EPT[Q]ZvT - 2 hatch muta or 3 hatch muta?
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ajmer
Poland27 Posts
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
Koreans go more 2 hat, foreigners go more 3 hat. | ||
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
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Papvin
Denmark610 Posts
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leejas
United States440 Posts
2hatch if you're looking to practice more aggressive style. | ||
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hempLine
Canada63 Posts
The reason why people will go 3hatch muta vs ex: 1raxfe is that if your 2hatch muta does not do good damage then you will be behind. Both are viable builds and you use them in certain situations. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
The truth is that 3 hatch play is easier for both the Terran and the Zerg. It takes some pressure off both of you, allows both of you to be a bit more 'adaptable' and allows both players to be less fragile. If you are really good (good macro, good muta micro, good timing), then you can play 2 hatch and it will be a strong play. But if you're learning the matchup, I'd say go for 3 hatch. ---- A little aside, I feel that 3 hatch play might make a comeback since so many Zerg are getting their 2 hatch play stomped (the Terran have figured out the timings, numbers, and so on - so it's not a 'surprise' ). Neither play is strictly better, but I feel that being unpredictable in using both of them, and trying to deny scouting and so on is gonna play a bigger part in the 'metagame'. | ||
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mysticism
Canada124 Posts
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Try to focus on getting to lategame and working on your mechanics. | ||
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ajmer
Poland27 Posts
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
3 hatch is a lot more forgiving though. Both totally viable in todays environment, but I do want to stress how mechanically demanding 2 hatch is if you're a slow player. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
On January 23 2010 06:48 ajmer wrote: Okay, thank you all, I think I'll stick to 3 hatch ^^ so maybe just to make it clear, I'll ask about ZvP too: is the standard build orded 3 hatch spire into 5 base hydra, explained in the Liquipedia? It's the most common, but obviously there are alot of other equally viable openings in ZvP. So if by standard you mean most commonly done then yeah, but don't think that that means you can't open lurker or mutalisk. | ||
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
On January 23 2010 05:43 hempLine wrote: what? you're describing the 2 hatch muta all-in build, which is different from standard. just contain the T, harass a bit, grab your third when mutas pop, get lurkers, go to hive, profit. earlier mutalisks doesn't mean all-in. and fyi i'm pretty sure there's a 3 hatch muta all-in timing attack too...2hatch muta is more of a win build, means your going 2hatch muta to win the game with your muta's right then and there (or at least do some big damage), some people even consider it close to being a cheese, 3 hatch muta is to contain the T in his base while your teching up to lurker/defiler. On January 23 2010 05:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote: because 3 hatch muta is so much better at defending/countering against bunker rushes... you know with its lack of ling speed upgrade and all. the third hatch doesn't finish fast enough for it to help. besides, if something goes wrong with your timing early on, your 3 hatch is gonna hit a wall vs. a good Terran player too.The issue with 2 hatch play is that it's very fragile. Flash is showing us this by bunker rushing every game (and doing really well with it). If something goes wrong with your plan early on, your 2 hatch will likely be much weaker. If something goes wrong with your timing early on, your 2 hatch is gonna hit a wall vs. a good Terran player. On January 23 2010 06:49 Piy wrote: 2 hatch muta (hydra den first) handles mech quite well and you can just expand a bunch after that while 2 port just dies against it (turns out wraiths are terrible units, take a long to build, are gas-intensive, and can't defend a natural forcing terran to go off of 1 base for a while). also there are many fairly common builds tailored specifically to counter 3 hatch muta (fantasy, ayumi, sparks maybe, 2 port wraith does well, 2 fact vult runby is harder to deal with) while those countering 2 hatch muta are much rarer (maybe some weird really early sparks). and some people still have difficulty adjusting to the 2 hatch muta timing so that's just another added bonus.You can deal with mech and 2 port pretty well, a bit better than 3 hatch imo, and you can obviously deal with everything else as well. don't overlook 2 hatch muta. it is pure awesomeness. | ||
