you scout. If you don`t lose - its either because of map when its big or its because the terran fucked up and most often both. Anyways if you take into account the factor that most terrans do terribly fuck up with bunker rush - then 9 drone scout is really a good idea , especially on iccup and can get you very good results. What I wanna point out is that it doesn`t prevent you from losing to bunker rush. It isn`t like if you scout it and do the perfect follow up then you ll win, you win if you do perfect and terran fucks up. With perfect play from both sides - I assume that 8 rax wins against 12 hatch. The reason that isn`t obvious is because perfect or nearly perfect games very rarely happen, even at progaming. | ||
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UFO
582 Posts
On January 24 2010 01:52 wut_wut3 wrote: Just go 9lord/scout 12pool 11gas 11hatch Tada safe opening is safe good luck vs mech ? | ||
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UFO
582 Posts
I d assume - NOONE knows if 2 hat or 3 hat muta is simply better or if it is dependable on x factors like map or if it is equally good How would we know ? 1 single overlooked detail can change the game around completely. Right now , its only logical to assume that the game has many overlooked details and their discovery is rather slow. For now I would say that 2 hat muta 9 drone scout is better if you want iccup wins , muta micro succes is dependant on terran, yet almost no terran is able to perform with the flawless anti-muta harras skills. 9 drone scout can tell you if he mechs , if so you can go 3 hat muta if you prefer it vs mech ( tho personally I don`t, 2 hat hydra natural denial into macro works quite well on icc ) Ps sorry for triple post | ||
Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Both are definitely playable though. I'd HIGHLY recommend learning both. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
1. Calms build (12 pool-> Lair) 2. Korean 2 Hatch (3rd hatch after spire) 3. Foreign 2 Hatch (3rd hatch before spire) | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
3 hatch = pussy macro defensive bullshit id go 2 hatch | ||
Arrian
United States889 Posts
On January 24 2010 07:29 lazz wrote: 2 hatch = badass 3 hatch = pussy macro defensive bullshit id go 2 hatch what a persuasive argument. there are clear drawbacks to 2 hatch muta, most notably its lack of economy. the biggest drawback to 3 hatch muta is that it's fairly figured out, but its an extremely strong build all around. pick the build based on your strengths. if you're strong and confident in your micro, 2 hatch muta can be very effective, but do NOT go 2 hatch if your micro is bad. if you lose even 2 of your first mutalisks, it can be gg. 3 hatch muta can take more blows than 2 hatch for certain, but the mutalisks in 3 hatch are only meant to slow the terran down so you can build a stronger economy, the mutalisks in 2 hatch are the beginning and middle of the strategy and if you execute well, the end. | ||
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danbel1005
United States1319 Posts
3 Hatch is more macro oriented (mid-late game) | ||
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WuzzupPeeps
130 Posts
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On January 23 2010 15:44 ProoM wrote: That's completely wrong. If you get bunker rushed and lose some drones, you have to stick to 2 hatches for a while because you wouldnt be able to support your 3rd hatch... It's not the existence of the hatchery that I was getting at. 2-Hatch play is basically a timing attack: you attack before marines have range. You force Terran to be 'behind' where he would 'normally' be by getting earlier Turrets etc. 3-Hatch play is not a timing attack: you pressure the Terran while he builds up and try to keep him from leaving his base so that you can secure a third. The timing attack is HIS, not yours. He needs to attack you before you get defilers or before you get lurkers. By harassing him, you can delay this. Against bunker rush: 2-Hatch: if you go for this timing attack, Terran could be ahead of you, especially if he did lots of damage (to your drones) and forced you to build more lings than you needed. 3-Hatch: you are not going for a timing attack. If you get to Terran's base 'late' it just means that you have put less pressure on him than you had planned. His push will likely come out earlier, and you will have to field a larger army than you hoped to defend your third/fourth. Obviously in either case, it's possible for the bunker rush to do so much damage that you lose. But it just seems unwise to go for a timing attack after taking bunker rush damage. Hopefully that's clear. There are more important topics worth discussing in this thread than bunker rushes. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On January 24 2010 13:05 DefMatrixUltra wrote: It's not the existence of the hatchery that I was getting at. 2-Hatch play is basically a timing attack: you attack before marines have range. You force Terran to be 'behind' where he would 'normally' be by getting earlier Turrets etc. 3-Hatch play is not a timing attack: you pressure the Terran while he builds up and try to keep him from leaving his base so that you can secure a third. The timing attack is HIS, not yours. He needs to attack you before you get defilers or before you get lurkers. By harassing him, you can delay this. Against bunker rush: 2-Hatch: if you go for this timing attack, Terran could be ahead of you, especially if he did lots of damage (to your drones) and forced you to build more lings than you needed. 3-Hatch: you are not going for a timing attack. If you get to Terran's base 'late' it just means that you have put less pressure on him than you had planned. His push will likely come out earlier, and you will have to field a larger army than you hoped to defend your third/fourth. Obviously in either case, it's possible for the bunker rush to do so much damage that you lose. But it just seems unwise to go for a timing attack after taking bunker rush damage. Hopefully that's clear. There are more important topics worth discussing in this thread than bunker rushes. You'd also have to mention that this only applies against 1 rax fe into 3 tanks+1vessel build :}. If 8 rax is followed by a 2nd rax + acad, throwing that 3rd hatch might cost you the game, as you wont be able to afford sunks :}. | ||
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ganil
253 Posts
At least at iccup D level. | ||
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