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
On January 23 2010 06:48 ajmer wrote: it's here. yeah that is pretty much the standard for now. you can learn the all-in builds (3 hatch ling, 2 hatch hydra bust, 2 hatch muta sort of) and 3 hatch muta to mix it up but that's probably the best place to start for zvp.Okay, thank you all, I think I'll stick to 3 hatch ^^ so maybe just to make it clear, I'll ask about ZvP too: is the standard build orded 3 hatch spire into 5 base hydra, explained in the Liquipedia? | ||
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Jakalo
Latvia2350 Posts
On January 23 2010 06:49 Piy wrote: 2 hatch is probably safer if you have good control and mechanics. You can deal with mech and 2 port pretty well, a bit better than 3 hatch imo, and you can obviously deal with everything else as well. 3 hatch is a lot more forgiving though. Both totally viable in todays environment, but I do want to stress how mechanically demanding 2 hatch is if you're a slow player. Also 2 hatch muta is not viable if there is lag, which is factor on Iccup. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
Can you multitask? do you have all ur hatches hotkeyed and can you cycle them in about a second an a half? then go 2hatch its super fun!!! | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
once u got korean muta control u learn 2hatch muta into 3base lurker switch standard play and 3hatch u play if u wanna lose vs good terrans  | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On January 23 2010 07:09 redtooth wrote: as a person who's been using 2 hatch builds almost exclusively lately, i have to point out a lot of flaws in this thread. because 3 hatch muta is so much better at defending/countering against bunker rushes... you know with its lack of ling speed upgrade and all. the third hatch doesn't finish fast enough for it to help. besides, if something goes wrong with your timing early on, your 3 hatch is gonna hit a wall vs. a good Terran player too. The issue I was getting is the following: if you get bunker rushed with 2 hatch, you are likely to lose 'lots' of drones. This will set you back by a certain amount, like sending you back in time. You will lose just as many drones when doing 3 hatch (because obviously this happens before the builds form and there's no fundamental difference at that point in the game). However, if you recover from a bunker rush and go into 2 hatch, chances are your timing window (which is so important with 2 hatch) is dead. Going into 3 hatch play, however, softens this blow. Timing is not quite as critical with a 3 hatch since your objective is not necessarily to do damage before some upgrade finishes, it's only to offer up a significant risk to Terran if he tries something (switching tech, moving out with early mnm etc.). Being set back in your timing is a lot more forgiving if you just go 3 hatch. If you get delayed by 5-10 seconds, it's bad, but you can fly up to Terran's bases and keep him honest at the very least. You can waltz right in there, scout his line of turrets, and then leave, your job basically done. You can now get your third because your muta can very likely keep Terran in his base easily. So my point is, yes you are right that a 2 hatch and a 3 hatch are just as vulnerable to a bunker rush, but going into one build after a bunker rush is more dangerous than going into another build after bunker rush. Put more succinctly, 3 hatch absorbs damage more easily because of the nature of the build. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
Although you have to do even more damage when your mutalisk do come out. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
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Mauzel
United States421 Posts
Also worth note... some people have been going 12 pool-->2hatch muta to get super fast mutas and counter the bunker rush. However, this is really technical because you need to have great muta harass to make those extra couple of seconds worth it. It's also more "fragile" than the 2 hatch muta. | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2801 Posts
On January 23 2010 12:29 FortuneSyn wrote: i dont get why people dont 9 drone scout. i havent been bunker rushed in my last 100 games. As retarded as this may sound to some of you guys, this can't actually be more true. Thumbs up. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On January 23 2010 09:13 DefMatrixUltra wrote: The issue I was getting is the following: if you get bunker rushed with 2 hatch, you are likely to lose 'lots' of drones. This will set you back by a certain amount, like sending you back in time. You will lose just as many drones when doing 3 hatch (because obviously this happens before the builds form and there's no fundamental difference at that point in the game). However, if you recover from a bunker rush and go into 2 hatch, chances are your timing window (which is so important with 2 hatch) is dead. Going into 3 hatch play, however, softens this blow. Timing is not quite as critical with a 3 hatch since your objective is not necessarily to do damage before some upgrade finishes, it's only to offer up a significant risk to Terran if he tries something (switching tech, moving out with early mnm etc.). Being set back in your timing is a lot more forgiving if you just go 3 hatch. If you get delayed by 5-10 seconds, it's bad, but you can fly up to Terran's bases and keep him honest at the very least. You can waltz right in there, scout his line of turrets, and then leave, your job basically done. You can now get your third because your muta can very likely keep Terran in his base easily. So my point is, yes you are right that a 2 hatch and a 3 hatch are just as vulnerable to a bunker rush, but going into one build after a bunker rush is more dangerous than going into another build after bunker rush. Put more succinctly, 3 hatch absorbs damage more easily because of the nature of the build. That's completely wrong. If you get bunker rushed and lose some drones, you have to stick to 2 hatches for a while because you wouldnt be able to support your 3rd hatch... | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On January 23 2010 14:29 Mauzel wrote: 2 hatch play is actually weaker against mech than 3 hatch. The goliaths will be ready to nullify your harass, so 3 hatch is a bit better because your economy will simply be better. You also focus more on lots of units compared to versus bio so that extra early hatch helps. Of course, you can play catch up in economy and come out not too bad compared to a 3 hatch opening. Also worth note... some people have been going 12 pool-->2hatch muta to get super fast mutas and counter the bunker rush. However, this is really technical because you need to have great muta harass to make those extra couple of seconds worth it. It's also more "fragile" than the 2 hatch muta. Don't tell stuffs that you don't know. 2 hatch muta (acompanied with hydras) is really really good to deny terrans natural expo, and mech without natural expo is the weakest thing in the world  .+ Show Spoiler + Also 2 hatch muta (12 pool gas) is the only thing that rapes flash :}. | ||
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wut_wut3
United States221 Posts
9lord/scout 12pool 11gas 11hatch Tada safe opening is safe | ||
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UFO
582 Posts
On January 23 2010 15:41 EsX_Raptor wrote: As retarded as this may sound to some of you guys, this can't actually be more true. Thumbs up. Yes but .... Nonetheless what are u gonna do against 8 rax , you r gonna end up taking u r 8-10 drones , chasing 3 marines + scv at some point and loosing 6 at the very least . You can try to sunken up but your eco is fucked similarly. So you lose anyways even if you scout. If you don`t lose - its either because of map when its big or its because the terran fucked up and most often both. Anyways if you take into account the factor that most terrans do terribly fuck up with bunker rush - then 9 drone scout is really a good idea , especially on iccup and can get you very good results. What I wanna point out is that it doesn`t prevent you from losing to bunker rush. It isn`t like if you scout it and do the perfect follow up then you ll win, you win if you do perfect and terran fucks up. With perfect play from both sides - I assume that 8 rax wins against 12 hatch. The reason that isn`t obvious is because perfect or nearly perfect games very rarely happen, even at progaming. | ||
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UFO
582 Posts
On January 24 2010 01:52 wut_wut3 wrote: Just go 9lord/scout 12pool 11gas 11hatch Tada safe opening is safe good luck vs mech ? | ||
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UFO
582 Posts
I d assume - NOONE knows if 2 hat or 3 hat muta is simply better or if it is dependable on x factors like map or if it is equally good How would we know ? 1 single overlooked detail can change the game around completely. Right now , its only logical to assume that the game has many overlooked details and their discovery is rather slow. For now I would say that 2 hat muta 9 drone scout is better if you want iccup wins , muta micro succes is dependant on terran, yet almost no terran is able to perform with the flawless anti-muta harras skills. 9 drone scout can tell you if he mechs , if so you can go 3 hat muta if you prefer it vs mech ( tho personally I don`t, 2 hat hydra natural denial into macro works quite well on icc ) Ps sorry for triple post | ||
Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Both are definitely playable though. I'd HIGHLY recommend learning both. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
1. Calms build (12 pool-> Lair) 2. Korean 2 Hatch (3rd hatch after spire) 3. Foreign 2 Hatch (3rd hatch before spire) | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
3 hatch = pussy macro defensive bullshit id go 2 hatch | ||
Arrian
United States889 Posts
On January 24 2010 07:29 lazz wrote: 2 hatch = badass 3 hatch = pussy macro defensive bullshit id go 2 hatch what a persuasive argument. there are clear drawbacks to 2 hatch muta, most notably its lack of economy. the biggest drawback to 3 hatch muta is that it's fairly figured out, but its an extremely strong build all around. pick the build based on your strengths. if you're strong and confident in your micro, 2 hatch muta can be very effective, but do NOT go 2 hatch if your micro is bad. if you lose even 2 of your first mutalisks, it can be gg. 3 hatch muta can take more blows than 2 hatch for certain, but the mutalisks in 3 hatch are only meant to slow the terran down so you can build a stronger economy, the mutalisks in 2 hatch are the beginning and middle of the strategy and if you execute well, the end. | ||
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danbel1005
United States1319 Posts
3 Hatch is more macro oriented (mid-late game) | ||
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WuzzupPeeps
130 Posts
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On January 23 2010 15:44 ProoM wrote: That's completely wrong. If you get bunker rushed and lose some drones, you have to stick to 2 hatches for a while because you wouldnt be able to support your 3rd hatch... It's not the existence of the hatchery that I was getting at. 2-Hatch play is basically a timing attack: you attack before marines have range. You force Terran to be 'behind' where he would 'normally' be by getting earlier Turrets etc. 3-Hatch play is not a timing attack: you pressure the Terran while he builds up and try to keep him from leaving his base so that you can secure a third. The timing attack is HIS, not yours. He needs to attack you before you get defilers or before you get lurkers. By harassing him, you can delay this. Against bunker rush: 2-Hatch: if you go for this timing attack, Terran could be ahead of you, especially if he did lots of damage (to your drones) and forced you to build more lings than you needed. 3-Hatch: you are not going for a timing attack. If you get to Terran's base 'late' it just means that you have put less pressure on him than you had planned. His push will likely come out earlier, and you will have to field a larger army than you hoped to defend your third/fourth. Obviously in either case, it's possible for the bunker rush to do so much damage that you lose. But it just seems unwise to go for a timing attack after taking bunker rush damage. Hopefully that's clear. There are more important topics worth discussing in this thread than bunker rushes. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On January 24 2010 13:05 DefMatrixUltra wrote: It's not the existence of the hatchery that I was getting at. 2-Hatch play is basically a timing attack: you attack before marines have range. You force Terran to be 'behind' where he would 'normally' be by getting earlier Turrets etc. 3-Hatch play is not a timing attack: you pressure the Terran while he builds up and try to keep him from leaving his base so that you can secure a third. The timing attack is HIS, not yours. He needs to attack you before you get defilers or before you get lurkers. By harassing him, you can delay this. Against bunker rush: 2-Hatch: if you go for this timing attack, Terran could be ahead of you, especially if he did lots of damage (to your drones) and forced you to build more lings than you needed. 3-Hatch: you are not going for a timing attack. If you get to Terran's base 'late' it just means that you have put less pressure on him than you had planned. His push will likely come out earlier, and you will have to field a larger army than you hoped to defend your third/fourth. Obviously in either case, it's possible for the bunker rush to do so much damage that you lose. But it just seems unwise to go for a timing attack after taking bunker rush damage. Hopefully that's clear. There are more important topics worth discussing in this thread than bunker rushes. You'd also have to mention that this only applies against 1 rax fe into 3 tanks+1vessel build :}. If 8 rax is followed by a 2nd rax + acad, throwing that 3rd hatch might cost you the game, as you wont be able to afford sunks :}. | ||
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ganil
253 Posts
At least at iccup D level. | ||
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ruXxar
Norway5669 Posts
Also, because 2hatch games will be shorter(usually) you get more games/time, which means faster improving. | ||
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wut_wut3
United States221 Posts
use scouting drone to gas steal if you dont want your opponent to go mech not that hard to do | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On January 25 2010 03:22 ruXxar wrote: Another way to view it is that 2 hatch is gonna put you to the ultimate test. Micro/macro has to be almost perfect for you to pull off, so it's actually gonna help you improve that much faster. Also, because 2hatch games will be shorter(usually) you get more games/time, which means faster improving. :O, so if I 4 pool every game, games will be insanely short, so I will be a pro after a week? | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
On January 24 2010 06:47 MorroW wrote: dont forget 4. Octzerg 2 Hatch (second hatch in terrans natural base) Wooot? Link to the replay please, it seems I missed something big. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
2 Hatch is a build you use WHEN YOU EXPECT M/M. It allows you to get to lair with enough for 6 mutas faster than the 3 hatch timing and then pump straight mutalisk and overlord while teching lurkers and harassing everything. You spawn 6-8 lurkers and use your group and a half of mutalisks to devastate the T's army and sometimes natural. As you are doing this, you take your third expo and drop 2-3 evo chambers and transition to a more macro-oriented style. 3 Hatch is much stronger against anything that isn't m/m. Expecting vulture harass to wraith harass to vulture drop to gol/tank? 3 hatch. The difference is that your tech is later, but your mass is bigger, even though your unit composition isn't as pure. 3 hatch allows you to improve your economy while you harass, whereas 2 hatch has to build straight units and expand after they have lurkers. You can safely expand first with 3 hatch and get lurkers later. If you're playing against mech, you don't need many mutalisks, just enough to force goliaths--but if they're pumping those anyway, just make 1-1 or 2-2 hydras and flank hard. Your transition to lategame from 3 hatch is usually stronger and a little later. 2 hatch gets a hive before it transitions to lategame, but 3 hatch is already in lategame before it gets a hive. With both of the builds your goal is the same--5 bases with gas and hive tech--but strangely, 2 hatch has relatively more gas to work with. | ||
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
On January 24 2010 03:18 UFO wrote: Yes but .... Nonetheless what are u gonna do against 8 rax , you r gonna end up taking u r 8-10 drones , chasing 3 marines + scv at some point and loosing 6 at the very least . You can try to sunken up but your eco is fucked similarly. So you lose anyways even if you scout. If you don`t lose - its either because of map when its big or its because the terran fucked up and most often both. Anyways if you take into account the factor that most terrans do terribly fuck up with bunker rush - then 9 drone scout is really a good idea , especially on iccup and can get you very good results. What I wanna point out is that it doesn`t prevent you from losing to bunker rush. It isn`t like if you scout it and do the perfect follow up then you ll win, you win if you do perfect and terran fucks up. With perfect play from both sides - I assume that 8 rax wins against 12 hatch. The reason that isn`t obvious is because perfect or nearly perfect games very rarely happen, even at progaming. Your micro must suck because even against an 8 Rax when he bunker rushes, unless he wants to miss his timing window, the opponent will send his first rine and two scvs... You are a weird theory crafter and not very smart indeed. | ||
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CommanderFluffy
Taiwan1059 Posts
On January 25 2010 04:44 ProoM wrote: :O, so if I 4 pool every game, games will be insanely short, so I will be a pro after a week? No. Why would you even post this crap? I like to play 2 hatch muta in close positions, say 12 o'clock vs 3 o'clock T (edit: on python). Opening pool first is also pretty awesome because it's easier to fight off T bunker rushes at those close positions too. But as other people have said before, you really have to be able to deal damage, without losing mutas, and while macroing. I usually follow up with either: drones and a third if i dont feel like i'm dealing enough damage, bunch of speedlings to just finish game, straight up muta if i feel confident, guards if i've slowed T tech long enough. All in all, i enjoy this build much more because it's just so much more aggressive. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On January 25 2010 10:32 CommanderFluffy wrote: No. Why would you even post this crap? I like to play 2 hatch muta in close positions, say 12 o'clock vs 3 o'clock T (edit: on python). Opening pool first is also pretty awesome because it's easier to fight off T bunker rushes at those close positions too. But as other people have said before, you really have to be able to deal damage, without losing mutas, and while macroing. I usually follow up with either: drones and a third if i dont feel like i'm dealing enough damage, bunch of speedlings to just finish game, straight up muta if i feel confident, guards if i've slowed T tech long enough. All in all, i enjoy this build much more because it's just so much more aggressive. Just to point out, though, pool first is generally not considered 2 hatch muta. We're talking about 12 hatch. | ||
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wut_wut3
United States221 Posts
On January 25 2010 10:58 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Just to point out, though, pool first is generally not considered 2 hatch muta. We're talking about 12 hatch. Zeros 2 hatch muta build get pool 1st | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
I'd say that 3 Hatch play is more suited to learning with mistakes. So you can sort of make progress, and the better you do the timings, the better you plan your build out, the fewer overlords you miss etc., the better your play becomes and you slowly instill some sense of macro and timing into your muscles. However, another way to look at this is what some have hinted at. If you go with 2 Hatch play, you will probably get stomped pretty bad even by people a bit worse than you UNTIL you get a critical combination of a) good muta micro and use and b) simultaneous micro with macro and build execution. This way is interesting because you will just get smacked hard by Terran until you get BOTH reasonable muta micro and good multi-tasking in terms of build management. Both seem to me valid ways to improve. | ||
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0mgVitaminE
United States1278 Posts
On January 25 2010 03:22 ruXxar wrote: Another way to view it is that 2 hatch is gonna put you to the ultimate test. Micro/macro has to be almost perfect for you to pull off, so it's actually gonna help you improve that much faster. Also, because 2hatch games will be shorter(usually) you get more games/time, which means faster improving. Exactly what I was thinking, and quick hive will help me with defiler control. Hope it pays off quick, although most of my learning has shown otherwise :D | ||
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0mgVitaminE
United States1278 Posts
On January 25 2010 03:22 ruXxar wrote: Another way to view it is that 2 hatch is gonna put you to the ultimate test. Micro/macro has to be almost perfect for you to pull off, so it's actually gonna help you improve that much faster. Also, because 2hatch games will be shorter(usually) you get more games/time, which means faster improving. Exactly what I was thinking, and quick hive will help me with defiler control. Hope it pays off quick, although most of my learning has shown otherwise :D | ||
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torm3ntin
Brazil2534 Posts
On January 23 2010 05:46 DefMatrixUltra wrote: A little aside, I feel that 3 hatch play might make a comeback since so many Zerg are getting their 2 hatch play stomped (the Terran have figured out the timings, numbers, and so on - so it's not a 'surprise' ). Neither play is strictly better, but I feel that being unpredictable in using both of them, and trying to deny scouting and so on is gonna play a bigger part in the 'metagame'. i felt that lately...i'm so pissed i'm being cheesed by every terran i play! i'm afraid of even doing 12 pool because they are all rushing me to hell | ||
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YejinYejin
United States1053 Posts
Isn't Fantasy build supposed to hit with vultures in the Z's main before 3hatch muta but after 2hatch? At least liquipedia says that 2hatch muta is a hard counter to fantasy build. I've noticed that, when I play Z's who get a third hatch, I can drop vultures when the spire is still morphing, and score some drone/larvae kills. | ||
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